Orde: Loyalists still outside loop…

PSNI figures tally with the IMC’s findings that Loyalist paramilitaries are now responsible for most of the ‘security related’ crime in Northern Ireland. Athough it is important to note that whilst a primary aim of Nationalist strategy was to bring paramilitaries in from the cold, the opposite has largely been true of Unionist strategy: that criminality should be isolated and pursued by the police.

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  • willis

    Yes but loyalist criminality has an “acceptable” face – Drumcree and Harryville spring to mind.

    I’m not going to have a go at the DUP. They have to decide in their own good time when to say “Thanks but no thanks” to the lumpen loyalist thugs.

  • JD

    When is this issue going to be addressed seriously and the hard questions going to be asked of the DUP. How can they treat Sinn Fein and their electorate as less than human in a very public fashion and then try and wash their hands of it when tragedies such as Ballymena happen. Bigotry must be confronted, the time for these hypocracies are over.

  • ingram

    Hi,

    These figure are indeed worrying but Orde is a political policeman.He is playing the political game, turning on one side or the other dependant upon the situation, this is not a genuine attempt at community policing but a rearguard action designed to carryout the day to day orders of the British Govt.

    What we genuinely need is a truly representitive Police force free from political influence, let us have the truth warts and all not just a few sound bytes when the politicians want or need a point being made.

    Martin.

  • David Michael

    Hear hear, Martin. Some of us would like to sleep easy in our beds.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Orde is quoted in today’s press as saying:
    “This is the next generation – and let’s not tar or identify every young person as someone who’s into sectarian crime but there are people from the next generation who are prepared to go out looking for people, on both sides, it’s a two-way thing

    For the benefit of those of us who find his bilateralism baffling, perhaps Mr Orde could tell us about the last incident in which a Protestant young man/boy was killed by Catholics intent on sectarian crime. Or even seriously injured.

    It seems to me that the only way a Protestant is in danger of sectarian attack if he is ‘mistaken’ for a Catholic by unionist/loyalist thugs.

    However if Mr Orde – or someone else – can shed some light on this, I’d be grateful.

    If he can’t, he should consider his words more carefully.

  • fair_deal

    OC

    Some examples a quick websearch threw up

    “Or even seriously injured.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1932284.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3607356.stm

  • Bemused

    Nice one Fair Deal – we can always rely on you to be first out of the blocks with the old “it was themmuns” horseshit.

    I note your two examples date from April 2002 and August 2004. Wonder how many comparable loyalist attacks were carried out between those dates?

    Not interested?

    Thought so.

  • fair_deal

    bemused

    I made no claim of themmuns,linkages or justifications. OC asked a specific question about comparable attacks on protestants. I offered specific examples.

    As regards timing here is a recent example for you too

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4937820.stm

    Your ire is probably more the expectation of the question having no answer when it did. Sectarianism exists. It exists in both communities. It leads to attacks on property and people. To try and argue it is the sole preserve of one community with one community the sole victim is a falsehood, and a dangerous one at that.

  • Bemused

    Quite right Fair Deal. Sectarianism exists in both communities. I have never argued otherwise. To argue, however, that sectarian VIOLENCE is in some way equally distributed between the communities (when a significant majority of it is perpetrated by the unionist/loyalist community) is an equally contemptible falsehood and one which you appear to peddle on a consistent basis.

  • fair_deal

    bemused

    I don’t make the attacks up as the links I have provided show so I do not peddle falsehoods.

    Adopting the line “Our sectarianism isn’t as bad as your sectarianism” is truly sad. It is ultimately a blamegame riposte that doesn’t address the problem.

  • ncm

    How about adopting the line that there is a difference in the quantity of violence perpetrated by either side? Don’t get me wrong, all sectarian violence is terrible, however it would seem that the majority is carried out by Unionists as bemused said. What he didn’t say was “Our sectarianism isn’t as bad as your sectarianism”.

  • ingram

    Fair Deal,

    Let me give you two examples of Mr Orde.

    One day he asked me to identify an Individual (FRU) who went on National TV ( Peter Taylors) and admitted he asked Brian Nelson to become involved in acts including conspiracy to murder.I was told by the Stevens team that once a positive ID was made he would be arrested and charged. Orde told me that he would never tolerate officers under his command becoming involved in this type of activity

    I gave the ID and the next morning he was indeed arrested ( Never Charged), that was over THREE YEARS AGO and he is today a serving police officer within Mr Ordes PSNI. He is one of the number of cases before the PPS, not that any of those cases will be prosecuted because sooner or later Sinn Fein and the Govt will bring back a NI offences bill and ALL the Dirt will be swept under the nearest Carpet .

    The same day Orde told me that he would like to finish the Stevens inquiry very quickly because he disliked both the Province and the people.

    A few months later he applied for the post of Chief Constable PSNI and today he is a Sir ? forgive me for not sharing your confidence in the PSNI CC.

    He is a political policeman just like his old Boss who also happens to be a Sir.

