A two-fingered salute to nationalists

Lisburn Council hit the headlines for two stories today. The Council’s unionist majority are planning a permanent memorial for the UDR in the town in spite of nationalist opposition (the UDR have, of course, hit the headlines this week for other reasons.) The Council is also due to award the Prison Service the freedom of the city on Saturday- one day after the 25th anniversary of the death of Bobby Sands. With this move, the Prison Service completes the complement of British state forces in receipt of this civic honour- given that the UDR, RIR and RUC have already received their ‘freedom’ of Lisburn.

  • Rubicon

    An old saying comes to mind, “What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?”

    Entirely underwhelmed by this news.

  • Brian Boru

    Pathetic.

  • Rory

    Village Voice columnist PJ O’Rourke, in his anthology of travel essays entitled “Holidays in Hell”, named the essay recounting his visit to Northern Ireland “The Piece of Ireland that Passeth All Understanding”.
    And he didn’t even get to Lisburn. Nor is anyone else likely to want to go there in a hurry. I shudder at the very contemplation.

  • TAFKABO

    That’s such a great article by O’Rourke, well worth tracking down.

    I’ll never forget him describing one woman he met as having the type of greasy dirty hair that only a commitment to serious left wing politics seems able to produce

  • Dread Cthulhu

    And thus the wheel turns…

  • Chris Donnelly

    TAFKABO

    That’s a great quote which I intend to use very soon- thanks!

  • Rubicon

    Ah yes – “the dirty unwashed proles …”

    O’Rourke is playing man (or in this case “woman”) and not the ball. To me, he’s described himself.

  • Rory

    Have a care, TAFKABO. I married that lady.

  • TAFKABO

    Rory

    I couldn’t give a toss to be honest.Take it up with PJ.

  • Rory

    O’Rourke in his volumes of essays has, over the years, attacked and riduculed in the most scurrilous fashion almost every sacred shibboleth (or principle) that I ever held dear. And left me rolling around the floor howling heplessly in laughter of self recognition on almost every occasion. The bastard!

    My favouite has to be “How to Drive Fast on Drugs and Not Spill your Beer while Having your Wing-wang Squeezed”.

  • fair_deal

    His review of Jimmy and Roslyn Carter book in “Give War a Chance” is his best bit piece for me. Most definitely man and woman not ball.

    Also Notes for a blacklist for the 1990’s is always fun after a bad or crushingly dull meeting

  • heck

    given the recent released information on loyalist collusion with the UDR this just proves my point that all the cries from unionists about criminality only applies to fenians

  • William Joyce

    Giving the UDR freedom of towns like lisburn is like giving the SS freedom of Auschwitz.

    Unionist denial of collusion is no different from denying the holocaust.

  • fair_deal

    “no different from denying the holocaust.”

    Should we laugh or cry?

  • TAFKABO

    Giving the UDR freedom of towns like lisburn is like giving the SS freedom of Auschwitz.

    Holocaust appropriation is just as bad as Holocaust denial.

  • Rapunsel

    Both I think. One might consider that the UDR and the SS already had the fredom of those respective places , the latter the freedom to murder millions of people. Was William Joyce not a holocaust denier anyway? Am I to take it that the logic therefore is that the holocaust didn’t happen and therefore neither did collusion?

    Anyway I don’t doubt the existence of collusion and what else would one really expect from Lisburn Council in respect of the UDR. The holocaust analogy is pathetic and surely comes from an extremely ignorant individual with limited knowledge of the Nazis policy of extermination.

  • William Joyce

    Wait till the monuments built before you start crying Fair deal.

  • puzzled

    Lisburn is a protestant town, so why do nationalists have a problem with this….sure a minority doesnt matter, least not to nationalists who want to rename londonderry, who have erected scores of IRA monuments in nationalist towns etc etc. PS Rubicon youre like my wee dog mate…..full of shit.

  • Godwins Law, but before 15 posts ( post 13 )
    heck has it right with:
    “this just proves my point that all the cries from unionists about criminality only applies to fenians”
    How can unionists hold their heads up?
    TAF?

