So what, says Gregory, “the clock cannot be turned back to last Thursday…”

vote-leave-nhs-350-million-brexit

I have to say Gregory Campbell is right. The clock cannot be turned back to last Thursday. The people have spoken (the b@st@rds). Here’s Stephen Nolan grilling him on Leave’s magnificent bait and switch on the electorate in the poster above…

Sorry to keep repeating it over and over, but here’s Paul’s salient ‘Why Referendums Should Be Banned‘.  They are NOT elections, so that conveniently no one on the Leave side can be held accountable for any apparent promises made, whether in government or not.

This is an aspiration (rather than a promise) that they KNEW could and would not be fulfilled when they printed the poster . As Gregory points out there are other hungry mouths that must feed as and when the EU money runs out.

Farmers need their cut. And they will come knocking if the DUP/Conservatives fail to pay up, or force the distributors/consumers to pay a lot more for food. So will Whitehall when the UK government has to start paying for the services that Berlaymont has been providing for 43 years.

How much the NHS gets depends who is Chancellor of the Exchequer (NB it won’t be Gisela Stuart, who’s somewhat feckless promise this was in the first place), and how much is left of the British economy after a prolonged period uncertainty.

Leave wasn’t run on short-term economic or fiscal arguments, it was run on free market ideological grounds.  The result was all that matter to them. Kitchen sinks (many of them likely to be domestic) have been broken in the fray. Who knew?

Welcome to UK amateur hour. Pat Rabitte anyone?

, , , ,

  • john millar

    “Farmers need their cut. And they will come knocking if the DUP/Conservatives fail to pay up, ”

    You might cast your mind back to the squeeking from the farming community when the detail (and identity) of the recipients of individual Single farm payments were made public.

    Howls of anger- to such an extent that the information disappeared from public view
    They may knock — but they may get a dusty answere

  • Zorin001

    It’s a mistake to see the Leave campaign as one generic mass. It took in all sorts, Free-Marketers, Neo-Liberalists, Anti-Immigrationists, pro-sovereignty campaigners. There has never been a coherent plan on what was to happen the day after a Brexit vote. Can we really be surprised that they are rolling back on all their claims and promises now that reality has begun to bite?

    I fear those who voted Leave are in for a shock. I can understand why large swathes of England did vote out, for the past 20 – 30 years they have seen their livelihoods destroyed and massive wealth inequality gather and grow. Into this mix came mass-immigration, a convenient scapegoat for those in the political classes to provide cover for their own damaging decisions.

    So now we have an Exit vote and the keys to the kingdom have been passed to a bunch of fanatic Free-Marketers. I fear that once the dust settles we are about to see Neo-Liberalism on steroids, not more of the same but worse of the same.

  • LiamÓhÉ

    To Article 50 or not to Article 50? The UK is in meltdown mode, a political vacuum is present, and now they are camping in the hallway even though they had declared they would leave after their divisive campaign. A campaign that has irrevocably harmed European and international goodwill towards the UK.

    Pressing the A50 red button will ruin the economy, and they may seek soft-EU membership / EFTA without A50, but they will still be stuck with a divided nation who will not be content with their government ignoring their mandate, and we have yet to see what the response will be from the EU institutions including the heads of state.

    For NI, wait and see is still pragmatic, but I hope there are high-level discussions going on behind the scenes. I have little faith in the DUP for cognising the dangers, but one hopes UUP/SDLP/SF/Alliance are more favourable?

  • Tochais Siorai

    I’ve a feeling that if Gregory got the chance, he’d turn the clock back a lot further than last Thursday…….

