‘Norrisgate’ blogger upsets ‘balanced’ relationship between Ireland’s media and politicians

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Here’s a fascinating post from the blogger who brought David Norris’ presidential campaign shuddering to a halt (see also Pete’s richer note on the wider provenance of the story). Note that ‘all’ he needed was a nudge in the right direction (from a plausibly deniable source), Google and the heavy duty journalistic search engine Lexus Nexus.

Two thoughts. For all the slightness of the power invested in the office Presidential elections must be the dirtiest in the Irish electoral calendar. Norris’ colourful and impetuous life has proven a lightening rod for that.

How easily he seems to have been tipped over with a modicum of curiosity and decent research skills. Ireland is not burdened with a Murdoch, but its press too often mistake deference for solid Irish values of decency and civility.

The eponymous blogger at The System Works has blown a whistle, both on Senator Norris, and on the often too cosy relationship between the political and media classes in Ireland, as it happens, north and south, in which contact is traded for good stories (or making bad ones ‘disappear’).

This non Irish blogger has demonstrated both the power of solid research, and how vulnerable the political classes can be when the irregulars take the job once solely delegated to the ladies and gentlemen of the Press.

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  • Rory Carr

    Whatever of the effort involved (which Not everyone, I see, is so taken with mot

    http://tinyurl.com/3fw2p7h

  • Rory Carr

    Whatever of the effort involved (which Mick seems to consider was not all that much) not everyone, I see, is so taken with the motivation, or indeed effect, of the efforts of The System Works.

    There also appear to be some doubts about this worthy’s credentials as a “non Irish blogger” as his revealed identity of ‘John Connolly’ might suggest.

    I learned all this without recourse to, or dependence upon, the skills of mainstream journalists but merely by linking to another Irish blogger’s site. Aren’t I clever?

    But, here, have a look for yourselves…and judge.

    http://tinyurl.com/3fw2p7h

  • Rory Carr

    I don’t quite know what happened with the truncated initial post above. Seems that I am not so bloody clever after all. Apologies.

  • pippakin

    Bloggers have shone a light into dark places. Mr Norris views on pederasty were wrong. In his press conference yesterday he made it clear that he had made a mistake. If the letter had been exposed after the election the shock waves would almost certainly have engulfed and embarrassed the Presidency. .

  • RepublicanStones

    What leads you to believe him to be non-irish Mick?

    I get the impression he is indeed at least part Irish. As his beef with Norris seems to have boiled over when Norris invited Israeli historian Illan Pape to address the Oireachtas, as he admits himself…

    My main problem with Norris in recent times has been his outspoken criticism of Israel. There is lots of that in Ireland (indeed, all of Europe). Yet Norris went much too far for my taste by inviting the Israeli Communist historian Ilan Pappé, a controversial and highly biased academic, to address the Oireachtas (Irish Parliament).

    Further, he states on his Twitter that he divides his time between London and Ireland (with Jerusalem in his heart…bless)

    http://twitter.com/#!/mendingtheworld

    And as Rory notes above his name aint exactly of the exotic variety.

    Btw excellent link Rory. I do question the mental faculty of somebody who claims the system works whilst also seeking to mend the world ;)

  • RepublicanStones

    I believe this will put the issue to bed.

    http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/hello-world/

    Nice glasses, obviously he didn’t intend to pose there with all those books behind him (Ayn Rand fan eh?)

  • pippakin

    Journalists and politicians are mutually dependent and since when has that been news? Its the same in most countries Ireland is no different. Bloggers, being the modern equivalent of the penniless writer alone in his attic.. are independent and therefore able to explore far more freely the nooks and crannies of each case.

    I’m not impressed by the anti or pro Israelis conspiracy theorists. In time the story would have emerged. it was arrogant of Mr Norris to assume, as he seems to have, that it would not.

    It may be that politicians have a kind of tunnel vision that allows them to think if they are doing it its alright, more importantly many of them seem convinced they will never get caught. The bloggers reference to John Edwards high lights the unthinking arrogance .

  • Mick Fealty

    Can we quit the man playing? Intook him to be non Irish largely because of the subject matter of his blog. His treatment of the Irish material was certainly politically literate. But… I fail to see what it has to do with the main point above?

  • RepublicanStones

    Apologies Mick, but when you link to a young lad who seeks to infer Norris as being ‘evil’ and labels his supporters as anti-semites, are we not entitled to react as we see fit?
    Besides if i really wanted to play the man i would have mentioned his …….

