Will the Welsh show respect – and will we..?

OVER at Our Wee Country, thoughts are turning to the national anthems that will be played tomorrow at Windsor Park. Could the Welsh booing of ‘God Save the Queen’ when NI played them in Cardiff lead to an especially loud ‘No Surrender’ from fans? Or will anyone take up this NI fan’s suggestion that the unofficial addendum to ‘the Queen’ be replaced simply with ‘Northern Ireland’? One Welsh fan on the board suggested the booing at the Millennium stadium was motivated by anti-English sentiment, but will our fans see it that way? All these and other questions to be answered later…

  • Realist

    Insider,

    You can take it as read that Jim Boyce’s favourite other international team is the Republic of Ireland.

  • Baluba

    ‘Hartson is a violent thug, masquerading as a professional football player’

    Jaysus, only in soccer could you possibly call Hartson a thug. Good one that. Made me laugh out loud.

    Soccer is shite.

    Really. I mean it.

    It’s just shite.

  • Realist

    Gwen,

    “one of the commentators stated that he had never heard such disrespect given to a national anthem in all his years of commentating, he did mention that a section of the crowd had booed god save the queen at the Millenium stadium during the first game, but had never known, basically, a full stadium shout and boo during the playing of any anthem. He also mentioned that the crowd then started singing to drown out the remainder of the anthem.”

    The “commentator” has got his facts sadly wrong.

    Avail yourself of a recording of the match in Cardiff last year, and of the Wales v England game in Cardiff three weeks ago.

    Then come back and we can talk about “who booed the loudest”.

    Whilst it was a sizeable minority who booed LOMF yesterday, it most definately was not “basically, a full stadium”.

    Booing of anthems is disrespectful, whether it’s Welsh, Scottish or ROI fans booing GSTQ (all of which seem to have been forgotten in the detractor fest), or NI fans booing LOMF.

    Carlos,

    “GSTQ shouldn’t be played in NI matches. I find it offennsive”

    Are you a Northern Ireland supporter? Do you go to their matches?

  • Realist

    Some things you should know, if you are a “wannabe” Northern Ireland fan.

    1. Like every other team, we have some supporters who have the potential to misbehave.

    2. Like some other teams (eg, Rangers, Celtic & the ROI), we have some supporters who are a bit “political”.

    3. Our flag is the flag of Northern Ireland. (until further notice)

    4. Our anthem is God Save The Queen (until further notice)

    5. Many of our fans are not exactly the best of buddies with Irish Republicans. Irish Republicans want to see the destruction of Northern Ireland, including it’s football team.

    Irish Republicans twice targeted Northern Ireland fans leaving Windsor Park in the 1980’s, potentially murdering hundreds of innocent supporters.

    Northern Ireland supporters have a right to come to games and not witness religious bigotry etc…the IFA and fans are constantly working hard to try and deal with this issue, as best they possibly can. As a Northern Ireland supporter, you could help in this cause.

    If all of the above are OK with you, great.

    If not, go and support somebody else.

  • yerman

    Had an interesting conversation about this in the pub after actually going to the game.

    The booing of the Welsh Anthem and of Hartson may well be wrong – but the motivation for much of it was as a result of the match in Wales. Its intersting that our nationalist friends on this site now have so little opportunity to criticise NI football matches that they have to take offence on behalf of Welsh people!

    Hartson deserved to get booed because of his style of play – its just a shame that at a Northern Ireland match these days you have to sit down and work out the extensive political ramafications that having a go at an agressive player can have.

    Is shouting “who are ya?” repeatedly at Giggs also a symptom of the rampant bigotry which some people want to see around every corner? Someone has already mentioned the repeated incidents of Rangers players being booed at RoI mathes – 2 wrongs dont make a right but they’re all big boys and I’m sure Hartson isnt crying into his cornflakes this morning over those nasty people in Windsor Park.

    As was mentioned, there was absolutely no sectarian chanting or singing of any kind. Some people just oppose the very existance of Northern Ireland and will therefore find fault with the most minor of things.

    But… as the banner on the South Stand said…

    WE EXIST!!!!!

  • Carlos

    Maybe I would go to Northern Ireland matches if they didn’t play GSTQ realist until then it doesn’t represent me.
    How can you argue the case for having a regional football team if you are against regional identity (By playing GSTQ)

  • yerman

    Carlos,
    Unfortunately for you GSTQ is here to stay…..

    Also, why is it that I get the feeling that if the anthem was changed then you would find some other convenient excuse?

  • Fobo

    “This flag of Ulster cannot be seperated from paramilitary terror orgainzations at this point. It is akin to the confederate flag in the US, the old rising sun flag of imperial Japan and the nazi flag of Germany.”

    Yes as I’m sure there are half starved slaves constructing gas chambers as the flag of NI flutters over their heads. Or perhaps it is totally ridiculous to compare the Northern Ireland’s flag to Nazi Germany’s.

    The scum of the BNP are fond of the Union Jack, should they be allowed to claim ownership of it from the people of the UK? Republican terrorsts have a fetish for the tricolour, should the citizens of the RoI abandon their flag? If not then why should people in NI abandon their flag?

  • beano

    Rupert, it was sung once during the match. I’m reminded of a rottweiler who won’t let go of a bone…

  • beano

    “Maybe I would go to Northern Ireland matches if they didn’t play GSTQ realist until then it doesn’t represent me. “
    Carlos: can you suggest a suitable alternative? (forget Danny Boy)

  • Realist

    Carlos,

    “Maybe I would go to Northern Ireland matches if they didn’t play GSTQ realist until then it doesn’t represent me.”

    Is that the anthem or the team doesn’t represent you?

    “Its intersting that our nationalist friends on this site now have so little opportunity to criticise NI football matches that they have to take offence on behalf of Welsh people!”

    Good point yerman…also interesting that Welsh fans on various fans websites aren’t taking much offence. They perhaps understand that if you dish it out, as they did in Cardiff, you have to be prepared to take some back in return.