  • Rapunsel

    Puzzled, I’m puzzled. What does ” Lisburn is a protestant town” mean? Have you even thought about it? For starters it isn’t a Protestant town — it’s an area where a majority of the population might happen to be protestant , however unless I am wrong there also happen to be people of the catholic faith and other faiths and none also living there. Also are the protestant community one homogenous group — is it not posible that there are protestant nationalists and republicans in Lisburn ? I suppose if there are you wouldn’t count them as proper protestants. Do you honestly believe that being in the majority should allow that majority to ride roughshod over the rights and culture of others. You may be trying to be ironic but looks like a bad case of whataboutery to me!

  • honest

    We can agree its a shithole?

  • William Joyce

    Its a blackhole you mean, no wait thats racist. Its a shithole because of the militarist culture thats been imposed by the UDR and Loyalist vigilantes.

  • edited – mod

    rapunsel ” Do you honestly believe that being in the majority should allow that majority to ride roughshod over the rights and culture of others. You may be trying to be ironic but looks like a bad case of whataboutery to me!” using you logic we can also infer there is no such thing as a Nationalist town, so can you join me in condeming the NAZI like actions and mentality of nationalists in towns such as newry (99% nationalist – 100% british) where several grotesque IRA monuments have appeared. The worst offender being a monument to those masters of slimmers, the hunger strikers (even though none were from newry) “the blanket man” (although he is so disfigured he looks more like the elephant man), which was erected in Newrys main shopping centre grounds, which was built on land donated by a protestant for all the people of newry. I avidly await you condemnation of such repugnant actions rapunzel! All this shit works both ways. PS will you also aggree the it would be “riding roughshed” to rename Londonderry.

    [Play the ball!, see commenting policy -moderator]

  • Conor Gillespie

    “sure a minority doesnt matter, least not to nationalists who want to rename londonderry”

    Uhmmm, there’s a significant difference between renaming a city and erecting a monument to a group to a group known for its support of murderers. The IRA didn’t name the city Derry, the Gaels did. (well actually ‘Doire’ or ‘Doire Cholm Chille’.) If the nationalists wanted to change it to Sandsville or some such thing the two might be more comparable. As it is though, all I can say is that you were aptly named “Puzzled”

  • TAFKABO

    heck has it right with:
    “this just proves my point that all the cries from unionists about criminality only applies to fenians”

    How can unionists hold their heads up?

    TAF?

    Another cry for sackcloth and ashes from the Natonalist Front.

    Heck has it right, in your opinion.
    Personally speaking, there are many things I feel ashamed of becaise they sprang from te unionst community, but collusion isn’t one of them.

    If (and I’m still not entirely convinced) the establishment colluded with criminals, it’s the establishment you need to take the issue up with.
    Quite what you think it has to do with me, I don’t know.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Unionist denial of collusion is no different from denying the holocaust.”

    Thank you Father Reid. Or should that be Father Ted, as you were obviously attempting some sort of joke.

    I very much doubt that many Unionists would seriously deny that there was collusion of an entirely unsatisfactory type between elements of the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries.
    Judging by the fact that loyalists are credited with ‘taking out’ a paltry 33 republican paramilitaries in 30 years, this ‘collusion’ appears rather piecemeal to say the least.
    Regarding loyalist terrorists, my personal experience of living through the ‘troubles’ is of a depressing catalogue of brainless sectarian murders, generally requiring such logistical skills as ordering a taxi from a catholic firm or shooting up a bar in a nationalist area.
    Had widespread efficient collusion occured, I suspect that the ranks of republican paramiltaries would have been decimated in a relatively short time.
    As regards Lisburn council, I don’t see any problem in their wishing to honour the security forces if the majority wish to do so. You don’t need to travel very widely in Northern Ireland to find a wide variety of memorials and murals to heroic IRA freedom fighters and hunger strikers. Whether they are council sanctioned or not, there seems little council interest in removing them, whereas if you put a few signs up for your local boot sale you could be slapped with a large fine.
    It’s the usual case of ‘our heroes deserve to be commemerated but yours can rot in hell.’
    A nation of equals indeed.