  • terence patrick hewett

    As a general principle: if you want to sell people a fake rube it is best not to start by abusing them. Let me remind you of the invective aimed at, as we now know, more than 50% of the electorate:

    “Senile old farts, fruitcakes, loonies, nutters, gadflies, fascists, dullards, Nazis,
    blazer wearers, Colonel-Blimps in blazers, BNP in blazers, Brownshirts in blazers, anti-EU-Taliban, clowns, racists, bigots, closet racists, poor blue-collar losers, saloon-bar bores, coffin-dodgers, golf-club bores, swivel-eyed loons, computer illiterates, little Englanders, know-nothing loudmouths, ill-educated, ill-qualified and pretty unpleasant and odd people

    Boggle-eyed collection of malcontents, vacuum-cleaner-onanists, d*kheads, knobs, grumpy old men, the disappointed elderly, rats, the lycra clad-tattooed, whinging, vile, despicable, abhorrent, whining, rabble-rousers, boors, twats, un-British,
    lily-livered-doormats, daft, self-pitying, xenophobic, four-ale- bar drunks, intellectually-frightened-milksops, bigot-chimps, filth, extreme nationalists, racist halfwits, protectionists, backward-looking, cultists, Euro-bores, rabid, weird people, populists, a bacillus, a rabble, English flag wavers, brutish and low-grade, friendly people waiting to die

    Angry people, pariahs, Tory toxins, beer-swillers, sour-lipped populists, the Tory
    fifth-column, an infection, damaged goods, absurd, ignorant, neo-fascists, the septic and the geriatric, the empty-headed led by the foul-minded, cynical, corrosive, pernicious, racist filth, disgruntled elderly, dog-end voters, Faragebola”

    And then compound the sin by trying to frighten and blackmail them deserves everything they get.

  • I’ve become accustomed to Gregory Campbell as the DUP’s debate battering ram, prepared to splutter out a torrential amount of contradictory muck in defence of his party to deal with whatever uncomfortable questions come at him.

    I’m getting remainders of Nolan LIVE back in November on Sinn Féin and the IRA Army Council, a classic in Campbell’s compulsive ad nauseum.

  • Chingford Man

    “There has never been a coherent plan”

    Of course there wasn’t. The Leave side was not a government and would have had no business in getting bogged down in the issue. You should be asking why the Government and civil service had no adequate contingency plans in the event of Leave winning, and why Cameron and Osborne went AWOL over the weekend. It’s not as if there was a Punishment Budget to write.

  • Jollyraj

    Not quite as far as the more extreme elements of Irish Republicanism would like to turn the clock back, mind

  • chrisjones2

    “Pressing the A50 red button will ruin the economy” ….it may do but the EU will just have to adjust to the problems forcing us out causes in its economy

  • Kevin Breslin

    I am willing to bet the NHS gets “un grand gros rien” from Le Brexit.

  • Stayin

    The DUP have done what the IRA, ROI Gov, S.F. Have failed to do to me in the past 50 years. They have driven me to apply for a ROI European passport. As a Unionist I am discussed with the disrespect they have shown to their Northern Ireland constituents,they even took out a leave advert in the Metro newspaper. The only good thing to come out of this is that their supporters will see the path to destruction they have been lead down but there again you would need intelligents to see this.

  • Katyusha

    I’m somewhat astonished, Chingford, that no-one on the Leave side appears to have any aims as to how the UK should shape itself outside the EU. It’s just been “we want to leave” and that’s that.

    What were you even campaigning for? How can you not have a plan?
    Is there no vision of what Britain should be like in the modern world? No version of the Scottish White Paper on independence? Not even personal aspirations?

    Frankly, I don’t blame Cameron for leaving you to sort out your own mess.
    It’s an abdication of responsibility on his part, but you got what you wanted. Even if you can’t agree on what you want.

  • Katyusha

    That poster deserves to be bill-posted across the UK after this result. I’m all in favour of never letting the leave campaign live this down until they actually find £350m in extra funding for the NHS somewhere.
    It’s so fabulously ironic, and very striking at the same time. I’m sure it will be popping up in children’s history textbooks in twenty years time.

  • Chingford Man

    We know the ends and we persuaded 17 million people, more than have voted for any party at any UK election in history, to support them. That is now set in stone. It’s now up to the government to work out the means. I expect it to set out a road map for the fulfilment of the people’s wishes in the near future.