    Here, before I go to Austria, I was wondering….are Glasgow Celtic players a protected species, that everybody must like? lol

  • Fan for Change

    Realist…were you addressing your “wanabe” comments to me? I hope not. I have been a NI fan since you were in nappies or before. I have been attending matches at Windsor since 1978 and have probably seen more matches at the park than the vast majority of posters here.
    How is it that the Welsh can take pride in an anthem they can call their own…doesn’t make them any less British.
    You cannot deny that the Ulster flag is the logo of terror groups. I am simply stating facts.
    What does not being “the best of buddies with Irish Republicans” have anything to do with this conversation? As pointed out many times on this site, there are no plans for a merger and no one is going to take away the NI team. What does the fact that the provos targeted supporters in the 1980s have to to with this conversation? They are a terror group willing to kill innocents, we know that. Thats why I loath them as much as you do. However, they are no different than those that use the Ulster flag in their willingness to kill innocents.
    You said “IFA and fans are constantly working hard to try and deal with this issue, as best they possibly can. As a Northern Ireland supporter, you could help in this cause”…I am helping in the cause by pointing out that the flag is one associated with terror groups so lets change it. I also help in this cause by bringing catholic workmates to games, and have done so for years. They should be made to feel very comfortable in their seats just as you are. Lets not confuse the provos with catholics who just want to see a (hopefully) decent football match free of bigotry and hate. It make come as a shock to you, but some of NIs best players over the years have been catholic. Do they not deserve to have their families and friends show up to games at Windsor to enjoy a sporting event?

  • red kangaroo

    “Carlos,
    Unfortunately for you GSTQ is here to stay…..”

    Does that mean that a British citizen of NI who supports a British republic with NI as a part is not welcome as a fan?

  • Fan for Change

    Realist

    In all seriousness, enjoy yourself in Austria 🙂 Hope you support the team to victory.

  • Realist

    Fan For Change,

    My comments were not addressed to you…they were addressed to any “wannabe Northern Ireland fan”.

    Regarding the flag, I’m not for change.

    Regarding the anthem, I am for change.

    “It make come as a shock to you, but some of NIs best players over the years have been catholic.”

    It may come as a shock to you, but I have been watching Northern Ireland since long before 1978.

    I am not one bit interested what religion, if any, a player is.

    I am not one bit interested what religion, if any, a fan is.

    I travel around the world supporting Northern Ireland with some fellas who say they are Protestant, some fellas who say they are Catholic, and some who say they couldn’t give a fcuk about religion.

    “Do they not deserve to have their families and friends show up to games at Windsor to enjoy a sporting event?”

    Of course they do…what a silly comment.

    “Lets not confuse the provos with catholics who just want to see a (hopefully) decent football match free of bigotry and hate.”

    Who is confusing the two?

  • Paul

    “Celtic/Ireland connection does not have to be explained,as Celtic is a club steeped in irishness, located in Scotland, that is the reason so many Celtic shirts are worn at ROI games”

    Cavanman

    ““Oh, and the Celtic/Green, Ireland/Green thing doesn’t wash.”
    LOL. It washes quite well. Tell us then why some ROI fans wear Celtic jerseys to Ireland matches?””

    UI

    Sorry for the late comeback on this one guys. Why do Republic fans prefer to wear Celtic shirts rather than that of the team they’re actually watching?

    My guess is that Cavanman is closer to the real reason here. Yes, Celtic are a club “steeped in irishness” but it’s a very exclusive type of Irishness, nationalist and let’s be honest about this, Catholic. I can’t speak for the position in the Republic, but in Northern Ireland a Celtic or Rangers shirt is very much a visible badge of identity, a kind of two fingers, “in yer face” gesture to those of a different political or religious persuasion.

    For me the Republic’s team are an irrelevance, but I’m sure there are others of a non-nationalist viewpoint who might consider adopting the Republic as their second team if this kind of thing( along with the divisive anthem and flag ;)) was addressed by the fanbase and supporters club themselves.

    You’re watching your country, why not wear its shirt with pride not that of some third rate Scottish team?

    PS UI, I’ve sorted out the postcard problem, I’ll address it to Dublin, British Isles, OK? 🙂

  • beano

    Manny that’s disgusting, I hope the police escorted them to the nearest vacant cell.

  • red kangaroo

    If the people of NI (from both sides) can’t even support sports teams with out the whole thing turning into a sectarian hate fest how can you expect any better from your politicians.

  • Fan for Change

    Realist – I respect your response and your position on the items on our agenda (lol) … like anyone with pull is listening.

    In any case, what I most appreciate is your personal attitude towards support of NI. I think we share quite a bit of common ground.

  • United Irelander

    Paul

    “My guess is that Cavanman is closer to the real reason here. Yes, Celtic are a club “steeped in irishness” but it’s a very exclusive type of Irishness, nationalist and let’s be honest about this, Catholic. I can’t speak for the position in the Republic, but in Northern Ireland a Celtic or Rangers shirt is very much a visible badge of identity, a kind of two fingers, “in yer face” gesture to those of a different political or religious persuasion.”

    Paul, I think I can speak for the Republic and here, as recent polls have indicated, Irish people are frequently looking on the old issues of the past as an irrelevance. I might not like that but it’s a reality. If you seriously think that the Irish people who wear Celtic jerseys to Ireland matches are doing so purely to annoy unionists like yourself, then I suggest you work on the paranoia. As you yourself acknowledged, Celtic and Irishness are synonymous with each other. I presume someone people with Celtic jerseys don’t feel the need to splash out cash on an Ireland jersey when they feel they can simply wear their Celtic jersey.

    “You’re watching your country, why not wear its shirt with pride not that of some third rate Scottish team?”

    As I said, some Irish fans who own Celtic jerseys more than likely don’t see the need in paying for an Ireland one as well.

    What about Irish fans who wear their county colours to matches? As I’ve said, I’ve seen people in Mayo jerseys and other county colours. Is that a form of disrespect as well? I wouldn’t say so.

    “PS UI, I’ve sorted out the postcard problem, I’ll address it to Dublin, British Isles, OK? :)”

    Careful Paul. ‘Dublin’ and ‘British’ haven’t appeared together in a long time. Those handling the post might think you’re an American with a poor knowledge of geography and simply throw it out. How about – Baile Átha Cliath, an Phoblacht na hÉireann? 😉

  • Weapons of Crass Instruction

    While my support at international level admittedly lies closer to Lansdowne Rd I do however like to see the wee six doing the business whenever they can so it was an unfortunate result for the lads in Windsor.

