As a result of already being separated…

Davy Adams puts the McIlveen killing in the context of a separate lives scenario which may be a pre-condition of current political priorities (subs needed), rather than a result of clear political choices.

After more than a decade of relative peace, Northern Ireland still consists, largely, of two tribal groups living in almost complete isolation from, and opposition to, one another. In most areas, shared ground has long ago been carved up into separate Catholic and Protestant districts where only those of like persuasion are welcome. Even in the occasional mixed community of private-ownership housing, there is little real interaction between neighbours from differing religious backgrounds. In the main, people in Northern Ireland actually prefer to live, work and socialise amongst their own religious affiliates. The communities happily reside separately, in virtual parallel worlds to one another, where stereotyping and demonising is given full rein.

It is within that kind of society that we raise our children. Protestant and Catholic youngsters do not live on the same streets, they do not play together, they do not go to school together and they do not socialise together.

Most of them have never knowingly had contact – or at least not enough to form an opinion of their own – with anyone outside their own community until they leave school and start work. By which time, in all probability, enormous damage has already been done.

Many have been taught to distrust, or even hate, those from what amounts to an alien background. Added to this mix, are varying degrees of problems now common within any western society: a more general lack of respect for authority, a high proportion of young men having been raised without any positive male role model in the home, and widespread drug and alcohol abuse.

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  • Busty Brenda

    Not an unjustified opinion after what has happened in Ballymens, BUT
    I think Davy is jumping to an awful lot of conclusions. the lack of a male model within the home, mixed marriages, and youngsters not having any respect for authority, are not features of N Irish society alone, but are problems which affect the whole of the western world. I think Davy is subtly suggesting that it is.

    Yes we prefer our own kind. It’s pretty evident from the way we live, but there is a shake up going on, with relative new comers coming in, and residing hapily among us.

    Couldn’t Davy have pointed to that, and instead of looking inward and crying woe, and perhaps look at the more positive things that are happening.

    We need a more positive outlook, and for the odd public person to point to our strengths rather than our weaknesses.

    It would go a long way.

    Have a nice weekend sluggerites.

  • joeCanuck

    I totally agree Busty.
    We’re all in this mess together and can only get out of it together.

    There’s a majority of good folks out there, I’m convinced, and as i’ve quoted in a previous post “For evil to prosper, good men (I’m adding good women0 have only to do nothing” – Edmund Burke (a few hundred years ago).

  • Rubicon

    Davy Adams’ proposes segregation is caused by sectarianism – but is it? It can equally be cogently argued that segregation is an outcome of sectarianism. Population shifts in North Belfast for example suggests increased segregation follows sectarian tensions.

    Certainly, segregation gives greater freedom to sectarianism and makes it a more intractable problem to solve but getting there may have to start with tackling views and actions that contribute to distrust and hatred.

  • Harry

    People such as Davy Adams can witter on for ever about the ‘two tribes’ we’ve all become and how ‘healing’ is needed and tackling ‘sectarianism’ is needed and all the rest of it. The bald fact of the matter is that it is partition, the political and military structures of the northern irish state as well as the powerlessness – to this day – of 44% of the population which is at the root of this; 44% of the population who are forced against their will to remain separated from the country with which they identify in a polity with which they don’t and which is controlled by those who are deeply antagonistic to their views.

    That is what is wrong. Never mind all the blather about needing to cross bridges and get to know one another and all that. The real poison – the sump and source of all this – is the northern irish state and its insistence on coercing almost half its population into submission, to this day. It is partition and the character of the state that follows on from it that endlessly gives rise to threat, violent assertions and clashes, military suppression & political double-speak and triple-speak – a state set up to satisfy the 2 main players, unionism and the british, against the majority will of the people on the island and against what would by now be the majority of its citizens (nationalists) had they been able to live free from the political and physical supremacy of those who have beset them for 80 years.

    That’s where the problem lies. It is the poison of unionist supremacy and british ruthlessness. If you want to fix this country that is where you must make changes.

