PSNI: “The time for posturing on this issue… is now passed.”

After two nights of violence on the streets of north Belfast, during which over 60 officers were injured, 6 baton rounds fired, and 8 arrests made, the PSNI Assistant Chief Constable Will Kerr has issued a challenge to politicians.  From the Irish Times report

Police said the trouble was started by loyalists and that nationalists were also involved.

Mr Kerr acknowledged that the trouble has raised concerns about whether a massive Orange Order parade on September 29th will pass off peacefully and about further trouble in the run-up to the parade.

The 6-mile parade from Belfast City Hall to Stormont commemorates the centenary of the signing of the anti-Home Rule Ulster Covenant. It will feature more than 20,000 Orangemen, 100 bands and tens of thousands of spectators.

Mr Kerr said Northern Ireland could not afford to wait for an “11th hour” solution on September 29th. He said politicians from both sides must stop their “posturing” and “sort it out and sort it out now”. [added emphasis]

“We are deeply worried about the lead up to Saturday September 29th,” said Mr Kerr. “You can’t sustain the levels of violence that we had over the past two nights and not worry about somebody getting killed.”

Here’s a quote from ACC Will Kerr in the UTV report

The time for posturing on this issue, and in relation to the issue of the covenant’s centenary parade on the 29th September, is now passed.

We need an urgent resolution to this issue or there is a very real possibility that somebody will get killed over the course of the next few days and weeks.

[Good luck with that... - Ed]  Indeed.

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  • Mister_Joe

    All true but Ii don’t know if the FM&DFM are in need of hearing aids.

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/ fitzjameshorse1745

    The PSNI are quite right.
    There is a lot of posturing going on…..unfortunately the PSNI are also posturing.
    An organised riot but they wont tell us who organised it.

  • tacapall

    Where is the posturing coming from, the clergy at St Patricks church and its parishioners, who are the residents, have publicly stated they have no wishes for the parade or future parades to be rerouted, they just want bands and the loyal orders to treat their place of worship with respect when passing by. Is that too much to ask of the loyal orders and bands that accompany them.

  • Alias

    “Is that too much to ask of the loyal orders and bands that accompany them.”

    It’s not too much to ask but it is too much to demand. Nobody has the right to demand that other people should demonstrate respect for a particular religion that they may not respect just because the person making the demand has an emotional bias. If someone objects to scientology, for example, then it is appropriate to freely express that objection and inappropriate for the state to censor it and to enforce public demonstrations of respect that are not actually held. So, you can certainly ask others to voluntary respect your religious beliefs (if pseudo-Catholics can be said to actually hold them) but you can’t demand that they do so and still stay on the right side of freedom of expression.

    Incidentally, do NI’s political class not have any sense of collective shame? It would be highly embarrassing to any other society if the police called on the political class to devise political solutions in such a desperate manner…

  • tacapall

    “Nobody has the right to demand that other people should demonstrate respect for a particular religion that they may not respect”

    Obviously not everyone agrees with you Alias.

    “In Europe, citizens are covered by the European Convention on Human Rights which states: “Everyone has the right to freedom of expression.”

    But it adds that governments can restrict free speech, among other reasons, in the interests of national security, to preserve public safety and for the prevention of disorder or crime.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8097979.stm

  • Dec

    ‘Nobody has the right to demand that other people should demonstrate respect for a particular religion that they may not respect’

    Well, the Parades Commission do. It’s about time legislation was passed that made the organizers of all parades pay a surety which they will forfeit if the Commissions rulings are breached.

  • Alias

    Taca, what the PC is attempting to do is impose a form of kissing the Piscatory Ring. Catholics kiss the Pope’s ring to show their respect for their religion (which is fair enough between consenting adults if they’re into that sort of thing). A form of this demonstration of respect for papal property is now to be imposed on Protestants.

    Imposing a form of political expression and the content of it is a not the same thing as censoring the right to freedom of political expression. It is a far worse transgression by the state in that the state is instructing its citizens to hold particular beliefs about religious organisations and to express these beliefs to the satisfaction of the state, irrespective of whether or not they actually hold them.