    UKIP is there to keep Johnson and Gove honest. Any backsliding and we are ready to pounce.

    PS Farage has already set out his vision of the future. Try a You Tube search and stop showing your ignorance.

  • Katyusha

    Do you know the ends, Chingford?
    Is Britain going to have a free trade deal with Europe? Are you going to join the EEA?
    Will you have to accept free movement of labour? What will your immigration system look like?

    Nobody knows. If they do, they need to get on a platform and articulate it, because our country desperately needs it right now. The only one to have done so is Boris, and that has gone down swimmingly: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access

  • Skibo

    The Brexiteers said the farm payments would remain the same. Are you saying they will row back from that pledge also?

  • hgreen

    Great. The vast majority of MPs are for remaining in the EU. Should they just ignore the referendum result until the next election?

  • hgreen

    Looking forward to seeing the 1 UKIP MP pounce.

  • hgreen

    Yep. Dan Hannan hates the NHS.

  • Keith

    Yes Indeed. What I find interesting is that the very tendency to ignore, or dismiss in such terms as you quote, the views of people with concerns about the direction of the EU is arguably the very thing that has brought us to this point. It’s also arguably fuelling exactly the same euro-scepticism in other countries.
    The results of the referendum did not really surprise me. Dismissing the genuinely held concerns of people (valid or not is by the way), over many years, has produced this result.

  • Declan Doyle

    You were not forced out by anyone. The democratic will of the people decided on exit. Nobody was pushed. The chaos now is part expected and part deliberate punishment. In the long term one hopes it will settle down and the UK will thrive. But if it doesn’t, if it does turn out to deliver years of decline and reveals to be the wrong move, be man enough to say you got it wrong.

  • notimetoshine

    Quite an accurate description of many of the more strident brexit supporters. Having said that I think most on the remain side just see those who voted brexit as having being sucked up into some rabble rousing populist, punish the establishment at any cost ill informed campaign.

  • NotNowJohnny

    Their supporters aren’t known for recognising the path to destruction. The DUP and its forebearers have consistently led generations of supporters further and further away from the unionist idyllic which they crave. It began with the rejection of O’Neill’s Reforms which led to the council of Ireland and nationalists in government. Rejecting Sunningdale they then ended up with the Anglo Irish agreement and the Irish secretariat. Rejecting that they then got all Ireland bodies and the provos in government. Still in rejection mode and apoplectic at the thought, they finally had to settle for a deal with a former Provo as joint first minister. Not content with that they now have backed a decision which actually weakens the union and makes a UI, while not inevitable, so much more likely. Needless to say their supporters will keep voting for them.

  • Mer Curial

    INdeed

  • Mer Curial

    If I had to guess probably as far back as at least Cromwell 😉

  • Chingford Man

    They will be in serious trouble if they do not deliver a British exit from the EU. Never worry – UKIP will pounce on them if there is any backsliding.

  • Chingford Man

    The end is British departure from the EU and control of UK borders. Don’t worry, Nigel Farage will be articulating a road map very soon, if others fail to do so.

  • terence patrick hewett

    You don’t learn from yr mistakes do you.

    To paraphrase Bruce Willis in his film “Diehard”

    A*shole? I’m not the one who just got b*tt-f*cked on national TV – *Dwayne*.

  • Zorin001

    And what else about from border controls? Radical Liberalism, Corporatism, economic shock therapy?

    That’s why we need an election, to give both sides a chance to set out their stall for their vision of a post-EU Britain.

    We have given the radical fringe of the Tory party the opportunity to radically alter the very fabric of British society, given their previous exploits in power that terrifies me.

  • Chingford Man

    Don’t worry about the Tories. UKIP will be in the Commons in sufficient numbers to keep all others honest.

  • Obelisk

    Nigel Farage is in no position to do anything and telling us it’ll be fine once he unveils his roadmap as akin to American voters discussing Bernie Sander’s plans for his first 100 days as US President.

    I want to hear the plans from the people who have actual power now, Johnson and Gove. I want to see how they plan to fix this mess. Or more aptly, try and tragically fail.

