Sammy Wilson’s #dupconf routine – complete with doubtful gags about SF’s Long Creche

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Sammy Wilson’s speech was billed as ‘finance’, but was in reality his usual mid-afternoon comic turn to pick up the spirits of the delegates who were still in the hall.

You can hear the full 20 minute routine over on Audioboo (mp3 download).

In one section about 5 minutes in, he was commenting on the recent Sinn Fein Ard Fheis in Belfast’s Waterfront Hall. He referred to the crèche – labelled by Sinn Fein (rather than Sammy) as ‘Long Crèche’ – and tastelessly suggested: (mp3 download)

Sammy Wilson”s tasteless joke about “Long Creche” at SF”s Ard Fheis (mp3)

The babies were in cages, wrapped in blankets. They wouldn’t eat their dinner either – and you want to see what they did with the nappies.

Can you imagine, Ah wee Seamus’ dad would’ve been proud of him, 15 months, he’s mastered a dirty protest already.

Tasteless. And not in the spirit of the party leader’s speech.

Update – BBC Radio Ulster’s Talkback picked up on Sammy’s comments at lunchtime (6 min 35 secs in) …

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  • Chris Donnelly

    Alan
    Actually rather consistent with the party’s overall message, save for elements of Peter’s speech which cynically employed Shared Future vocabulary as a mask for the party’s real views. And even then, the cutting personall comments about Nolan have overshadowed that PR exercise.

  • Cynic2

    Chris

    Great to see you back again and so avidly following every word that trips from the mouths of the DUP.

    It is a shame you have all been so preoccupied. There has been a really interesting thread at

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/11/23/the-smoking-gun/comment-page-1/#comments

    but none of the more erudite SF regulars here have been posting on it – just in case you missed it because you were all so busy with the DUPers and wanted an opportunity to ‘set the record staright’ with the official Party line

  • Nunoftheabove

    Hands up those for whom these comments reveal anything they didn’t already know or surmise about Sammy Wilson ?

  • Cynic2

    ” cynically employed Shared Future vocabulary as a mask for the party’s real views.”

    …takes one ………?

  • Mick Fealty

    Paul,

    Man? Ball please!

  • michael-mcivor

    Sammy with his suit on- does he still not know that people ars smiling at him-not what he says-

    Cynic2- you not see my comments on that post- you followed thatcher who give in to the Provos-

  • fordprefect

    I wonder if Sammy ever made any jokes about himself being on the front of the Sunday World starkers? Wilson is about as funny as an ex-economics teacher being made micro-minister for finance in the Stormont Assem…. Oh, hold on.

  • Republic of Connaught

    I always thought there was something incredibly ridiculous about Sammy Wilson. Like he’s a spoof of a real politician.

    That he is finance minister in the north says a lot about the county council nature of Stormont.

  • Reader

    Alan: Tasteless. And not in the spirit of the party leader’s speech.
    To be fair, “Long Creche” was a Shinner joke, and the extension to mentioning the dirty protest was an obvious one. It may even have occurred to a few of the more reflective republicans at the time.
    And annoying though it may seem to republicans, the dirty-protest was always a sick joke to unionists. If republicans wanted to impress us, they should have tried something a bit more dignified.

  • Turgon

    Reader,
    I agree entirely. I could never get my head round why republicans thought people would be impressed by prisoners smearing their excrement over the walls of the room they were in. It smacks more of self contempt to denigrate oneself to a sub bestial level rather than committment to a cause.

  • sonofstrongbow

    If the comments from the Waldorf and Statler clones in the Shinner circle are anything to go by Sammy hit his audience right where he intended to.

  • Nunoftheabove

    sonofstrongbow

    So by implication you feel that at least sections of the audience are as witless, cheap, crass and vulgar as some of Mr Wilson’s comments are ?

  • Reader

    michael-mcivor: thatcher who give in to the Provos
    I fear you missed the point of the original long and detailed post, which pointed out that several hunger strikers died even after “thatcher who give in to the Provos”, and speculated as to why that happened. Cynic’s suspicion seems to be that Chris, fordprefect and RoC couldn’t have pretended to miss that point.
    Irrelevant anyway – there’s no obligation on anyone to engage.

  • Reader

    On reflection though, it was unhelpful for Sammy to pander to the worst elements of his audience by using the name “Seamus”.

