Six held over Gray's killing…

That’s fairly quick for Northern Ireland standards. This discussion on Morning Ireland (sound file) indicates it may have been part of a local fragmentation of the UDA. Jim McDowell points out that in contrast to 1994 when the Loyalists took only six weeks to follow the IRA’s ceasefire, the paramilitaries of today are a patchwork quilt of local barons, rather than a coherent movement – an increasingly loose Association in fact.

  • peteb

    While I’ll wait to see if any charges follow, involvement of the UDA is “a major line of inquiry” according to the police.. that’s the same UDA that the government continues to maintain is on cease-fire.

  • smcgiff

    ‘an increasingly loose Association in fact.’

    UDA – Ulster Defence Acquaintances?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    peteb,
    The Ulster Defence Association, it’s youth wing the Ulster Young Militants and it’s military wing, the Ulster Freedom Fighters are committed to maintaining their ceasefire. This is in the face of constant pressure from local communities in the areas they live. The point I’ve heard coming from a lot of Protestant/Loyalist men and women is:
    “Sure what’s the point of the D.A. being on ceasefire when the Republicans turn on the violence to suit them. They rioted in Ardoyne on the Twelfth and what happened…the Apprentice Boys were re-routed in August to appease them”.

    The indisputable fact is that there is a growing apathy in working-class areas towards the so-called peace-process, and where it is heading. They believe loyalists should ape the tactics of SF/IRA and threaten to bring out the guns of the UFF unless concessions are gained. That’s the long and the short of it I’m afraid.

    Getting back to the title of the thread, where is the evidence that proves the brigade staff of the UDA/UFF sanctioned Gray’s killing? It was more likely to have been maverick UDA members or possibly the LVF, who hated Gray…in 2002 they shot him in the face in East Belfast, when they wrongly believed UDA men under his command shot dead LVF drug-dealer Stephen Warnock.

  • Mick

    CL, there isn’t any. I’ve not knowingly implied that either. If you listen to the conversation it seems to specifically rule that possiblity out.

  • peteb

    CL

    What they say about themselves is of little consequence.. it’s the acceptance of a non-existent situation by the government that is of concern.

  • Dick Doggins

    “The Ulster Defence Association, it’s youth wing the Ulster Young Militants and it’s military wing, the Ulster Freedom Fighters are committed to maintaining their ceasefire.”

    CL does mean that criminality, intimidation and widespread drug dealing fall within the UDA`s conception of a ceasefire?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Jim McDowell and the overtly nationalist rag he edits, the Sunday World, seem to thrive on incidents like these. (Before anyone reminds me, yes I know McDowell is a Protestant from South Belfast). They take the opportunity to ridicule and deliberately misrepresent loyalism, stereotyping it as an ideology supported by drug-dealers, extortionists and other assorted low-lifes.

    For this reason, anyone who wants objective reporting on loyalism should steer well clear of the Sunday World and it’s “insight” into the different groups that live in the loyalist communities…they haven’t a clue.

  • victor1

    CL

    They believe loyalists should ape the tactics of SF/IRA and threaten to bring out the guns of the UFF unless concessions are gained.

    What have these Loyalists been doing with thier Guns over the last 35yrs, one would think they have never fired a shot in anger!

    The Ulster Defence Association, it’s youth wing the Ulster Young Militants and it’s military wing, the Ulster Freedom Fighters are committed to maintaining their ceasefire.

    How is it possible to maintain thier ceasefire when they never began one in the first place! None of the Loyalists have seriously been in ceasefire mode ask the family of Danny 1McColgan murdered by a UDA who were on ceasefire.

    As for the six arrested over the Gray killing I suspect a debriefing exercise by Special Branch!

  • bo shank

    bit suspect gray getting murdered while out on bail, half a mile away from PSNI HQ. Is it just me or should he not have been under police surveillance?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Dick Doggins,
    “criminality, intimidation and widespread drug-dealing”;
    Are you basing this on fact, or on the twin-track policy of criminalization of loyalism and politicization of republicanism, which is currently being fed to you by H.M.G. and nationalist detractors?

  • circles

    “The indisputable fact is that there is a growing apathy in working-class areas towards the so-called peace-process, and where it is heading. They believe loyalists should ape the tactics of SF/IRA and threaten to bring out the guns of the UFF unless concessions are gained. That’s the long and the short of it I’m afraid.”