    Martin

  • fair_deal

    martin

    “forgive me for not sharing your confidence in the PSNI CC.”

    Forgive me, but I never said i had any confidence in him in the first place.

    BTW You don’t like the paramilitaries, security forces or government and individuals involved in same – we get it.

  • ingram

    Fair Deal.

    Quote”Forgive me, but I never said i had any confidence in him in the first place.

    You are indeed forgiven.LOL

    I misunderstood a number of your posts that seem to support the PSNI and the CC.

    Martin

  • CuriousGeorge

    martin

    would the person you mentioned be a lowly constable or someone of rank?

  • Bemused

    “bemused

    I don’t make the attacks up as the links I have provided show so I do not peddle falsehoods.

    Adopting the line “Our sectarianism isn’t as bad as your sectarianism” is truly sad. It is ultimately a blamegame riposte that doesn’t address the problem.

    Posted by fair_deal on May 10, 2006 @ 03:37 PM”

    Fair deal – I never said that the links you provided were bogus – of course they’re true. If you’d actually READ my post you’d have noted that I was actually pointing out (as ncm noted)that the significant majority of sectarian violence emanates from the Unionist/Loyalist community. Whether you like it, don’t like it, consider it sad or “a blamegame riposte that doesn’t address the problem” is, frankly, irrelevant. Either it’s true or it isn’t – I note that you’ve conspicuously failed to agree or disagree. As I’ve previously pointed out, the majority of your posts on this subject tend to try to obscure and, by effect, deny the quantitative difference in violence emanating from the two communities.

    You are being dishonest and I don’t intend to desist from highlighting your dishonesty.

  • David Michael

    Antbody else catch the BBC NI news last night? There was a report on the McIlveen family and how they’re trying to cope. Very moving.

    But next the beeb sent a reporter out among the Ballymenatics to get the view from the ground. I didn’t get his name but like all BBC NI reporters he spoke like a Dalek.

    He “interviewed” a couple of Protestant spides, who did not wish to show their faces. They iterated and reiterated the claim that it’s “on both sides, on both sides”, and to prove it each showed to camera what looked like a minor cut or graze. The Roman Catholics had dunit.

    Tell you what I’m going to do. I barked my shin while out rock climbing yesterday. I’m going to invite the BBC round (pet Dalek included), show my wound and tell them the Portuguese dunit. Or the Poles.

    Honestly, how sensitive of the BBC; and how duplicitous. Of course, it was all done in the interest of “balance” dontyouknow. Keep it up guys; we the licence-payers love how you spend our money.

  • TAFKABO

    all sectarian violence is terrible, however it would seem that the majority is carried out by Unionists as bemused said. What he didn’t say was “Our sectarianism isn’t as bad as your sectarianism”.

    What’s the difference between the two statements?

    They both seem to be pretty much the same thing to me.
    It’s just the oft repeated nationalist mantra.

    We don’t say we’re better than themmuns, we just say that they’re not as good as us

    Here’s the biggest difference between Unionist sectariansim and Nationalist sectarianism.

    One side has learned better how to mask it (even from themselves).

  • Dec

    Here’s the biggest difference between Unionist sectariansim and Nationalist sectarianism.

    One side has learned better how to mask it (even from themselves).

    I would have thought the main difference is that Protestants don’t spend as much time burying 15 year old children who were beaten to death buying a pizza or stabbed to death whilst buying sweets.

  • George

    One issue hindering the battle against loyalist/Protestant sectarianism (as opposed to the other side) is that we still don’t have unionist parties coming out and categorically saying that they will accept the principal of consent, especially if it means leaving the United Kingdom. In other words, comitting themselves totally to democracy and the will of the people, even if it is not their will.

    Instead we have DUP leader Ian Paisley saying today that it is a “disaster” that there will now be no British army bases “West of the Bann” following the announcement that the last 3 are to close as part of “normalisation”.

    It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines of that statement. The loyalist “protectors” will be repeating his dire warnings tonight as they drum up support.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “Sectarianism exists. It exists in both communities. It leads to attacks on property and people. To try and argue it is the sole preserve of one community with one community the sole victim is a falsehood, and a dangerous one at that.”

    Sole victim… not… DISPROPORTIONATE victim, perhaps, but not sole. Given that sectarianism exists in both communities, how do you explain the disproportionate amount of Loyalist violence?

  • CuriousGeorge

    Something that most people here seem to miss is that young folks do not become sectarian thugs in a vacuum; it’s a learned behaviour.
    So, who is doing the teaching?

  • Sam (Something About Mary)

    Mary McAleese’s notorious RTÉ interview said something relevant to unionists who had fits over it, yet fail to recognise the culture which formed the children now charged with murder in Ballymena:

    “Áine Lawlor: And isn’t also something that we have to remember that [i]it simply starts with intolerance and it simply starts with not caring about someone’s humanity because they’re part of a group[/i] and [i]what happened with fascism was that it was converted then, that logic, to its ultimate efficient conclusion[/i], the killing machines of the concentration camps?