  • iluvni

    When I listen to that comedy turn from Captain Mainwaring, sorry, Sammy Wilson, I despair. [edited moderator]

    The real joke about Wilson is how he continues to short change the electorate with his mountain of fulltime jobs. A voting record of 143 votes out of 402, 35.6%, in the Commons demonstrates that never mind do all 3 to a high standard, he isnt even doing one of them well.

  • Cynic2

    “there’s no obligation on anyone to engage”

    ….true ….but what they refuse to even engage on can be very illuminating and it seems strange that several individuals who are normally all strong supporters, leap to SFs defence on every issue and are rigidly ‘on message’ all chose not to engage on the same issue at the same time

    I have to ask them, are they working in co-ordination? If so how is that managed?

  • Dina Shea

    @ Reader You said “If republicans wanted to impress us, they should have tried something a bit more dignified.”

    Like marching peacefully for civil rights and getting machine gunned down by the British Army real dignified-like? Like that?

  • dennis the menace

    ike marching peacefully for civil rights and getting machine gunned down by the British Army real dignified-like? Like that?….

    oh dear, lets remember the men in the maze were criminals, terrorists who should have been allowed to die in their excrement

  • dennis the menace

    its digusting for provo supporters to talk of civil rights given the number of lives they took both protestant and catholics.

  • Dina Shea

    (sigh) Sounds like the British are ramping up (yet) another revisionist history campaign. So boring. Oiche Mhaith.

  • ayeYerMa

    Alan in Belfast, this is not incompatible with the party leader’s speech at all. Reaching across the religious divide has absolutely nothing to do with abandoning any sheer an absolute disgust at terrorists and disagreeing with Irish Republican ideals. A point that many other commentators can’t get through their thick skulls, and a fallacy that you seem to be promoting once more.

    What is completely tasteless is the “long creche” thing from Sinn Fein in the first place. Burdening the image of the innocence of a new-born, with the disgusting guilt and shame of the vile excuses for human beings who not only thought it ok to take part in a murder campaign, but also thought that they could blackmail society by taking their own lives. I also find it tasteless that in your reports that you took the “long creche” thing so light-heartedly at the time of the SF conference.

  • Reader

    Dina Shea: Like marching peacefully for civil rights and getting machine gunned down by the British Army real dignified-like? Like that?
    The British never fired on a peaceful march. The main Civil Rights demands were met in legislation in 1968, and the Provos were not fighting for civil rights anyway – their essential demand was for a United Ireland (with Socialism tacked on as the first optional extra). History has shown that they were therefore wasting their time, and a few thousand lives.
    But, out of the whole list, I am most impressed that you implied that the Provos were fighting for civil rights, and then accused *someone else* of revisionism.

  • vanhelsing

    Ironic that SF are complaining about ‘long creche’ when it originated from them. Didn’t take long for some standard whataboutery from dina shea.

    My favourite so far is actually from said commentator accusing the British of a revisionist campaign!! Perhaps you should take to the stage with your routine:)

    We live in a space where most reasonable commentators would agree that is SF who are attempting to revise ‘the conflict’ portraying the ‘liberating freedom fighters’ of the IRA like the ANC.

    Oh and finally can we stick to the thread, I’ve had to reply to ridiculous comments rather than AIBs original post!!

  • Chris Donnelly

    ….true ….but what they refuse to even engage on can be very illuminating and it seems strange that several individuals who are normally all strong supporters, leap to SFs defence on every issue and are rigidly ‘on message’ all chose not to engage on the same issue at the same time

    I have to ask them, are they working in co-ordination? If so how is that managed?

    Cynic
    Yes, Cynic, it’s all a conspiracy, and we’re all coming for you!

    I honestly know nothing of what clearly is vexing you, but if it has you this wound up, then I’ll take some satisfaction out of that. ;>

  • http://alaninbelfast.blogspot.com Alan in Belfast

    The serious question would be – when is it ever appropriate to make jokes about politically contentious deaths? Mocking the living – eg, Sammy’s caricature of Caitríona Ruane seems run of the mill for politics – but comparing babies with hunger strikers is in a different league.

    Some quotes from Peter Robinson’s speech:

    The DUP’s ambition will be the laughter of all our children, playing and living together, with a future that doesn’t see them having to leave our shores, but wanting to live here, in Northern Ireland, within the United Kingdom …

    If I read the mood of our people correctly, we all now realise, as we have never realised it before, we are interdependent. If we are to move forward, we must move forward together …

    We need to build one, united, shared and peaceful society. I tell you now is the moment. Miss it and we may miss it for ever. Miss it and we may drift and stray. We have the prospect of making a difference that previous generations never had or never took – a chance that future generations may never get or never grab. I tell you now is the moment.