    CL – I know that people perceive the passing of time differently, but I don’t actually believe that in the unionist/loyalist community the clocks stopped in the mid-70’s – no matter what you post.
    To ape the tactics of “SF/IRA” (I mean really – why is this invention of an acronym still being wheeled out by bogey men seeking loyalists?) would involve the UFF engaging in a process in which all their weapons are put verifiably beyond use. Now you can twist that as much as you want, but you still can’t turn it round to a situation where the IRA are threatening to take out their guns.
    Grays murder underlines once more (in case we could have forgotten) that violent loyalism has collapsed into itself, has absolutely no political vision and appears incraesingly to be a weak excuse for nutcases to drive about dealing and acting the big lad.

  • victor1

    CL
    “The police found a bank draft for 10,000 euro and nearly £3,000 in cash in his car.

    Gray claimed the money had come from the sale of two pubs in east Belfast.

    However, police believed it was obtained through crime including extortion and drug dealing. “

    Wasn’t Gray a Brigadier of a Loyalist organisation until recently ? I think Dick Doggins points in respect of criminality require no further explanation, to try and say otherwise would be fantasy beyond comprehension something from FAIRY land!

  • Dick Doggins

    Cl
    “criminality, intimidation and widespread drug-dealing”

    Are you now saying the UDA isn`t one of the biggest importers and peddlers of Drugs across N.Ireland?

    So they`re not involved in any criminality such as armed robberies of cash laden vans delievering to banks, counterfeiting and off course intimidation of any sort?

    Thank-you for correcting me and convincing me its all republican proganda…..

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I want to make something crystal clear. The UDA had been investigating Jim Gray and his activities for some time before he was expelled from the Association. I believe they didn’t stand him down sooner as they wanted to wait for the right moment, anxious to avoid a repeat of the unsavoury and mindless bloodletting that followed Johnny “Sad Dog” Adair’s expulsion and resultant exiling. Men of the ilk of Gray and Adair have no place in an organisation that was primarily set up as an umbrella organisation for local “defence associations” in loyalist areas of Ulster. Their only loyalty is crime…they didn’t defend their communities, they degraded them.

  • willis

    CL
    “The indisputable fact is that there is a growing apathy in working-class areas towards the so-called peace-process, and where it is heading. They believe loyalists should ape the tactics of SF/IRA and threaten to bring out the guns of the UFF unless concessions are gained. That’s the long and the short of it I’m afraid.”

    Ah the fabled Loyalist Backlash.

    The real problem for working-class Protestants is that neither the UUP or DUP really care about them. They are a reliable source of mayhem so why should the DUP/UUP ever get anything sorted for them?

  • Colm

    .. they didn’t defend their communitie, they degraded them.

    An fitting summation of the activities of every terrorist organisation on both sides and everything they did during the last 35 + years.

  • circles

    Colm – lets not try and be even handed here – we’re talking about armed loyalism in disarray, nothing else. This isn’t about both sides, its about a gang masquerading behind the facade of being a “defence association” (defence against what I ask myself – against themselves?) while knockin out coke, e, whatever ya fanvy, extorting from that building site down the road, shooting other loyalists to death that kind of thing.
    The only worry is that they’ll revert to that old unifying tactic of shotting innocent people because they think they might be catholics.

  • missfitz

    “They take the opportunity to ridicule and deliberately misrepresent loyalism, stereotyping it as an ideology supported by drug-dealers, extortionists and other assorted low-lifes.”

    …. tough job, someone gotta do it….

  • victor1

    “They take the opportunity to ridicule and deliberately misrepresent loyalism, stereotyping it as an ideology supported by drug-dealers, extortionists and other assorted low-lifes.”

    Nah…thats awful….. big bad Sunday World burn thier papers I say, oh too late they’ve been there done that!!!

  • forest

    Concerned loyalist-the uda are committed to maintaining their ceasefire?ABSOLUTE BOLLOCKS.Just ask the innocent catholics in north antrim who’ve been forced out of their homes and forced to endure crap from uprg spokesman darran smyth blaming republicans for “raising tensions”.A flagrant attempt to justify ethnic cleansing

  • El Matador @ El Blogador

    For a growing apathy in working-class areas towards the so-called peace-process, and where it is heading

    read “a growing apathy among scumbags who have never worked a day in their lives and are looking for any excuse to cause trouble.”

    Are you seriously saying that the spides and millies such as the ones at Carnmoney graveyard know the meaning of work, still less that we should give a toss what they think? (are they capable of thinking?)