    However, to be realistic, it would seem pie in the sky football to expect things to be turned around overnight after a drought of competitive wins in four years followed by a victory of the mighty giants of international soccer, Azerbaijan, and then the spectacular giant-killing of England.

    The behaviour of [sections?] of the fans was an altogether completely different affair. I was relegated, [no pun intended], to listening to the match on Radio Ulster and ‘Rule Britannia’ was clearly audible over the airwaves, it’s hardly a welcome sign to encourage support from Belfastonians such as myself and others from a nationalist persuasion is it?.

    Some of the comments regarding the booing of John Hartson seem almost to excuse the fact, which everyone knows, Hartson got stick simply because of which Scottish team he plays for.

    f_d –

    “You cheer your own team and you jeer your opponents”

    JEB –

    “It is the job of the fans to offset and piss off the star players on the opposing team.”

    I wonder would Neil Lennon agree with these opinions?.

  • beano

    I wonder would Neil Lennon agree with these opinions?.

    What was I saying about that Rottweiler with his bone?

  • Paul

    “If you seriously think that the Irish people who wear Celtic jerseys to Ireland matches are doing so purely to annoy unionists like yourself, then I suggest you work on the paranoia”

    UI,

    My original post was about the situation in NI. Look the next time there is a sectarian riot being broadcast on TV, Celtic (and Rangers on the other side) shirts will be worn by a fair proportion of the thugs. In N.Ireland they ARE a badge of religious and political identity.

    I’ll take your word for it that the population in the Republic have grown out of this kind of nonsense. I’m not that annoyed or paranoid about it, this intertwining of sport and politics is just another sad fact about life in NI. I just have to accept it.

  • Paul

    UI,
    with regards the postcard, you don’t seriously expect me to remember “Baile Átha Cliath, an Phoblacht na hÉireann?”. On the other hand, I also don’t want to be confused with an American with a shaky grasp of geography.

    So how about
    Dublin,
    Region 36(Western),
    European Union

    As a loyal and devoted subject of Brussels, I know you’ll have no problem with that 😉

  • Weapons of Crass Instruction

    I’m sorry if I seem to be harping on about some previously unsavoury moments re the Windsor supporters and their treatment of Neil Lennon Beano but I believe it’s a valid point in light of f_d & JCB’s remarks. I.e. isn’t it likely that some of the people involved in the abuse of Lennon still inhabit Windsor and isn’t it reasonable that they were also involved in the behaviour directed towards Hartson?.

    If this premise is accepted then, going by past performances, surely the treatment Hartson was subjected to cannot be dismissed simply as some kind of psychological upsetting tactic used solely for the purposes of winning the match?.

  • United Irelander

    Paul,

    I accept that in the north, wearing the Celtic jersey may adopt a different meaning. I really don’t think the same is true for Irish football fnas here in the south. I know Celtic fans who wear their Ireland jerseys to Celtic matches. The two jerseys are regarded as practically one and the same. I don’t think there’s anything malciious in that though.

    On the postcard, just simply write:

    To the greatest city on earth…”

    Don’t worry. It will end up in Dublin. 😉

  • Realist

    “Realist – I respect your response and your position on the items on our agenda (lol) … like anyone with pull is listening.

    In any case, what I most appreciate is your personal attitude towards support of NI. I think we share quite a bit of common ground.”

    Fan For Change,

    The IFA do listen. Northern Ireland fans who were disgusted by some of the antics yesterday will be making them listen.

    The words of NI legend, Pat Jennings, today.

    “I have to say that once again our fans were unbelievable, singing all the way through even when we were two goals down.

    They are amazing, but I thought those that booed and whilstled the Welsh anthem let themselves down, even if it was a reaction to a similar response from the Welsh fans in Cardiff. It was sad to hear.”

    UI,

    Interesting that on your own blog today you claim that Glasgow Celtic are “a club synonymous with Irishness/Catholicism”.

    The irony of that, I trust is not lost on you.

    Looking back at some of your comments on this thread about ROI supporters wearing Celtic shirts, you are saying that that is “synonomous with Catholicism”.

    Recently on your blog, you denied that the booing of Rangers players at ROI matches was sectarian, claiming that it was because “most Irish fans are also Celtic fans” in defence.

    Does it get more sectarian than that friend?

    By the way, John Hartson is a Protestant…he was to sign for Glasgow Rangers, but unfortunately failed a medical examination.

    manny,

    Disgusting behaviour. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh fans enjoyed their trip to Belfast, and received excellent hospitality from local fans.

    The same was the case for us in Cardiff last year, but unfortunately some members of the infamous Cardiff City “Soul Crew” took it upon themselves to attack Northern Ireland fans in the “Prince of Wales” pub, with several NI fans sustaining injuries.

    Welsh fans also rioted during their visit to Manchester last year to play England.

    Their supporters will tell you that there is regular trouble on their “away” trips amongst their own support…Cardiff Soul Crew and the fans of Swansea City fight the bit out.

    They too have a scum element in their support…the vast majority of their fans are magnificant.

  • Realist

    Hovis,

    How many people were involved in that disgusting behaviour?

    Did you get their seat numbers to report them to the stewards and the IFA?

    I heard Earnshaw being booed because of his time wasting and playacting antics (I booed him myself), but certainly did not hear any “monkey taunts”.

    Let us know what the IFA reply to your complaint.

  • Realist

    Hovis,

    How many people were involved in that disgusting behaviour?

    Did you get their seat numbers to report them to the stewards and the IFA?

    I heard Earnshaw being booed because of his time wasting and playacting antics (I booed him myself), but certainly did not hear any “monkey taunts”.

    Let us know what the IFA reply to your complaint.

  • United Irelander

    ‘Realist’

    “Looking back at some of your comments on this thread about ROI supporters wearing Celtic shirts, you are saying that that is “synonomous with Catholicism”.”

    Correct.

    “Recently on your blog, you denied that the booing of Rangers players at ROI matches was sectarian, claiming that it was because “most Irish fans are also Celtic fans” in defence.”

