Donaldson: a simple execution

The London Independent’s Ireland correspondent is in no doubt, that this was a quinntessential killing of an informer in the time honoured, if ghastly, way.

There is no mystery about why he was killed, since the IRA makes no secret of its hatred and contempt for informers and agents in its ranks. Republican organisations have killed many over the centuries, including scores in recent decades. But the question is exactly who killed him and whether his assassination was sanctioned by the IRA leadership. The answer will determine the immediate political future of Northern Ireland.

The killing sent major tremors coursing through the Irish peace process, since if the IRA is judged to have been responsible this phase of the process will come to a halt. The IRA declared last night that it had “no involvement whatsoever” in the killing, an assertion which will now be thoroughly tested by police on both sides of the border.

He spoke to the Sunday World journalist who interviewed Donaldson a few weeks back:

The journalist Hugh Jordan, who found Donaldson in Donegal, said last night that he did not think the informer believed his life was in danger. He said: “He looked like a hunted animal. He was extremely depressed. The nerves in his eyes were trembling. He seemed like a man who didn’t think he would come to any harm. He did not see his life to be in any danger, but felt the only future he had was where he was, living in that dreadfully squalid situation.

  • David Michael

    Mick, is this sentence not the crucial one?

    “Many in its ranks harboured feelings of betrayal and hatred but everyone knew that his assassination would set back, probably for years, Sinn Fein’s hopes of getting back into government.”

    I’m not saying it is. I dunno. Seems an own goal for the shinners.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’m off to bed now, but I should have a fuller blog on this on the Guardian site tomorrow.

    After the usual caveats, etc.. The politically minded in the party certainly won’t be thankful for this turn of events, whoever did it.

    But then again, there is not going to be any government without Sinn Fein. As they used to say in pre Thatcher Britain: one out, all out!

    Night.

  • Hugh Jordan descibes DD as looking “like a hunted animal”, “extremely depressed”, and a man whose “nerves in his eyes were trembling”. Sounds to me like someone who knew that the big tout was out to get him, to cover his own tracks.

  • heck

    I know we all speculate on this site but should we not expect more from McKittrick than this. I always like his reports but, unless he has information he is not reporting, this is either spinning the government line or useless speculation.

    I hope I am not accused of “playing the man” but I expect better from Dave McKittrick.

    The way I look at all the possible perpetrators they are

    The IRA –they have form
    I can’t agree that they have motive. If they did this it kills the peace process.

    The “Securocrats”—they also have form.
    The motive could be to prevent DD blaming them for stormontgate/ identifying other spies/ torturing him to find out what he debriefed to SF. Some want to derail the peace process.

    Dissident republicans –they definitely have form
    The motive could be to get an informer without army council approval and win over republicans disgusted with DD and not supporting Adams et al. They may also want to see the peace process destroyed.

    Loyalists. The have form
    They have a motive to kill any fenian. They would also like to end the PP. However they are so stoned and infiltrated that they could not organize a piss up in a brewery without being run by the Brits. If it is them then I will blame securocrats.

    Some local thugs
    They could have been trying to harass DD and had a gun pulled on them. That could have resulted in a struggle and the killing of DD. This might explain the “severed arm” and the reported spent shells. (wouldn’t trained killers take their brass with them?) If this is the case McDowell might delay announcing any arrests to hit SF-hence McKittrick’s possible spinning.

    I don’t know anything but speculation belongs on a site like this not a national daily. David, if you want to speculate, give all rumors

  • heck

    a few hours later!

    what does our reaction to this say about us?

    my first though was “it’s the brits that did it”

    others on this site reacted “it must be the IRA”

    none of us know anything and I would ‘nt be suprised if it turned out to be some local lads who saw him in the paper and decided to rough him up.

    perhaps we just need to “chill out” now and again and enjoy a beer or two before we shoot of on the web.

    no matter what we think of donaldson remember that he was someone’s father and someone’s husband. Think what they are going through.

  • This beating around the bush as to who is responsible for Donaldson’s murder is pathetic.

    The British are responsible as they were the ones who outed him as their spy, resulting in any one of a number of parties actually killing him – dissident republicans, unionists of all varieties, securocrats who want to keep covered up their previous dirty operations involving him, etc.

    By far the least likely culprits are Sinn Fein and the IRA, as it only hurts their causes. And it is pathetic to act as if they did by the way in which he was killed as everyone knows how they killed informers in the past.

    And I say this as no supporter of SF or the Provisionals but one of the peace process – what London is increasingly undermining by its outing of its alleged touts – ‘StakeKnife’, Scap, and Donaldson – what have led to the killing of Joe O’Connor, Gerard Devlin and now Donaldson himself.

    It is barbaric governance.

  • Busty Brenda

    Trow you are full of it!LOL

    For anyone interested in McGuinness’ outlook and would like to ask him themselves he will he here on sunday nite.

    http://www.clonard.com/lenten2006/lentem_talks_2006.htm

  • David Michael

    I agree with heck. Whatever we rumour dogs think/thought about the man, there are people grieving today.

    And this helps neither the peace process nor society here in any way. The clock was turned back yesterday morning.

  • Keith M

    “Seems an own goal for the shinners.” This depends entirely on what game you think they are playing. The majority seem to believe that they are playing (albeit very badly) by the rules of the 1998 Belfast Agreement.

    I have said several times, that the SF/IRA leadership are far celever than this. Having achieved all the concessions from that agreement, they are now trying work in a way that would make a Stormont Assembly and a power sharing executive (which they worked to destroy and prevent for decades) impossiblle.