  • Rubicon

    Harry – with the signing of the GFA and its all-Ireland endorsement the nationalist argument moved on to; accepting the NI border, the removal of Articles 2 & 3 and the acceptance of constitutional change occurring by consent.

    Ireland is seeking to move on, dropping the baggage that has contributed to ‘the troubles’ and build a peaceful future. It has required nationalist sacrifice some of its dogma – but not only them, unionists too.

    Are you arguing against the GFA Harry? If so, whose views are you representing? Not those of the overwhelming majority of the people of Ireland anyway. The espousal of views such as yours contributes to segregation and isn’t segregation most aptly expressed by the border itself?

  • Faugh

    Sorry Busty and Joe

    that just sounds like “heads down and blinkers on” which might have been a viable approach before the divisive wedge of sectarian violence got in on the act.

    To heal that chasm will require a more proactive stance, whereby people who want to make a difference, will have to venture into unfamiliar and uncomfortable areas, both geographically and socially.

    For that to happen, we need people from both traditions not just to extend general invitations, but to make specific ones to aquaintances and neighbours, for them to come with them and experience first hand somthing of the others culture.

    You might even be able to designate a particular day, week, month and give it a fancy title to popularise the concept and grab some funding …. then again maybe not!

  • Harry

    I don’t know why you are so negative about my post rubicon, I merely diagnosed a problem. My diagnosis is correct. Why you’re talking about the GFA and ‘moving on’ without any real consideration of what I wrote suggests something of a unionist mindset to me, the type of mindset that wants to ‘tidy-up’ and brush away what it doesn’t really want to confront.

    The GFA is not working. Nationalism offered an historic compromise to unionism. They really meant it. Unionism has chosen to throw that back in their face. Many nationalists were prepared to deal with the GFA as a compromise. Unionism’s inability to engage with that will lead to conflict. Nationalism is not impressed. This is what is at the root of sectarianism.
    Unionism thinks it can rewrite the rules now that it has welched on the deal it signed up to. It wanted victory after all, without having to move on anything it didn’t want to. This is breaking a deal. Unless the GFA is implemented nationalists will not accept anything less. Many had problems with the GFA but were prepared to give it a go; I would say that quite a few are happy enough its not operative since the unionists are clearly not made of the stuff worth compromising with.

    If there is no resolution within 2 years I believe unionism will live to regret it’s dishonesty over this deal and its continuing supremacist viewpoint.

    That is what is at the root of this problem rubicon. Don’t lecture me about ‘moving on’ – there are many others you’d be better to direct that phrase at, and they’re in power today.

  • Rubicon

    I’m conscious of not getting off thread here since I agree with you Harry in as far as the GFA being in current jeopardy. It is not dead yet though and it may yet survive.

    The GFA did facilitate review that allows the DUP to seek changes in Strand 1. There’s nothing wrong with them attempting to do so and some of their criticisms of collective executive responsibility are worth listening to without taking the knee-jerk response that the SDLP have adopted. Review of the GFA was and is allowed for.

    The DUP delay however is not caused by their criticisms of the GFA – but by increasingly frail accusations of republican criminality. Their failure to implement the GFA for this reason I would consider a failure – but not a failure by a party that officially endorsed the agreement.

    The GFA allows for joint working of government and a process that can contribute to building the trust that can tackle sectarianism and segregation. So far, it hasn’t been too successful but the blame for that can be pretty widely spread.

    I don’t accept that partition is the principal cause of the sectarianism that contributes to segregation. Greater contributing factors have been the METHODS used to support or criticise partition.

  • Faugh

    Harry

    whilst I personally think that home rule would have been preferable at the time. Sectarianism was alive and kicking (sic) long before that, and has been nurtured and formed into the large and problematic beast that it is today, primarily as Rubicon has suggested by the “METHODS” employed both by those for and against.