    Mary McAleese: You’re absolutely right and that’s a very good point worth remembering. And [i]Nazis didn’t invent anti-Semitism.[/i] They used anti-Semitism. They built on anti-Semitism. But they didn’t invent it.

    [i]It was, for generations, for centuries, an element of the lived lives of many people, who on the surface lived very good lives and many of them would have regarded themselves for example as very good Christians. But they gave to their children an irrational hatred[/i] of Jews [i]in the same way that people in Northern Ireland for example gave to their children for example an irrational and outrageous hatred of Catholics[/i], in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things, [i]all of those hatreds[/i] in the wrong circumstance on the street in Dublin they can outcrop in, as I have seen and heard, a little child from Somalia being pelted with rotten eggs. They can outcrop in a knife being taken in a fight and someone from Eastern Europe being knifed to death.

    [i]It’s a toxin, you see, it’s a poison, and it can be in weak and diluted form but in concentrated, even in that weak and diluted form it’s still capable of surviving long enough for a Nazi-type era to come along and to force it into concentrated form[/i] and in concentrated form you get Auschwitz, you get Birkenau, you get Darfur, you get Rwanda. That’s what you get when you don’t stop the toxin.”
    ————————————————
    “Mary McAleese’s brother John, who was profoundly deaf, was beaten by a three-man gang when he was 16 years old.

    John nearly died that night and according to the book ([i]The Road From Ardoyne: The Making of a President[/i]), he was able to name his attackers, no-one was ever charged with the assault. A few years after the assault, one of the attackers was convicted of the murder of a Catholic.”
    ————————————————
    I would say the ‘toxin’ is Orangism, it animates unionism, loyalism. At root, it informs the hatred taught to generations of children like those who kicked a boy to death in Ballymena.

  • Bunter

    My heart felt condolences go out to Michael McIlveens family. A sutupid crime committed by thugs who unfortunately know no better. This young boy was not a combatant. Hopefully his sacrafice will be a turning point for understanding in Ulster.(Unfortunatley we keep praying for this)

    The only people who can solve this is the leadership of the UVF & UDA combined. Big Ian really has no controll over these people he really does’nt. When will the joint leadership of the Loyalist Paras finally get a wake up call that the rest of us are fed up completely lets see change and see it now. Once again RIP Michael
    Hopefully no tit of tat.
    Bunter

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Bunter: “A sutupid crime committed by thugs who unfortunately know no better. This young boy was not a combatant. Hopefully his sacrafice will be a turning point for understanding in Ulster.(Unfortunatley we keep praying for this)”

    This is the biggest load of jet-wash. For starters, depending on whom you believe, the fellows involved include at least one college student. These weren’t some band of no-necked Neaderthals who were unaware of the notion that “killing is bad.”

    Secondly, sacrifice, young Michael McIlveen did not “make a sacrifice.” He was murdered. There is no small difference between these two concepts. Someone who “makes a sacrifice” does so willingly. He does not run a mile in terror.

    Bunter: “The only people who can solve this is the leadership of the UVF & UDA combined. ”

    I wouldn’t trust this collection of killers and drug dealers to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. These gentlement *ARE* the problem, not the solution.

    Bunter: “Big Ian really has no controll over these people he really does’nt. When will the joint leadership of the Loyalist Paras finally get a wake up call that the rest of us are fed up completely lets see change and see it now.”

    Well, mayhaps if Ian would start by *GIVING THEM THE WAKE-UP CALL*, you might have an arguement. For all the talk of Unionists havinging nothing but disdain for the Loyalist paramilitaries, their banners still appear in the OO parades, they still manage to recruit and they still control the streets, now don’t they?

  • ingram

    George

    Quote”would the person you mentioned be a lowly constable or someone of rank?

    He is not a big wig but not a plod.

    Martin

  • fair_deal

    DC

    1. The predominance of paramiliatrism in loyalist working class communities – having organisations that a raison d’etre is violence and approach all problems with violence means more violence. Even beyond their membership they create a culture of violence.
    2. The Protestant community is bigger than the Catholic community

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “1. The predominance of paramiliatrism in loyalist working class communities – having organisations that a raison d’etre is violence and approach all problems with violence means more violence. Even beyond their membership they create a culture of violence.”

    Fair ’nuff… what’s being done to deal with this little problem, other than Ballymena surrendering zoning power to the thugocracy re: flags? Or are the middle and upper classes of the Unionist communities going to continue to simply sniff in disdain, condemn and let this merry mob continue to run riot?

    Fair_Deal: “2. The Protestant community is bigger than the Catholic community ”

    Ah, but the disproportionality between the communities violence emanating from a given community exceeds the disparity between the communities. That is to say, that ratio of Loyalist crime to Nationalist Crime far exceeds the ratio of Protestants to Catholics. If this is your thesis, how do you account for this disparity?