    Whether it be the delay in decommissioning, continued criminatlity or brutal murders like those of Robert McCartney or Dennis Donaldson, it is clear that SF/IRA have a long way to go before becoming a fully democratic party.

  • Toni

    The scenario of a IRA team infiltrated by the M15 carrying out this murder sounds like fantasy but we in NI have seen it all before…

  • As he was tortured, it would appear whoever did it now has information, and any spies remaining within SF will be worried that they are next.
    On a point of principle, he was guilty, and paid the price.
    It’s par for the course for the IRA.
    I don’t think anyone ought to be suprised by this. Loyalists would understand and agree.
    Nobody loves a traitor, and he was a Judas as he betrayed SF for money.
    The implications for the peace process, well we’ll see. SF’s priority will be to find out who are the reamining spies, this has been achieved.
    Expect more trouble, specially if the reports that suggest there are more spies in SF.

  • The Truth

    Intelligence Insider – do you actually need intelligence to get inside. Somehow – I doubt it!

    Let’s see – top tout in Rep Movement says let us jeopardise fifteen years work by killing an outed informer living in the backend of nowhere posing no danger to the movement as a whole cos, cos, cos – I just think we should.

    Rest of the movement might just question why top tout might be insisting on this drastic course of action, might just bring unwelcome attention on top tout. He mustn’tbe too smart.

    Maybe Insiders like our Intelligent Insider are trying to flog that old horse of a tout higher up the SF/IRA food chain than DD just to cause more suspicion and dissension in the ranks.

    You don’t need to read Jane’s to figure that one out.

    Tell me Intelligence, is your first name Walter?

  • p o neill

    the word around here is that DAAD did it…direct action against donaldson

  • Danny Morrisson is asking questions of the establishment (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/danny_morrison/2006/04/who_killed_denis_donaldson.html). He says:

    ‘Why would British involvement, rogue or otherwise, seem so fantastical? We know that members of British intelligence and the Special Branch ran loyalist murder squads; that as far back as the 1970s the Garda Siochana were infiltrated by the British; that during the conflict they allowed their agents in the IRA – such as “Stakeknife” – to kill. They allowed other agents to kill soldiers and policemen in order to establish and maintain their subversive credentials. In a desperate attempt to thwart Sir John Stevens’ inquiry they even burned down his offices! It was certainly a dirty war.’

  • bootman

    “As he was tortured,”—spirit level

    was he?

  • heck

    The start of this tread was the articles and editorial in the Independent. They are making a lot of allegations and stating them as facts including who killed DD and about his roll in stormontgate.

    Does this appear to anyone other that me that someone is spinning this story and using the independent and Mckittrick as one vehicle?

  • Mike

    Trowbridge H. Ford –

    “The British are responsible as they were the ones who outed him as their spy, resulting in any one of a number of parties actually killing him – dissident republicans, unionists of all varieties, ”

    What utter barking-mad drivel.

    “Unionists of all varieties”? Aye, your average middle-class UUP voter would be really interested in buying a gun and traipsing off to the wilds of Donegal to shoot a washed-up provo-turned-MI5-agent. Come to think of it, your average DUP voter, floating unionist voter or non-voting unionist man or woman on the street is really likely to involve himself or herself in the same scenario, aren’t they?

    Is their any chance of people not coming off with outlandish crap simply because they can?

    Or indeed people who describe themselves as ‘former handlers’ coming off with blatant drivel in order to give themselves some sort of air of know-it-all mystery?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    With any murder, the starting point is to look at means, motive and opportunity.

    Seems like dissident republicans and rogue elements within the security forces both had all three, whereas peace process republicans clearly fail the motive test. (As Tony Blair has already indicated.)

    Of these two prime suspects, one can only speculate on the degree of the means, motive and opportunity. As to means, this was a simple shotgun shooting carried out in an isolated farmhouse with neither electricity nor running water. (I’m presuming it didn’t have a phone line either.) Getting in and out of Glenties isn’t ideal certainly the killers could have been across the border within the hour, or to a safe house anywhere in Donegal/Sligo/Derry/Tyrone/Fermanagh. At such an isolated location the killers won’t have had any difficulty spotting a Garda presence a mile off. So clearly the means of carrying out this killing won’t have presented a difficulty to anyone.

    Motive? Here, the security forces have a much stronger impulse. Dissident republicans can’t be ruled out – for kudos, as a warning against informers in their own, reputedly riddled ranks – but these seem like fairly generic reasons. Possible, certainly, but these are clearly less compelling reasons than the security forces – about whom there can be no doubt Donaldson knew an awful of potentially compromising information. There is also the suggestion that elements within the security aparatus remain opposed to the peace process – at the peak of the Troubles the security budget here ran into billions per annum, so it would be naive to think there aren’t some elements who look back at that dark period as the “good old days” – and with Blair and Ahern’s latest big push due tomorrow, the timing would certainly be fortuitous for such elements.

    The dissidents might have had pull factor reasons to kill Donaldson but the security forces, or at least elements within, might have had a push factor. It’s the difference between doing something for profit and doing something for self-preservation. Neither can be ruled out but in terms of the imperative, which is stronger?

    As for opportunity, to whom does Donaldson’s death afford an opportunity? The Provos? Clearly nothing could be more damaging to the peace strategy they have been pursuing for perhaps two decades. The dissidents? Hmmm, hard to see what opportunity this event creates for them, but then dissident thinking has always tended to be pretty deranged.

    Rogue elements within the security forces? Perhaps those opposed to the peace process? In the same week the PMs are due to meet and unveil their grand strategy for restoration of the GFA? Clearly this murder is manna for such elements and provides an opportunity to stall progress for perhaps years to come.