    We want to see respect given to our varied and colourful traditions. We want people to be able to express their culture with tolerance and respect, mindful of those who don’t share those values. And we want people who don’t share those values to show tolerance and respect to those who do.

  • Dec

    ‘I could never get my head round why republicans thought people would be impressed by prisoners smearing their excrement over the walls of the room they were in. It smacks more of self contempt to denigrate oneself to a sub bestial level rather than committment to a cause.’

    Turgon

    Yet you can get your head around the idea of a celestial knob-twiddler?

  • Turgon

    Dec,
    Ah yes the Bobby Sands as some sort of messiah: yes republicans are indeed deluded.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Turgon

    ‘I could never get my head round why republicans thought people would be impressed by prisoners smearing their excrement over the walls of the room they were in.’

    Then you really ought to read, or perhaps just listen, more. You should begin by realising that the dirty protest did not come about because republicans wanted to ‘impress’ anyone. You are beginning from a false understanding of what was going on.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Turgon,

    Yes it’s not that difficult to grasp. You can’t fault the boys for wanting to make the place a little more like home; and make an idealogical point at the same time. Toilet tissue was of course brought to these shores by the Saxon invaders.

    What have the British ever done for us………..

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Strongbow Óg

    Nope. Try again.

  • Decimus

    You should begin by realising that the dirty protest did not come about because republicans wanted to ‘impress’ anyone.

    Billy,

    It came about because the prisoners wanted to pretend that they were POWs a la ‘Wooden Horse’, but the evil Brits wouldn’t play ball. The prisoners then foolishly thought that they could gain sympathy, from anyone outside their own gene pool, by wiping their own shit all over the place. In fact by doing so they merely managed to make themselves look even worse than they had already managed to achieve by their equally disgusting terrorist campaign.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Ok Billy so I didn’t reference the strategic mission statement: “who here will object if, with a turd in this hand and an armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?”

    Happier now?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Decimus

    ‘It came about because the prisoners wanted to pretend that they were POWs a la ‘Wooden Horse’, but the evil Brits wouldn’t play ball.’

    Rather ideologically put, but substantially accurate.

    ‘The prisoners then foolishly thought that they could gain sympathy, from anyone outside their own gene pool, by wiping their own shit all over the place.’

    False. You don’t actually know why they smeared their bodily fluids on the wall, do you? You think it was some sort of nihilistic performance art, don’t you?

    ‘In fact by doing so they merely managed to make themselves look even worse than they had already managed to achieve…’

    If they had been doing it for the reasons you believe, then your reaction would be quite correct. However, they were not doing it for the reasons your believe. You don’t know why they were doing it, and your understanding of their motivation is false.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Strongbow Óg

    I’m quite serene, thankyou. I’m just pointing out that your understanding is false, and based on propaganda rather than facts.

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    Actually, the Norman’s actually smeared their own excretment on their castles which were otherwise white washed.

    They also displayed containers of their exctrement at the doors of their castle.

    “Toilet tissue was of course brought to these shores by the Saxon invaders.”

    The irony of that one was that themediveal Gaelic lords had a poor opinion of English standards of cleaniness given that it was the Gaelic custom to bath daily and the English didnt.

    They also found the custom of using a rag to blow your nose and then putting it back up your sleeve to be disgusting.

  • Decimus

    If they had been doing it for the reasons you believe, then your reaction would be quite correct. However, they were not doing it for the reasons your believe. You don’t know why they were doing it, and your understanding of their motivation is false.

    Billy,

    So what were these reasons that turned the act of rooting around in your own shit into a laudable enterprise?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Just a quick show of hands; anyone strongly unsympathetic to the aims, objectives or modus operandi of the hunger strikers willing to condemn Wilson for being a cheap, vulgar, crass, parochial, bigmouth disgrace ?

  • Alias

    “Just a quick show of hands; anyone strongly unsympathetic to the aims, objectives or modus operandi of the hunger strikers willing to condemn Wilson for being a cheap, vulgar, crass, parochial, bigmouth disgrace ?”

    Nah… free spech and all that.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    Not saying he shouldn’t have said it, merely monitoring reaction to what’s been said.