  • Alias

    To make that point about the imposition by the state of a form of political expression and its content on its citizens a little clearer:

    “…the real issue is the PC’s freedom of expression transgression of imposing the condition that marchers must actively express political views that demonstrate their support for religious organisations – or, at any rate, for their holdings – as a condition of being permitted by the state to exercise their right to freedom of assembly. They must express these political views, whether or not they actually hold them, by proceeding in silence along the public roads that these buildings are located on. This reverential silence thereby demonstrates to the state that they respect that which the state demands that they should respect.”

  • andnowwhat

    Fjh

    Check that Mallie link I put up. Kerr says it was definitely not the UVF. He doesn’t know who orchestrated the riot but he knows it wasn’t the UVF.

    Now, he did concede that individual members may have been involved but it was not officially sanctioned. Meanwhile, Barney Rowan told Nolan that others, from various sources, told him otherwise. The rusty wheels of the peace train grind ever slowly on

  • tacapall

    “…the real issue is the PC’s freedom of expression transgression of imposing the condition that marchers must actively express political views that demonstrate their support for religious organisations – or, at any rate, for their holdings”

    Not really Alias more respecting the religious views and places of worship of others, freedom of speech and freedom of expression are two different things the latter one being open to widely different definitions but the logical definition being having the right but without deliberately trying to cause offense that would very likely lead to public disorder.

  • andnowwhat

    No one hate right to demand respect for a religion?

    Someone needs to inform the Orange Order ASAP!

  • The Lodger

    “Where is the posturing coming from, the clergy at St Patricks church and its parishioners, who are the residents, have publicly stated they have no wishes for the parade or future parades to be rerouted, they just want bands and the loyal orders to treat their place of worship with respect when passing by. Is that too much to ask of the loyal orders and bands that accompany them.”

    Tapacall,

    Was it too much to ask the republican bands and the mob following them on Sunday to treat the Clifton St Orange hall and its inhabitents with respect?

  • Dec

    Lodger

    As far as I’m aware the band stopped playing music as it passed the hall and the Indian centre. (Though we all know who was occupying the Orange Hall at the time). Are you reduced to making stuff up now?

  • The Lodger

    “As far as I’m aware the band stopped playing music as it passed the hall and the Indian centre.”

    Dec,

    But their followers attacked the people in the orange hall. Republicans have consistently blamed the OO for the actions of people who follow their parades, so they can ahrdly attempt to wash their hands of that mob can they? What does it matter who was occupying the orange hall? We are talking about a parade of people who support republican terror gangs here. They are hardly in a position to complain about the identities of people watching their parade.

  • http://www.ur2die4.com/ amanfromMars

    All true but Ii don’t know if the FM&DFM are in need of hearing aids. … Mister_Joe
    4 September 2012 at 3:54 pm

    I have know idea about the possibility of them suffering deafness, Mister_Joe, but it is certainly true that they are need of leading intelligence supply, Mister_Joe. That has always been what they are lacking and the obvious deficiency renders them as impotent cuckolds in offices of public command and control/politically correct and innovative administration, with the evidence of the current riotous shenanigans, proof positive of the posit.

    Maybe Theresa Villiers, who nobody yet has mentioned is not only obviously smart but also an attractive looking divorcee, has something novel to offer the inmates of the Stormont Asylum and Legislative Assembly.

    And please, let’s not go down the obvious route of some lame brain sharing their view that such a remark is sexist whenever it just states a clear subjective fact and objective truth.

    That appears to be the problem with far too many in Northern Ireland ….. You can’t handle the truth? And what a horror vision, to imagine Peter and Marty before the mirror, practising a dissimilar pontificating gusto, thinking they are a Colonel Jessep type hero figure rather than realising they are just as appointed figurines.

    They have certainly been deafly silent of late, and with nothing of note to say and be recorded on the matter must we conclude that they have nothing of note to say and be recorded on the matter …… which will not surprise many, to be sure, to be sure.

  • Zig70

    I’ll be interested to see if the police bring those organising the riots on facebook and other media are brought before the courts.