    (I haven’t considered the possibility that loyalists were involved. Why? Well, firstly I think they have more to gain from Donaldson being alive. Secondly I don’t think they would have the capability of carrying out an assassination on the far side of Donegal. (And yes, this is despite my earlier having stressed that carrying out such a murder wouldn’t exactly have been rocket science.) Thirdly, if the murder was indeed carried out by a loyalist gunman (a possibility) it would most likely have simply been a case of security agents outsourcing the job. The culprit would still be within the security aparatus, even if the shooter was Ivan from Tiger’s Bay.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Keith M

    “I have said several times, that the SF/IRA leadership are far celever than this. Having achieved all the concessions from that agreement, they are now trying work in a way that would make a Stormont Assembly and a power sharing executive (which they worked to destroy and prevent for decades) impossiblle.”

    Why though? Please elaborate.

  • Mike

    “With any murder, the starting point is to look at means, motive and opportunity.

    Seems like dissident republicans and rogue elements within the security forces both had all three, whereas peace process republicans clearly fail the motive test.”

    Erm, feel like I’m pointing out the obvious here…revenge??

  • Mike

    Billy –

    ———————–
    Keith M

    “I have said several times, that the SF/IRA leadership are far celever than this. Having achieved all the concessions from that agreement, they are now trying work in a way that would make a Stormont Assembly and a power sharing executive (which they worked to destroy and prevent for decades) impossiblle.”

    Why though? Please elaborate.
    ———————–

    Don;t want to speak for Keith here, but off the top of my head, because publicly at least they claim to believe joint authority could be on its way in the absence of devolution, and they plan to be in government in the Republic. (and haven’t republican commentators’ like Danny Morrison said in recent times that republicans aren’t really that bothered about an Assembly and Executive anyway compared to the ‘other elements of the GFA’)

    They have a massive ‘all-Ireland agenda’ which they hope will pave the way to a united Ireland (and handily get round the consent principle) – the sticky problem is that under the Good Friday Agreement, they ned Assembly aprroval and therefore unionist consent before setting up any more North-South bodies. But with no devolution, a Dublin government with SF among its ranks simply has to persuade the British government on further ‘North-South co-operation’ until an all-Ireland polity is there is all but name anyway.

    Just a thought, like…

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Mike

    “Erm, feel like I’m pointing out the obvious here…revenge??”

    Hmm, perhaps, but that’s not the whole story. Certainly there will have been a lot of Provos who would have wanted Donaldson dead, but the sheer COST of such a murder would have been regarded as so prohibitive that Adams and McGuinness themselves felt moved to guarantee his safety from PIRA. Donaldson himself seems to have been sufficiently comforted that he did not leave the country, which must be a first for an outed informer or spy.

    With such a devastating downside, I don’t think revenge alone amounts to a motive. The two PMs have tentatively indicated that that’s the way they see it too.

    (Indeed peace process republicans probably had more to gain from Donaldson being alive, as a living symbol of the IRA’s changed mode, where spies are merely ostracised rather than murdered.)

  • Mike

    Billy –

    “Hmm, perhaps, but that’s not the whole story. Certainly there will have been a lot of Provos who would have wanted Donaldson dead, but the sheer COST of such a murder would have been regarded as so prohibitive that Adams and McGuinness themselves felt moved to guarantee his safety from PIRA. Donaldson himself seems to have been sufficiently comforted that he did not leave the country, which must be a first for an outed informer or spy.

    With such a devastating downside, I don’t think revenge alone amounts to a motive.”

    I’m not so sure. Individual provisional repuiblicans, or even leaders could simply decide to bump Donaldson off then deny, deny, deny. It’s worked well for them in the past. All SF has to do essentially is say “nothing to do with us squire” then sit tight and eventually it all blows over.

    Then of course there’s Keith’s scenario which I’ve added to a bit above, for those who like their conspiracy theories…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Let’s review.

    We have a dearth of hard evidence beyond the body and two spent shotgun shells, a few non-forensic descriptions of the state of the body and a great deal of speculation. Most have picked the perpetrator who fits best with their political beliefs, with a few flights of fancy, a few reservations for more fact and scant little holding fire.

    A great deal has been made regarding the near severing of D.D.’s hand, “at the wrist,” with comments ranging from the Mafia-esque to allusions to the Red Hand of Ulster. However, seeing as Donaldson was allegedly shot from the front with a shotgun, in the absence of better data, it is not unreasonable to posit that D.D. threw his arms up defensively prior to the first shot. Assuming a 12 gauge bore and double-ought buckshot, that’s nine .32 caliber projectiles per shot, of which it would only take 2-3 striking the wrist to “nearly sever” the appendage. That there was two shells only really tells us he was shot at twice, although extraction or ejection marks on the brass could inform us as to the nature of the weapon used (double barrel, pump or semi-automatic). That the shells were there at all suggests this was amateur hour, since the shells could be the source of several useful pieces of evidence.

    The short form: We *KNOW* less than squat. We can infer, guess, speculate and smear our favorite bogeymen, but we don’t *KNOW* anything more than the above and are certain of less.

  • Keith M

    Mike, you masy not want to speak for me but you’ve done a damn fine job. For several years I have questioned and subsequently doubted SF/IRA commitment to an assembly in N.I.

    The reason as you have also deduced is that they see some form of joint authority as a much better bet. A combination of a UK government which has no real commitment to keeping the union with NI and wants to be seen as being balanced between nationalists and unionists combined with an Irish government which is clearly on the side of nationalists would be such a lethal cocktail for unionists that they would subsequently roll over and fall into the “all Ireland” trap.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    “Individual provisional repuiblicans, or even leaders could simply decide to bump Donaldson off then deny, deny, deny.”