  • Alias

    I have no problem with Sammy saying what he thinks or thinking that way – freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    So you’re content for a man of that intellect, witlessness and crassness being accountable for the Finance portfolio. Good for you. That tells us a good deal about how you think as well as what you think.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Alias,

    Elected representatives have a duty to behave in a proper manner. Young Protestant lads in the north can see the finance minster talking like that and assume it’s acceptable, when it’s not acceptable from an elected representative in a normal society.

    Wilson would be reprimanded by any proper party in any proper society. But of course it’s the DUP in peace wall loving Northern Ireland so it’s all perfectly acceptable there. Next we’ll have Gerry Kelly cracking jokes at the Sinn Fein conference about dead RUC or British soldiers.

  • Decimus

    Nun,

    At least we can be assured* that the education portfolio has rested within the safe hands of people of great erudition and tact for the past decade.

    *Blatant and shameless whataboutery alert.

  • sonofstrongbow

    What about a broadcast ban? Oops, I suppose some actor chappie would only end up saying the same thing with an even more deadpan delivery.

    If Sammy doesn’t pass muster because he kills a joke that’s setting the bar pretty low for some of the other darlings sitting across the chamber from him.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Decimus

    No whataboutery on my part, I can assure you. I’m simply curious about whether this level of cornerboyism is what people are happy to regard as acceptable discourse from those public representatives in positions of significant importance to all of us, whether they’re at their own party conference or whether they’re not. I’m not that surprised about how unsurprised I am that some people don’t appear to regard this kind of tasteless, dullard demagogic pish as beneath us all. Trust me, I don’t care what particular colour of rosette they’re wearing.

  • Decimus

    Nun,

    The whataboutery is all mine. I can’t see why people should be getting upset about an er, crap joke, when we do indeed have other politicians in the executive who boast about the exploits of the scummers who were responsible for the bulk of the murders carried out here. Indeed they openly and happily employ some of them.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Decimus

    ‘So what were these reasons that turned the act of rooting around in your own shit into a laudable enterprise?’

    They didn’t smear their bodily fluids on the walls because they thought it was a ‘laudable enterprise.’ They did it for reasons of hygiene. It’s amazing that you don’t know this; and an indication of how thoroughly propagandised much of the population here is.

  • Decimus

    They did it for reasons of hygiene.

    Billy,

    Thanks for that. Have you any idea how much it costs to replace a computer screen?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Nunoftheabove asks a very good question, which I hope he won’t mind my repeating:

    ‘anyone strongly unsympathetic to the aims, objectives or modus operandi of the hunger strikers willing to condemn Wilson for being a cheap, vulgar, crass, parochial, bigmouth disgrace?’

    The replies he has received have been incredibly lame. Suffice to say, it’s not an issue of freedom of speech, since no-one is suggesting that Wilson should not be allowed to say what he said.

    The question is whether anyone is willing to criticise or condemn him for the cheap, vulgar, crass, parochial, bigmouthed, disgraceful way he has chosen to exercise his right.

    Anyone have the courage to face up to the question, or the decency to condemn Wilson’s indecency?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    I paid about £120 recently.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Decimus

    I think it’s revealing about Wilson’s character and presumably tells us something about the character of what he regards as at least part his audience, that’s to say the party of which he’s a prominent and long-standing member. That it confirms for us that he hasn’t much of a sense of humour, well, that’s to say the very very least of it.

  • Turgon

    “They did it for reasons of hygiene.”

    Yes extremely hygenic: I can see the World Health Organisation proposing it any day now.

    As far as I understand the problem was that the prisoners refused to leave their cells to shower and were provided with wash hand basins: these refused to use and many of them they then smashed. Then they refused to leave their cells or empty their chamber pots. At that point they began their own unique form of modern art.

  • dennis the menace

    what is indecent about ridiculing terrorists who wallowed in their own filth? the only thing indecent is that we as a society endured their activities for too long

  • Decimus

    Nun,

    The guy doesn’t like republicans and he finds their habit of er, muck spreading both disgusting and amusing. He likened it to the behaviour of incontinent cry babies. The joke may not have been side splitting, but what exactly was so bad about it otherwise?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    The prisoners refused to wear prison uniforms, since prison uniforms are for criminals, a designation that republican prisoners refused to accept. So they were forced to live naked, with only their blankets across their shoulders to keep out the cold. The prison authorities upped the pressure by refusing to allow prisoners to leave their cells unless in prison uniform – so prisoners could not do so, even to use the toilet.