    He does raise an interesting question on one of his posts…

    A popular Irish blog compared me to Anders Behring Breivik, suggesting I was heading down the same path as a mass murderer of teenagers.
    This led me to ponder something. If people like them (perhaps constituting the majority of Irish bloggers and the elite media) were to come by the information I did, what do you think they would have done? Would they have done nothing about it? Perhaps these people would even try to actively bury the entire thing, all because of their fondness for David Norris?
    What can one say about the mindset of people like this?

    Which is indeed interesting to ponder, but not when its asked by somebody who freely admits his actions were politically motivated, as well as being from somebody who actively propagates long debunked propaganda on his own website.

  • RepublicanStones

    Btw some are speculating on Twitter our friend received the tip off from a Michael D activist. Connolly admits he got the tip-off but denies it being from a Higgins activist. Although this is interesting…

    My friend is adamant the convictions in question were for Nawi’s political activities in Judea and Samaria, not statutory rape, and I believe the person on that.

    Am i reading that right. Connolly admits Nawi’s conviction was as a result of his political organizing against the occupation?

  • andnowwhat

    This is the very blogger I was hinting at the other day re. the Norris thread on P.ie.

    He was being questioned by other users about his relationship with employees of the israeli embassy.

    These questions started within the first 10 pages or so of the thread. I’m guessing it was easier for me to scan as I am familiar with posters who are pro zionist and their usual opponents.

  • Harry Flashman

    A political blogger with a political agenda successfully hindered the political career of a politician whose politics he disagrees with.

    And the problem is?

  • http://cork2toronto.blogspot.com Mark Dowling

    um, shurely “LexisNexis”?

    Lexus Nexus is no doubt some sort of automobile.

  • Lionel Hutz

    I have mixed feelings on this one. It seems to me that Norris has been very harshly treated as a consequences of this letter. To try to tie this in to the findings of the Cloyne report is also concerning.

    I don’t see anything wrong with Norris’ letter. The only that raises an eyebrow is how he trumps up his own position, but then I suppose he is addressing a foreign court who wouldn’t know if he is a saint or a drug-dealer. He had to say who he is, I suppose. But the points he made were valid.

    In saying that, i’m not sure I would have voted him for President. I do think though that those who have supported him and then deserted him because of this letter are completely spineless

  • andnowwhat

    @Lionel Hutz

    You are a vastly more educated man than I but I understand that Norris’ views very much reflect one which is understood among classicists in relation to younger men etc.

    Is this right?

  • Alias

    It shows that bloggers can be more useful to the public than the media.

    Thanks to this blogger, the Irish public were saved from making fools of themselves by electing this individual to the office of Presidency, and the office of Presidency was saved from the inevitable disgrace that would have been brought upon it when the letter surfaced at a latter date.

    Perhaps that is why the quisling media were promoting an individual who was unfit for the office…

  • Munsterview

    To begin with I know David Norris personally through cultural events over decades and indeed through political opposition in my earlier years. At cultural events he participated in I have often been in shared company with him and while making no bones about where he stood on the physical force issue, when discussions strayed into the political sphere, he was otherwise amenable to both listening and exchanging views.

    In cultural matters he too had strong opinions but he was also tolerant, witty and charming in company and could be the centre of attention by just being his natural self as he also could be the life and soul of a gathering after the event.

    In such gatherings precisely because David is such a likable. pleasant, genuinely funny guy, there was a tolerance of his expressed attitudes that had little to do with support for ‘the message’ and everything to do with the general attitude towards the messenger!

    When David decided to run for the Presidency of The Republic Of Ireland, it is my personal belief that in regard to his popularity, neither David or those of his election his campaign ‘ secret agenda orientated’ appreciated this distinction or that once the the real campaign started, his popular support just would not all translate into political support as much as they thought.

    In relation to the letter that he send to the Israeli Courts there are distinctions to be made that that have not been highlighted as much as they perhaps should. David was fully entitled to make the representations that he did as a private individual who could point to the fact that he was also a Senator in the Irish Parliament and as such a person of some standing in Irish Society, pretty much as if he used his former Trinity Academic record or cultural standing for
    added status to make the same point.

    However when David Norris made these representations on Official Headed Senate notepaper, that was a completely different matter. He was then in the first instance a Acting as a Member Of The Irish Senate with everything else secondary. He did not have the authorization of the Chairman Of The Senate or The House collectively for his action and had it been common knowledge back then even in those less stringent standards times, there would have been uproar.