    There is of course the possibility that some individual connected to whomever – including an individual within PIRA – might have had an axe to grind with Donaldson. After all, it’s fair to assume that over the years DD was directly involved in the deaths and imprisonments of many of his former comrades. There must be a lot of guys out there who suspected DD of being responsible for the death of their friends / fifteen years in Long Kesh etc.

    So that’s certainly a possibility, in terms of motive. Finding Donaldson’s location would certainly be possible to anyone looking for him with any kind of tenacity, especially after the Sunday World disclosed his general locale.

    But if it WERE a mainstream, peace process republican, it would have to be one who considered the political devastation worth it. Twelve years after the first IRA ceasefire, it’s possible that some enraged volunteer was willing to jeopardise it all over Donaldson, but it seems less likely than the dissident/security agent scenarios.

    But if it WAS a freelance operation from within PIRA, what do you think the political ramifications ought to be?

    “It’s worked well for them in the past. All SF has to do essentially is say “nothing to do with us squire” then sit tight and eventually it all blows over.”

    I’d have to disagree with this very strongly. Throughout the peace process, events have taken place at remarkably inconvenient times for the republican peace strategy (Northern Bank and McCartney after the failed Dec 04 deal, Stormontgate in the same week that Trimble was threatening to walk out anyway – people always forget that). On each occasion the event has set back the restoration of the institutions by years. There is, unfortunately, every reason to suspect that this will happen again. I don’t think this is what SF want. Ministerial portfolios in the north helps them in the south. I think this is where their thinking lies.

  • George

    Keithm,
    I would say it isn’t joint authority that is attractive, rather the fact that no Assembly is further “proof” that Northern Ireland is a failed entity incapable of ever delivering for its people.

    Mike,
    “They have a massive ‘all-Ireland agenda’ which they hope will pave the way to a united Ireland (and handily get round the consent principle)”

    Don’t know how you make that leap. You won’t have a united Ireland without majority consent north and south. No way around that one. It’s British policy. I also recommend you read Article 3 of the Irish Constitution and note the word “only” in the article.

  • George

    Billy,
    “Ministerial portfolios in the north helps them in the south. I think this is where their thinking lies.”

    If that is the thinking, then Sinn Fein misread the southern attitude towards the northern assembly, in my view.

    The southern electorate will decide on its own when Sinn Fein are ready for government and whether they are in or out of Stormont will have nothing to do with it.

    Stormont has as much relevance to southern politics and attitudes as North Korea’s Supreme People’s Assembly.

    What will effect SF is whether there is a disturbing reason why SF isn’t in the Stormont assembly. The sad demise of Denis Donaldson isn’t it.

    His death reminds me of Yeats’ epitaph:

    “Cast a cold eye On life, on death, Horseman, pass by!”

    The Irish electorate will cast a cold eye on Donaldson’s life and death and pass by.

  • RmcC

    George:

    “The Irish electorate will cast a cold eye on Donaldson’s life and death and pass by.”

    Well observed, George. Sadly I believe you’re right.

  • Kristoff

    As a simple observer,I am suprised that DD stayed in an area where he could be found and without doubt, someone was going to go for him? I am sad and feel it is true that all the cold eyes who have observed such slaughter will still pass by and see some another squalid waste around the next corner!

  • Paul

    …….”shotguns”, “severed arm”??? Sounds like a mess…..I’m thinking this was personal….bet you knew them Denis…..

  • SHAY

    …Many might say dd, was slaine brutally,but lets be fair ,he was a top ranking official [in an organisation that is bringing peace to a nation that has lived under occupied forces for centuries]…alot of people have immigrated over the centuries to escape occupied rule and oppression]… and dd was one of the fortunate few that had the brains to take on the irish goverement and the british,how he comprised himself to mi5 is a mystery in itself…lets take things in perspective here ireland is nearley free[ bar the paisley crew of media commentators ] commpared to iraq and its civilians we are all free…nearly from…occupied forces…im not heartless if i told my father i was touting on my friends on any level of matters he would dis own me probably like you reading this… so dd was not touting on his family… but a nation and its ideals… and culture…now you savvy arm chair critics are thinking why did the boys kill him know?…well it aint rocket science…. spooks came in and cleared him…Manipulated the sunday world to publish …[the story]…giving clear blame to dissidents or pira…this man was relinqueshed of his position and told to go like scappati…he choose to live in his brother in laws house in donegal…[and had clear passage to vanish from mi5 or the pira] but who did he trust in the end?…his pay masters or his commarades in creating an all ireland that lives in peace…[well he choose to die in Eire…as he was warned by garda, his life was endanger]…such trust bestowed in a man…such betrayal to a nation…the real irony is he would be still there in a position of power of our people if it wasnt for davidtrimble and the face saving scenario… there will not be a creadible search for killers to dd… because who really cares?…a soldier is a soldier what ever side but a grass is neither here nor there… how lucky we are to express our views in a democracy[ so hard fought for in eire and still not propably gained] just bear a thought for the people of iraq…[and their tolerance to occuped forces and there abuse…like suffered in Eire] god blees the people of Iraq…for what have they done?…as we know when u want something ,so badly you set up new rules to get them ie guantanimo bay..[off the coast off cuba]…well we lived through interment as catholics…the muslims are now reasling[theres more to interment than the 70s and 80s … they ship u abroad now] how the irish was downcast and stereo typed is now happening to the muslims….how the imperiasits never change even with there 20th century democracy ideals… nobody delights in a death… but how many has dd comprimised in his duty to his pay masters? only he and mi5 and his maker knows…

  • DK

    So the theory is that the British/Securocrats did it to cover up some mysterious information that DD had. A few problems with this:

    1. DD would have told other people the “mysterious information” by now – not least his IRA debriefers and maybe others (“if I am killed, send this package to the papers…”. Killing him is hardly going to cover up any information he had at this late stage.