    Davy Adams’ article was highlighting the “paralell tracks” problem where both traditions co-exist with little or no first hand knowledge of each other.

    Have you anything other than the removal of the border and the achievement of a U.I. to suggest, that could work towards the eradication of sectarianism in the here and now?

  • missfitz

    I dont know if you would all be familiar with the SPED programme, the special purchase of evacuated dwellings.

    I’ve pasted a link to allow you all to see the reality of life for some people.

    While the good news is that forced evictions are reducing, the bad news is that last year, the segregation we talk about forced 120 families to flee for their lives because of intolerance of one kind or another.

    I filled in about 7 of these SPED applications, and terror justly describes how people felt. I had one couple who had unwittingly bought a house in Dundonald and had to leave it within 3 months as they were catholic.

    Harry, while I know the point you are making, you cannot ignore the majority population in NI and the choices they are making. That is our reality and that is what we deal with, not some nonsense about UI

  • joeCanuck

    Faugh

    “Heads down and blinkers on”

    That’s the exact opposite of what I said.
    I implied that good people have to do something.

    Your suggestion is a good one. I would take it a little bit further, something I used to do when I still lived in N.I back in the darkness of the 70’s, and that was to ask to join in with “others” on their activities. For example, going to their sports clubs, go swimming with them etc. I made a lot of good friends that way.

  • Harry

    rubicon wrote:
    “I don’t accept that partition is the principal cause of the sectarianism that contributes to segregation. Greater contributing factors have been the METHODS used to support or criticise partition.”

    It is protestant supremacy that is at the root of sectarianism. That is all there is to it, pure and simple.

    Catholics are not inclined to be sectarian, they are too arrogant for that metaphysically speaking. Also they seek compromise, which unionists consider – with a true Settler people mentality – to be a sign of weakness and an effort by the duplicitous indigents to ingratiate themsleves in the absence of the blunt power to do so.

    Protestant supremacy has as its purpose the maintanance of the link with britain. Kicking the crap out of the natives was necessary to protestantism in northern ireland because it forced enough catholics out to maintain an artificial majority and it helped to consolidate their identity against a demonised ‘other’ who were ‘disloyal’ and potentially rebellious. It is protestant supremacy which is at the root of sectarianism, aided and abetted by the british who used it for their own ends. The refusal of unionism to come to an historic compromise with nationalism shows that it is the supremacist nature of unionism, backed up by guns, which is the real root cause of this. Even when the natives compromise – as they did in 1922 and for 50 years after and which they did again in 1998 – it is taken as a sign of weakness and duplicity and is always the preface to bigotry.

    The northern state and partition were created precisely in order to accomodate all of these aspects of unionism and protestantism.

    That is the long and the short of sectarianism in northern ireland.

  • joeCanuck

    Another contribution I made was to send my children to a state school, even though I was (very) nominally a catholic. And I persuaded my parents to take my younger siblings out of a catholic high school and send them to a state school. Both myself and my parents lived in (seperate) mixed areas and I think that little action helped integration somewhat.
    I think all of the children should be schooled together and that it would make a huge difference in a generation or so.

  • Faugh

    Joe

    apologies for my mistake, I’ve learnt to master both fife and tin whistle by doing somthing similar. (on second thoughts change master to sort of play :))

  • missfitz

    Harry
    If ever the maxim about people in glasshouses throwing bouldes applied to anyone it applies to what you just wrote.

    I’m not being purposely ad hominem here, but honestly, how can you say that Protestants are supremist and bigoted, and demonstrate those exact qualities yourself?

    Not all Protestants in NI are here as a result of Plantation. In the 19th century, when Belfast was the economic centre of the island of Ireland, there was a population expolosion in the North East with many skilled workers coming from England and remaining.

    You are taking an over simplistic view of the situation, and one that does no credit to either side

  • joeCanuck

    Faugh

    Apology accepted.

  • Comrade Stalin

    44% of the population who are forced against their will to remain separated from the country with which they identify in a polity with which they don’t and which is controlled by those who are deeply antagonistic to their views.