    Eventually the prison authorities ratcheted up the issue by refusing to remove the buckets into which prisoners urinated and defecated. Faced with such extreme sanitary hazard, prisoners took the horrific but necessary step of smearing their faeces across the wall – had they left piles of shit in the corner, the prison blocks would soon have become pestilential cesspools and men would have started to die very quickly. By spreading it thinly across a wide area (ie walls and ceiling), the sanitary threat was dissipated, as much as it can be under such circumstances.

    Prison authorities cleaned the walls only very rarely – usually when there was a TV crew around.

    You seem to be under the impression that the prisoners positively chose to live in such extreme degradation, as if they were participating in some sort of nihilistic performance art.

    In fact they were responding, as best they could, to the quite breathtakingly inhumane actions of the prison authorities and the British government. Her Majesty’s Government was prepared to do great evil within Her Majesty’s Prisons in order to break her enemies. Her enemies responded by suffering great evil while refusing, with a degree of will that must surely astonish anyone with a trace of empathy in their hearts, to be broken.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Mandela did not wish to live on Robben Island. Christ did not wish to be scourged at the pillar. The Blanketmen did not wish to live among their own bodily fluids.

    In each case, these political prisoners endured the evil inflicted upon them by their captors, rather than surrender to that evil. That is the root of their enduring power.

  • dennis the menace

    those in the maze were worse than criminals – they were terrorists who should have been allowed to die in their own filth.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Decimus

    ‘…what exactly was so bad about it otherwise?’

    That’s the thing. You just don’t get it, do you?

  • Turgon

    dennis the menace,
    I disagree: the stuff on the walls was not able to decide what it was or how it behaved: the people putting it on the walls were able to make the decisions; as such they are worse.

    Billy Pilgrim,
    Even wikipedia, famously less than unionist friendly or impartia,l disagrees with your claims about the dirty protest. There you go: a project for this evening: why not modify the wikipedia entry to make it more to your liking. Revisionism on a Sunday evening: what could a republican find more fun.

  • Decimus

    The prisoners refused to wear prison uniforms, since prison uniforms are for criminals, a designation that republican prisoners refused to accept.

    Billy,

    Apart from when they wanted to take visits. Then they managed to temporarily suspend their principles. Indeed prisoners from the north west found that they could suspend their principles for a lot longer in order to get transfers to HMP Magilligan where ODC rules applied.

    You seem to be under the impression that the prisoners positively chose to live in such extreme degradation

    That is exactly what they did do. That’s why nobody outside of their own gene pool cared.

  • Turgon

    Billy Pilgrim,
    I know you do not like me: nor I you but can I provide a word of advice.

    Few people in the real world equate Nelson Mandella with the IRA.

    However, almost no one (apart from yourself and a few true zealots) equate our Lord with the IRA. If you remember our Lord died to save sinners. The IRA committed sin by killing people. Even leaving aside Christ’s divinity the difference is stark.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    When it gets to the stage that Wikipedia is presented as an anti-unionist conspiracy; and a comment that ‘they were shit,’ meets the reply: ‘no, they were worse than shit,’ it’s time to slowly back out of the room.

    Goodnight gentlemen.

  • Turgon

    Billy Pilgrim,
    Before you go: thanks for trying to equate our Lord with IRA terrorists: another good line to remind you of next time you claim to be a moderate.

  • sonofstrongbow

    That Irish Republicans can actually believe the nonsense reproduced above is on first reading astounding. However on reflection, given their routine ritual justifications for the heinous violence perpetrated by their ‘movement’ over the years, spinning the smearing of shit into an heroic act of defiance is simply power for the course.

    If nothing else it sure makes me happy to be a unionist looking in from the outside, although I do confess to a tincture of pity for those who lead such delusional lives.

