Nationalists condemn Dublin rioters…

Alban Maginness: “It is disturbing that marchers have been prevented from peaceful demonstration. This action of extreme republicans simply plays into hands of those of unionist right who cannot conceive unionist rights being upheld in a New Ireland.” Gerry Adams: “There is no justification for what happened this afternoon in Dublin. Sinn Féin had appealed to people to ignore this loyalist parade and not to be provoked by it. Our view was that it should not be opposed in any way and we made that clear”. Sinn Fein Dail Deputy Sean Crowe:

“Willie Frazier and the Love Ulster campaign came to Dublin today to be provocative and get a reaction. Sinn Féin urged people not to be provoked and to stay away and the vast majority of Dubliners, including members and supporters of Sinn Féin, did just that. It is disappointing that a small number of individuals did exactly what Willie Frazier wanted. There is absolutely no justification for the disgraceful scenes, which occurred in the city centre this afternoon. I would call on those involved to end their confrontation with Gardaí immediately.”

  • Pete Baker

    Mick

    Might as well note the other available quotes, so far – RTÉ report

    President Mary McAleese said: ‘The unnecessary violence which erupted in Dublin city centre today is totally unacceptable.’

    The Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, who witnessed the aftermath of the violence on O’Connell Street, said there was no excuse for what he termed ‘disgraceful scenes’.

    Mr Ahern said: ‘It is the essence of Irish democracy and republicanism that people are allowed to express their views freely and in a peaceful manner.

    ‘People who want only to attack gardaí and property have no respect for their fellow citizens.’

    Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said today’s actions are those of vicious thugs, and represent not only an attack on the police and property but also an attack on our democracy.

    The Tánaiste, Mary Harney, described the violence as ‘most unfortunate and counterproductive’.

    Labour Party leader Pat Rabbitte said the violence has brought shame to our capital city.

    ..

    Republican Sinn Féin, which organised what it said was a peaceful demonstration against the parade, claimed it was ‘irresponsible’ of the authorities to allow the march to go ahead.

    Jeffrey Donaldson of the DUP, who was in Dublin today for the march, said he was ‘appalled’ by the violence.

  • finbar

    Dermot Ahern statement below: links it to wider issues.

    Statement by Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dermot Ahern on violent scenes in Dublin – 25th February 2006

    ·I condemn the scenes of violence witnessed in Dublin today.

    ·All efforts to provoke sectarian conflict on our island must be vigorously opposed.

    ·To that end, I call on all political leaders to distance themselves from today’s actions and to roundly condemn all such efforts.

    ·There can be no place in modern Ireland for sectarian attacks, or efforts to exploit such attacks for political gain.

    ENDS+++

    25th February 2006

  • slug

    “One of the buses carrying them home was attacked by stone throwers as it approached the border town of Dundalk in County Louth.

    Ulster Unionist, Michael Copeland, who was on board, said the rioters had nothing to offer society.”

    A bus gets pelted because the people inside were unionist.

    🙁

  • Tiny

    1.A free kick to all those unionists who regard the Republic as hostile.
    2.how was the march going to promote the cause of victims in any case

  • Tiny – it has been remarked on before that they were marching as a protest to call on the Dublin government to hold an enquiry into he state support of the IRA. That seems to have been lost in a media referring to it as a “Love Ulster” march.

  • How are Unionists going to be involved in the aftermath, how do they want the Free State to react? (Rather than ‘its appalling’/’disengagement ‘ by the Unionists)

    OFF-TOPIC:

    Is it optimistic of me to consider a council of the Isles to take over from bipartisan Dublin/London pointless dialogue when Edinburgh and Cardif are going to have as good a voice as any, and promote a range of viewpoints with a desire for progress on (m)any issue(s) rather than a log jam and a holding of democracy to randsom by the DUP/Sinn Fein. Scotland and Wales have their own forms of devolved government who’s progress or lack of progress would give a breath of fresh air to the current agenda. Of course they may consider it an SEP (Someone Elses Problem).

    A Wider Celtic conspiracy to replace the pan-nationalist agenda, it would be nice if Dublin could be a focus for people from Scotland and Wales, rather than for them to fall by default towards London.

    Turloch

  • Comrade Stalin

    Love Ulster is an organization which would rather engage in silly stunts rather than work towards genuinely improving things and securing a permanent end to all violence in Northern Ireland. Why can’t unionists stop this nonsense and just sit down to all party talks ?

    That said, the attacks on them are an outrage. Unfortunately, those attacks will make the LU silly agenda appear to have credibility.

  • heck

    I have said on this site that the problem in northern Ireland was driven by unionist bigotry. It looks like the Free state has a few bigots of their own.

    The best thing would have been to ignore these “love ulster/hate taigs” marchers.

    Now they have a bunch of free publicity and look like victims.

  • anon

    What about what the Dublin people want?

    It’s not up to michael mcdowell to decide that the ORANGE ORDER march down our most historic street. The scenes in Dublin today were disgusting and although i don’t speak for the whole of Dublin i don’t think any dub wants these pretenders marching on our streets. KEEP THEM OUT.

  • TAFKABO

    Now they have a bunch of free publicity and look like victims.