    Harry, this is complete rubbish. 71% of the people in Northern Ireland – most of them nationalists – voted for the Good Friday Agreement which accept partition. The GFA has already addressed your whole argument – please try to get with the programme and move on.

    The rest of your argument is pure sectarianism. “Catholics are not inclined to be sectarian” is probably one of the most ironic statements that could be made in the context of a discussion on NI politics.

  • Faugh

    Harry LOL

    religous sectarianism has been a lever pulled by many states at many times. It seems a little disengenious to suggest that it has been soley the preserve of the “British-Protestant Ascendencey”.

    I also seem to remember somthing of the 1798 rebellion being a bit of a cause celebre for Presbyterians at that time and shame that it failed, as it provided the flicker of an enchanting possibility, the possibility of an Ireland with church and state were entirely seperated.

    On a personal note I have had first hand experience of Catholic sectarianism, whilst I was working just outside Galway on a project for the civil service, a supervisor whose job it was to select staff for training on a course that I ran was bemoaning the fact that she couldn’t select what she considered to be more able delegates as she had been told off the record to chose based on religion.

    I have also lost work in the ROI due to my political views, my cousins, Roman Catholics meanwhile have experienced protestant sectarianism whilst living in the north. So please drop the pretense and suggest somthing positive.

  • elfinto

    Have you anything other than the removal of the border and the achievement of a U.I. to suggest, that could work towards the eradication of sectarianism in the here and now?

    The question wasn’t addressed to me but I will answer it.

    No. The state of Norn Iron is sectarian to its core and should be abolished. That is the only way to take religion out of politics in this country. Until then we are all prisoners.

  • Faugh

    elfinto

    thanks for the answer! What tangible benefits with regard to the removal of religous sectarianism do you think would be manifest by the removal of the border?

  • Harry

    Comrade Stalin wrote:
    “Harry, this is complete rubbish. 71% of the people in Northern Ireland – most of them nationalists – voted for the Good Friday Agreement which accept partition. The GFA has already addressed your whole argument – please try to get with the programme and move on.”

    They voted for peace, and the acceptance of partition under sufferance only insofar as the GFA was implemented and a much greater political and economic connection with their guarantor, the South, was put in place.

    All of that has been thrown out by unionism, which now seeks to bask in the glow of victory.

    The unionists have welched on the deal. To say ‘get with the programme and move on’ while dismissing the things I have laid out shows that you and those who think like you are not actually interested in why sectarianism exists. You want to hear things on your own terms and that’s it. Foolish and wilfully closed-minded, albeit masquerading as the reasonable view. It is in fact the unionist view.

  • Alan Law

    The hatred and sectarianism which exists in Ireland (north and south) will not evaporate following unification. People is this small island have developed and sustained an ability to loathe those who are different. Its a solution to this problem and not trite comments about border removal which is needed.

  • L Dallas

    “I think Davy is jumping to an awful lot of conclusions. the lack of a male model within the home, mixed marriages, and youngsters not having any respect for authority, are not features of N Irish society alone, but are problems which affect the whole of the western world.”

    I have read the above comment a few times and compared it to the article. I can’t understand the gripe. Does Adams not clearly state that he see this as a problem common throughout the western world?
    But refers to it in the context of it adding an extra problematic dimension to the “two tribes” sectarianism that exists amongst many young people as well and how that manifests itself in many instances?

  • Faugh: You say you were discriminated against in Galway. If you cannot document that, it is anecdotal, at best. The fact is, the Northern Protestant mindset is supremacist and sectarian: that is your history, whether it be in the shipyards, engineering, the docks or the linen mills. Like comparable bullies, you used your religion with your control of apprenticeships and skilled jobs to look down your noses at those, mostly Catholics, you correlled into the Bogside, Ardoyne and similar areas. You actively discriminated against places like South Armagh for generations. When all else failed, you used state and paramilitary violence again and again to make the Croppies (and others) lie down. You have a disreputable, disgusting history. Deal with it.