  • Zorin001

    I fear that First Past the Post will put paid to that just like last time.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Are you now saying that it is more offensive to call, say, a racist a racist than is, say, racism itself?

  • Brendan Heading

    The Leave side was not a government and would have had no business in getting bogged down in the issue.

    I find it staggering that people would campaign so passionately to Leave and then recuse themselves from the actual mechanics of making that happen.

    Can you imagine if Scotland had voted to leave the UK in 2014 – would the SNP have disappeared off on camping holidays in the Highlands and told London it was their problem ? Somehow I doubt it.

  • Brendan Heading

    They will be in serious trouble if they do not deliver a British exit from the EU

    What, exactly, does this mean ? Nobody seems to be sure. Farage is on the news this evening accusing Boris of backsliding (I think Farage is right, for what it’s worth). Do we stay in the common market ? Do we keep the human rights stuff ?

  • Brendan Heading

    The end is British departure from the EU and control of UK borders.

    *except the one in Ireland

  • terence patrick hewett

    No. I am saying that if you want people to vote for you; best not to insult them. Seems common sense to me.

  • notimetoshine

    This idea that the decision of the majority (even though we must abide by it) is the correct one, is nonsensical. There can be no denying that this win was for an awful lot of people, an attack on the ‘establishment’, something to teach those out of touch elites a lesson. Even now when leave campaigners are furiously backpedalling on their wholly inaccurate claims regarding immigration and the reapportionment of the fabled 350 million, one still notices a note of ‘haha you lost’, as if gambling with the geopolitical stability and economic well-being of a region is nothing compared to sticking it to the establishment.

    They may have succeeded in sticking it to the man, going against the advice of everyone from the IMF to Stephen hawking like petulant children, but I fear it will be a pyrrhic victory. To rehash an old trope it really is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    I don’t see anything wrong with being scathing at those who use their heart over their head, in act of national teenage rebellion.

  • terence patrick hewett

    Nothing wrong with scathing: just not advisable if you want the scathees to vote for you. And I think it was not the teenagers who were rebelling: but the young were always terrible conformists. They all think the same and dress the same: but that is a function of their age and their raging hormones: although they could do with a shave.

  • Dreary Steeple

    Oh for flip sake why don’t you really tell us what you think instead of pussy footing about.

  • notimetoshine

    Well the scathees might have done well to think rationally horrific as that thought might be. As for the young people during this referendum, I think there was a certain horror amongst millenials especially, that they would be living with the potential consequences of brexit long after the boomers were gone, another in a long list of items boomers have ensured millenials are unlikely to enjoy.

  • john millar

    Probably

  • terence patrick hewett

    Are those irrational and emotional scathees!!! Is there a price on freedom? Because if there is a price on freedom then you don’t want freedom you want something else. Ask 1922.

  • terence patrick hewett

    I believe in the last line of the Lincoln Address: silly of me I know.

  • Chingford Man

    The referendum was about the principle of leaving the EU. It could not address the mechanics of doing so as the Leave side was not a government in waiting with a manifesto that it could implement. Due to the complexity of these mechanics, only a government machine is capable of doing so. We could ask why the UK Government and its civil service totally failed to plan a response to a Yes vote, something that is one cause of the present volatility in the markets.

    The difference between 2016 and Scotland in 2014 is that the independence side was dominated by the SNP that was then leading a majority government.

  • Chingford Man

    I think it’s clear what Out means: not being subject to the EU’s legal order. Everything else flows from that.

  • notimetoshine

    This freedom narrative is something I never understood about the referendum. The way some on the Brexit side carried on you would think the referendum was some battle royale between the forces of good and evil. Suddenly the EU was being blamed for everything that was wrong in the UK and watching interviews with some people on the news this evening for example, I was shocked at how people seriously think that leaving the EU is going to solve many of the structural problems that exist within british society. Some great panacea, to wake those in the establishment up.