    Also correct.

    “Does it get more sectarian than that friend?”

    If you’re talking about Windsor park, then no it doesn’t. You see the North’s team and the Republic’s team are quite different. In the North, if you play for a certain club or are of a certain religious persuasion, you can be given a torrid time by fans. With the ROI team, people of all religions, and let’s face it nationalities, for example Tony Cascarino, have played for the ROI team without any hassle from fans.

    It’s called tolerance friend.;)

  • John East Belfast

    The latest downright lie about Monkey taunts is really scraping the bottom of the barrel in the “lets taint NI Supporters at all costs” campaign being orchestrated by a few biggoted pricks on this thread.

    He was booed and cxalled cheat for constantly falling over and getting awarded free kicks. Not once did race or Monkey chants come into it – it is total bull shit

    The revealing comments by Realist about United Ireland’s defence of booing Rangers fans and his statement that Celtic and Catholic are synonomous reveals just how far his head is up his own arse when it comes to making coherent comments about NI.

    I admire your spirited defence Realist but I think with these people you are talking to a brick wall – but its worth highlighting both their lies and stupidity I suppose

  • Realist

    “There was an incident yesterday when northern ireland fans who were travelling on an open top bus to the game, attacked 2 young lads with bottles and other missiles because they were wearing republic of ireland tops.

    Utterly sectarian behaviour”

    Absolutely Joe…utterly dispicable. I believe the culprits will be identified and appropriate action taken.

    By the way, if I were you I would report this incident to the news…UI informs me that if such incidents are not reported in a reputable news source, they didn’t happen.

    You will no doubt be aware that buses containing Northern Ireland supporters were attacked by a gang of masked republican youths (which appears may have been a premeditated sectarian attack) en route to the game.

  • Realist

    “In the North, if you play for a certain club or are of a certain religious persuasion, you can be given a torrid time by fans.”

    And similarly in the Republic.

    “With the ROI team, people of all religions, and let’s face it nationalities, for example Tony Cascarino, have played for the ROI team without any hassle from fans.”

    Except if you happen to be a Rangers player.

    With all Northern Ireland teams, players from the Catholic and Protestant traditions play, players of other nationalities play (Maik Taylor) with the full support of the fans.

    Your lack of knowledge on these matters is quite embarrassing.

  • United Irelander

    John East Belfast

    “The revealing comments by Realist about United Ireland’s defence of booing Rangers fans and his statement that Celtic and Catholic are synonomous reveals just how far his head is up his own arse when it comes to making coherent comments about NI.”

    More ad hominem attacks from John. Maybe one day he’ll actually play the ball and not the man. One can hope.

    John, perhaps your debating style would be suited elsewhere. Like, oh I don’t know, UTV’s site or perhaps the Love Ulster site?

    Regards.

  • United Irelander

    ‘Realist’

    “And similarly in the Republic.”

    Wrong.

    “Except if you happen to be a Rangers player.”

    I believe it was Ireland’s Alan Maybury who went on record to declare that he wanted to play for Rangers. Don’t recall him getting booed at all….

    “With all Northern Ireland teams, players from the Catholic and Protestant traditions play, players of other nationalities play (Maik Taylor) with the full support of the fans”

    They play but they run the risk of suffering abuse. Hardly surprising when Windsor Park is a cold house for those of the green tradition. ‘Rule Britannia’ isn’t exactly inclusive is it?

    “Your lack of knowledge on these matters is quite embarrassing.”

    It’s embarrassing for NI fans and the IFA, yes. I’m sorry I have to embarrass you by highlighting the disgusting bigotry at Windsor park but it’s the only way you’ll learn. 🙂

  • yerman

    “Does that (GSTQ being here to stay) mean that a British citizen of NI who supports a British republic with NI as a part is not welcome as a fan?”

    Absolutely not. Anyone who is from NI (or further afield) and wants to come and support NI is entirely welcome. However, for those who are violently opposed to the very existance of Northern Ireland then I neither see them wanting to come and support NI or actually doing so.

    Am I welcome at Lansdown Road to a rugby match where the Soldiers Song is played? Yes. There are many people from NI who dont particularly like that happening at rugby matches, but they get on with it and support the team – not continually whinge about how oppressed we are by the jackboot of the IRFU.

    As for the attack on the Lisburn Rd – there were plenty of police around yesterday and I seen several of the landrovers with videocameras on top – no doubt the scum who perpetrated such an attack will be quickly identified (if they have not already been) and will face the full weight of justice. I hope though that the other 13,000 or so NI fans who were at the game wont be judged by the actions of 3 or 4 scumbags.

    “The most worrying part of the events of yesterday was the racist ‘monkey taunts’ directed at Robert Earnshaw.”

    There were absolutely NO racist or sectarian chants at the match yesterday, not even by a few isolated individuals. I actually was a little concerned that some muppets might try and start some chating when he was being booed for his timewasting antics. Thankfully there was no problem – apart from the scoreline.

  • Realist

    UI,

    Please.

    Are you seriously telling us that Rangers players playing against the ROI have not received a “torrid time” from ROI fans?

    “They play but they run the risk of suffering abuse.”

    They don’t.

    “It’s embarrassing for NI fans and the IFA, yes. I’m sorry I have to embarrass you by highlighting the disgusting bigotry at Windsor park but it’s the only way you’ll learn”

    As someone who hasn’t missed one Northern Ireland game at Windsor Park in over 10 years, and only a handful in the last 30 years, I don’t think I have much to learn from someone who couldn’t even find the place.

    As someone who is fully supportive of actions to eliminate “disgusting bigotry” at Windsor Park, and who spends a lot of my life highlighting it, denouncing it and trying to do something about it, I don’t think you can teach me anything about that either.

  • Realist

    “Most of them were happy to sing ‘rule britannia’ during the game (in an inclusive and non intimidating way, of course)”

    lawry,

    Let us assume that all of those in the West Stand (the only place were RB was sung from), and that it was full to capactity (4000 people).

    How does that constitute “most” of the 13,000 or so NI fans in attendance?

    PS: It wasn’t even “most” of the West Stand.