    I wouldn’t worry too much if I was you.Most of them have had family members killed by the IRA, but that hasn’t granted them victim status in the eyes of most Irish people, so I doubt todays events will.

  • Realist

    “It’s not up to michael mcdowell to decide that the ORANGE ORDER march down our most historic street”.

    Anon.

    The Orange Order were not attempting to march down your “most historic” street.

  • CS Parnell

    The “Free State” – would these republican loonies ever get the message that the people of Ireland want nothing to do with their disgusting policies and that the country’s name is “Ireland”.

  • Keith M

    anon “It’s not up to michael mcdowell to decide that the ORANGE ORDER march down our most historic street.”

    Actuallly it is. We have this thing called a “general electon” every 5 years (I know the concept of democracy is pretty new to some republicans) and we elect people to make decisions like this. If you don’t like them, you’ll get a chance to change the government next year, but EVERY party in the Dail has supported McDowell in this decision so best of luck trying to find someone who doesn’t support the right of free demonstration.

  • Henry94

    “It’s not up to michael mcdowell to decide that the ORANGE ORDER march down our most historic street”.

    It is in fact. As the Minister responsible he is the one who has to make the decision. I don’t know of a single TD who objected to the decision either so it certainly had sufficient democratic legitimacy.

    What was the democratic basis for the riot, the vandalism and the robbery that took place on our most historic street today?

  • Dave

    Sinn Fein Dail Deputy Sean Crowe:

    “Willie Frazier and the Love Ulster campaign came to Dublin today to be provocative and get a reaction.”

    There you go.. no matter what unionists do to protest to highlight an injustice SF/IRA will always say it was to provoke a reaction.

    Just remember those who attacked the police also had the option not to attack the police. Unfortunatly their bigotry was the main driving force behind theeir actions, this will always be the case.

    Believe me, no unionist was surprised at the outcome. The poor old Irish it is always someone else to blame isn’t it? But not this time.

    Republicans failed to be democratic and the Irish Government failed to let democracy take place, there you have both the government and the people of the republic of Ireland failed on all accounts.

    Some say that a united Ireland has been set back many years/ Have I got news for you, unionists don’t want a United Ireland so it’s not going to happen and I believe that todays actions by the Irish in Dublin has cemented that belief.

  • fair_deal

    from fair deal

    Most of nationalist Ireland goes for clear condemnation while the Sinn Fein Dail Deputy does even not manage a condemnation followed by a but, he begins with blaming the Unionists.

    Sinn Fein adopted a motion for engagement with the Unionist community and Gerry Adams highlighted it as one of five key strategic aims of republicanism. How do Sean Crowe’s comments fit with the policy and aims of the republican movement?

    “How are Unionists going to be involved in the aftermath,”

    Unionists will become the discreet blamehounds. Its all terible but…. Followed by others trying to turn the heat onto the Garda (whose only mistake was to think the threat came from the Love Ulster marchers).

    “how do they want the Free State to react?”

    It’s their country so they can react how they wish. They have their own laws and the expectation would be they enforce them.

  • john

    Imagine that the majority of the people in NI decided to create a UI with the ROI.
    Then imagine the negiations that would be required between London and Dublin to agree the following:
    1. A new UI natinal flag.
    2. A new UI national anthem.
    3. A possible northern assembly based in Stormont.
    4. A new UI education system.
    5. Reducing the ‘Irish’ identity of the new UI, so as to accommodate increased ‘British’ identity in the new UI.

    Imagine the riots that would take place if all these changes and many more were to take place so as to ensure that the new UI was equal for all the people of Ireland, including the Unionists.

    Remeber a new UI would need to less ‘Irish’ and more ‘British’ to reflect the accommodation of Unionists.

  • call

    I think its a bit rich for unionists to have a go at the shinners about todays events especially considering the half hearted condemnations during 6 days of loyalist destruction on the streets of Belfast following the Whiterock orange order parade last summer.

    I wonder if any of the orange order members due to take part in today’s parade were on the Springfield Road last summer colluding and organising the mass street riots with loyalist paramilitaries.

    If the orange order and those who attend and watch parades are happy and content with the sight of uvf/uda commemoration banners at parades and are happy to watch bands with paramilitary links, they can’t really complain about other lunatics doing the same thing

  • Brian Boru

    “Imagine that the majority of the people in NI decided to create a UI with the ROI.
    Then imagine the negiations that would be required between London and Dublin to agree the following:
    1. A new UI natinal flag.
    2. A new UI national anthem.
    3. A possible northern assembly based in Stormont.
    4. A new UI education system.
    5. Reducing the ‘Irish’ identity of the new UI, so as to accommodate increased ‘British’ identity in the new UI.

    Imagine the riots that would take place if all these changes and many more were to take place so as to ensure that the new UI was equal for all the people of Ireland, including the Unionists.

    Remeber a new UI would need to less ‘Irish’ and more ‘British’ to reflect the accommodation of Unionists.”

    I could tolerate 1,2,3,4 but the ‘British’ identity should be for people themselves and not linked to the State. We are proud of our independence and don’t consider ourselves British.

    I don’t accept that the majority of people or even a large % of the people would riot over these changes. These scenes today are almost unheard of in the South. They are a miniscule number of people (300). Don’t forget the 4.2 million who didn’t riot – including me. I resent being lumped in with the tiny number of did. Kindly stop doing that Unionists!