  • terence patrick hewett

    Because in the grand abstract terms of the Enlightenment, the legitimacy of government derives from the consent of the governed, and therefore no government should have the right to hand over its authority to some external body which is not democratically accountable to its own people. So when the framers of the EU arranged for the nations of Europe to do exactly that, they were repudiating two centuries of political struggle for the rights and liberties of ordinary citizens and of governance “of the people, by the people and for the people.” That of liberal democracy, hammered out with much pain in the United Kingdom after 1688 and the United States after 1776.

    The European Union does not pretend to have a liberal constitution; perhaps the Lisbon treaty can best be described as an authoritarian federal bureaucracy, seeking almost unlimited powers.

  • notimetoshine

    But the framers of the EU were democratically elected by the people of the various nations. Surely there is something to be said for the vicariously democratic nature of the EU. Also the EU structures are ultimately acceptable to the democratically elected leaders of the member states. So while yes there is an obvious democratic deficit, it can hardly be considered authoritarian in nature.

    As for the EU repudiating two centuries of political struggle, I would remind you that the modern European movement was borne out of the ashes of a second nationalist war that once again destroyed large swathes of the continent on the back of a hatred for liberal democracy. It is a movement as much designed to dampen the fires of patriotism that so often tore Europe apart, as it is an economic system. The lack of internecine nationalist conflict amongst European countries since the end of the second world war can be laid at the door of the European movement, embodied by the EU and its predecessors. Much of the credit for the preservation of democracy in Europe can also be credited to a European movement. Of course it isn’t perfect, but it is a young organisation and it will evolve.

    What disturbs me and many others I should imagine, is this use of ‘sovereignty’ as an analogue for the kind of petty nationalism that has dogged Europe since the middle of the 19th century.

    Aside from anything else, there is also the geopolitical argument. The world is no longer Eurocentric, in the way it had been since the 17th century. We no longer live in the centre of the world. We live in an increasingly multi polar world of huge players. Europe is a place of many small players and it is only its collective intellectual, political, economic and diplomatic strength that will allow it to prosper and preserve the lifestyles and societies to which we have become accustomed.

  • Kevin Breslin

    He can afford to in terms of his career given that he is losing it.

    The DUP are going on like this is a worker’s revolution … I don’t see how they’ve been emancipated in what is clearly a power grab by the elites. A Deluded DUP politician put up a delusional Telegraph article saying it was bigger in European history than the French Revolution!!!

    Hopefully the betrayed Leavers and angry Remainers use the opportunity to make life really hard for the Leave Liars who want to be monarchs not political leaders.

  • Zorin001

    For once we are in agreement on something, the Failure to activate Article 50 leaves us in the worst of both worlds as it is leaving massive uncertainty about the future and severely impacting on the markets.

    We are either going or (and the longer this goes on the more convinced I will be) that elements of the Leave side who were only in it as a political ploy are desperately trying to roll back on a leave vote. Either be honest one way or another, don’t leave the country in limbo.

  • On the fence!

    “The Brexiteers said the farm payments would remain the same.”

    Have you a link to that?

    I was aware of various statements saying that the UK farming industry would continue to be supported, but that pledge was one that seems to have missed me.

  • On the fence!

    Out of interest, all SFP payment details over the last two years are freely available on the net so I’m not sure where you get your information from regarding their removal.

    I (controversially, it would appear!) put the link up yesterday but IT was removed!

  • Reader

    Kevin Breslin: I don’t see how they’ve been emancipated in what is clearly a power grab by the elites.
    The elites were mostly on the other side, weren’t they?

  • Skibo
  • Reader

    Katyusha: it’s just been “we want to leave” and that’s that.
    Here’s a plan (Vote Leave – sort of official):
    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/a_framework_for_taking_back_control_and_establishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june
    And here’s another plan (Leave Alliance – a strange bunch):
    http://www.eureferendum.com/flexcit.aspx
    I’m disappointed that Chingford Man hasn’t found a UKIP plan for you – maybe they didn’t have one?

  • On the fence!

    Yes, I’d like what I asked for, if possible!.