    Moral issues aside there is a very serious question of judgement here : David has been a constant and sometimes trenchant critic of the Israeli State in relation to Civil Rights abuses and other related matters. He as an aware political person should have appreciated how unforgiving the Official Israeli State is to it’s perceived enemies, real and imagined. At the top end State Sanctioned Assassination has been used to silence opponents while all other possible pressuring means, including threat and blackmail are in commonplace use as State policy.

    The most charitable construct that can be placed in his then actions in relation to the plea made for his former lover, is David was not really thinking very clearly given his emotional entanglement, when he made his submission. However he was also giving a significant hostage to fortune and one that the Israeli Government would not hesitate to use in the right circumstances.

    The fact that David did not appreciate that he should have made his election committee aware of this and at least two more apparently equally grave matters, at least grave in relation to his election prospects show at best a touching naivety and at worst construct, a deviousness and arrogance that by common consensus, should have no place in public life.

    There is every indication that David’s campaign was effectively undermined on a planned systematic way, the local agents of this may be quickly identified, Irish public life is a rather small and intimate world. However the ‘hidden hands’ are another matter : now to see those ‘outed’ would be very interesting indeed!

    These are issues concerning public life that should be investigated. However now that David’s campaign for Presidency is over, the same ‘prominent figures’ that tried to run an unacceptable agenda on an acceptable figure, will now lead the ‘Greek chorus’ for ‘compassion’, ‘understanding’, ‘decency’ etc as they define these traits and there can be no examination of issues as these could lead back to examining the values of the ‘ Agenda’ and indeed the motives of those who assembled the values of ‘The Agenda’.

    Plenty of calls for ‘transparency’ in public life by everyone from the Taoiseach and President down : in the aftermath of the Norris resignation as a candidate we will see just how far this transparency go. I suspect and indeed expect as with that other ‘decent skin’ Harry Wheelan former AG and miss-appropiately appointed President Of The High Court, there will be a closing of Establishment ranks and a deafening silence and that includes Journalists in the know !

  • pippakin

    Perhaps Irish Presidential elections are so often ‘dirty’ because they are usually the last stop before retirement. It always seems to be a no quarter given contest.

    Mr Norris is an experienced politician he must have known this so the poor judgement shown in writing the letter on Seanad heading is compounded by his refusal to recognise the danger in his candidacy.

    Alias is right when he says disclosure now has saved Ireland potential embarrassment.

  • Munsterview

    For Christ sake Alias it is not always about you or who you politically support Internationally !

    You apparently take your views uncritically from the Israeli State line and spin, when I want to find our what is happening inside Israel from a Jewish view, I look up a few ‘Refusnic’ sites or see what Jewish Believers opposed to Zionism have to say on the subject in sites of Internationally progressive politicized Jews such as Henrymakow.com

    Unlike apparently your good self and your views on the Israeli State propaganda spin, neither do I have a blanket acceptance of what is on in these sites : I take these for what they are, alternative views and very important for countering opinions such as you express and providing a balance; views that because they came from impeccable and pro Jewish as distinct from pro-Zionist sources, cannot be dismissed by the likes of you as ‘Anti-Jewish’ per se.

    Alias : difficult as it may be for you to believe this I was not aware of the identity, the religious affiliation or the nationality of the blogger that broke the story as I was not even aware of who the blogger was. Over the weekend I was with friends in Mid Munster attending a major and rather special cultural festival.

    Other things since intervened and both the saturday and sunday papers are still unread. Likewise thanks to changed cars and a non working radio I have not had any news over the weekend while traveling.

    I wrote what could be termed an ‘insiders view’ : I was taught my political science skills, such as they are by a Fine Gaeler and like him became one of ‘the back-room crowd’ that often had more in common with each other cross party than with some of our own respective party members. I spend the last few hours in the company of one such person, ex-Fianna Fail ‘insider’ as it happens and a totally pissed off one with a thing or two to say that were of more than passing interest about the inner workings of the Southern State.

    A number of things arise from your post : while I do believe and indeed would support the rights of all gay people to a full expression of their sexuality, and while also believe that they have a general right to have their expressions of their sexuality tolerated by the majority of society, I do not hold that the majority society should be forced to accept the views of any one minority sector of society as a majority value.