  • wild turkey

    with respect to the religous and political aspects of this controversy, i defer to the theologically informed and the politically astute who comment with humility and empathy. i also defer to anyone who has a basic understanding of the hatfields and mccoys.

    from the run of this thread, unforntunately such don’t exist.

    so fuck deference, eh? cue, take a bow alias.

    practical impacts and logistics guys?

    i live in north belfast and this shit is causing real, on the ground problems, for me and my children. carlisle circus, emphasis on circus, is a major junction in north belfast. the shit that is going down restricts movementand access both of those of who want to get to other parts of the city, and those from other parts who may wish to visit to us

    at this stage of the game we really don’t need the bluebottle buzz of low flying helicopters, sirens etc etc etc,

    so for a peaceful life, i have written my president, currently in party convention, to consider sending over a few drone crafts that are designed to zap the taliban.

    because what we are now again and tediously confronting now. is the homegrown good ole boy taliban. secure in their self-righteous, sanctimony and bronze age belief and practices. sorry, i do not the modern adaptation of monitoring cameras and pillowcases with eyeholes. how progressive.

    at present, 29 september is shaping up to be the inevitable shitstorm of political handjobbery and congenital bedwetting,

    it is well past time for these fuckers to wise up and grow up or be wrestled to the mat once, and for all.

    mahalo

  • aquifer

    We need to put names and addresses to faces.

    Then when the town is wrecked we have people to jail.

    Lets just pay for the information.

    North Belfast needs the dough.

  • iluvni

    3 nights in a row disturbing the vulnerable elderly in the nursing home.
    Shame on them all.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Alias,

    Are you concluding that what the Parades want freedom to express is disrespect for Catholics?

    Frankly people don’t have the right to parade past a church a few times over the summer and preach hatred of it. Thats harassment.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    The PSNI are talking to the bigger picture.

    Perhaps we could do the same…

  • Mister_Joe

    Yes,

    Forgive us our sins,
    as we forgive those who sin against us.

    Just don’t cross God himself.

  • Alias

    “Not really Alias more respecting the religious views and places of worship of others, freedom of speech and freedom of expression are two different things the latter one being open to widely different definitions but the logical definition being having the right but without deliberately trying to cause offense that would very likely lead to public disorder.” – Taca

    Freedom of speech/expression are used interchangeably with no difference between them. Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that:

    “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.”

    You cannot circumscribe another person’s right to free expression on the grounds that you find that person’s particular expression offensive. You may well find it offensive that others do not show what you consider to be due respect to your particular brand of sky-daddy worship but that is your problem, not the other person’s. He/she is perfectly entitled to hold his own view and to express it.

    The international courts are very clear on this. The European Court of Human Rights has stated in Handyside v. United Kingdom that:

    “Freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of [a democratic] society, one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man … it is applicable not only to ‘information’ or ‘ideas’ that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population. Such are the demands of pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness without which there is no ‘democratic society’.”

    This backwardness of seeking to censor free political expression should be resisted where it is outside of the scope of the limitations imposed on it in Article 19(3) of the ICCPR:

    “It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:
    (a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
    (b) For the protection of national security or of public order, or of public health or morals.”

    Clearly this condition for restricting free political expression is not met by State in seeking to impose silence on marchers proceeding past holdings belonging to sky-daddy merchants.

    This failure to meet the condition leads to another straw man argument:

    “Frankly people don’t have the right to parade past a church a few times over the summer and preach hatred of it. Thats harassment.” – Lionel Hutz

    Here we have an attempt made to bogusly present a refusal to march in silence past sky-daddy holdings as being an act of incitement to hatred. It should be noted, of course, that speaking on the phone when walking past these buildings or blowing a car horn or making other ‘disrespectful’ noise would also be an incitement to hatred by this line of reasoning.

    As I’ve pointed out, it is not simply a case of the State seeking to censor a citizen’s human right to freedom of speech/expression: the State is seeking to impose its own form of political expression (the Christian religious cultural practice of silence) on its citizens and the content of that political expression (to politically demonstrate to the State that the citizen honours those sky-daddy holdings that the State demands that they must honour).

    It is totally inappropriate for the State to behave in that way.