  • United Irelander

    ‘Realist’

    “Are you seriously telling us that Rangers players playing against the ROI have not received a “torrid time” from ROI fans?”

    A small section of the Lansdowne Road has been known to boo. Yesterday it seemed the overwhelming majority of those in the ground were booing Hartson. In fairness, I’ve always heard Goerge Hamilton condemn the minority who have engaged in it. I can’t remember Jackie Fullerton doing likewise yesterday.

    “They don’t.”

    Oh they do. Just ask Pat Jennings, Anton Rogan or Neil Lennon.

    “As someone who hasn’t missed one Northern Ireland game at Windsor Park in over 10 years, and only a handful in the last 30 years, I don’t think I have much to learn from someone who couldn’t even find the place.”

    But you turn a blind eye to the bigotry in the ground. And I can assure you I have no intention of finding such a sectarian stronghold like Windsor Park!

    “As someone who is fully supportive of actions to eliminate “disgusting bigotry” at Windsor Park, and who spends a lot of my life highlighting it, denouncing it and trying to do something about it, I don’t think you can teach me anything about that either”

    You can’t be taught to acknowledge and denounce the bigotry of NI fans if you turn a blind eye to it so you’re right in that sense.

    Nothing to say about the monkey chants against Robert Earnshaw which some people on this thread are reporting?

  • Realist

    “A small section of the Lansdowne Road has been known to boo.”

    A small section? And why do they boo?

    “Yesterday it seemed the overwhelming majority of those in the ground were booing Hartson”

    It was a vociferous minority.

    “I can’t remember Jackie Fullerton doing likewise yesterday”

    Jackie must be a bigot then.:)

    “Oh they do. Just ask Pat Jennings, Anton Rogan or Neil Lennon.”

    Did you read Pat’s comments about the fans yesterday…I posted them above?

    I believe that Anton & Neil played for Celtic?

    Any others you know who have been “abused”?

    “But you turn a blind eye to the bigotry in the ground.”

    I don’t…I comment on it all the time.

    “And I can assure you I have no intention of finding such a sectarian stronghold like Windsor Park!”

    Thank God for that! 🙂

    “Nothing to say about the monkey chants against Robert Earnshaw which some people on this thread are reporting?”

    I have commented…see an earlier post.

    I heard nothing of that nature yesterday.

    First highlighted by a NI fan on the OWC website….but, of course, Northern Ireland fans turn a blind eye to such incidents.

    The perpetrator(s) should be reported and banned from Windsor Park for life.

    I have asked Hovis if he got the seat numbers of those involved.

    “You can’t be taught to acknowledge and denounce the bigotry of NI fans if you turn a blind eye to it so you’re right in that sense.”

    I do acknowledge it and have repeatedly and consistently denounced it.

    You acknowledged that yourself on your blog…TODAY!

    You said you were crystal claer about my denounciation.

    Maybe you’re thinking about someone else?

  • John East Belfast

    United Irelander

    In terms of you I play the man not the ball because you are not playing with a ball.

    You are simply making hysterical and sweeping statements in an attempt to smear the entire NI fan base.

    To do that you are using historical and/or isolated and minority recent incidents to support your pre-determined position.
    One cannot argue with that other than to waste time highlighting what you are saying is not true or is not truly typical.

    Others have the patience to get into a Oh No it is Oh No it isn’t rant with you – I don’t. If you spoke to me in a bar the way you are posting here I would call you an irritating prick and tell you to go away. Therefore I am not saying anything here I wouldn’t say to your face.

    Also when you talk about attacking the man you have to realise the NI Fan base is not some mythical bunch of unseen spides – it includes me and my 15 year old son. You are attacking me, my family and friends – so don’t be surprised if I shovel some of your shit back at you.

    You have no notion whatsoever of the typical NI fan and I would be surprised if you ever had met one.

    The VAST AND OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF NI Fans are people like me and not what you are trying to portray.

    The problems of yesterday started in Cardiff when the Welsh fans disgracefully booed GSTQ. Are you telling me that if the Soldiers Song was booed in Cardiff somebody at Landsdowne Road would not have booed LOFM ? There is not a country in the world that would have reacted with the restraint the NI Fans did to LOMF.
    The entire North Stand Upper Tier was silent – I suspect the same with the Lower – SOME of the West Stand couldn’t help themselves.

    I have yet to hear Rule Britannia but as I totally missed it at the game it couldn’t have been that major a part of 95 mimutes of football.

    Anyone monkey chanting should have been ejected from the ground but once again I can only assume it was the person standing beside them that heard the handful doing it.

    The match was passionate – coming after a grudge match in Cardiff where Wales ended up with 10 on the pitch and NI with 9.

    The NI Fan base has come on leaps and bounds in recent years and I do take ill informed and prejudiced statements personnally.

  • Realist

    Is my 11 year old son a bigot too YI?

    Are all of my friends, both Catholic & Protestant, who travel around the world supporting NI also bigots?

    Are the vast majority of people (Catholics and Protestants) who go to Windsor Park to see Northern Ireland play bigots for entering into that “sectarian stronghold”?

    Do you know any of these bigots personally?

    Have you ever met a Northern Ireland fan?

    Were they a bigot?

    You need to be absolutely clear by what you mean with your broadbrush, wild allegations.

    I don’t take too kindly either to lectures from those who do not have the best interests of the Northern Ireland team and it’s fans at heart.

    Please be specific about your “NI bigots” allegations.

  • Mick Fealty

    UI, a bit courtesy please! Surely it’s possible to make your point without repeatedly resorting to the term bigot or bigotry? It’s both lazy, and decidedly uncivil.

  • Paul

    Neil

    Your spelling mistakes remind me of someone else who just really loves Northern Ireland.

    What were your seat numbers?

  • John East Belfast

    neil

    you “managed to get a couple of tickets for the Kop Stand” ?

    There is no Kop Stand ?

    What exactly did it say on your ticket /

    Who are the two main corporate sponsoor logos ?

    How does it describ the date ?

    08.10.05, 08.10.2005, 8th October 2005, 2005, 8th October – or some other ?

    If you are genuine you can come straight back with an answer

  • United Irelander

    ‘Realist’

    “A small section? And why do they boo?”