    2. Spies give out information, they do not receive it. So what he would know is limited.

    3. Why would the British or Securocrats risk an operation on Irish soil – if there was the slightest chance of it being compromised it would be a major calamity.

    4. The main aim of the British and the Securocrats has been to get everyone to stop using violence. This has lagely been completed – killing DD does not further this aim.

    5. Deniability. Even if DD did spout off his “mysterious information” it is all deniable by the British. After all, he had pretty much gone along with the Sinn Fein line after being outed, so he would be easy to deny.

    On another note, as an insider of Sinn Fein for 20 years, he would definiately have a lot of knowledge of Sinn Fein (e.g. who really robbed the Northern Bank) and maybe the threat that he would eventually leak information gives Sinn Fein a more powerful motive to bump him off that the British/Securocrats. However, this also falls foul of point 1. above.

    Most likely scenario – personal revenge by someone who feels they were personally impacted by DD’s actions.

    Any comments?

  • missfitz

    DK
    I’m with you all the way. No point going back point for point, but I see this as outside the circle of official or sanctioned acts, either by the RM or the Brits.

    You make a very important point about DD’s knowledge. He probably had nothing more to say so the motive to shut him up didnt exist.

    There really was something of a classic tragedy about it, the sad, isolated man, spurned by colleagues, friends and family. Took himself off like some ancient celt to the woods to live in a primitive fashion until the messengers found him(SW). Then the long wait until the knock on the door and peaceful oblivion.

    Who better to have done it than someone with a burning sense of personal wrong and a need to exact revenge. Anything more professional would have looked more professional

  • Billy Pilgrim

    George

    “The southern electorate will decide on its own when Sinn Fein are ready for government and whether they are in or out of Stormont will have nothing to do with it. Stormont has as much relevance to southern politics and attitudes as North Korea’s Supreme People’s Assembly.”

    You misunderstand me George. I don’t think that people in the south would take much interest in the minutae of a Stormont executive, even if it were up and running. However it clearly would be beneficial to SF to have a few of their big hitters coming down across the border in their ministerial limosuines to help with canvassing.

    Also, as a party seeking office in Dublin, they can use Stormont to establish some ministerial credentials, so when their political opponents mutter morbidly about an investment flight or North Korean economics, they can simply point to their form in Belfast as a means of rejecting it. It’s not that people in Cork particularly give a damn about the budget in Belfast, it’s about establishing SF’s image as a party that can be trusted with governance. One way to do that is to spend the next few years in office in Belfast cuatiously pursuing modest, slightly centre-left policies and trying not to fuck anything up too badly.

  • SHAY

    THE BEST FORM OF ATTACK IS SUPRISE DK,AND WITH TWO DAYS BEFORE BERTIE AHEARN AND TONY BLAIR MEETING, IT FITS INTO THE MENU OF CORRUPTION BY MI5 TO TOP DD,HE HAD NO MORE SECRETS TO TELL,[HE TOLD THEM 20 FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS]
    GOD KNOWS HOW MANY HE COMPRIMISED…HE SHOULD OF BEEN AIMING FOR A FREE STATE…THERES AN OLD SAYING DK, DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU,HE DONE THAT FROM BOTH SIDES,HE RENOUNCED HIS BAD DEEDS TO THE IRA COUNCIL AND WAS GRANTED CLEMENCY…[AND CHOSE TO LIVE IN HIS NATIVE LAND]…YOU MUST REMEMBER THE IRISH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AT THE BEHEST OF ENFORCED ENGLISH LANDOWNERS…[AND PAYMASTERS FOR CENTURIES]… SO I ASK YOU DK… WHY WOULD THE IRA KILL A MAN GIVEN CLEMENCY…2 WEEKS AFTER HIS COVER WAS BLOWN IN THE SUNDAY WORLD…DO YOU REALLY THINK THE IRA DIDNT KNOW HE LIVED IN HIS BROTHER IN LAWS HOUSE IN DONEGAL…[THAT THEY WORK ON THE SUNDAY WORLDS AGENDA]…I THINK NOT…WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF NEW AGE IMPERIALISM…HENCE THE EXACT REGIME THAT WAS SUFFERED BY THE IRISH CENTURIES AGO BY ARE FOREFATHERS[GOD BLESS THEM]…WELL I SUPPOSE WE WILL AGREE ON ONE THIN DK MAY DD REST IN PEACE…[BECAUSE HE WAS IN NO PEACE WHEN HE WAS TOUTING ON HIS FELLOW COUNTRY MEN AND COMMRADES] 1 QUESTION DK WHY DID DD GRASS?…

  • David Michael

    “WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF NEW AGE IMPERIALISM”

    I wonder what the fundamentalist Christians will make of this.

    (BTW, Shay, you’ll find the Caps Lock toggle on the extreme left of your keyboard, about halfway up.)

  • SHAY

    when you say we,does this constitute the iraqis suffering in iraq? [and sorry about the caps was angry with dk]

  • SHAY

    it suprises me after reading my views you pick up on the new age imperialism line [ie i was stating the obvious]…

  • David Michael

    SHAY

    ” [and sorry about the caps was angry with dk]”

    I forgive you 😉

    You made some excellent points, just a pity that the caps almost turned me off reading them.

  • David Michael

    SHAY

    Again mea culpa. I was emailing with a friend in the States and discussing New Age shite. Then I saw your post and “new age” caught my eye. Flippant of me. Blame the lateness of the hour.