  • Brian Boru

    That last “Pete Baker7” post was me, Brian Boru (Again).

  • TAFKABO

    These pictures sickened and shocked me more than anything else I’ve seen today.
    It’s some poor asian guy being dragged out of a Centra supermarket and set upon by the mob.

    The pictures can be found here

    http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~z/today/

    I found the link at indymedia here.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74504

    I don’t know who these people think they are representing, but maybe we can all agree that we need to do something about the bastards?

  • nonpartitionist

    Bertie condemns republican violence in Dublin City Centre eh? Wouldn’t have wanted him on my side in 1916. Bertie, when people claim sovereignty over part of your country, you resist. When they come and expect apologies for that resistance they really are dreaming. Get off your West Brit lackey knees and start campaigning for a united Ireland – the aggregate will of the majority of the population in the island in case you’ve forgotten (you didn’t have the guts to put ‘Who wants a united Ireland?’ on the Good Friday Agreement ballot paper did you, just in case the punters voted yes). FF the republican party – yes, sure you are Bertie, when you prop up a sectarian head count six county statelet.

  • Kathleen (Kathy C)

    Posted by Kathy C no matter what name is on the bottom ;o(

    Hi all,

    Finbar…I agree with you! I stated on another thread that I’m sure there were many in the Irish Press and Irish politicans who were against the Easter Rising of 1916 and those who stood up to the british….
    in many ways those people who opposed the unionist/orange order from marching in Dublin have a point…it is simlilar to Jews and Poles not wanting a neo nazi group from marching on the streets of the Warsow Ghetto. …
    or the KKK marching in Harlem….it is morally wrong and I think the orange orader members/unionist coming down to march in Dublin is also morally wrong….

    Posted by Kathy C no matter what name comes after this…and it is funny that no one else seems to be having this problem…just me Kathy C

  • G-man

    I really feel the need to respond to the last two posts (whoever wrote them !).

    I am not a supporter of Willie Frazer, the DUP, the OO etc etc. However, I am an Irish person living in Belfast who is happy to remain part of the British family. Yes, I am Irish and I do not want Northern Ireland to be united with the RoI.

    The point that there should be a UI because a majority on the whole island wants this is nonsense. A huge majority on the whole island supported the GFA in a democratic referendum and therefore accepted that NI would remain part of the UK as long as a majority within NI wished it to be so.

    Irish Republicans need to wake up to the fact that the Irish are not a homogenous grouping – there are different groups of Irish people with a very different view on our relationship with GB.

    To draw analogies between extreme loyalists and the Nazis or the KKK is stupid and those who make such statements are as blinkered and narrow minded as the people they criticise.

    G-man

  • G-man

    I am also struck by the irony that Irish republicans, who apparently support a UI, criticise Ulster people for parading/protesting in Dublin.

    G-man

  • Nonpartitionist

    Love Ulster; Loathe sectarian six county statelets though

  • Bemused

    Republican Sinn Féin, 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1
    Telephone: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757
    e-mail: s a o i r s e @ i o l . i e

    229 Falls Road, Belfast, BT12 6FB
    Telephone 9031 9004 Fax: 9031 9863

    Just in case anyone wants to vent their anger. I’ve already sent a couple of vicious e-mails. Maybe now some unwanted pizzas/taxis/piles of manure?

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s weird that there are scumbags coming on here to directly justify (as “finbar” did) what was not a dignified counter-protest but a “let’s smash it up” session in Dublin city centre. The people behind this rioting are a tiny minority who have NO electoral representation in any part of Ireland. They are scum and they deserve a direct one-way trip to the ‘Joy.

    However I’m getting a bit irked at the unionists who seem to be taking the easy route and going after the RoI. Folks, why don’t we have a hunger strike march down the Shankill and then you can tell me how loyalists would uphold a march that they disagreed with. I guarantee you that the scenes would be far, far worse than those seen in Dublin yesterday.

    What is this FAIR crowd all about anyway ? Why are they only interested in Protestant victims of IRA violence ? Plenty of people who were not Protestants died as a result of IRA atrocities.

  • IJP

    CS

    Spot on, of course.

    It is legitimate for any democratic observer to point out, however, that yesterday’s events illustrate perfectly the fundamental flaw in Irish Nationalism.

    For the underlying idea is that sectarianism is caused by partition (ergo if we unify Ireland, suddenly sectarianism will disappear). This always was plainly nonsense. But it’ll be interesting to see how many people who bought that previously accept the nonsense of it now.

    The six northeastern counties of Ireland are poisoned by sectarianism, separation and segregation, and this poison always has the potential to leak across the border or over the water. Whether they form part of the UK, the Irish Republic or Mali makes no difference, they would still be so poisoned.

    Meanwhile for years I and my colleagues in the Alliance Party and other ‘Centre-Ground’ groupings have had vitriol thrown at them for having the guts to point to our poisoned reality and try to do something about it, without condition. Yet it is those politicians who talk simple solutions (such as ‘Get rid of the border’), as if they will remove that poison tomorrow, who are misrepresenting reality. It’s time they faced up to that, but I’m not optimistic…

  • Brian Boru

    IJP, it should be noted that there is no sectarianism in border counties with large Protestant minorities like Donegal.