  • Barnshee

    BP
    “The prisoners refused to wear prison uniforms, since prison uniforms are for criminals, a designation that republican prisoners refused to accept.”

    there we have it

    The murder of Kathleen Eakin (Child age 9?)in Claudy was not a crime
    The murder of Nan Davidson pensioner (68) in Coleraine was not a crime

    The list continues the people who carried out these acts were criminals ” a designation that republican prisoners refused to accept

  • Alias

    “So you’re content for a man of that intellect, witlessness and crassness being accountable for the Finance portfolio. Good for you. That tells us a good deal about how you think as well as what you think.” – Nunoftheabove

    It tells you zero about me. But why be so coy? Feel free to ask for whatever you feel is essential information about me. I’ll tell you to mind your own business, of course…

    Now, why do you feel an urgent need for other posters to share your disapproval of Mr Wilson and to express it in your terms, such that you solicit it with leading questions and then attempt to malign others who do not respond in the way you led them to respond? Are your seeking an authority in numbers that you lack in logic and fact?

    Just as you are entitled to think – wrongly, as it happens – that Mr Wilson is an unintelligent dolt, he too is entitled to think what he likes about others and to express it.

    As for being “content” or otherwise that Sammy is a minister in a foreign administration: I don’t vote in that jurisdiction or that particular constituency and, insofar as that jurisdiction competes with Ireland, I see a competitive advantage to it having an incompetent finance minister. Unfortunately, however, it doesn’t.

    Personally, I wouldn’t mock the dead, but that is just a discretion.

    “Elected representatives have a duty to behave in a proper manner. Young Protestant lads in the north can see the finance minster talking like that and assume it’s acceptable, when it’s not acceptable from an elected representative in a normal society.” – Republic of Connaught

    It is not acceptable to whom? Only to those with the discretion. His remarks do not violate any legal restriction on the right to free speech. If nationalists were interested in setting examples to youth, they’d be better served to refrain from electing mass-murdeers to public office and to refrain from glorifying criminals in assorted prisons.

  • Jimmy Sands

    [i]In each case, these political prisoners endured the evil inflicted upon them by their captors, rather than surrender to that evil. That is the root of their enduring power.[/i]

    Although of the three examples, Mandela isn’t actually worshipped.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    “It tells you zero about me” – I’ll be the judge of that thanks, unless of course you’re posing. Or lying – feel free to clarify if you wish.

    “Are your seeking an authority in numbers that you lack in logic and fact? ”

    Authority ? Numbers ? ! LOL, no, I’m curious as to whether there is anyone who feels no contradiction between articulating criticism of Wilson for his uncultured, cheap and demagogic remarks, and being entirely unsympathetic to republicanism. You’re not one of those willing or able to discern the difference, it seems to me.

    You may wish to argue that Mr Wilson is other than an unintelligent dolt; can you perhaps help me identify the evidence for that with reference to these – almost certainly scripted – remarks though ?

    Again, I would support his right to say what he thinks too. You continue to appear not to understand or accept the necessary distinction between defending that right and reserving and exercising the right to criticize what he thinks or says on precisely the same basis.

  • http://newunionism.blogspot.com Ed Simpson

    Well this thread really makes me feel positive about the future of Northern Irish politics.

  • separatesix

    Sammy Wilson’s comments are not in contradiction to the First Minister wanting members of the Roman Catholic community to join the DUP. Sammy made a joke at republicanism’s expense not against ordinary decent hard-working catholics, personally I think the term catholic unionist is an oxymoron.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Barnshee

    You hit the nail on the head. I can’t believe anybody would say that these murders were not criminal. The one that sticks in my mind the most is the murder of baby Tracy Munn in the early 70′s. She was killed by a no warning bomb planted at The Balmoral Showrooms on the Shankill Rd. A totally criminal, sectarian attack.

    By the way, Sammy Wilson is a clampet!

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Barnshee / Alan

    I didn’t say I agreed with them. I said only that the prisoners did not regard themselves as criminals. You or I may disagree with that, but it was THEIR opinion, and all that followed – blanket protest, dirty protest, hunger strikes – flowed from that. That was the only point I was making, and it surely is uncontroversial.

    One need not agree with the principle with which they started in order to understand the logic of everything that flowed from that principle.

    This issue arose from the point, made by some posters, that the dirty protest took place because the prisoners wished to ‘impress’ some notional outside audience. I simply pointed out that this was false.

  • Turgon

    Billy Pilgrim,
    “I didn’t say I agreed with them.”

    However, you said this about them further up the thread

    “Mandela did not wish to live on Robben Island. Christ did not wish to be scourged at the pillar. The Blanketmen did not wish to live among their own bodily fluids.

    In each case, these political prisoners endured the evil inflicted upon them by their captors, rather than surrender to that evil. That is the root of their enduring power.”