  • missfitz

    One of the points I picked up from Shay was “why did DD turn in the first place”

    This probably puts me in the position of armchair detective, but perhaps some of the clues lie there? What was the original motivation for becoming a tout, what were the compromising factors at the time?

    Are there any feelings left over from that time? Did the shinners find out something unpalatable during his interrogation that leaked back to a family and provoked this repsonse?

  • SHAY

    I forgive you michael lol…my point about new age imperialism is its history repeating itself…

  • SHAY

    To mizz fit… your assumption that it was the Ira is in my mind to obvious…[remember the spooks work in strange and mysterious ways]…lets face the facts DD was outed by unionists in stormont…for david trimbles face saving act…[hed probably be there now if it wasnt for the outing he got] and in retrospect it suited whitehall…to get back to direct rule…the whole affair from DD’s outing stinks of a stalling act from the unionists [again] and downing street…in life the obvious answer is not always the correct answer, in my opionion there will be no arrets over DD’s demise, [time will tell]…

  • SHAY

    If you think i was wrong in my assumption and arm chair theory, read the Donaldson family statement that reads, the pira was not involved in the murder of DD…and blames the sole blame @ the british ss…so miss fit and david micheal, we all have theories in life [but like i have to convey to you , the obvious is not always the feasible answer]…we have to look beyond the realms of the obvious and comprehend whats the worst scenario… like DD did for the last 20 odd years…and the brethen he portrayed we pray for…

  • M. Gibbs, Chicago

    “… since the IRA makes no secret of its hatred and contempt for informers and agents in its ranks …”

    The IRA is nothing exceptional in this respect. No one loves a fink, a traitor, someone who betrays comrades, a country, a cause. Even if that person was probably blackmailed or tricked into doing it.

    What did Britain do to Lord Haw-Haw? What did the USA do to the Rosenbergs? Does anyone remember who Quisling was, and that Norway reintroduced the long-abolished death penalty just for him?

    Would anyone in Britain like to chance passing information to Al Quaeda, and what do they think would happen to them if they were found out?

  • Busty Brenda

    WHY DID HE GRASS?

    For the money Shay, why else.

    It seems from reports in todays papers that he was blasted thru the front door.

    That MO belongs to…….

  • M. Gibbs, Chicago

    Just substitute “informer” for “scab”:

    The Scab

    “After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.”

    “A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.”

    “When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.”

    “No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself.” A scab has not.

    “Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army.” The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

    Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.”

    Author — Jack London (1876-1916)

  • David Michael

    M. Gibbs

    “The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.”

    Believe me, I’m not being cynical but isn’t this how the business world works these days, in the island of Ireland, in America and just about everywhere else?

    Its opposite is called “integrity”. Hard (though not impossible) to find.

  • M. Gibbs, Chicago

    David Michael

    “Believe me, I’m not being cynical but isn’t this how the business world works these days, in the island of Ireland, in America and just about everywhere else?”

    Sadly, David, you are absolutely right. The name of the game is greed, and nearly everyone is playing it.

  • missfitz

    Brenda
    I dont know one way or the other, but I dont think it could have been just for the money. Do you really think that?

    He himself said it was about having been compromised in the past, and from what I HAVE heard, that seems to be a line that could be credible

  • SHAY

    very nice piece of diction about the scab m gibbs [god bless chicago]…

  • SHAY bolivia co

    DD was not comprimised with 30 pieces of silver like judas or sean callaghan… there was something beyond money here…a guess and wild assumption maybe sexuality[who knows what tempts the worst amoeba known to to this dimension]…i bet the old fellas in the irb have turned in there graves @ what DD has done to a country…its people and its patrons like Sir Roger casement,michael collins and arthur griffith [may they RIP]…also such contempt shown by DD to his fellow republicans Martin mcguiness Gerry adams and Martin ferris…[know doubt if they would have known of his covert life it would of been ended earlier for sure]…not to mention Bobby sands who DD served time in the slammer with…well Bobby im sure you not been visited in heaven by that tout…

  • David Michael

    SHAY bolivia co

    Such noble Christian sentiments 😉

    No Shay, seriously, I understand your anger. It was a creepy, godawful thing to do, betray all your mates like that, and for so long!!!

    Could be someone really had him by the balls. Let’s hope it wasn’t simply greed.

    However, something I’m not at all clear on. The “SF spy ring” that brought down the Assembly, was that ever clarified? Was it DD’s game or somebody else’s?

    If it was DD then it could hardly have been a SF spy ring. And if that’s the case why shouldn’t the Assembly be up permanently?

    Forgive me if all this has been gone into already but I didn’t keep abreast of developments on this.

  • missfitz

    Not sure if shay is trying to intimate some homosexuality into this debate… certainly thats not the line I have heard, try something younger?

  • SHAY bolivia co

    bottom line is when you are comprimised you have been for a very strong reason[by an agency]…9 times out of ten its for sexual encounters or misdemeanours…ask any politician…if it wasnt money[which it wasnt]…was it to progress the dup’s agenda [never]…to further mi5’s position in the political forum…[as ever]…money,whitehalls agenda,british imperialism,…none of these was the factors for DD becoming a full on super GRASS…i just ask the humble question… what makes a high ranking official of any political party turn re located witness to the prosecution?…

  • Susan

    SHAY bolivia co, do you you ever watch “The Sopranos”? If so, tell me, do informers within the mob turn informer out of ideology, or greed, or do they turn informer simply because they are told they, and perhaps others they care for, will spend the rest of their lives in jail if they do not?