  • DCB

    I always find the old republican line of “only prods are sectarian” to be very funny. The very words are a contridiction because painting all prodestants as secterain monsters is of course secterian.

    And of course the notion that once the Brits are out prod false consciousness will lift and we will all live happly ever after…..

  • Jo

    More trolling..

    “Catholics are not inclined to be sectarian”

    Jesus wept!

  • Harry

    I have explained to you the fundamental reasons why there is sectarianism in n. ireland. You seem to have nothing to say in return but to throw your hands in the air and cry ‘jesus wept’. Or force some giggles to mask your intellectual bankruptcy before the obvious points I have made. Or find something to argue about ancillary to the main point.

    All in all, unionists are not equipped to deal with the truth.

  • Jo

    Perhaps, “Harry,” if you want examples of Catholic sectarianism you could read JH Whyte’s “Church and State in Modern Ireland.”

    Its a large book, come back when you finish, say about July.

    “unionists are not equipped to deal with the truth”

    Jesus continues to weep…

  • Harry

    An autistic and self-serving people who would drive any reasonable person to despair.

    Now that there has been peace for 10 years the reason why the war began in the first place is becoming more and more evident – unionist supremacy.

  • Pattila the Hun

    “More trolling..”
    The sad thing is that I think you’re wrong Jo.

    From what I’ve read of his previous comments, Harry ain’t no troll, it’s just that we’re unaccustomed to seeing his kind of street-level honesty from other Republicans on this board. He he genuinely believes what he’s writing.

    We have got to have these kind of beliefs out in the open first, before we can have any chance of understanding them and hopefully neutralising them in the future.

  • “We have got to have these kind of beliefs out in the open first, before we can have any chance of understanding them and hopefully neutralising them in the future.”

    Maybe Harry is right and maybe Unionism’s ongoing history of Taig bashing, Taig baiting and Taig killing is bad. Just maybe.

  • Pattila the Hun

    And maybe you should read some of Harry’s previous offerings on other threads before commenting?

  • Jo

    You can call it “street-level honesty ” – I’ll stick with calling comments like:

    “Catholics are not inclined to be sectarian”

    and

    “unionists are not equipped to deal with the truth”

    …empty headed sectarian generalisations designed not to convey anything other than the complete prejudice of the utterer and – as the writer has in the past expressed contempt for our current “peace” – possibly designed to flame hatred and violence.

    Instead of reading any blogs, perhaps I should just close my eyes and imagine the most bitter twisted interpretation of anytthing I see on TV (such as the malignant video re Michael McIlveen)
    I could then use my time on the ‘puter doing something more life enhancing and informative.

  • Pattila the Hun

    FFS, I’m not arguing that he’s right Jo!

    The first element of any true resolution to any conflict is honesty on the part of all sides.

    We don’t get that in NI and certainly not on Slugger. I’d far rather have someone like Harry telling me what he really thinks of me and Unionists generally, than the round-the-houses silly tactical games played by other republicans on here.

    As far as I’m concerned, it’s a good thing that Harry gives us his opinion, it gives you the opportunity to hold them up to scrutiny and point out their weaknesses.

  • Here are good Protestants justifying the murder of this young “sectarian bigot”.

  • Pattila the Hun

    Truly horrible.
    I hope the PSNI quickly catch whoever’s responsible for this shite.

  • “As far as I’m concerned, it’s a good thing that Harry gives us his opinion, it gives you the opportunity to hold them up to scrutiny and point out their weaknesses”.

    Patilla: Maybe you should point out the weaknesses in your opinion and those of your fellow Huns too. Let’s put it in Free Presbyterian doctrinal terms for you:

    1. (All) Catholics go to Hell. ok, Catholics would agree lots of Catholics are going to hell so…
    2. All “saved” Protestants go to Heaven. Rather, the Billy Boys will swagger into Heaven, as, to quote Billy King Rat Wright, God sorts the good dead Taigs out from the bad dead Taigs.