  • Occasional Commentator

    I say we give all the people of Northern Ireland the freedom of all of Northern Ireland.

  • Conor Gillespie

    Rancid Retard,
    “so can you join me in condeming the NAZI like actions and mentality of nationalists in towns such as newry (99% nationalist – 100% british)”

    AlrightWilliam Joyce, you can give the dunce cap over to this moron now. (:

    Really,once you make a comparison to the nazis etc. you’ve really lost the argument. I’m sorry but you blew it right there. This comment aside, I would havebeen inclined to agree with yourancid retard but your paranthetical comment reveals your true bias “99% nationalist – 100% british” Give it a break man. I certainly won’t compare your comments to Hitler but I have no problem comparing them to Paisley. (:

  • Conor Gillespie

    Oh sorry about that, I see a rightminded moderator has removed the offensive name that the recipient of mylast post gave himself. For those of you who weren’t here earlier, my post was adressed to the user now refered to as “edited -mod” (: cheers!

  • heck

    TAFKABO

    “If (and I’m still not entirely convinced) the establishment colluded with criminals, it’s the establishment you need to take the issue up with”

    I agree that the really guilty people are the puppet masters in whitehall and they should be named and shamed.

    what I am pointing out is the contradictory attitudes from unionists. On one side they say they don’t want criminals in government while on the other they want to be run by the establishment that colluded with criminals.

    I am simply pointing out they are not being honest. My opinion is that they don’t want fenians in government. this is the real reason, not arms, or criminality, or “he called us nazis”. If I am wrong then tell me the real reason.

  • yellow card – edited mod

    if i was this ugly id starve myselft to death too

    http://republican-news.org/archive/2002/May23/23newr.html

    but then when you erect monuments without all the peoples support bad things like this happen

    http://archives.tcm.ie/Newrydemocrat/2004/08/24/story3656.asp

  • Conor Gillespie

    “if i was this ugly id starve myselft to death too”

    clearly one of the celebrated wits of the UVF (:

  • Paul

    The point is, if your organisation puts up monuments to people perceived as murderers by many in this community, you can’t start moaning and whinging when monuments go up commemorating people who you consider murderers. Never mind that monstrosity in Newry, in the City Cemetery in Derry, which is mixed religiously, the IRSP stuck up a 15ft statue of a terrorist in full paramilitary garb over their tiny “plot”.
    Personally I’m sick and tired of memorials, commemorations, flags and parades. But hey, maybe this could be a whole new issue to drive us completely round the bend, “contentious memorials”. Surely there are “concerned residents” out there?
    Also, that “blanketman” thing in Newry, how did they get permission to put it up in a public space? Even on aesthetic grounds it should be removed. If we are going to have tit-for-tat memorials couldn’t we at least try to put up some nice things, not stuff that will frighten children? The IRSP didn’t ask for permission for their horror, being good socialists they don’t actually give a shit about anyone else’s feelings.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    William Joyce: “no different from denying the holocaust.”

    Fair Deal: “Should we laugh or cry? ”

    Right now, I’m going with slack-jawed “did I just read what I think I read…”

    This is two bridges and a cross-town bus too far, as a minimum.

  • Rubicon

    Puzzled – perhaps you should take your dog out for a walk – and take a poop-a-scoop with you! A diaper for yourself might be a good idea too 😉

    Try and deal with the content of comments lad – if you need to have a go at everyone who doesn’t think like you do (ohhh – or perhaps I should say “everyone who thinks”) there are other outlets instead of Slugger.

    Have you thought of applying for membership of the OO?

  • Dave

    This site has turned into nothing more than a (rubbish the unionists site)I would suggest that unionists boycott this site and leave the republican/nationalist element to Er.. debate amongest themselves?….however where else would we get this sort of entertainment eg. reading the views (as if they mattered in the least) of the MOPE. By God you people have been hard done by. maybe it is time to have a look aroung you and see what you don’t have.(the door is open)

  • Rubicon

    MOPE? What’s that?