    Priti Patel said government would have “options and choices”.

    “Options and choices” is hardly “farm payments would remain the same” is it????? Although that sort of “reporting” pretty much typified the BBC, both during and now after the referendum as well.

    The other link appears to be for subscribers only.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Since the UK government doesn’t have the money to spend on the NHS, reduce VAT on fuel or tighten up immigration without making cuts elsewhere … you tell me who’s really won?

    The referendum was bought and sold with a false social contract, it was more concerned with the feelings people had reading newspapers than the mechanics of emancipation.

    The Welfare state is the loser here, and it’s not immigrants who are the ones harming it.

  • Kevin Breslin

    It was spin, they’ll remain for the 2 years they remain in the EU.

  • Dreary Steeple

    Sorry for been so naughty, I do congratulate you in taking time to record all the insults, it will be useful to some masters student in 30 years time when they are trying to make sense of this period. Secondly, with lines like that it is no surprise that Lincoln is still considered one of the best presidents the US ever had.

  • Skibo

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/674605/Boris-Johnson-farmers-support-Brexit-David-Cameron-appear-BBC-Countryfile-EU
    From the mouth of Boris.
    I knew everything they had promised was pie in the sky as it will be the Treasury after Brexit that will decide how the money that previously went to the EU will be spent.
    Unfortunately Brexit people were promising it could be spent on this and that “its a no brainer” they said.

  • Skibo

    http://www.cnet.com/news/brexit-leave-campaign-wipes-website-amid-accusations-of-false-promises/

    Oh look Brexit wipes their homepage deleting all their promises so we will only have what others reported. Wonder why.

  • Skibo

    High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2bcfea78-fffb-11e5-99cb-83242733f755.html#ixzz4CsI5E6b5

    Let’s get one thing straight,” said Mr Eustice. “The UK government will continue to give farmers and the environment as much support — or perhaps even more — as they get now. The prime minister has made that clear.”
    In a letter to the Country Land and Business Association (CLA) last week, the prime minister David Cameron said he would “make sure that an agricultural support system would be properly maintained”.
    But he added: “I can obviously not make the same guarantees for future governments.”
    Cameron being truthful, George Eustace stating the government will give the same or perhaps even more.
    Lies and damned lies. many farmers voted on the strength of what was promised.

  • terence patrick hewett

    I have an interest in etymology and I could see that something really unusual was happening here as far as language is concerned so I decided to compile a fairly accurate list of words and then make some sort of analysis: the strands of stupidity, disease, dementia, drunkenness, lack of education, age et al are quite interesting to an etymologist as well as to an anthropologist and is far more revealing of the motives and attitudes of the protagonists than those of their victims: all the more vicious because of the element of social class involved. Snobbery in all of its glorious manifestations is always a subject both fascinating and hilarious: E F Benson would have made a meal of it.

    I have added two more to the list this morning: “pond life” and “thick” !!!!

  • Skibo

    Who will be man enough to stand for leader of the Torys and then snub a referendum? They are in a sticky wicket because the EU will not barter with the UK till Article 50 is actioned. At that stage the EU then hold all the cards and can force through a UK leave in their terms.
    If the EU agreed terms with the UK that were so stringent that they could be rejected by the people in a second referendum in preference for staying in the EU but this would have to happen before Article 50.

  • terence patrick hewett

    When I get a bit more time I will reply but Colm Tóibín in the IT seems to have got it:

    EU must open up after Brexit

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/colm-t%C3%B3ib%C3%ADn-eu-must-open-up-after-brexit-1.2700584

  • Dreary Steeple

    I believe this revolt in particular from the labour heartland in Northern England is in the same league as Wat Tyler when he marched a group of rebels to Smithfield. Millions of words will be written on this period but you have already cut to the chase with ‘then compound the sin by trying to frighten and blackmail them’ that sums it all up for me.

  • Kevin Breslin

    I don’t see the Welfare state being strengthen through Brexit, but I could see tax cuts for the rich.