  • Brian Boru

    In the South I mean.

    (Brian Boru)

  • What is this FAIR crowd all about anyway ? Why are they only interested in Protestant victims of IRA violence ? Plenty of people who were not Protestants died as a result of IRA atrocities.

    Time for you to play the another card now methinks…

    Why only Protestants…. because it is lead by real Protestant victims, trust me, in Fermanagh alone there are a significant number of Republican groups who may have no connection loyalist violence whatsoever but still stride to use the ‘victims’ title to make a political point. PATHETIC

  • Mickhall

    Meanwhile for years I and my colleagues in the Alliance Party and other ‘Centre-Ground’ groupings have had vitriol thrown at them for having the guts to point to our poisoned reality and try to do something about it, without condition
    “part of post by IJP”

    IJP,

    IJP,

    I do not mean to be offensive but IMO you and your party have set very firm conditions, i e the border remains and I have to say I feel if a small majority voted for reunification your party would oppose it or implode. So I’m not so sure you sit at all as comfortable as you wish to appear on your higher moral ground. What are you saying, all those who oppose the border are stoking sectarianism? The border was brought about by force of arms and against the wishes of a democratic majority and was then maintained by sectarianism. For you then to imply that those who continue to oppose that injustice are in someway the basis of the norths sectarianism is to put it mildly, a bit rich.

    Now there is a strong argument to be put that reunification cannot be had by force of arms, not because to attempt it cannot be justified as it clearly can be.[if it is OK to partition the island by force of arms why can it not be equally correct to reunite it by force of arms] But because even if successful a reunited Ireland brought about by force of arms, like the northern statelet would not be worth a row of beans as it would contain a sizable, permanently politically disgruntled minority.

    However by your refusal to understand the true bases of sectarianism in the north, surly you are making a healing of wounds and voluntary reunification an ever distant event by reinforcing b i g o t r y. It is to the credit of many Irish Republicans that they have come to realize you cannot build a nation once again if a sizable minority are co-opted into it against their will. Incidentally, many Republican’s have reached this conclusion due to there personal experience within the northern Statelet. After all they represented a disgruntled minority and look at the mayhem they achieved.

    As to the events in Dublin yesterday, Im to old in the tooth having seen so called riots manufactured in to many parts of the world to get hot under the collar about it.

    All the ingredients where present in O’Connell Street, the deliberately provocative March is given permission only to be called off at the last minute, the authorities just happen to fail to cordon off building works which allow certain protesters, who are determined to riot a ready supply of bricks, scaffold poles etc. The injured policeman who drops at the feet of at least ten TV camera crews, and finally the setting on fire of the odd Mercedes to provide the backdrop for the photo journalists to take the end of day snap of the 21st century policeman in full protective riot gear with the city supposedly burning behind them, the purpose being to put the fear of god into all those nice middle class people with a similar car in their drive whilst they eat their breakfast while reading the paper etc the following morning.

    [PS they say in the 1930s the London Met had a horse which was trained to fall over on cue during street protests so as to gain sympathy for the police via the media.]

  • Comrade Stalin

    FYU:

    What’s your point ?

    Groups (coming from anywhere) whose objective is to emphasize the suffering of one group of victims over another are clearly working to an agenda outside of ensuring that all of the victims here are treated equally and are served justice equally. The shadowy involvement of the UDA in this grouping emphasizes this point.

  • Point is if you have:

    A. A Woman whose son was murdered by republican unit, and with the only reason he was targeted out was he was a part time UDR man

    B. A Woman whose son was killed by the Army while he was attempting to plant a device under a UDR’s mans car etc.

    Now have you any bright ideas on how ladies A & B would be able to work together?

  • deaglan

    looks like the parade didnt even get to start……..GOOD, what the f@@k did they think was going to happen after loyalists have planted so many god damn bombs in dublin, did they think that we were going to make them bloody sandwiches….

  • deaglan

    See commenting policy – moderator

  • fair_deal

    From fair_deal

    Comrade Stalin

    “Plenty of people who were not Protestants died as a result of IRA atrocities.”

    For your information, at the first Love Ulster rally on the Shankill Road Willie Frazer’s speech raised the hundreds of Catholics that had died at the hands of the IRA.

  • deaglan

    bla bla bla, aint willie bloody brilliant. How many republican marches happen on the shankill road to commemerate the people who have lost their lives at the hands of unionist/loyalists. ask we willie if we can organise a parade on the shankill and tell him to ask the people to remain calm, you and i both know that this situation would never occur so what makes you think that you can give blood and thunder to stop republicans marching but would like to make a mockery of yourselves in dublin. Shame on you for using people who tragically lost their lives so you can make your sad little political stunt. You’s are sick in the head

  • davo

    If love ulster is about victims why did they have paramilitary linked bands at their parade on the shankill road.

  • deaglan

    exactly, and they had loyalist linked bands in dublin too, hypocrits

  • Comrade Stalin

    FYU :

    Now have you any bright ideas on how ladies A & B would be able to work together?

    Not easily. But what I know is that they can, and do. I attended a talk once do to with the community relations council, and one of the guys speaking was an individual whose wife had been murdered in the Shankill bomb. That individual has subsequently been closely involved in cross-community work and I believe he has even met some prominent republicans.