  • Alias

    To get back onto the topic:

    It’s fairly obvious that the hacks up at Stormont should convene an emergency meeting wherein they can attempt to use their political skills (well, Will Kerr thinks they have them) to do what they were elected to do, i.e. promote the common good. If the police are warning that their is a risk of someone being killed due to a failure of political action then it is utterly outrageous for the hacks to do nothing to prevent it.

  • Alias

    Here’s a blast from the recent past: “Violence fills a political vacuum.”

  • Mister_Joe

    Alias,

    But you have forgotten about the three monkeys.

  • sectarianheadcount

    A Solemn Covenant march. What a great idea. Let’s celebrate the ‘by all means necessary’ proclamation of 1912. The ultimate declaration of mass terrorism.

  • Alias

    “But you have forgotten about the three monkeys.”

    My apologies to Peter, Marty, and David.

  • Mick Fealty

    Thanks for Handyside v United Kingdom alias, that speaks to the core of the problem… Ie that by orchestrating violence you can expect to have your neighbours right to public expression curtailed…

    Sectarianheadcount, presumably you think celebrating the Rising (either of them) was similarly worthy of censure since it gave rise to over decade of war, civil war and strife?

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    sectarianheadcount The blackmail that was the 1912 ‘covenan/ttreachery’ is still in place a century on, or if it weren’t, do we seriously think the British would still be here now but for the implied threat of a civil war. As far as I know the trouble of the last 3 nights doesn’t rate a mention on the mainland media at all. So much for British as Finchley. Poor old Arlene Foster must be tearing her hair out at the likely cost in investment in the sick counties after all her clingy and desperate campaign to bring tourists and foreign firms to her ‘wee country’. After the ultimatum by the PC t the Orangemen to turn up on time at Ardoyne on the twalfth, that slogan ‘our time, our place’ should be adopted by the Parades Commision.

  • Mick Fealty

    Your wrong there Dan… It did feature…

  • tacapall

    “Thanks for Handyside v United Kingdom alias, that speaks to the core of the problem… Ie that by orchestrating violence you can expect to have your neighbours right to public expression curtailed”

    Obviously freedom of expression is a right Mick but within the parameters of decency and without deliberately intending offense.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8440408.stm

    Alan Johnson the Home Secretary ‘will back’ Wootton Bassett Muslim march ban

    Islam4UK says it wants to parade empty coffins through the town to draw attention to Afghan war casualties.

    Mr Johnson said: “The idea that anyone would stage this kind of demonstration in Wootton Bassett fills me with revulsion.

    “I find it particularly offensive that the town, which has acted in such a moving and dignified way in paying tribute to our troops who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country, should be targeted in this manner.”

    He added: “If the Wiltshire Police and local authority feel that a procession of this kind has the potential to cause public disorder and seek my consent to a banning order, then I would have no hesitation in supporting that request.”

    Islam4UK, which has been linked to the radical al-Muhajiroun movement, said the town was chosen to create maximum publicity.

    Spokesman Anjem Choudary said: “We are having a procession, it’s in Wootton Bassett but it’s not about the people there and it’s not against them personally – rather it’s to highlight the real cost of war in Afghanistan.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    It must have been brief then, Mick. Usually they just have pictures with the newsreader talking over them when dealing with us here, rather than sending a reporter over.

  • Mick Fealty

    Well yeah. True. That’s because it’s not a big story. And the politics of it are difficult and complex for a journalist to explain to outsiders.

  • salgado

    The Guardian have it located fairly prominently on the front page of their website, and as one of the top stories in their UK News section.

    It is hidden away on the Telegraph and Independent, but as Mick says it’s not that big a story.

  • http://redfellow.blogspot.com Malcolm Redfellow

    Has everyone noted the leading article in today’s [London] Independent?

    Change of employment prospects. Attitudes to education. Pretty standard stuff, and then:

    Politics may have delivered a peace in which the economy, investment and tourism have been normalised, but there has been no big peace dividend in terms of new jobs for either working-class community. Marches and parades – and disputes about them – are the tribal badges which attach to this divide. And where politics has absolutely failed is in attempts to replace the much-criticised Parades Commission which places conditions on republican and loyalist marches. Politicians on both sides came up with an alternative in 2010 but it was shelved after opposition from the Orange Order. The politicians gave up too easily, and these riots are the price.