    Yes a small section. They booed because the players were Rangers players. You know that so why ask?

    “It was a vociferous minority.”

    I don’t think a minority can be that vociferous.

    “Jackie must be a bigot then.:)”

    Nah, just a bit ignorant. 😉

    “Did you read Pat’s comments about the fans yesterday…I posted them above?”

    No.

    “I believe that Anton & Neil played for Celtic?”

    I believe you’re right.

    “Thank God for that! :)”

    Indeed.:)

    “I heard nothing of that nature yesterday.”

    Do you think it’s untrue then?

    “First highlighted by a NI fan on the OWC website….but, of course, Northern Ireland fans turn a blind eye to such incidents.”

    Not all of them. Let’s not tar everyone with the same brush.:)

    “You said you were crystal claer about my denounciation.”

    So why change the goalposts (no pun intended)

    Mick Fealty

    “UI, a bit courtesy please! Surely it’s possible to make your point without repeatedly resorting to the term bigot or bigotry? It’s both lazy, and decidedly uncivil.”

    Uncivil? Me? I suggest you remove the blinkers and read what I’ve been putting up with from our friend John from East Belfast. In case you missed it, here it is:

    United Irelander

    When I try to put a face to the prick that makes the slap deserving posts that you do Barry McElduff springs to mind. Is it you ?”

    I bet at school you were a tell tale – hopping on one leg shouting teacher teacher those bad boys are annoying me.

    You really are a prick in the truest sense of that insult – do your friends ever tell you so.

    Stop being such a cry baby.

    In terms of you I play the man not the ball because you are not playing with a ball.

    Thse comments are deemed ‘civil’ and ‘playing the ball’ are they? Pathetic that you single me out.

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s a Yellow for you and JEB!

  • United Irelander

    Hold on. Yellow for me? I’ve had enough of this thread if I am to be blamed for simply calling a spade a spade.

    What a farcical turn of events when I am berated for calling people who boo an anthem ‘bigots’ and then to add insult to injury, I get accused of being ‘uncivil’ when I felt my response to John’s vulgar mouth was quite civil!

    Keep your yellow. On this matter, I’m giving you the red!

  • John East Belfast

    Neil

    Where are you ?

    Can you get your hands on those two “Kop tickets” again and answer my 9.17 please ?

    Mick

    I apologise if I have offended your site but I will have to take my punishment as I could not “hand on heart” withdraw any comment about Mr United Irelander.

    Regarding Neil can you please check his http address or something to verify that in your opinion his 8.58 was at least possible to be genuine ?

  • Mick Fealty

    John and UI, the problem is that when it gets personal it has a debilitating effect on the whole discussion. I’m not asking either of you to disown your words or strong feelings. Just to desist from further ad hominem attacks.

    UI, as someone pointed out recently I am not infallable! And you sir, are long enough here to know the score. You make your argument strong and hard and leave the personal stuff out.

    Enough said. Thank you and good night!

  • Mick Fealty

    I wouldn’t think so. The gentleman in question has posted 11 times on the two football threads under 11 different names. All now removed.

  • John East Belfast

    Mick

    Absolutely incredible that this kind of false posting could go on.

    I assume UI et al can now realise that a lot of what has been said about the NI fans was downright lies!

    Mick you should have left the 8.57 post where it was and wrote on the top THIS IS A LIE – rather than removing it – it is a good example to all here of how low some people will stoop.

    [personal remarks removed – mod]

  • Mick Fealty

    UI?

  • John East Belfast

    I think this whole thread is GAME SET & MATCH for the Green & White Army – and more importantly – THE TRUTH

  • maca

    Mick, personally I do think you’ve given UI a raw deal there, considering the insults some people (JEB) were throwing at him. His responses were a lot more civil than what the ‘insulters’ deserved

  • Paul

    This is perhaps true maca, but as per usual with any threads about the N.Ireland international team,it was hijacked by people who are only interested in viciously slandering the supporters.

    UI was not the worse in this regard but he’s fallen for the lies of others hook line and sinker. This sets the tone early on, and people naturally become defensive when they see themselves and their families being labelled as sectarian bigots and hooligans.

    I can no longer see the point in debating this issue with people who hate both the team and their supporters and will only be happy when the team that I follow has been destroyed.

  • maca

    Paul
    “and people naturally become defensive when they see themselves and their families being labelled as sectarian bigots and hooligans.”

    I know the feeling. Many (most) GAA discussions here go the same route. Do we stop discussing altogether?

  • Paul

    Maca

    “Do we stop discussing altogether?”

    Only with those who are not interested in genuinely improving the situation. You know that you’re not included in that group.

  • darthrumsfeld

    “If you mean why do ROI fans, whose team play in green, wear Celtic shirts who also play in green, I’m guessing it has to do with the fact that well…both teams play in green. That’s my best guess. If you have another theory I’d like to hear it.”

    LOL- but just to test the theory, there’s another team that plays in green, has the word “Ireland” in the name, and plays a lot closer to ireland thatn Glasgow. How many plastic paddies, distraught that their “home” shirt had sold out in JJB sports, walked past the rows of Cellik shirts and bought one from our wee country?

    of course if that isn’t an option for the principled Republican, there’s always Glentoran (too prod?), Plymouth Argyle(English!!!), Hibernian (er,more Scottish than irish),or….Donegal Cellik-success!

    Do you know , for one awful moment I thought the celtic jerseys were worn by people who were(gulp) just as sectarian as the people they criticise, but with an added film of smug superiority. Remind us again of all those Man U fans in Dublin cheering on their heroes Butt, Beckham and ferdinand at the last World Cup.

  • maca

    Paul
    “Only with those who are not interested in genuinely improving the situation”

    So who decides who fits into this category? 🙂

  • maca

    darthrumsfeld
    So if you had a Glentoran, Plymouth Argyle or Hibs shirt you’d never consider wearing them to an NI game (assunming you didn’t have an NI shirt)? Never? Not ever?

