Ulster Protestants and the Goths at school…

Given the hammering that unionists (as opposed to unionism) routinely get on this site, I’m loathe to post this. But it’s really too good to miss. John Derbyshire, he of the NRO’s Corner, makes the inimitable

  • seabhac siulach

    I must say that is a very unfair comparison…for the Goths…!

    That is, Goths do eventually grow out of their ‘affliction’, unlike others who, eh, never grow up (to political maturity)

    BTW, he doesn’t mention Unionists at all, but ‘Ulster’ protestants…which technically is not the same thing…
    It is strange, I know, but I think protestants can also maybe sometimes perhaps be Irish nationalists…

  • Mick Fealty

    Guilty as charged. Will amend.

  • DK

    All the others have been on top once, but are no longer. The same cannot be said of Goths, at any stage – they were always outnumbered by New Romantics or Heavy Metallers or Ravers or whatever. The thing about goths is that they are persistant.

    Better to compare with the “Jocks” in the high school – dominant in the early days, but as time goes on they end up unemployable, drinkers in the pub basking in past glories.

  • qubol

    “international club of the peoples nobody likes”
    what a great idea – its just too funny. Maybe they could have one big massive international victims group and march up and down the land. Jeffrey Donaldson already got the ball rolling when he went over to columbia and we also have the NI Springbok club, so you never know.
    Unionists definitely have an image problem, they are always seen as a negative force, complaining about this or that, like some sort of hangover from the empire.

  • millwall

    No one likes us we don’t care ;P

  • Can anyone see this becoming an updated version of “The Breakfast Club” or am I just showing my age?

  • The Beach Tree

    Now Mick, which is the most offensive comparison? To be like a Serb, an Africaaner, an Ulster Protestant or a Goth.

    Who is the most insulted?

  • Jacko

    I’m deeply offended. There is no way that we Ulster Prods can be lumped in with Serbs, Goths and Afrikaners.
    We’re far more hateful than that.

  • Jacko

    As an afterthought, if I change my religion do I automatically become less hateful.

  • Overhere

    Well lets get all the sterotypes out of the way while we are at it:

    French=Arrogant
    English=Soccer Thug
    Scottish =drunks
    Welsh=stupid
    gay=camp

    I was born and reared in NI and had good Protestant neighbours and we helped each other out when ever needed. I live in London and again know NI Protestants and we get on well.

    my partnet is a Boer and we have lived together for 6 years now and I am learning Afrikaans so that when I go over to SA to visit Mynhardt’s parents I can talk in their native tongue.

    Does any one outside SA actually look at what has been going on in SA since “freedom” when the coloureds were told that they would have everything. Well it has not quite worked out like that because once power was transfered then corruption took holdd as in all the other ex colonial countries.

    The infrastructure has been allowed to disintegrate and now there are powercut in the major cities. Instead of spending money on the infrastructure the government spend money on renaming Pretoria to Twsane, so go figure.

    Land redistrubition was started and now they are giving the land back because once transfered the new owners are letting it go to waste and running up debts, therefore harming the economy local and internatinal.

    Crime is horrendous and spiraling out of control and the government buries it’s head in the sand. I was insensed when I saw Desmond Tutu on BBC1 NI doing his reconciliation thing when stragely enough we never hear him critise his own government. A SA TV station was to show a programme on the president but was mysterously pulled because the presidents office did not like the content.

    Sorry but I check the SA news every day and get really frustrated when people whitter on about theose terrible Boers. walk in their shoes for a few miles and see what it is like. And for all those in NI who think they are having a hard time believe me it could be a lot worse.

    I am proud to be a NI republican but even prouder to be the partner of a Boer

  • qubol

    Overghere, An NI republican – thats a paradox isn’t it?

  • qubol

    perhaps Overhere is advocating a republican form of government for the UK. A modern day Cromwell, if you like.

  • Overhere

    Not really qubol, I am from NI and a Republican. Gerry Adams is from NI and is a Republican Ian Paisley is from NI and a unionist therefore a NI Unionist

    Shame that was all you thought to comment on in my post but then again just goes to show how navel gazing has become a fine art form in NI.