    Is that easy ? No. But is it necessary ? Yes. Love Ulster and FAIR do not offer the solution to our problems in this country. Rather than justice, they want revenge. They have a right to be heard and they have a right to have their concerns addressed, but it would be foolish to think they are in any way serious about working to remove the causes of injustice in this country.

    In fact this entire debate has in itself shown how hypocritical everyone in this country is. Republicans are sitting here telling everyone how much of a problem it is to have parades around the place with ex-paramilitaries, when they justify having people like Sean Kelly doing steward work whenever they’ve got their own thing going on. Unionists are always going on about how paramilitaries have no place in the future of the country, and there they are parading up and down with paramilitary-linked individuals in tow. This whole place is a complete farce unto itself.

    fair_deal:

    For your information, at the first Love Ulster rally on the Shankill Road Willie Frazer’s speech raised the hundreds of Catholics that had died at the hands of the IRA.

    Then why does Frazer and his troop keep mentioning the word “Protestants” whenever they are on the road ? A point he may have, but the Peace People they certainly ain’t.

  • Realist

    “hypocrits”

    No….the hypocrits are those who get apoplectic at the thought of unionists having a peaceful parade in Dublin, but would seeth if a Hunger Strike march in the United Kingdom was denied later this year.

    Presumably the Loyalists who attacked a recent Republican parade in Glasgow (a parade complete with bands linked to paramilitaries) were not bigoted sectarian scum.

    I mean, what did the organisers think was going to happen in Glasgow….after republicans have planted so many god damn bombs in the UK, did they think that the loyalists were going to make them bloody sandwiches….

    The well woven republican tapestry of “everything bigoted and sectarian is loyalist/unionist” is beginning to go threadbare at the edges. Soon it will be in tatters.

  • deaglan

    just as i thought u are an idiot hahaha, wats wrong? did the bus man not give you a refund?

  • Realist

    The comments attributed to nonpartitionist% are mine (Realist).

    Deaglan,

    “just as i thought u are an idiot hahaha”

    Any chance of playing the ball, not the man?

    “wats wrong? did the bus man not give you a refund?”

    If you mean the bus to Dublin, no – I was not in Dublin yesterday.

    Whilst I have sympathy with some of the aims and objectives of the planned parade yesterday, there were aspects to it that I could not agree with, and which I found extremely hypocritical.

  • deaglan

    my point exactly, hypocritical!!! there was no good intentions on the march yesterday, they knew what would happen but they wanted to play the victims…….again.

  • fair_deal

    After the Whiterock riots republicans ran to the high ground berating Unionism and Loyalism for the violence and the equivocal reaction to it. Was it opportunist or the sign they were rejecting militant street politics? All the whataboutery on here makes it clear it was opportunism.

    FYU raised the point about the value of Unionists coming on here, I would have usually rejected the notion but the once good mix of open or opening minds of every political hue (with a small smattering of the usual loonies) who came on here for some sort of debate and examination of one anothers beliefs has faded away.

    That mix seems to has been replaced largely by a set of ogra sinn fein types. They seem to believe that by repetition of provo process-speak and ad nauseam “Unionist are bigots/anti-peace” etc that the Unionists on here will have the scales drop from their eyes. We won’t.

    We just get monumentally bored of listening to the same republican crap that hasn’t convinced one Unionist to consider supporting a UI ever nor ever will.

  • fair_deal

    09.13 was from fair_deal

  • From the pen of PopeBuckfastXVI…

    Disgusted with the partitionist thieving fascists in Dublin yesterday. I hope the march is rescheduled and takes place as soon as possible, and hopefully the Gardaí will borrow some water cannon from teh PSNI to deal with the idiots.

    Nice way to show your love for your country, smashing up a bit of it, clowns. Nice way to show your support for reunification, by denying your fellow Irish people the right to demonstrate in the capital city. Fucking idiots…

  • DK

    Seems that the “riot” was an attempted couter-demo by RSF that was then hijacked by people with a grudge against the Guards, anarchists out to attack shops, hoodies out to loot said shops, and anyone else with a violent disposition and spare time on their hands.

    The march & RSF demo may have started the problem, but the local non-aligned mentalists seem to have out-numbered the political mentalists, which is encouraging. Sort of.

  • Realist

    Deaglan,

    Straight question.

    Do you uphold and defend the right of unionists (including members of the loyal orders) to peacefully parade in Dublin?

  • owngoal

    Did the SDLP’s proposals on All-Ireland policing include public order training for the garda from the PSNI or allowing them to borrow the landrovers and water cannon? 😉

  • IJP

    mickhall

    With respect, you’ve entirely missed the point.

    The Alliance Party does not set the border as ‘a condition’ – the Agreement does.

    The Alliance Party is simply making the point that a United Ireland doesn’t solve sectarianism – a point aptly demonstrated on Saturday.