  • John T Tim

    UI

    You say that the booing of the Rangers player (best thing was that it wasn’t even a Rangers player, it was one of the subs who had been mis-introduced as a Rangers player who was still on the bench)during an ROI could be explained by the fact that alot of ROI fans are also Celtic fans. I can accept this and do not think it is sectarian. It is not unusual for fans to boo a player who plays for their greatest rivals.

    However, as we all well know, alot of the NI fans are also Rangers fans. Is it not fair then to assume that Hartson was getting booed for the same reason that the (non)Rangers player was getting booed during the ROI game.

  • maca

    John
    “Is it not fair then to assume that Hartson was getting booed for the same reason that the (non)Rangers player was getting booed during the ROI game.”

    If I may offer my opinion…
    I think it is fair to assume that. HOWEVER the booing of Rangers players by ROI fans is often used as an example of sectarianism amongst ROI fans. So what about the booing of Hartson? It’s a fair question.

  • Democratic

    To all:
    Firstly let me make this clear I am a huge Northern Ireland fan and have been from my school days – they are the ONLY team I truely support and the ONLY team whose matches affect me emotionally in any way. Now that’s out of the way I think it is time for some straight talking – there has always been bigots at Windsor Park as long as I can remember – and some very dark times with the ’93 match against Jack Charlton’s ROI and the Neil Lennon debacle being the worst for our public image. Further to my last point I think that there will always be bigots at Windsor – just as there will always be bigots in Northern Ireland – we must be realistic here – bigots love football just like everyone else and those bigots of a Loyalist bent will naturally gravitate toward our team (unfortunately!) as opposed to our ROI neighbours – the best you can hope for is to drown such people out or make them uncomfortable enough to look elsewhere for their close-minded political motivated jollies – supporting England is the current favorite (Johnny Adair style) – or at least it was until we stuck it up Sven’s boys 4 weeks ago! Let’s be honest here without patronising anyone – the IFA have made huge strides in bringing the voices of the true NI supporters to the fore and putting the bigots in the background (I honestly do not feel that eradicating such people from our game entirely is realistic or attainable but the effort must always be made)- it was/is a huge task – but it seems to pain our unshakable detractors to even acknowledge the effort never mind the obvious positive advancements which to me are merely a work in progress and not a result in themselves – “Football for All” is the aim – but I think people confuse the ethos of that statement with a concerted effort to bring Nationalists on board – this is not the case – the idea is that ANYONE coming to the matches can enjoy the football without feeling uncomfortable or intimidated in anyway and the matches are free from sectarian or political trappings – I know as much as any of our detractors that our aim is not yet achieved and where politics are concerned this circle is almost impossible to square for anything associated with the title “Northern Ireland” (and for the record I fully support the idea of a neutral anthem and flag as I think a lot of supporters do) But anyway I have attended matchs in the early nineties when the Kop’s favorite songs were about Linfield or Rangers rather than the Northern Ireland team they were watching – those days and hopefully a lot of those so-called supporters are gone – and over the last few years I have found my love for my team rekindled and fanned until the night so many of us had been waiting on finally came a few weeks ago when we put one over one of the big guns of the national game. I find myself somewhere in between the viewpoints during the political arguments which ensue here on Slugger with alarming regularity when the Northern Ireland team are discussed – I can see two very distinct extremes outside the moderates – there are those who despise our very existence for various reasons and go to what I consider great lengths to make sure that our team and support will never shake off the bad press that they admittedly earned themselves in the bad old days and hang on like limpets to anything with a sniff of controversy (my personal favorite was a poster complaining of the anti-Catholic sectarianism of the IFA in their refusal to sanction Sunday matches!) Then there are those amongst our support who can see no wrong and (in my opinion) alienate and entrench some people who may originally have had more open minds toward our cause by attacking honest punters with justifiable concerns and criticisms with OTT self-righteousness, denials of responsibility and whataboutery regards the ROI team / GAA etc. While some of the points made are perfectly justifiable this is not the way to make friends and influence people lads! We still have problems and while admitting to them may give our most noisy detractors a field day in the short term in the long run I think the more numerous moderates and all those with open minds will offer us a more sympathetic policy. For example a friend of mine watched the England match in Spain in an Irish bar and made himself and his company known to the staff and punters in a social and friendly manner – they then kindly put on our game on one of their smaller screens while the majority of punters where watching their boys against the French – when we won the ROI supporters (who were mostly from south of the border if that is relevant)gave us a huge cheer and the staff send over a tray of drinks to the NI table – lovely gesture! Anyway – regarding the Welsh game – the booing of the anthem was totally wrong and a childish revenge against those Welshmen who had booed our anthem and in a couple of incidents assaulted our fans in bars around Cardiff – this is not an excuse but merely an illustration of the NI supporters motivations in opposition to the sectarianism charge being bandied about. One of the main matchday guidelines at Windsor is that no disrespect is to be shown to any guests anthems – and those that booed let us down – there is no defense despite any provocation. The booing of John Hartson – If there were those that were booing him because of the Celtic connection then this is indefensible – I heard nothing sectarian or anti-catholic myself – but I am not naive enough to believe that some of the bigots among our support could have resisted the chance -almost certainly among those who hold dual allegiances with Glasgow Rangers – something I have never shared myself. I must admit that I booed him as did others as pure gamesmanship as I thought (wrongly) that he could be forced into losing it with a bit of stick and get himself booked Rooney style – and also and perhaps more honestly because I thought he was a overweight clogger with a nasty temper who likes to dish it out a little too much for my tastes – in all honesty his club football means nothing to me.
    Officially I think booing anyone is wrong and childish (apart from Robbie Savage obviously who has mercifully retired from the international game!)but lets face it people who cry over 22 men kicking a bit of leather pumped with air about a field (yes I include myself here) will never be known for setting benchmarks in maturity! As for the “monkey chants” – there is no case to answer – the chant was “CHEAT” – this charge I will defend to the hilt as it is either at best mis-representation or at worst complete fabrication.
    In closing I reiterate that Northern Ireland as my team have problems especially where our support is concerned in very specific areas – our efforts need to be re-doubled to achieve our aim with the “Football for All” campaign especially on the issue of flags and anthems (those “No Surrender!” proclaimers make me cringe every time!) But please people just don’t write us off as a bunch of “orange” bigots with no Rangers match to go to and while such a tag may doubtlessly be true for a minority among our support (and realistically this may always be the case as such people will always exist in my opinion)nothing could be further from the truth for the vast majority of true Northern Ireland supporters who I come into regular contact with – we are not worthy of your contempt as a team or as a fanbase.