  • Overhere

    LOL pakman, would prefer an English Republic but without the Cromwell undertones !!

  • fair_deal

    This comes down to how a group gets stereotypes and the perpetuation of a stereotype despite changed circumstances.

    It is not just Serbs being brought to Hague for war crimes but they are commonly viewed as the aggressors and war criminals. The Serb state has been undergoing a transformation in the past 5 years too.

    The White south african community (Boers and English)operated a morally indefensible and discriminatory system. However, post-apartheid South Africa is not a nice place for most with corruption and crime and whites especially ie rural crime victimises both communities but white victims face a higher likelihood of murder and rape.

    The common view of Unionism is largely the Stormont era stereotype.

  • Dec

    The common view of Unionism is largely the Stormont era stereotype.

    I would dispute that as during the Stormont era nobody in the wider world took any heed of this place, least of all the British Government. Its only when the bombs went off and the bullets started flying that people took real notice. I would hazard a guess that this view of Ulster Protestants (not Unionism, FD) has been largely determined by the sort of antics the leader of the DUP has engaged in all his life: demagoguery, Bible thumping, snowball throwing, heckling of pontiffs, etc.

  • fair_deal

    Dec

    Stormont ended in 1972 well after the shooting and bombing had started.

  • Bemused

    Overhere – ‘coloured’s’ – huh?!?!?!?!?!

  • ncm

    I see your point overhere, those poor coloureds (sic) really need decent white people to look after them, because otherwise they’ll just waste their money and drive their country to rack and ruin. Kind of similair to the point of view expressed about the troublesome “paddies” over here.

  • qubol

    Overhere: “Shame that was all you thought to comment on in my post”

    well to be fair I kind of turned off after you said “the coloureds were told that they would have everything.” I wouldn’t call getting true equality and human rights ‘everything’. It was always going to be difficult for South Africa to make a smooth transition from the disaster of apartheid. The fact that problems still exist just show how big a mess the Boers and other colonists made of South Africa when they did have power.

  • eranu

    cant see what the link is amoung the groupings mentioned… hopefully it wont turn into one of those ‘catholics’ versus ‘protestants’ threads….
    goths were a bit before my time, but at school anyone who was a heavy metaler / grunge / wore alot of black, was usually a bit of a dick. seems to still be the case with the middle class teenagers that hang around the city hall in belfast …

    overhere – are there any sucessful / peaceful african states? all we seem to here about is when they descend into a mess. i heard about white SA farmers having to defend their farms in armed patrols recently.

  • DK

    From an outsiders point of view, I suspect little differentiation is made between the various sides in NI, and all Norn Ironers are despised along with the serbs, boers, etc. One lot for the stupid parades/discrimination and the other lot for bombing and killing. Oversimplistic yes, but I’m sure there are complexities in the boers and serbs that we are unaware of.

    Actually, I struggled to think of anyone after the Boers and Serbs and NI. Turkish cypriots maybe, or Jewish settlers?

  • DK

    I heard that Botswana and Mozambique were supposed to be quite good.

  • Overhere

    Ok ncm, bemused qubol so what am I supposed to call the population who are not white, and if I use the term white for those who are white is that also frowned upon. I am all for non sterotypes so instead of hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm help me out here !!

  • Dec

    ..all Norn Ironers are despised along with the serbs, boers, etc. One lot for the stupid parades/discrimination and the other lot for bombing and killing.

    A unique take on the complexities of the conflict, it has to be said.

  • Garibaldy

    Overhere,

    Glad to see someone still has respect for tradition, and is keeping up Irish nationalist support for the Boers.

    I would certainly think about walking a mile in their shoes. At least they have them. Unlike a lot of people in the shantytowns.

    But you do raise an important point – the ANC has sold the poor people of South Africa right down the river in the interests of the bourgeoisie, black and white. The ANC did the right thing adopting a conciliatory approach to avoid a civil war, but that’s no excuse for not building the homes, much less the electricity and water supplies that were promised.