    It is point (2), the holier than thou arrogance/supremacy that stands behind a lot of the Troubles. So, forget about the heathen Taigs and their barbaric Gaelic and games for just a minute and reflect upon how self righteous God’s righteous are.
    Enjoy the rest of your dour Sabbath;)

  • Pattila the Hun

    Well, that’s me told good and proper.
    I can’t really argue with the kind of logic you’ve displayed there, so I won’t even bother trying.

    “Enjoy the rest of your dour Sabbath;)” I think you mean the Holy Sabbath there;)

    Now if you excuse me, I’ve got to put on my Sunday Best, I’m off to join the rest of my brethren (all approx 800,000 of them) down the Martyr’s Memorial for the 7 o’clock service. And if you must insist on enjoying yourself with your strange games, trips down the Devil’s Cavern (the boozer) and (may God forgive you) with playing on the swings and slides in the local park, please remember it’s the Lord’s Day and do so quietly.

    I’ll be praying for you tonight;)

  • Shay Begorrah

    This is all pretty much off topic now DCB but you are in classic straw man territory. No one said the south was free of prejudice or that protestants are all sectarian.

    However Unionism, the majority politcal tradition of northern Ireland protestantism, does have a racist pedigree.

    NI before the troubles was a sectarian state, Unionists ran it and sectarian was the way they wanted to keep it. Protestant land for a Protestant people and all that.

    Modern Unionism reminds me terribly of meeting well educated, friendly and rational white South Africans post apartheid when they just wanted to brush forty years of institionalised prejudice down under the carpet as if the change to democracy absolved their political tradition of the ramifications of everything that had gone before. It is not a like with like comparison of course, the British army never shot dead unarmed protestors or imprisoned thousands without charge. My little joke.

    Until there is a collective realization by Unionism that the pre civil rights NI was a very bad place to to be a nationalist/catholic because of establishment racism (religion in the north being just a handy marker for ethnicity) your kids are going to be the ones who tend to be out on the streets beating the “other” to death.

    Those of them who do not win places in grammar schools of course.

  • DCB

    Shay I think there’s a bit of substance behind my straw. For instance, Taig posted this little gem.

    Faugh: You say you were discriminated against in Galway. If you cannot document that, it is anecdotal, at best. The fact is, the Northern Protestant mindset is supremacist and sectarian: that is your history, whether it be in the shipyards, engineering, the docks or the linen mills. Like comparable bullies, you used your religion with your control of apprenticeships and skilled jobs to look down your noses at those, mostly Catholics, you correlled into the Bogside, Ardoyne and similar areas. You actively discriminated against places like South Armagh for generations. When all else failed, you used state and paramilitary violence again and again to make the Croppies (and others) lie down. You have a disreputable, disgusting history. Deal with it.

    Posted by Taigs on May 14, 2006 @ 07:18 AM

    That seems pretty close to “your a prod, your a bigot, deal with it”.

    All ehtnic based, exclusive nationalisms/identities have a steak of racism in them. Be that a gealic pure Ireland or a prod Ulster.

  • Pattila the Hun

    “Modern Unionism reminds me terribly of meeting well educated, friendly and rational white South Africans post apartheid when they just wanted to brush forty years of institionalised prejudice down under the carpet as if the change to democracy absolved their political tradition of the ramifications of everything that had gone before.”

    Shay Begorrah
    This is an interesting point.
    In my present location, I’ve got to meet quite a few Serbs of a liberal bent who decided that exile in neighbouring states was a much better option than staying in their homeland when Milosevic was starting on his ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Croatia. Terrible crimes were carried out in the name of Serb nationalism but does that mean that every Serb for this and the next generation bears a direct responsibilty for these crimes?

    Like yourself, I’ve met on my travels several young white South Africans who have completely adjusted to the concept of a multi-racial South Africa. Although their version of history may differ from that of the typical ANC activist, do they still bear a responsibilty for the crimes of their forefathers?