    Damn – now I’m puzzled!

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”I would suggest that unionists boycott this site and leave the republican/nationalist element to Er.. debate amongest themselves?….”

    Sorry Dave but boycotts haven’t had a great history in Northern Ireland — nationalism boycotted the state at the outset, ensuring complete unionist domination and a woeful lack of nationalist input at a crucial time. ‘Ulster Says No’ boycotted everything in sight in the late 80s to ‘bring down’ the Anglo-Irish agreement, resulting in miserable failure, and more recently, the Orange Order have boycotted the BBC ‘Talkback’ programme, thereby ensuring that OO loose cannon Brian Kennaway gets wheeled on at every opportunity.
    The big problem Unionism has always had is that it hasn’t put it’s point succintly across, simply allowing republican revisionist propaganda to rule the roost whilst throwing a strop.
    There’s plenty of opportunity to debate here if you want to — alternatively you can make snide comments or simply troll, but don’t just sulk in the corner.

  • Doctor Who

    William Joyce

    “Giving the UDR freedom of towns like lisburn is like giving the SS freedom of Auschwitz.”

    Each time a pillock like you comes out with something like this I find it very offensive, as someone who lost blood relatives to the Nazis at that palce, can you appreciate where i´m coming from.

    I really don´t know wether to laugh or cry.

  • Conor Mac Giolla Easpuig

    Dave,
    “This site has turned into nothing more than a (rubbish the unionists site)I would suggest that unionists boycott this site and leave the republican/nationalist element to Er.. debate amongest themselves?….”

    TAFKABO, Dr. Who, Fair_Deal,
    Uh-oh guys hear that? What will you do
    without…..DAVE???!!!! ):

    Dave,
    A BOYCOTT? You should also look the word up in a dictionary (may I suggest the OED?) because your clearly misapplying it. No one’s asked for your input and frankly, your post made no arguments AT ALL! (: by far the biggest um “moper” on this thread is you yourself. If you don’t like what you read, why not make a reasonable argument for your position and engage in a constructive debate. There are plenty of excellent unionist commentators that frequent this site (many of whom have posted on this thread) why not try to chip in a legitimate 2 cents yourself rather than just err MOPING!

  • SpiceGirls

    SF support the erection of IRA memorials throughout N.Irland so for a start the shinners out there can say nothing. In defense of the UDR, I have no doubt that the vast majority of it’s members served with dignity, however, one cannot deny that a significant minority was colluding with so called loyalist paramilitaries. This must be acknowledged and condemmed by ALL polititions. I can understand nationalists having severe difficulties with the UDR, however, many of these men served their country in good faith, patrolling roads, defusing bombs, car searches etc.

    The UDR was composed largely of uneducated working class males fro protestant backgrounds. No doubt susceptible to the influences of paramilitaries, so it is little wonder at a time when scores of their colleagues were being assinated by the IRA that some of them passed on details to people in their community. I copndemn this totally but what I’m saying is that its not that surprising, and this should not take away from the sacrifice of the vast vast majority of the force.

  • Conor Mac Giolla Easpuig

    Again we have the typical “Just a wee bit o’ Bad apples” lecture. For every UD(A/R) man on the force there were at least five UDR men who knew exactly what he was doing and said NOTHING. where were the up right whisstle blowers when the terrorists were infiltrating their own ranks eh? Any commemoration of this organiztion would be a disgrace. In my oppinion, any ex-udr member who is worthy of a memorial would be a man who is disgusted by the policies of that organization and who took an active role to reform it.

  • DK

    Surely it depends on how tasteful the memorial is. The article says it consists of 2 soldiers – one male and one female. Let’s hope they are in a tasteful pose, not – say – pointing their guns west or something.