  • Overhere

    qubol:The fact that problems still exist just show how big a mess the Boers and other colonists made of South Africa when they did have power

    I am going to need more than generalisations. I agree with fairdeal here the previous regime was wrong and good to have been dismantled unfortunately what has replaced it has not improved the lives of those who were promised it would.

  • ncm

    You call black people – black (or people of colour). And white people – White.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_examples_of_political_correctness#Race_and_ethnicity_related

  • NestorMakhno

    Interesting speech recently by Gary Lawrence at (I think) a Belfast City Council event on urban regeneration. He talked about Svetlana Boym’s book ‘The Future of Nostalgia’ in which she describes two different kinds of nostalgia: ‘restorative’ and ‘reflective’.

    ‘Restorative’ being the negative kind that wants us all to return to a comfortable (and no doubt mythical) period when things were simply hunk dory – so we end up with fantasies about a Greater Serbia, a white South Africa, a great wee Ulster and The Mission back in the charts.

    ‘Reflective’ nostalgia was more about putting the past in perspective but making sure to deal with the reality of change.

    Well worth checking out – may be online somewhere…

  • rafa benitez

    Ok ncm, bemused qubol so what am I supposed to call the population who are not white, and if I use the term white for those who are white is that also frowned upon. I am all for non sterotypes so instead of hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm help me out here !!

    How about Original Africans or just Africans, since the white are Afrikans. OR just black, since we are just white.

  • DK

    Dec said: “..all Norn Ironers are despised along with the serbs, boers, etc. One lot for the stupid parades/discrimination and the other lot for bombing and killing.

    A unique take on the complexities of the conflict, it has to be said.”

    But then forgot to read on to the next paragraph:

    Oversimplistic yes, but I’m sure there are complexities in the boers and serbs that we are unaware of.

    How about “Northern Ireland? They’re a bunch of nuts over there”

  • I quite like Serbs and I prefer Eastern Orthodix churches to Catholics ones and the bookie offices that pass for Protestant chapels. Next time you are passing a Serbian Orthdox Church, check out the staues out front. No St Cyrils or Nicks, only long dead generals.
    Perhaps the six counties could introduce that: remove all the idolatrous statues from Popish churches and replace them with contentious INLA/IRA statues.

  • Overhere

    glad that is sorted out now we can all live happly in PC land

  • qubol

    Overhere: “I am going to need more than generalisations.”
    well most people would probably accept that the crushing poverty (affecting just under 50% of the South African population) and the high levels of inequality (second highest in the world) are in no small part down to misrule by white south africans and their Apartheid policies. The fact that some poor Boers might now have to let their black maid go doesn’t cut it with me.

    Overhere: “The infrastructure has been allowed to disintegrate and now there are powercut in the major cities.”
    The infastructure hasn’t been allowed to disintegrate; its more like tax money has had to be distributed more evenly. Unlike before when all the money went into developing infrastructure in White areas.

  • Mike

    Terminology – surely in South Africa “coloured” is (or at least was) the term used for the mixed-race population?

    Whereas those who are of ‘native’ (for want of a better word) descent and not mixed race are (or were) known as black or African?

  • qubol

    Mike: surely in South Africa “coloured” is (or at least was) the term used for the mixed-race population?

    you’re right mike it was:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloured

  • merrie

    >Rafa: How about Original Africans or just Africans…

    Just Africans will probably have to do. I am not really clued up on South African history but I thought the original (South) Africans were the bushmen, then the whites came. Don’t know where the Zulus come in, but so far as I am aware the blacks who dominate South Africa today mostly moved in after the whites did.

    Also, didn’t the Zulus fight the bushmen?

    Correct me if I am wrong (I probably am!)

  • Dk

    Merrie,

    I think it’s more complex than that. There are 3 black groupings: the Bushmen, Bantu(?) and Zulu. Lots of fighting between the groups.
    Also 2 white groupings: English and Boer. Again, lots of fighting between the groups.
    There are also the mixed race groups and Indians. I don’t think they have done much fighting.