    Every act of terrorism/ intimidation/ violence is blamed on nationalists/ republicans. Why don’t these idiots with their Belfast Facelifts (i.e. hair pulled back so tight into a ponytail that their facial skin is stone solid taut), 10kg fake gold earrings, badly made ‘Burberry’ baseball caps and tracksuit ‘uniforms’, face the fact that they are their own worst enemies, and drag down their own areas with their scummy activities.

    Nationalists/ republicans just have to sit back and watch as they tear their own communities apart.

  • Wally

    Concerned Loyalist,

    For this reason, anyone who wants objective reporting on loyalism should steer well clear of the Sunday World and it’s “insight” into the different groups that live in the loyalist communities…they haven’t a clue.*

    What about those of us that use/read all the newspapers and other media outlets. Listen to police statements and actually speak to and work with loyalist paramilitaries do we not have a clue if we happen to agree with Jim Mc Dowell.
    Anyone can form an opinion when faced with the facts, unless off course you have been cross-bred with an ostrich. Maybe not cross-bred! It appears to be a genetic thing in this statelet, in both sides of the community. Maybe I will suggest that to my peers. Research into whether ostrich type behaviour is genetic or a learnt behaviour in certain communities.

  • joe

    I find it interesting that the PSNI/ARA targetted and arrested Gray only after he was removed from the UDA, I’m sure both afore mentioned organisations could do as quick a job on other known loyalist leaders should they desire to do so yet we hear nothing from Allen Mc Quillan or the PSNI on this. It also stated on BBC news last night that “Gray was killed while under PSNI protection”. Curiouser and curiouser.

  • victor1

    I have just heard Frankie Lavery of the Loyalist UPRG stating Gray was guilty of war crimes equal to those in the Balkansand therefore he got what was coming,,,the hypocrisy is astounding!

  • victor1

    My appologies Frankie Gallagher of the UPRG.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    C.L.: “The Ulster Defence Association, it’s youth wing the Ulster Young Militants and it’s military wing, the Ulster Freedom Fighters are committed to maintaining their ceasefire.”

    Ceasefire… lesee – a compound word, made up of “cease,” meaning to stop or end, and “fire,” in this instance, referring to the discharging of firearms. Yet, strangely, Mr. Gray was, if I understand the news item, shot. I don’t think this word means what you think it does, LC.

    LC: ” This is in the face of constant pressure from local communities in the areas they live.”

    What pressure would that be — deliver the drugs and the laundered money on time?

    LC: “The point I’ve heard coming from a lot of Protestant/Loyalist men and women is:
    “Sure what’s the point of the D.A. being on ceasefire when the Republicans turn on the violence to suit them. They rioted in Ardoyne on the Twelfth and what happened…the Apprentice Boys were re-routed in August to appease them”.”

    Given the OO recent track record of “peaceful marches,” complete with UDA firearms discharges, if this really a valid point? Or is it the organization level equivalent of peer pressure — “Gee, Ma, everyone’s doing it, so why can’t we?”

    LC: “The indisputable fact is that there is a growing apathy in working-class areas towards the so-called peace-process, and where it is heading. They believe loyalists should ape the tactics of SF/IRA and threaten to bring out the guns of the UFF unless concessions are gained.”

    What guns?

    LC: “Getting back to the title of the thread, where is the evidence that proves the brigade staff of the UDA/UFF sanctioned Gray’s killing? It was more likely to have been maverick UDA members or possibly the LVF, who hated Gray…in 2002 they shot him in the face in East Belfast, when they wrongly believed UDA men under his command shot dead LVF drug-dealer Stephen Warnock.”

    Qui bono, LC. Who stands to benefit from Gray’s death? Admittedly, it has the limitation of being an application of logic on this sort of affair, but its at least a good place to start.

  • tra g

    Any statements from Michael Copeland, ulster unionist MLA for East Belfast about the killing ?

  • Ronan

    The Sunday World is one of the few media outlets that has the balls to slap it up to paramilitaries on both sides. Well done and keep up the good work.

  • Ronan

    The Sunday World is one of the few media outlets that has the balls to slap it up the paramilitaries on both sides. Well done and keep up the good work.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    The Sunday World is a disgrace, pure and simple. They stoke up tension by sensationalising every story relating to Ulster’s paramilitaries. I understand they do this to sell papers but they don’t think of the consequences of some of their throwaway remarks, accusations and labelling of certain people as paramilitants-in short they put people’s lives at risk…