    Also the inscription should be the key. Something simple, such as “in memory of those members of the Regiment who died in the line of duty 1969-1994” (or whatever years are appropriate). Not something contentious, using words such as “murdered” or “Ulster’s enemies”, or attempts to make a political point.

    As the article points out, “The city has lengthy connections with the regiment as an Army garrison town and is the site of the military headquarters at Thiepval barracks”. And over 200 of the regiment were killed, not all by Republicans either.

  • smcgiff

    If he IRA can have monuments, so can the UDR. Simple as. That the UDR monument is sanctioned by a council seems fitting considering the history of the UDR.

    But, that’s the way of things in Northern Ireland no matter how loud the likes of IJP holler. This should give good impetus to officially changing Derry’s name.

  • Mick Fealty

    Dave,

    I own and run the site and I have to agree the conversations here vere more to emotive point scoring than they did a few years ago.

    Also where once people treated each other as individuals, there is a lot of retreat into group identity that than heretofore.

    Discussions here are most engaging when people speak out of their own experience.

  • Mick Fealty

    Conor,

    The bad apples line was most recently floated by Jim Gibney. What are we to make of IRA’s (reasonable) protests that it should not be judged by the killers of Robert McCartney?

    It seems you are trying a line of argument that can be transfered to every party to the conflict in Northern Ireland, with potentially devastating results.

  • Conor Mac Giolla Easpuig

    Here, here!

    I’ve noticed that many posters (both nationalist and unionist) have often used the cheap arguments of an individual poster to make statements about the group as a whole which is not only ludicrous but entirely usless. Example:

    Poster A – (insert rash statement)

    Poster B – (Quotes rash statement) “I always knew that those (insert political and/or religious ideology) refused to understand (insert topic) objectively. It’s just like back in (insert time period) when (insert whataboutery)

    I’ve done it a few times myself unconsciously and it often reduces the thread to the lowest common denominator on both sides of an issue. Thats my two cents anyway. (:

  • Conor Mac Giolla Easpuig

    (Blush) I didn’t see mick’s second post before I made mine but, as I said before, “I’ve done it a few times myself unconsciously and it often reduces the thread to the lowest common denominator on both sides of an issue.” sorry about that.

  • bag’oshite

    i’m an irish catholic republican as far as i care lisburn can do whatever it wants. after all it is mainly a loyalist town. did the good townsfolk not all whoop and holler for joy when some foreign head of state gave the wee town city status. let them have a memorial it will be voted in no matter what with a majority vote. but when it does get built dont complain to the dup or sinn fein instead complain to the ones who will probably give the deciding vote. thats alliance and sdlp

  • wild turkey

    puzzled

    ‘lisburn is a protestant town’ wait a minute i thought the slogan for lisburn city(?) is ‘ a city for all’ or somesuch marketing shite.

    to those with an interest in PJ, his back catalogue is available on american amazon. given current exchange rates, its worth considering.

    my fave pj is from the intro to holidays in hell

    ‘Finally, people are all exactly alike. Theres no such thing as race and barely such a thing as an ethnic group. If we were dogs, we’d all be the same breed. George Bush and and Australian aborigine have fewer differences than a ihaso apso and a fox terrier…. I wish I could say I found this out by spending artic nights on ice floes with Inuit elders… But actually, I found it out by sleeping around… Trouble doesn’t come from slopes, kikes , niggers, spics or white capitalist pigs; it comes from the heart.’

  • Dave

    Dave,

    “I own and run the site and I have to agree the conversations here vere more to emotive point scoring than they did a few years ago.

    Also where once people treated each other as individuals, there is a lot of retreat into group identity that than heretofore.

    Discussions here are most engaging when people speak out of their own experience.

    Posted by Mick Fealty on May 05, 2006 @ 10:08 AM”

    This was once a great site and a joy to contribute to. I just don’t have the time to sit for hours on end replying to every question counter question (I work long hours). Yes, I do snipe at comments made by some who for reason known only to themselves make statements that are just not true. Apparently, every man/woman from the unionist community (as painted by some contributors) have spent their lives and live for the sole reason to suppress the
    Republican/nationalist community (Catholics) and this is just not true.