    I believe Denis Donaldson said he’d been a paid British agent since the late ’80s. Ever talked to anybody that spent time in custody, been interrogated in that era? Oftentimes a brutal, harrowing experience, even if you’d done nothing illegal. And who knows what Donaldson was involved with in the ’80s? God knows why Donaldson turned informant, but after he’d collaborated with the authorities once I imagine he was an easy target to press for continued cooperation. The only blackmail necessary in that era would be to threaten not to protect his identity as a tout.

    One point Molonoy made hits on something I’d been wondering all week — why would Adams and McGuinness want to exterminate the one person in the most definitive position to clear SF’s name in Stormontgate?

    I’ve no idea what Donaldson’s handlers expected when they warned him he was about to be outed as an informer. My guess — and it is only an guess — is that the LAST thing they expected would be that he would run to Adams and McGuinness and tell all. Why? Because the “conventional wisdom” of his handlers dictated that if he did so, he’d be dead before he hit the ground. Donaldson, on the other hand, calculated that full confession to Adams and McGuinness was his best chance of survival. What bargaining chips did Donaldson believe he had in that conversation? Just old ties of friendship, from politics and from prison — Or an offer to tell the public and the media that the authorites had arrested him for being a Republican spy in Stormont, and suspended the Assembly, when the authorities knew all along Donaldson was really a paid British agent?

    I also can’t help wondering that if there had been a genuine Republican spy ring at Stormont, wouldn’t Donaldson, above all others, have been in position to prove it? If there was a spy ring and Donaldson could prove it, wouldn’t Special Branch and/or MI5 been more keen to protect his his life?

    On the other hand, it does seem counterintuitive that C-IRA or RIRA would kill Donaldson. For years they’ve been insisting that SF were collaborators and sell-outs, and here was Donaldson, by his own admission and agreed to by all to be a paid British agent. To the remaining louts still susceptible to the argument that physical force republicanism is the way to political progress wouldn’t Donaldson’s confession be a walking, talking recruitment poster for RIRA or C-IRA?

    On the other hand — and yes that’s three hands, and counting — Eamon Collins was butchered eight months after his testimony played a deciding role in the Sunday Times/Slab Murphy libel trail.

    One more thing. I’ve seen all kinds of theories on why Donaldson was in his brother in law’s cottage in Donegal. Isn’t it possible that his brother in law’s cottage in Donegal was simply the only alternative Donaldson could afford? How many people can actually afford to take off indefinitely for points unknown? Donaldson had to go somewhere.

    I’ve no idea if Donaldson’s handlers offered to take him into protective custody — did he ever say? If they did not, even when they knew he was about to be outed, doesn’t that seem unusual? He’d been in their employ for well over a decade.

    Donegal is not out of the reach of PIRA, but it is outside the jurisdiction of Special Branch and Donaldson’s former British handlers. Who did Denis Donaldson fear most, and why?

  • Susan

    Don’t all chime in at once lads, you’ll start a stampede.

    Perhaps a better question might have been “who feared Denis Donaldson the most, and why?”

    According to the link below in the Sunday Business Post Online, Sunday World journalist Hugh Jordan located Donaldson at his son-in-law’s cottage in Donegal with the assistance of ex-RUC man Colin Breen. The Post maintains Breen had and has close ties to Special Branch.

    If that is true, it is certainly not proof that Donaldson’s former handlers wanted him dead. It is however, further evidence of a marked lack of interest in keeping Donaldson alive.

    http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=13313-qqqx=1.asp

  • SHAY bolivia co

    well susan its nearly a plausible thoery, about the sopranos..the one thing is tho ,the italians would of topped him @ the sniff of him being a tout… your analogy of the sopranos did make me think…[how the italians and irish are similar]…and a good point you have made and one that i have been proposing for days is that who really wanted DD away…pira not really , they had the chance to end his life…mi5 plausible…udf or other affiliated agencys…plausible again…the motion of thought now should move onto why did DD stay in donegal…and did he believe in his soul would his former commrades come after him or his british paymasters?…again he was given clemency and time to relocate…by all 4 sides the garda[who told him numerous times his life was in obvious threat]mi5…the pira…and the irish goverment all offered him to relocate and go…for this is where i get confused…why did such a person stay in such a traceable location…vulnerable to all he has betryaed…my closing thought is will sean callaghan meet such a demise as DD?…….

  • Susan

    Shay, definitely it would seem that Seán Callaghan’s publishers should err on the side of caution of they are planning a book publicity tour for him.

    In the McCann piece Mick just blogged, McCann refers to Callaghan and the murder of a “prominent Kerry IRA man” in 1985. I’m pretty sure McCann means Corkman Sean Corcoran, murdered in a field in Kerry in 1985. If you scroll to the bottom of the link below, you’ll read Callaghan’s own admission of the competely conflicting reports he, Callaghan, has given over the years since Corcoran’s murder.

    http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1998/05/07/ihead.htm

    Relevant to these DD discussions? Perhaps not, but Callaghan’s conflicting versions of events do underline how unlikely it is we’ll ever know exactly who killed Denis Donaldson, or why.

  • Susan

    Shay, on second thought, I don’t know if Seán Callaghan is writing a new book — I was accidentally thinking of Kevin Fulton’s “Unsung Hero”, published within the last few weeks.