  • Reader

    Kevin Breslin: I don’t see…
    As my grandma used to say, “you’re squealing before you’re bit”

  • Kevin Breslin

    The Brexit elites and particularly their friends in the right wing media like the Daily Express believe they’ve been persecuted by Brussels, once the UK leaves in say 2019 or 2020, it will become abundantly clear that they have been persecuting themselves all this time and will continue to play the victimhood card til the day they die, no matter how many hugs they are offered.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Everyone has a nervous system, go figure!

  • Brendan Heading

    I think it’s clear what Out means: not being subject to the EU’s legal order. Everything else flows from that.

    I’ve no doubt that you are very clear, but there’s a distinct lack of consensus coming from Leave supporters. Boris is at one end of the (very wide) spectrum, Farage is at the other, and there are plenty of people in between.

  • Brendan Heading

    The referendum was about the principle of leaving the EU. It could not address the mechanics of doing so as the Leave side was not a government in waiting with a manifesto that it could implement.

    It’s a bit of a problem all this, making proposals without any idea about how they’ll work.

    We could ask why the UK Government and its civil service totally failed to plan a response to a Yes vote, something that is one cause of the present volatility in the markets.

    We could equally well ask Leave voters why they voted for an idea without a plan.

  • Chingford Man

    And I could equally reply that you read my above post again. I’m getting tired of explaining “referenda for slow learners” (as Seamus Mallon might say).

  • Reader

    Kevin Breslin: Brexit elites…right wing media…it will become abundantly clear that they have been persecuting themselves all this time…
    And the consequence of this is that the electorate will punish their persecutors. How you reached the opposite conclusion is baffling.
    By the way – you seem to be giving the Remain elites (numerous and varied) a free ride. Are you feeling sympathetic to them just for the moment? They have lost their smokescreen too.

  • John Collins

    One thing I noticed in a short trip through a part of NI was that the REMAIN camp seemed to have ran a very poor campaign. I travelled from Derry to Strabane and next day I travelled from Belleek, via Enniskillen to Omagh and from there to Aughnacloy, a few days before the vote. Now I saw about ten LEAVE posters in the course of my journeys, but I did not see a single Remain poster, of any description, in my entire trip.

  • Brendan Heading

    I did read your post above. The fundamental point of disagreement is that you think that those who supported or advocated Leave had no responsibility either to explain to their supporters that they had no idea how to bring it about and had no plans to build a coalition to actually implement it.

    This is related to the other point of disagreement, which is the whole idea of having referendums within a parliamentary democracy on broad ideas, especially with no plans to back them. The SNP produced a huge document outlining what they’d do if they won their referendum; you guys produced nothing.

  • Chingford Man

    I’m going to explain this for one last time because I’m tired of repeating the same point to someone who, for whatever reason, won’t grasp the point. One course is to invoke Article 50 right now, leave in 2018, trade with the EU on WTO conditions and make any supplementary deals where other conditions would be preferable to the WTO ones. Another is to negotiate EEA Plus. A third would be to rejoin EFTA, from which an invitation has already been extended. All of these matters are for the Government to consider and Leave was not a government-in-waiting with a manifesto to be implemented on winning.

    As for the SNP, it is a nationalist party that has been dreaming about independence for many years and which was the dominating force of the Scottish Yes side. If Scotland had left the UK, it wold have been the SNP in government leading the negotiations. It is not comparable to the Leave side.

  • Brendan Heading

    I grasp your point alright. The problem is that it doesn’t grasp mine.

    Isn’t voting for an idea without a government in waiting or at least some sort of consensus kind of a bad idea ? I know you’ll say “no”. The problem is, having voted Leave, you have declared victory even though you have no idea what is going to happen next (you have been able to boil it down to three possibilities – which I’d agree with, noting that some are more likely than others); you don’t even know you are going to get an outcome you are satisfied with. It sounds like you hope that Gove will win the Tory leadership; maybe he will, but as things stand he is the outside chance.

    We’ll see who the slow learners are soon enough ..