    The vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland (not the North) are good and fair minded.

    Maybe the difference between myself and the main contributors is that I can remember the days when we lived in peace and looked out for one another. We can find a way forward but not at the cost of the denigration of another persons culture/heritage/religious belief.

    Some contributors seem to have a lot of time on their hands and do very little with that time. Baiting each other is not the way forward.

  • David Michael

    Er, far be it from me to come between the warring factions and their fun, but remember that great piece by PJ O’Rourke that Rory and TAFKABO were praising earlier on?

    I’ve OCRed it and upped it to a server as a little PDF. You can get it here: http://download.yousendit.com/BAC45F67499377B8

    BTW anybody know the legality of this? PJ’s intellectual property and all that?

    Not that I think he’d mind. I recall his interview on the Late Late Show when Pat Kenny asked him why he thought the IRA stopped fighting. “They ran out of idiots,” PJ replied.

  • hotdog x

    renaming londonderry ? it wouldn’t be renaming it would just be changing the name of the town back to its original correct name……

  • Reader

    hotdog x: renaming londonderry ? it wouldn’t be renaming it would just be changing the name of the town back to its original correct name
    But isn’t the original site of Doire outside the city anyway? And aren’t they actually planning to call it Derry, not Doire?

  • kensei

    “The bad apples line was most recently floated by Jim Gibney. What are we to make of IRA’s (reasonable) protests that it should not be judged by the killers of Robert McCartney?”

    There is a fundamental difference between State Forces and an illegal army. Forces of the state were involved in murdering people they were supposed to protect, and the idea that it was happening was at lease known in the highest levels of government, The response was to deny and cover up. Am I missing something here? Surely this is the most serious charge that can be levelled at both the forces and in the government? Seriously, have we been totally desensitised to how serious this is?

    It may be bad apples. But at some point, long, long short of everyone being involved, it becomes a systemic and more serious problem. The only way to establish this is with proper investigation. The IRA should be judged in the same terms – how widespread it is, how much people were acting outside the organisation, and how much those at the top knew. But it is somewhat more difficult to establish and investigate as the IRA is not a state force, and it should be also remembered that the IRA does not carry the obligations that the UDR did.

    Apologists be damned. There needs to be proper investigation into what the hell went on. If it is “bad apples” then that will be established. The lack of such transparency and rigour merely feeds into the perception that there is something serious to hide.

  • Rubicon

    Kensei – I entirely agree that the standards of a government are completely different and lead to the conclusions you identify.

    Yet, it (“it” being the “troubles”) wasn’t such a high minded engagement. The British did manipulate Loyalists to their own ends – that would have been acceptable if the British accepted the situation to be a war. They didn’t – but still wanted (and did) use the means that a war situation might justify.

    The PIRA and co. do the same. On Ms. Farrell’s (& co.’s) memorial is the inscription that she was “murdered” by the British. She was either on active service and killed “on duty” – or it wasn’t a “war” from the PIRA perspective either.

    Both sides want to have it both ways. This appears to be the reality on the ground.

    But – you are correct; the standards expected of a state are different and governed under law. The UK will be taken to task on this since legal mechanisms exist for this to happen. This should happen and, more’s the pity, it’ll no doubt be later rather than sooner.

    When and as it occurs – it won’t change the reality that the PIRA played fast and loose with their terms of engagement so that “volunteers” on active duty are “murdered” and they’ll not be subject to the same scrutiny.

    Not being subject to scrutiny is an eloquent message in itself.

  • stephen

    as a former UDR soldier, claims of collusion are fantasy.

    If we did have collusion, there wouldnt have been quite the number of active IRA men, or UVF men running around, would there?

    Nationalists conveniently forget we busted three loyalist bomb factories, and caught countless loyalists as well.

    This monumnet is well deserved, and is the least the former members of the UDR should get.

    You lot have your monuments to terrorists, whats the problem to erect a memorial to those who stood in the middle to try and save lives?