  • SHAY bolivia co

    susan…the proposed tour of sean callaghans new book signing did make me laugh…a rye sense of humour you have lol…his comment on radio 5 on the day of DDS demise is worth listening to…and before we get onto kevin fulton lets try and conclude why DD comprimised himself… WHAT WAS THE FACTOR THAT BROUGHT HIS DEMISE…as a paid informer…to his oppressers… remember when such an act like DDs demise happens…who contacts sean callaghan for his pedestal speech and comments for the bbc…[fruit for thought]… PS ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE…we are all arm chair thealogins…but the demise of dd goes beyond the borders of his former commrades[and i dont mean mi5]… i suppose the bottom line is … when my father sought work in london in 1964… he sought refuge in hotels and bed sits…hence…when he approached the doorway,there would be a sign… NO BLACKS…NO IRISH…NO DOGS… my long winded point is DD has potrayed his people of his generation… not mine…not his forefathers…ie history will never forget his treachery…still the burning thought in my mind is what comprimised such a high up official…he wasnt a sticky or soldier he was a member of parliament[in the end]…and trusted to be honest in the 70s…the people of the famine with there grass juices running from there mouth [im sure]… would throw a few fucks @ DD for his treachery to his people…and his own family in Ireland…[how they have to live with such a dark cloud no fault of there own]…and about loughal…who informed?…callaghan…donaldson…or somebody else…certain subjects like these make us wonder… GOD will forgive DD…[but many will not]…

  • Susan

    Well, SHAY, I must to bed, but you’ve mentioned Loughgall, and now Loughgall seems destined to be tomorrow’s hottest topic on Slugger.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2126914,00.html

  • Young Unionist

    Who killed Donaldson??

    Can we really believe that the British Forces killed Donaldson, do we really care? Of course his family are going to blame outside forces. If they blamed the Sinn Fein/IRA then they might be killed next. Without a doubt the finger can be pointed directly at the provos. Which republican party expelled Donladson?? Which republican army has a history a killing British Informers. All the evidence shows this. Why would the British Forces want to kill him, it would simply be a waste of shotgun shells.

    However, news just in, a remote cottage in Donegal has just came up on the market. Needs the installation of running water and electricity. Interested? give Marty or Gerry a ring. The previous owner gave his right hand for this property!!!!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Young Unionist: “Can we really believe that the British Forces killed Donaldson, do we really care? Of course his family are going to blame outside forces.”

    Then again, the Finucane family accuses outside forces — are they crazed as well?

    Young Unionist: “If they blamed the Sinn Fein/IRA then they might be killed next. Without a doubt the finger can be pointed directly at the provos.”

    On the basis of what evidence? Your inductive reasoning (a.k.a. W.A.G.) doesn’t count.

    Young Unionist: “Which republican party expelled Donladson?? Which republican army has a history a killing British Informers. All the evidence shows this. Why would the British Forces want to kill him, it would simply be a waste of shotgun shells. ”

    Would it? To take the Finucane example, what was to be gained by his death by “British forces?”

    Young Unionist: “However, news just in, a remote cottage in Donegal has just came up on the market. Needs the installation of running water and electricity. Interested? give Marty or Gerry a ring. The previous owner gave his right hand for this property!!!! ”

    Puerile. Simply puerile.

  • susan

    Denis Donaldson was a human being, not a punchline. I can’t imagine what his family’s going through.

    Back to the investigation. A source identified only as a “senior officer” of the PSNI, interviewed by the Telegraph, went out of his way this afternoon to dispute the rather sensationalistic information on the Times Online article:

    “The source suggested the motive behind the Donaldson shooting is likely to be “as simple as someone wanting revenge.”

    He had no information either to support suggestions that a dissident republican gunman may have been hired by individuals within the mainstream IRA to carry out the shooting.

    “They don’t get on for a start, and we haven’t seen any sign of the Continuity (IRA) doing anything of that ilk,” the source said.

    He posed the question: “If you were in the Provos, would you rely on the Continuity to do anything for you?

    “There would be a lot of risks and chances around that.”

    Security forces on both sides of the border – working on detailed intelligence information from inside the organisations – have been able to disrupt many of the planned dissident attacks.

    The source who spoke to the Belfast Telegraph suggested that Donaldson would have been more valuable to the dissidents alive.

    The revelation that he was an agent was deeply embarrassing for the mainstream republican leadership.”

    Here’s the link to the entire article:

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=686429

  • SHAY bolivia co

    Its the 8th anniveresary of the Good friday agreement…has anything changed?…

  • Young Unionist

    Dread Cthulhu: Is Donaldson Finucane? Eh last time i checked i dont think so. U can use excuses to try a find a way to riddle out of the truth, are u sayin the IRA dont kill informers? are you sayin Donaldson wasnt expelled from Sinn Fein, cause if you are then wake up and smell the reality cause u need ure head fixed

  • Twinkle

    Perhaps it was just boring old robbery??

    Break-in at isolated cottage – meets with resistence, happens all the time, probaby gypos??

    Twinkle

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Young Unionist: “Is Donaldson Finucane? Eh last time i checked i dont think so. U can use excuses to try a find a way to riddle out of the truth, are u sayin the IRA dont kill informers? are you sayin Donaldson wasnt expelled from Sinn Fein, cause if you are then wake up and smell the reality cause u need ure head fixed ”

    Ah, the ad homimen attack… charming.

    What I am saying, Y.U., since you need it explained, is that the alleged force of “law and order” in Ulster have been known to do things that are A) counter-productive and B) not in their role as the alleged forces of law and order.

    The fact of the matter is that we, the public, have little in the way of substantive fact to make any sort of responsible accusation or logical deduction. Now, while I admit you haven’t let such trifles get in your way, its hardly something to announcing with pride. Some of the grown-ups, “Young Unionist,” might want for a few more facts to come in before sounding the fool, like Big Ian did with the torture charge.

  • susan

    Twinkle, Glenties is — or was — best known for its five victories in the Tidy Towns competitions and the Magill Summer School. We are not talking the badlands here..