    Not original. No great fresh thinking. Just that some notice, even this side of the narrow waters, is being taken.

  • Barnshee

    SF chose to make opposition to Prod parades a part of their strategy (aided and abetted by the AFM stupid prods).

    Perfidious Albion craftily shafted them into government with the Dupers and retreated to sidelines. They and the Dupers are now in charge– I don`t believe that the penny has fully dropped yet.

    Bereft of any coherent political strategy (Marx and Co abandoned as inconvenient) and events south of the border SF probably wish it would all go away they are however left looking over their shoulder at the dissidents .

    With salaries (and pensions for some looming) to protect SF are grateful to the AFM prods for their assistance in keeping the pot boiling-frankly that and bitching about road signs is all they have got.

    Its also of enormous help in deflecting attention from the great white elephant on the hill

  • andnowwhat
  • Barnshee

    “but there has been no big peace dividend in terms of new jobs for either working-class community”

    And there will no such dividend– NI population levels have continued to increase beyond that which is self sustainable.. The subvention from Westminster and the associated “welfare state” both created and now currently holds up the house of cards. How will the DUP and SF manage as the subvention continues to fall?

  • Reader

    The Independent: And where politics has absolutely failed is in attempts to replace the much-criticised Parades Commission which places conditions on republican and loyalist marches. Politicians on both sides came up with an alternative in 2010 but it was shelved after opposition from the Orange Order. The politicians gave up too easily, and these riots are the price.
    Malcolm was quite right to label the above as :”Not original. No great fresh thinking.” – the SF/DUP proposal was far worse than the PC solution, it would have left the decisions as the outcome of horse trading between tribal champions who are starting to struggle to keep up with the tribes.
    The OO, who were not the only opponents of the party proposals, accidentally made the right decision then, but are now busy screwing up the best opportunity they could have ever have expected.

  • DoppiaVu

    ok so back on topic (again), it appears that progress is being made albeit at a glacial pace…

    http://www.u.tv/News/NI-leaders-in-emergency-parade-talks/c282fb65-f2c2-4cde-8216-01c62d2607a0

  • sectarianheadcount

    Mick – The Solemn Covenant (and yes, the Rising, I would readily concede – the IRB could hardly fail to learn how effective the threat/use of force was proving in the North) legitimised the use of armed struggle on the island. Ludicrously public money is being used to celebrate events enshrining ad glorifying the threat of violence and an entire community is being mobilised in a demonstration of support of such on 29 September. And we wonder why some groups out there are still wedded to violence?

  • HeinzGuderian

    nat/reps have been ‘legitimising’ the use of ‘armed struggle on ‘the island’ for fecking Centuries !!

    Why does every topic on Northern Ireland have to descend into hundreds of years of history,that is as relevant today as the oo are ?
    What our nat/rep chums don’t seem to realise is,they are making a rod for their own backs come 2016.

    Lest we forget,the chaps on this HJM march are unapologetic supporters of ‘dissident republicans’. ( you know,the ‘new baddies’)
    Why this ‘parade’ was allowed to even take place is beyond me.

    It’s akin to the Immortal Arab Martyrs of 9/11 NY Branch,being allowed to march past the remains of the WTC……..

    Mick hit the nail squarely on the head. Three years of continuous rioting in ardoyne,and the outcome is more restrictions on the lol. It ain’t rocket science.

    Now,as I said on the 11th of July,I’m no supporter of any lol. haven’t got a clue what they are ‘demonstrating’ about in this day and age,BUT………if you had absolutely no interest in the Twelfth parades,why go to watch/video them ?
    I never saw a band from dawn to dusk. Why ? Because I exercised my right not to go and watch any.