  • Jacko

    South Africa is in a complete mess. Violent crime has gone through the roof and the ruling ANC is almost totally corrupt.
    Those are irrefutable facts.
    To mention them is not to give a nod and a wink of support to what went before – how could anyone agree with that? – or make a racist generalisation about black people and their capacity to rule their own country.
    It is merely to state basic facts.

  • Overhere

    qubol:The fact that some poor Boers might now have to let their black maid go doesn’t cut it with me.

    I have to say qubol that is a bit of a cheap shot, but then again having your tendons cut so you cannot defend your 80 year old wife while she has her head staved in with a house brick. Only two of 2,0000 farmers and familes murdered, most of the time with nothing taken from the homes or farms apart from the transport later found abandoned. But then again they get what they deserve….right.

    Worth noting the United Nations is considering giving the Boers refugee status so it is not only me who thinks something is badly out of whak.

    As for being a Nationalist and a supporter of the Boers. Quite easy wrong is wrong when apartheid was up and running I was against that as well and marched with everyone else in London that does not mean I have to agree with everything that is happening now. Sometimes you just have to get out of the selfimposed ghetto to see things in a different light.

  • qubol

    Overhere: “Worth noting the United Nations is considering giving the Boers refugee status so it is not only me who thinks something is badly out of whak.”
    First I’ve heard of that – can you give us some more info? also, considering and doing are two completely different things.

    Overhere: “But then again they get what they deserve….right.
    not my views. remember you did ask how Boers have had a role in the current state of affairs. I’m certainly not trying to excuse the corruption in the ANC or their failure to properley tackle poverty but I have little sympathy for Boers and white South Africans in general. Whilst no-one is deserving of the atrocities commited against white SA farmers, the official redistribution of lands and wealth is completely justified.
    These very reasons are why people dislike the Afrikaners, Boers, Serbs and Unionists. When they had their chance they blew it and half the time they don’t even recogonise what they did wrong.

  • Dec

    DK

    I did read your entire post however ‘Oversimplistic’ doesn’t really begin to describe your identification of Nationalism/Catholicism with ‘Bombing and killing’ and Unionism/Protestantism with the somewhat less deadly ‘Parades/Discrimination’.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    qubol: “not my views. remember you did ask how Boers have had a role in the current state of affairs. I’m certainly not trying to excuse the corruption in the ANC or their failure to properley tackle poverty but I have little sympathy for Boers and white South Africans in general. Whilst no-one is deserving of the atrocities commited against white SA farmers, the official redistribution of lands and wealth is completely justified. ”

    Of course it is… its been such a success elsewhere in the region, hasn’t it… Mugabe’s scheme has done such things for his nations production of food, he even turns away UN food aid.

  • Caoimhín

    Perhaps we could try it here, them folk of Planter stock could be compelled to “redistribute” their ill-gotten gains to those pure Gaels.

    Its a pathetic polciy which ignores the reality of economics and food production in Africa.

  • qubol

    ok fair enough Dread, it has been a disaster for Zimbabwe but a lot of that has to do with Mugabe being a complete bastard. If done properly it can work and is necessary to get the the 40% of income recieved by 7% of the population more evenly spread to the 50% in poverty.

  • Overhere

    Sorry Qubol cannot find the article I copied it from the Beeld to translate a few months ago so hopefully will have a copy somewhere.

    I agree with the farm redistribution programme and it is going ahead. Of course it is not as quick as some would like and unfortunately nine times out of ten the farm falls into disrepair and stops being a viable concern. So you can imageine the frustration on both sides. Ask any farmer in NI what he would do in the same situation.

    I fully agree that the Boers like the Ulster Unionists did and still do them selves no favours but does that simply mean you allow them to be exterminiated

  • Dread Cthulhu

    qubol: “If done properly it can work and is necessary to get the the 40% of income recieved by 7% of the population more evenly spread to the 50% in poverty. ”

    Which is why other African nations are hiring the ex-Rhodesians, rather than subsidizing local farmers, neh?