    This is kind of what I was getting at when I made my last rather facile answer to “taigs”.

    He’s already in his/her mind made a judgement of me and my political beliefs based on my avatar and the fact that I’ve criticised a couple of nationalist posters for their pejorative comments on Unionist attitudes. We are not one homogeneous group.
    Surely then I am responsible for my own actions and attitudes, not for those of my entire “community” and the crimes it may or may not carried out in the past?

  • Shay Begorrah

    Hey Pattila, I understand your frustration at Taigs criticism of you personally and agree that it is frustrating to be blamed for something you had no hand in and would not support now.

    NI has enough guilt for everyone to do some paying back but I think people like Taig might resent that Unionism’s current leadership will not be the people to acknowledge it.

    On a now barely related note my experiences in SA led to me believe that white South African’s living there, hospitable and charming as they were, still did not get that their ethnic groups position, their houses, industries, infrastrucure and wealth was built with what was effectively slave labour and their debt to the formerly oppressed black majority will take a long time to be balance out.

  • Faugh said he was discriminated against in Galway? Did he file suit? Was this alleged discrimination systematic? Did you merely imagine it to justify your own bigoted outlook? If you did not file suit and win, please explain why.

    Patill: I don’t beleive Van Morrisson or George Best were particularly bigoted (though Best’s father was a LOL member). However, the society that spawned them, and you, has historically been inward looking and reactionary. As a society, ith as meted out very rough justice to ethnic Catholics and others who sided with them down the years. The culture of forelock tipping to “Royalty”, and dressign up in camp uniforms to Taig bait, is, the politics apart, so alien to ethnic Irish Catholics that the two will never blend. All I am aksing you or any Hun to do is to reconsider the arrogance that lies at the heart of your centrified culture. The problem is that any Protestants who reject that conformity have found out just how cold your culture really is.

    DCB: Deal with your sectarian history, from Roaring Hanna, to the shipyard expulsions to the 1920 Belfast pogroms, to your 60 odd years as a Protestant state, down to the present.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Taigs,
    You are so prejudiced against Protestants that I am at a loss as to how you manage to bear meeting them in the street! Have you tried hypnosis? Do you perhaps live in the City-side of Londonderry, West of the Bann, West Belfast or in South Armagh? If the answer is no to both questions and hypnosis is too “freaky” for you then you should perhaps seriously think of moving to one of the aforementioned areas. There you won’t meet too many “Huns” due to the fact that thousands of them have been intimidated out of these areas to appease people like you with your fascistic views…

  • Patilla the Hun

    “All I am aksing you or any Hun to do is to reconsider the arrogance that lies at the heart of your centrified culture.”

    There isn’t a “centrified” Protestant culture now, I’m not sure there ever was.

    At the basic level, look at the enormous number of different Protestant churches, Dr Eames certainly isn’t singing from the same hymn-book theologically as Ian Paisley. Talk to a protestant in private and for every one who still supports the OO, I’d reckon you’ll find at least one who despises them. Yes, the DUP are now the main party of Unionism, but also, many Protestants sickened with the sectarian charade that is NI politics, no longer vote.

    There are socialist protestants, there are right-wing protestants. There are racist protestants, sectarian protestants and there are protestants (ie the ones who follow Christ’s teachings) who hate racism and sectarianism as much as you purport to do.

    My point is that you cannot put them all into a conveniently labelled box ascribing a set of attitudes and beliefs to every single last one of them.

  • DK

    Harry/Taigs (same person?),

    Following on from the Davy Adams article, have you ever attempted yourself to engage with a person from the opposite community? Perhaps you have an interest that has a cross-community support group (like running, or cycling, or pottery). Try it out – then re-read your posts.

    In case you say, well why don’t you: I made the ultimate cross-community gesture. I married one of them.