    ‘simples’ ;-)

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Lionel Hutz [12.40]
    You see, the OO claims that all they want is for the PC to deal fairly in their rulings while in reality, what they and the DUP wants on their behalf is for the PC to be got rid of, and then replaced with nothing as in the good old days when the SS RUC forced through their hate parades. That won’t happen and now even more scrutiny will be directed at them after the last ten days activities. The published apology by the RBI contains a puzzling claim that thedisregarded thePC ruling not to pass the church again, was directed not at the parish of St Patrick’s but at the PC. As if they couldbn’t have done this any other way than repeating the insult from the 12th. Robinson’s fine speeches are set at naught as Liam Clarke has pointed out, when PR’s colleagues are not willing to honour the cheques the FM has taken such trouble to write. So it’s all froth counting for nothing.

  • Moderate Unionist

    HG,

    “Mick hit the nail squarely on the head. Three years of continuous rioting in ardoyne,and the outcome is more restrictions on the lol. It ain’t rocket science.”

    The idea being pedalled that the more violence you use the better the result is undermined by the evidence of Drumcree where the PC ha not given into orchestrated violence resulting in a number of deaths. Violence may attract attention to the issue but it has not delivered long term results – and that is becuase the PC has done an outstanding job in extemely difficult circumstances and should be praised not attacked by those trying to defend sectarian behaviour.

    It would be very interesting viewing if the relative merits of the OO and the PC were debated in Westninster – and that would be some very embarassing viewing for the those in the PUL who have failed the beacb-boys-test-for-sectarianism so miserably.

  • The Lodger

    “The idea being pedalled that the more violence you use the better the result is undermined by the evidence of Drumcree where the PC ha not given into orchestrated violence resulting in a number of deaths.”

    That is a fairly nonsensical interpretation of events at Drumcree. When loyalists threatened and produced violence at Drumcree the march was allowed to proceed. When loyalists walked away from Drumcree following the Quinn murders the only threat of violence was and continues to be from republicans. Initially this was the |Provos, but the individuals involved have now switched their allegiences to RIRA. The march has not proceeded since.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    I do believe though that an application is made to march every week and this keeps a fair amount of moolah in the pockets of the Parades Commissioners, meeting to say “No.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    I should think that they are on fixed incomes. Very generous ones no doubt.

  • http://www.ur2die4.com/ amanfromMars

    Well yeah. True. That’s because it’s not a big story. And the politics of it are difficult and complex for a journalist to explain to outsiders. …. Mick Fealty 5 September 2012 at 9:58 am

    Surely, Mick, the politics of it are simply explained by any competent journalist to both outsiders and insiders, as being blighted and slighted by self-serving unimaginative bigots desperately trying to preserve a primitive and/or traditional past in a post modern novel and high virtual technology environment.

    And apparently, some folk in the asylum on the hill are petrified to be seen mixing socially with each other and would fear for their lives should they be known to fraternise.*

    And they would have one and all think that they have things under control, and they wield a politically correct power? Oh please, you cannot be serious.

    I was going to write that as the politics here being blighted and slighted by self-serving unimaginative bigots with nothing better to do than trying to preserve a primitive and/or traditional past in a post modern novel and high virtual technology environment, but virtually anything other than that done would be practically better whenever it delivers a completely different shared future …… and that incidentally is most easily done with expert control of IT and Media with Simple Presentations of Future Programs and Imaginative Projects unburdened of Legacy Millstones and Bloody Anchors.

    A little something extra ESPecial Theresa is working on exploring and sharing?

    * And is that true …. and acceptable in a modern society where all are supposedly born equal …… but which later conspires to deliver to a few, almost everything, leaving the rest with nothing but dreams to be crushed and denied them …. which appears to be the default setting in far too many a nation and corrupt administration, and is an APT recipe for popular revolution and supported sedition, for who in their right mind would think it right and not wrong, whenever it is so clearly a self-destructive madness.

  • andnowwhat

    Fair play to Alisdair Mc Donnelll for calling Nelson Mc Causland to be censured under the ministerial codes 1.4 and 1.5 ie. refusing to uphold the law

  • BluesJazz

    Well, SF have got their way and the terror shrine is to be built. With the DUP desperately trying to sugar coat their climbdown with all sorts of excuses. Might be the reason SF are letting the parading issue go. They,ve got Bobby’s monument with DUP acquiesence. Conflict Tranformation Centre my arse.