    You describe them as political prisoners who “endured the evil inflicted upon them by their captors, rather than surrender to that evil.”

    Then when challenged you say that you did not say you agreed with them. You do not say, however, you disagreed with them.

    Therein lies the moral bankruptcy at the heart of your position. You make comments lauding the terrorists then say you did not support them but equally do not condemn them.

  • Turgon
  • Turgon

    Test italics off

  • michael-mcivor

    Turgon-

    ” The I.R.A committed sin by killing people ”

    Did our Lord committ sin when he killed a lot of Egyptian people at the red sea because they went after Moses and the Israelites-

  • DC

    Well this thread really makes me feel positive about the future of Northern Irish politics.

    Just as well you wont find the future of Northern Irish politics in this thread.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Turgon’s imaginary Lord’s Da saw to the slaughter of a right few Amalekites too – maybe that was ok on the grounds that they weren’t, as far as we know, unionists.

    And let’s not forget that Turgon’s Lord came not to bring peace, but a sword, according to his alleged chum Matthew, at any rate.

  • ayeYerMa

    Once again, I see that BBC journalists are showing their complete incompetency over this issue.

    Julian O’Neill on BBC Newsline tonight has boldly declared that the DUP vision is a long way off due to Sammy Wilson mocking Sinn Fein playing up their prisoner past.

    Julian and the BBC, please send a memo to all your journalists to grow a few brain cells and realise that CATHOLICS AND REPUBLICANS AREN’T THE SAME THING. The entire concept of Irish Republicanism is incompatible with Northern Ireland working and deserves to be mocked wholeheartedly by the DUP.

    Julian must also somehow seem to think that it is somehow abnormal or unhealthy in a democracy for political parties in to have jabs at their political opponents.

  • Alias

    “Authority ? Numbers ? ! LOL, no, I’m curious as to whether there is anyone who feels no contradiction between articulating criticism of Wilson for his uncultured, cheap and demagogic remarks, and being entirely unsympathetic to republicanism. You’re not one of those willing or able to discern the difference, it seems to me.” – Nunoftheabove

    Well, let’s hope you don’t get to set the questions in any survey other than your own, since your leading questioning was designed to solicit support for your own conclusion rather to solicit the conclusions of others, i.e. that Sammy is a “cheap, vulgar, crass, parochial, bigmouth disgrace.”

    The reason you addressed it to those “unsympathetic to the aims, objectives or modus operandi of the hunger strikers” was simply to avert suspicion that your conclusion – the one for which you were soliciting support – was formed by your own prejudice and not devoid of the expected impartiality of the suveyor.

    There is no logic or fact supporting your biased conclusion, and so you acted to seek support for it by a “show of hands.”

    When in a hole, stop digging…

    “You may wish to argue that Mr Wilson is other than an unintelligent dolt; can you perhaps help me identify the evidence for that with reference to these – almost certainly scripted – remarks though ?” – Nunoftheabove

    Well, I can’t help you there. But I can refer you to the study of various IQ testing methods. None of them apply your, ahem, ‘scientific’ method for quantifying intelligence from a single sentence. Perhaps you have discovered the new method you would like to share or perhaps you are have sim[ply arrived at a conclusion with no supporting evidence for it?

    “Again, I would support his right to say what he thinks too. You continue to appear not to understand or accept the necessary distinction between defending that right and reserving and exercising the right to criticize what he thinks or says on precisely the same basis.” – Nunoftheabove

    On the contrary, you only support his right to say whatever you agree with; and you seek the support of others to condemn him when he falls foul of that idiocyncratic parameter.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    My own prejudice ?! About what or who ? And why ? Why would I go to the bother of constructing a fairly readily understandable question if I simple wished to name-call ?

    “There is no logic or fact supporting your biased conclusion, and so you acted to seek support for it by a “show of hands.””

    What biased conclusion ? I asked a question, you’re the one who’s projecting here to a highly noticeable extent. It’s a stupid, cheap thing to say from an uncultured and unimpressive public figure. As a matter of fact I didn’t suggest that Mr Wilson was or is unintelligent. His remarks do rather suggest he can identify that many of his audience are lacking in intelligence and civility and that his failed attempts at humour are his attempt to identify with them on precisely that basis. You can deny that if you wish but lots of luck disproving it.