  • slug

    I am very glad that Mick was willing to reveal that people are using multiple ids to claim stories of sectarianism that they really made up.

    It should act as a deterrent to others. Tempting it may be to invent a ‘character’ with a story that reflects negatively on the other side. But honest it isn’t.

  • maca

    Good post Democratic. Although a tad too long for my tastes 🙂

  • Fan for Change

    Great post Democratic…right on the mark.

    Although I agree with maca, writing style is similar to Leo Tolstoy.

    One more point on the flag thing. At least lets get rid of its blood-stained hand from the middle. How fitting it is that NI, with so many groups with blood on their hands, would have a bloody hand right in the middle of the flag? Not just a drop or two mind you, but soaked in blood. How many nations have such a flag?

    The vast, vast majority of NI fans are the greatest fans of any sporting club in the world.

  • Disco Dave

    darthrumsfeld

    “Remind us again of all those Man U fans in Dublin cheering on their heroes Butt, Beckham and ferdinand at the last World Cup”

    I see your point, but for the sake of pedantry, wasn’t Rio still with the infidels in Leeds at the last world cup?

  • John East Belfast

    maca

    Perhaps I allowed a red mist to descend over me on this issue – I trust I don’t have a reputation of playing the man not the ball.

    I was sick to the teeth of certain individuals labelling the majority of NI fans as sectarian bigots.
    Howvever I feel such anger was justified when it was finally outed last night that many of the posts on the incident were fabricated lies.

    Sometimes when you are faced with downright intransigence and a pack of lies a well placed insult is the best approach. By not having this weapon then the internet just becomes a forum for all kinds of nutters to sound off mad views ?

  • maca

    JEB
    I can understand that John because we all face it on certain issues at some stage. I’m not sure I agree that “a well placed insult is the best approach”. Though it does provide some degree of immediate satisfaction, it doesn’t do your arguments any good.
    But who am I to talk, i’ve had my fair share of posts deleted….

  • Bapper

    I agree with the thoughts on the flag. I like the background and colours, but it is time to move on from the red hand.

    The red hand = motorcycle and ski mask for me.

  • roger

    Interesting perspective on the events surrounding and during the game, on the OWC forum

    Sammy G

    “Booing the Welsh anthem and Hartson aren’t arrestable offences but they are against the IFA code of conduct and should result in people being removed from the ground.

    Racist ‘monkey’ chants, sectarian abuse, throwing bottles/tins and breaking seats are all arrestable offences and the cnuts involved should be lifted.

    If you read my post I said that the peelers should go in IF the stewards won’t do their job. This is what happens every weekend in the rest of the UK so why shouldn’t it happen at WP.”

    Rimble Rams

    “Have to say I was thoroughly ashamed and deeply embarassed by a number of episodes today, not least when that kid in a ROI top was nearly decapitated by a rain of bottles! Then when we got back on the bus this neanderthal who had been throwing bottles went for one of the boys who had the temerity to tell him what a complete tw@ he was – nob. Add to that the bricking of the bus on the WestLink, the booing of the anthem, the racist abuse of Earnshaw and the totally predictable booing of Hartson, all in all not a good day… plus I heard there was a riot outside Hunters!!!! What the friar tuck is going on????? “

    Lazioman

    “Equally kool and twendy were the defenders of the faith belting out ‘No Surrender’ as if they were swigging cheap ale in The Field. It was more pronounced than it has been, now whether these people are riding on the back of GAWA with an increased sense of confidence and reflected glory is anyone’s guess but that was a majority of Kopites giving it the big NS today ……”

    Bryan

    “Booing John Hartson was blatantly sectarian especially when you have people around you calling him a ‘fat f****n celtic b*****d’ every time he touches the ball.
    Does any of the bigots behind this actually know John Hartson’s religion? Simply because he plays for Celtic he is immediately categorised as coming from a certain background – pathetic!
    Unfortunately this type of ‘old firm’ culture is engrained within elements of our support. Symbolised by the NS that remains an integral part of GSTQ. Rule Britannia has become a replacement for the sash etc in my view & not appropriate for NI matches
    An integral part of the FFA campaign in my view is to make a welcoming environment for ALL at Windsor. I want all of NI to support our national team but this sort of behaviour will not encourage people of a different persuasion to attend international matches”

    Ni Timmy

    “It was disgraceful. Two kids (about 13 y.o.) walked past the square where our buses were parked. One of them unzipped his top and showed his republic shirt. There was a bit of a laugh when we chanted “who are you” and “one team in ireland”. But for some reason a couple of dicks from the back of bus 4 chucked about 5 glass bottles at them. The glass showered everywhere scaring the sh1t out of the wee lads. The fact that there were loads of members of the public going past aswell probably won’t help us.”

  • Paul

    roger
    The positive aspect of these comments is that they are coming from N.Ireland fans themselves. The problems that do exist, will be solved by the vast majority of decent fans who follow the N. Ireland not by the people who hate both the team and its supporters.

    So what’s your point in highlighting them? Wishing to reignite the nastiness that affected this thread last night?

    How about a bit more of a positive approach- how would you tackle the problems highlighted?

  • maca

    Paul, if anything those comments posted by Roger actually helped your argument here. It’s good to see IMO.

  • Paul

    maca,
    yes, I know and it was one of the good points that “Democratic” made in his post today, that if progress is to continue this kind of self-criticism is vital.

    Just wasn’t sure what “roger” motivation was in posting it, perhaps I’m being a bit hard on him. He was maybe trying to show how the decent fans react to the morons who undoubtedly still exist within the fanbase.

    Anyway, off to Vienna Wed. morning.
    Looking forward to a fun couple of days; culture,bier, currywurst and Northern Ireland-doesn’t get better than that!

  • maca

    Enjoy the game Paul, hope you lose (just kidding :))

  • Gonzo

    I’m closing this rather long thread to direct you to this one to try and shift debate along!