    And please lose the historical stuff – every international border was established by conflict. But the world as a whole has moved on to an enlightened age where we determine such things by dialogue. Or at least most of it has…

  • Richard Dowling

    Surely, the epithet nationalist should not be used to describe
    people in the SDLP, who are in the Social Democrat and
    Labour gene pool. Natonalism is much more a characteristic of
    Sinn Fein- Republican Sinn Fein-IRA (Continuity , Real and
    Provisional). Their so-called Republicanism is really another
    rendition of violent nationalism which our Government (in its
    wisdom) is about to copperfasten as the defining ethos of our
    Irish heritage by making Easter Sunday a nationalist holiday, in
    tribute to the insurgents of 1916. Talk about subverting the
    Good News of the Resurrection!

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    WIth all this parade talk…who has the right and who doesn’t…made me think….maybe unionist shouldn’t be allowed to march because:

    A Unionist is one who wants to keep the north of Ireland part of queen elizabeth’s realm….and it is the law of the land in the north of Ireland that makes it illegal for the queen or her family to marry a Catholic….
    For a unionist to march anywhere ….is for the unionist to be promoting inequality of religions…..
    In the republic of Ireland…it isn’t illegal to marry any one due to their religion…but in the north of Ireland…it is….and the Unionist want to keep those laws….Doesn’t the EU have laws stating you can’t discriminate anyone due to their relgiion…but the unionist do all the time…so does queen elizabeth’s gov’t. Catholics are good enough to pay taxes…but not good enough to be king or queen…but the law allows a Muslim…a Buddist…even a Satanist…but not a Catholic….interesting.

  • Mickhall

    And please lose the historical stuff – every international border was established by conflict. But the world as a whole has moved on to an enlightened age where we determine such things by dialogue. Or at least most of it has…

    Posted by IJP

    I am shocked by this part of your post as I always regarded you as a sensible and fair minded man, yet by this statement you seem to have little real idea of the type of world you live in. Every occupier in history as always demanded of those they have wronged, “forget the historical stuff. It was our forefathers who did the dirty deed, we being civilized men who live in an enlighten age will solve this issue by dialog.” Whilst they held a mailed fist behind their backs.

    The Romans did it to the Jews, along with countless other nations, today the Israeli State does it to the Palestinians. The British and Ottoman Empires did it to just about every nation they conquered and in between a host of tin despots copied their wicked endeavors.

    Indeed to talk of an enlightened age when the Iraqi state is about to be torn asunder due to the criminals invasion of the war criminal President Bush and his poodle PM Blair makes your statement all the more shocking.

    It also tells me you have little real understanding of how the minority community in the north feel. Republicans will never consider those who occupied Ireland civilized men nor would we use that word to describe those who continue to enforce partition. However we understand due to ‘HISTORICAL reasons the situation is complex and enough blood has been shed by all sides. Thus for the good of all we are prepared to look for a peaceful solution to this conflict. But do not think for one minute by doing so we accept the British State had the right to partition this small island by force of arms nor that maintaining that partition had anything what ever to do with civilization. It was a foolish and barbaric act, full stop! The consequences of which have been written in misery and blood over the past 78 years.

    I wish you well.

    MH

  • eyesopen

    “Do you uphold and defend the right of unionists (including members of the loyal orders) to peacefully parade in Dublin?”

    Its a bit like allowing the bnp to march through Toxteth or Brixton.

    The love ulster campaign was launched with the help of uda godfather, Jackie McDonald, it’s leader Willie Frazer was refused a personal issue weapon because the btitish security forces belive he has connections to people within loyalist paramilitarism, f.a.i.r call the UDR/UVF members of the Gleanne Gang,who killed dozens of people on the streets of Dublin, victims.Loyalist paramilitary bands were part of the shankill road love ulster parade and on saturday, the bands played sectarian tunes before getting back on their buses.

    The orange order are quite happy to have loyalist paramilitaries as members, shankill butcher eddie McIlwaine to name but one. The Shankill Road Protestant Boys band and The Shankill Star flute band are regulars at orange parades, they carry banners glorifying uvf terrorists like sectarian killer, Brian Robinson.

    The old boyne island defenders orange lodge in Belfast commemorate uvf killers every july,including mass murderer, Bobby ‘basher’ Bates.

    Dawson Baillie, when questioned about orangemen(in full regalia) taking part in a uvf memorial on the Shankill Road said

    “The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,”

    Deputy Grand Master of Belfast, McMordie said in july last year

    “They are on our side(uvf/uda) and continue to defend the orange order”

    Senior Belfast orangeman Billy Mawhinney said last summer that the uvf & uda were an integral part of the unionist commuinity and are the protectors of the protestant people

    Do these people have the right to march through Dublin ?

    Should the uvf or uda be allowed to march through Dublin ?

    I don’t think so.

  • pete

    Mickhall,
    I have to agree with what IJP has said about bringing ancient history into the matter – every discussion on NI politics seems to deteriorate into “yeah, but yous done this on us in 1976” and “well what yous done in 1920 was worse” etc etc. People are still yapping about what happened 800 years ago for christs sake. It may or may not be true that the way the border was established was wrong, but more importantly its irrelevant. The important thing is where we move on from here, not what happened before you or I was alive.

    I think it is highly hypocritical to criticise the alliance party and its views simply because they do not tally with your own. I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simmply what is best for the province as a whole rather than picking one side of the fence and twisting everything, historical and current, to back up the viewpoint that you have chosen.
    pete

  • Biffo

    Pete

    “I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simmply what is best for the province..”