    “you only support his right to say whatever you agree with; and you seek the support of others to condemn him”

    I don’t need anyone else’s support do so, thanks; thus, if you’re as supportive of the right to free speech as I am then you’ll support me in offering my opinion or, in this case, the mere asking of as fairly intelligible question. I’d prefer to know what he thinks than not but I suspect this particular comment tells us more about Wilson and his relationship to his audience than perhaps conceivably he could possibly know himself. To try to explain this, for, oh, the third time though, if you can’t quite grasp that defending that right doesn’t indicate wholehearted support for what he says and that we should esteem public representatives who conduct themselves like street corner layabouts in their use of language then the IQ problem ain’t mine, kid.

  • Alias

    If you don’t need support, why did you actively solicit it? Well, we’ve already answered that: you haven’t supported your claim that Mr Wilson is too unintelligent to hold the finance ministry based on his comment.

    One other point about your intolerance of views that dissent from your own. It appears to be so extreme that you would like others who fall foul of your narrow parameter to lose their employment/career as a direct consequence of the transgression. Why else would you link Mr Wilson’s comment to his role as finance minister, implying that he should lose his job as a consequence of holding/expressing an opinion about the dirty protestors that you disagree with?

    “So you’re content for a man of that intellect, witlessness and crassness being accountable for the Finance portfolio. Good for you. That tells us a good deal about how you think as well as what you think.” – Nunoftheabove

    Given that Mr Wilson was talking about babies, perhaps you too should grow up?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    I’ll support the claims which I actually make and the implications which go with them thanks. Those will be the implications I put on them though, not the ones you make up and endeavour to project onto me from within your fairly obviously parochial perspective.

    Thanks again for the revelation on how you think. Tells us plenty, babe.

  • http://alaninbelfast.blogspot.com Alan in Belfast

    BBC Radio Ulster’s Talkback picked up on Sammy’s comments at lunchtime (6 min 35 secs in) …

  • tomthumbuk

    This retrospective melarkey about whether the IRA prisoners were criminals or POWs is a bit of revisionism gone wierd.

    Here’s a bit of convoluted logic from Martin McGuinness In an interview during his Presidential campaign,

    “In an interview with the Independent, he said the IRA

    “was involved in incidents which resulted in the accidental killing of innocent people”.

    Mr McGuinness added “the term used by the relatives of those people who were killed was that they were murdered”.

    He said he wouldn’t disagree with that – a significant shift for Sinn Fein.”

    Now, forgive me if I’m wrong, but ,in law, if someone is killed accidentally, it’s not murder and if someone is killed deliberately, it’s murder.

    Martin has got it the wrong way round.
    McGuinness needs to get his “Idiot’s guide to the Law” out.
    Anyhow to sum it up, it’s not up to the prisoners to decide if they are criminals or not ,it’s up to the courts.

    So there you have it, they were!

  • Alias

    Nun, you might find this link helpful.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Alias

    Many thanks. Colouring-in book, is it ? Crayons provided ? Is that your review, the one about how utterly unintelligible it all was for you but how you liked the nice shiny cover and so gave it three stars, a great big kiss and an extra large cute smiley sticker ?

    Cheer up, xmas is coming and they might issue a special pop-up picture edition just for you. Let’s hope so.

  • vanhelsing

    Getting back to the subject – “Long Creche” – still think it’s very clever and funny [even if the Shinners came up with it and not Sammy].

  • Mark

    As vanhelsing points out , the origin of the joke is very clever and funny .

    There have been some classics down the years . ” Fourteen dead but not forgotten , we got eighteen and Mountbatten ” is another that stands out .

    I can remember a Unionist politician cracking a joke about the N.I shooting team at a Commonwealth games .

    You can of course spoil a good joke / punchline by laughing at it yourself first and you can totally ruin it by giggling like a little girl .

    Thankfully Sammy Wilson did neither.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Surely the real story here is “chuckies made a funny”?

  • Decimus

    Surely the real story here is “chuckies made a funny”?

    Intentionally.

  • IrelandNorth

    Seems Sammy pandered to the lowest common denominator in the ‘disappointingly uncorrect politician’ (dup) category. Sounded like a sectarian Kevin McAleer. “It’s the way ya tell ‘em – Sammy!” Haahh, arragh! Did like the Blues Brothers raybans, though! Keep that image consultant on contract, she knows what she’s doin’. The papal joke you told Ali G was infinately better. Would get a hoot and a half, even ‘doin soith’. We may be fuckin’ Fenians down here, but were certainly no Taigs.