  • [i]”There are socialist protestants…and there are protestants (ie the ones who follow Christ’s teachings) who hate racism and sectarianism as much as you purport to do”. [/i]

    And, Patilla, as I said, these have traditionally got it hardest in the neck. John Dunlop to name but one and the trade unionists of the 1920’s pogroms to name another.

    I am not asking you to set up altars to Bobby Sands (who played for Stella Maris, along with two kids who went on to join the UVF). I am not asking you to send money to Sean Kelly, who bombed Frizzels. All I am asking you to do is to try to figure out from where their motivations sprang. Can you do that? Don’t agree with them, don’t worship them, certainly don’t worship Sands’ “poetry”. Just try to understand why they did waht they did.

    First you must empathize with your “enemies”, see where they are coming from. But you, as a group, cannot do that. Same as the Israelis, who refuse to acknowledge their own nefarious deeds when condemning Hamas, the principled group Mossad helped set up to weaken Al Fatah.
    Finally, Patilla, and this one is to you personally, I salute you for engaging in dialogue. I don’t know what good that salute you will do you but it’s yours anyways.

    Concerned Loyalist: what are you concerned about? How did your school essay go? What was the topic?

  • Rubicon

    DK – Does your partner know that you married him/her as a cross-community gesture? He/She may be upset since he/she may have assumed you did it for a different motive.

    It’s cheap using a partner as a token – but, if you have and your partner knows this – I’ve no further arguement.

    You’ll have made yourself perfectly clear!

  • missfitz

    at least he said it was a gesture, not a sacrifice

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Davy Adam’s piece might have been well intentioned but it is off the mark. It reminded me of someone defending the past segragation in the US seperate but equal.. . If the 2 tribal theory is to hold up…then the 2 tribes have to be seperate but equal…and the north is anything but that. The unionist tribe get more privledges then the republican tribe….so an deep underlying problem is the fact republicans/the Irish Catholic tribe…are not viewed as equal…and if you are not viewed as an equal human being…then you can be beaten to death without much public outcry as is what has happened to Michael McIleevn….even though Michael was supposedly going to join the british army and Ian Paisly has helped the family…this boy was killed for no other reason than he was viewed by the unionist as an Irish Catholic and that was reason enough to beat him to death…many unionist/loyalist don’t view Irish Catholic as equal human beings….and that makes it easy to kill them…with brutality. The nazi’s didn’t view jews…Russians as equal human beings and that enabled millions to be killed with brutality.

  • L Dallas

    Kathy C
    “It reminded me of someone defending the past segragation in the US …”

    I wish I had a pint of whatever you are on! Or did you not even bother reading Adams’ column? Far from defending the situation he is actually bemoaning it. And anyway, aside from your ridiculous, sectarian rant which was acually the only reason you posted, who says that for there to be two separate tribes they have to be equal?

  • Patilla the Hun

    “Finally, Patilla, and this one is to you personally, I salute you for engaging in dialogue. I don’t know what good that salute you will do you but it’s yours anyways.”

    “Taigs”

    Thanks.
    I’ve agreed with virtually nothing you’ve said, but you’ve been honest and up-front expressing your opinions and that’s what’s missing from a lot of the dialogue in NI.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    LDallas, I didn’t miss what Davy Adams was saying…. He takes the premise that there are two tribes and then compares the problem with these two tribes having all things as equal to look and react to the situtations in the north. I am saying…that there may be 2 tribes but each tribe will view the world through their experiences…and the tribe of the Irish’s experience is one that has been treated inferior to the unionist side. There have been lots of studies on this type of behavior and it is classic. When one side(tribe) views itself as better than the other…the reason the walls of seperation in society exist have to be addressed and they go far deeper than just children from the different sides playing with each other.
    A step in the right direction would be to stop the orange order marches where they go through the other tribes neighbor hood marching in triumph over them. This is the cause…not playing with the other tribe…it is the attitude of that tribe that must change. If the orange order won’t give up their marching willingly..then it must be forced by law.