    What’s best for the province would probably be – a united ireland.

    There is less rioting and sectarian violence than there is here in the UK.

    The crime rate is lower.

    The republic doesn’t have the shameful colonial history that the UK does

    We’d be materially better off.

    We’d be 10 times more influential in a country of 6 million rather than one of 60 million.

    Also, any Irish person can become head of state – you don’t have to be a protestant, like in the UK.

    We’d be mugs not to join up.

  • Mickhall

    I think it is highly hypocritical to criticize the alliance party and its views simply because they do not tally with your own. I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simply what is best for the province as a whole rather than picking one side of the fence and twisting everything, historical and current, to back up the viewpoint that you have chosen.
    pete

    Posted by pete

    Pete,

    I feel you are a bit arse about face in your criticism, I would be hypocritical if I did not challenge IJP when I believe he is mistaken. You may feel I have twisted everything in my argument and that is your right, but I feel your wrong.

    In life one can rarely solve a problem by starting from where we find ourselves, one must first look back and find out how one got into the pickle in the first place. Those who say, “hey you cannot do that, there is no need”, often do so because they are not dissatisfied with where they find themselves, I fear IJPs party is a bit like that, although these days I have gradually come to have a fair amount of personal respect for many Liberals and in the main I wish them well.

    For better or worse the fact is almost 50 percent of the population in the north don’t like where they find themselves, or rather the State they find themselves part of, so whether you or anyone else dislikes it, that fact has to be debated.

    Unless you would prefer we all went back into our bunkers, guns at the ready. No of course you do not want that and nor I. Far from being hypocritical I’m being open and honest with JIP, I’m saying this is what I believe and this is what I dislike about what you believe and this is why I think your mistaken in your beliefs.

    I’m doing this not in an aggressive or dictatorial manner, nor demanding he reject his beliefs, but I hope in a civilized way as one man to another. It is only by accepting both Loyalists and Republicans/Nationalists have a perfectly viable argument and place within the island of Ireland can the process move forward; and as far as I’m aware the only way this can come about is by talking to each other. mutual Respect is the first step to movement and eventual agreement.

    All the best

    Mick

  • ben

    If Jeffrey Donaldson and Willie Frazier are claiming a right to march in Dublin based on their Irish citizenship, they’re welcome to renounce the Queen and swear allegiance to the Republic.

    Otherwise, the Irish government should have apprehended all of these DUP terror-sympathisers as soon as they crossed the border and detained them as long as the law allows before deporting those who they didn’t charge to London.

    We do not owe an N.I. mob of criminal-lovers and bigots anything. They have a history of subverting and attacking Ireland and Irish institutions and each one of them should be treated as a hostile persona non grata and barred from entering the country, permanently.

  • Realist

    “We do not owe an N.I. mob of criminal-lovers and ###### anything. They have a history of subverting and attacking Ireland and Irish institutions and each one of them should be treated as a hostile persona non grata and barred from entering the country, permanently”

    The author of this speaks of the largest political party in Northern Ireland in language akin to a Nazi.

    They are not for “Building An Ireland Of Equals”.

    Posted by Realist.

  • It is good to see unreconstructed republicans on the same blog as unionists. The more of this that happens the better in my opinion.
    Interesting too to see how wide is the gulf between those who critisise Birtie for allowing the Love Ulster people to come to Dublin and Irish unionist who want to continue the union with Britain.
    I was brought up on a diet of “United Ireland” in Limerick in the 1950s and 60s. Everyone around me believed in “United Ireland”. Some were in favour of getting there by force, others by some other means. Noone questioned the value of believing in it.
    Gradually I realised there was another Irish point of view. The unionist tradition is the other nationalist tradition. I see that now.
    Argueing for a “United Ireland” is counter-productive: it prevents the construction of respect for all the people of Ireland. It is partisan and pointless. It is doomed to failure.
    That’s the view I formed in dublin in the early 1970s. For that reason I chained myself, with others, inside the department of external affairs protesting in favour of the deletion of articles 2&3 of the 1937 Constitution.

    I went to London and lived in UK for 30 years until this November. I lost touch with Irish politics. I didn’t even know there were people from the North coming to walk the streets of dublin on Saturday.
    But I sure as hell noticed what happened. And it struck me that those who prevented that march are about as popular as those who “rose” in 1916. Pearce et al were vilified by the people of Dublin. After all, people were killed in 1916 and a lot of the city was damaged. I know it was another era but 1916 became popular thanks to the executions, the catholic church and Sinn Fein’s victory in 1918. Is there any way the fighters of last Saturday could become the heros of the future? I think it is unlikely but not impossible.
    If Irish unionists are overwhelmed and made to live in a “united ireland”, history will be re-written and the “thugs” of Saturday will be the freedom fighters of a Green republic.
    Would you want to live in a society where the views and values of such a huge section of the population were disrespected?

  • George

    Omaniblog,
    last Saturday’s thugs won’t be the heroes of the future because they were out fighting over Ireland’s past.

    The men of 1916, whatever anyone thinks of them, were fighting for Ireland’s future.

    “We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible…

    The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

    That was quite revolutionary in 1916.

    Anybody say anything of that calibre last week?

  • George

    and women of course….

  • Omaniblog,

    Stick to British politics, by your own admission you are way out of touch with Irish politics.

    “If Irish unionists are overwhelmed and made to live in a “united ireland””

    Ever hear of the Good Friday Agreement?

    The way you go on you’d swear there wasn’t a person in the north-eastern counties of Ireland that was a nationalist. The British government recognises reunification as a valid aspiration and yet you don’t?

    Comparing the thugs looting shoe shops and burning out cars on Saturday with a uniformed army, attempting to set up a Government and State is rediculous.

    “I know it was another era but 1916 became popular thanks to the executions, the catholic church and Sinn Fein’s victory in 1918”

    Thanks to Sinn Feins victory in 1918?? This statement alone serves to illustrate your distinct lack of understanding of the goings on in that era. I suggest that the rest of your post can be taken with a large grain of salt as you obviously haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

  • PopeBuckfastXV1:
    Thanks very much. You are right: I am out of touch with irish politics. I wonder if I want to get in touch? Imagine if someone said the same sort of thing to you… would you feel like trying to understand their world?

    I’ve heard of the Good Friday Agreement: it seems to me that a lot of good has come from it. However, there is so far to go that, at times, it seems to me that only the surface has been scraped.

    There are plenty of people in the North, and the South, who are catholic nationalists: they hope for a “united ireland”. I don’t expect them to stop holding their views: I once subscribed to their point of view.

    The British government does indeed recognise the aspiration for a “united ireland” as “valid”. Wouldn’t they be mad not to? I recognise it as “valid” too. But I consider it counter-productive and unwise. It is a product of one nationalist tradition and it is a thoroughly Green aspiration. I am convinced it is doomed to frustration.

    I’d go so far as to say that the only way there will ever be a united ireland is after the “united ireland” aspiration has been exposed as a blind alley. It needs to be completely given up before there will ever be a chance of an ireland united.

    I am out of touch with the day to day events of irish politics, except since November 2005. When I read some of the posts, I don’t feel I have missed much during the last 30 years.

    The uniformed army of 1916, which was more an army-in-waiting than a proper army, was seen by the people of Dublin as completely misguided. You may have no sympathy for the stone throwers of Saturday. I deplore what they did. I deplore the damage they did to the reputation of Dublin and the fear they inspired. But among them were some who were intent on preventing “our” streets from being sullied by the shoes of “Loyalists”: they were every bit as principled as the rebels of 1916. Among them were angry poor economically deprived people who don’t see themselves as victors in the Celtic Tiger economy: they took the opportunity to get try to even things up a bit. Among them were people who were turned on by the prospect of a bit of ultraviolence: whenever there is tension in the air, they will be round the corner and it didn’t take much to coax them out of the pub.

    A noble motivation is admirable. But the result of following a noble cause has often been disastrous. (Look at the noble motivations behind World War One…)

    In the background lay an incompetent government leading a police force that was unable to keep the streets safe. The state failed in its most basic duty to its citizens. I wish the Minister could simply admit that and promise to do better next time.

    Did I get the Irish 1918 election wrong? I thought that was when the new generation of catholic nationists took over from Redmond. But there is probably so little of the story which we call Irish history that you and I would agree on.

    I’m not surprised that you think I haven’t a clue. We don’t share one view of what’s been going on. It’s your manners that surprise me: why did you bother to criticise my views?

    Realist2:
    you are right, I think: noone said anything so fine on Saturday as that proclamation. But I think Gerry Adams et al did a noble thing by urging people to let the Love Ulster march alone. That took some thinking through. As you know I don’t share your, or Gerry Adam’s, love for the ideal of a “united ireland”, but I admire the political intelligence behind Sinn Fein’s tactic.

    Just because those 1916 words are impressive it doesn’t follow that the deed of 1916 had a good result. When you put the 1937 constitution alongside the 1916 words, you can see how out of touch those who wrote the proclamation were with the real forces within their community. De Velara made it happen. Look what he made happen.
    Thanks for your challenge.

  • Omaniblog…

    on the 1918 election you state it was a cause of the people coming to accept and admire the events of 1916, I say you have a lack of understanding because you’ve obviously missed the fact that the success of Sinn Féin in the 1918 election was becuase of the already popular 1916 rising incorrectly termed “The Sinn Féin Rebellion” by the media of the time.

    You say we should forget about a United Ireland, and you reckon this is the best way to achieve it. Perhaps you think we can be sneaky and fool the Unionists into thinking that we don’t want a United Ireland and then pounce when they are off guard? I’d rather be open and honest about my aspirations. Forget about a United Ireland indeed! Maybe the Unionists should forget about the Union, or does that sound equally simplistic?

    I’ve no time for Southern partitionists, especially ones who over simplify the situation, perhaps you’ll reccommend that that all the catholics should move to Donegal next..

  • Mickhall

    omaniblog,

    By the way, I enjoyed your blog, especialy your piece about professionals.

    Mick Hall

  • Mickhall,

    I got tired of spending so much time reading about 1916 and writing about Irish history. So I put all that debate aside. Only now have I gone back to see if there were any new comments. I’d like to thank you for your kind remark. I don’t understand it because I forget what I wrote about professionals. What were you referring to?

    I tried to find your blog or website but couldn’t.