    I personally did not believe that David Norris was the most suitable candidate for Irish Presidency and I would have opposition bordering on contempt for some influential people on his campaign who have dedicated their lifetimes to tearing down traditional values at every opportunity without once putting one decent thing into the vacuum they created.

    Likeable and all as David is as a person and much as I have personal sympathy for him and what he has been through, politically I would have been opposed to him and many of those close to him irrespective of whether Sinn Fein runs an Official Candidate or otherwise.

    Alias : “….Would the Irish have elected this individual if they knew of his support for a pederast? ….”

    I already pointed out the dicotomy of support for David as a person and support for the believes, sexual and political of David. Did you even bother to read what I posted before doing your usual allegations of anti-semitism and rant ?

    In my original post I set out the situation as it appeared to me over sixty or so lines. Of this my comments on the Israeli State and it’s ‘Black Arts’ occupy a total of seven lines or about 12% of my post as a whole yet you seize on that and turn what was a legitimate observation and factual political exposure into an accusation of bigotry and (implied ) anti-semitism.

    Were I to refer to you in similar terms the cards red, or black would be quickly produced as of course if I used such insulting terminology on your good self, that would be ‘anti- semitic’ in your book with calls for Mick to act backed up by the usual Greek Chorus!

    Well we will see what Mick or whoever is currently monitoring slugger do about your remark and if dual standards apply here in Slugger when insulting nomenclature is used, but personally I will not be holding my breath on that one, nor will I be losing any sleep on the matter !

  • Munsterview

    MV…’.Well we will see what Mick or whoever is currently monitoring slugger do about your remark and if dual standards apply here in Slugger when insulting nomenclature is used, but personally I will not be holding my breath on that one, nor will I be losing any sleep on the matter !…..”

    Since the last insulting ( to me) post of Alias has been removed, it appears Mick is keeping an eye on things after all and that an even handed policy do indeed apply. While I can appreciate Mick’s intent to keep a civil site, I would much prefer to have the freedom to ‘slug out’ the matters raised as I did with a certain ‘unmasked’ persona !

    If Alias was removed as result of the terminology he used against me, then nothing has been resolved as regards to the issues arising in how I perceive Alias acting here or as to how he perceives me ( if his expressed attitudes are sincere that is) of also doing.

    If Alias is currently carded and banned, then when he is back perhaps Mick might consider allowing each of us a blog to air our respective views and concerns since we both, it would seem, have equally strong views as to how much freedom of expression there should be in certain areas of political debate.

    This is possibly one way to clear the air and leave the cards ( and I do not mean Mick’s ones) fall where they will. This is not about petty personalities or point scoring, at least as far as I am concerned. Very important issues of Academic Freedom and rights of Free Expression are involved here and should be debated.

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    Munstersview

    Thanks for your 8:46 post, it was knowledgeable and as I have not been keeping up with the Norris affair very informative.

    One wonders if Norris supporters jumped ship because they feared Mossad would do to them what they did to David.

    This does raise an issue why ‘gallant and plucky little Israel’ is involving itself in Irish affairs, after all they seem to have destroyed Norris’s run at the presidency due to his involvement in what Israel regards as its private business. I e oppressing palestinian’s and illegally occupying the west bank.

    As to the letter, I am told love is blind.

  • pippakin

    Its like me calling a black man nigger because sure its how they refer to themselves! Acceptable? I think not.

    I don’t know David Norris, knowing me I wouldn’t recognise him if I passed him in the street, which is a pity because if I did I might pause to kick him. As far as I know his letter was not private and would therefore have been among court documents.

    Is it possible he really believed the majority of people agreed with his beliefs? I doubt that, so he was relying on old friends to keep their mouths shut for his sake, and for those of us who believe homosexuality should be no barrier to defend his candidacy no matter what.

    Its poor judgement whichever way its looked at and an arrogance that beggars belief. David Norris may be charm personified but he has shown poor judgement and contempt for the opinions of the vast majority of people in this country and no one of such opinions should be President.

    This concentration on who broke the story and why is ridiculous. It makes no difference! except whoever did it and for whatever reason did Ireland a service.

    As for those who may be afraid of Mossad, I doubt that comes into it. politicians and the media who support them seem to live by one rule: don’t get caught. Mr Norris was caught.

  • Munsterview

    Mickhall : comments appreciated. Long post circa 3 PM lost somewhere so I will have to return to Pip on the topics raised.

    David Norris had been and is a consistent and trenchant critic of Israel. They would also percieve him as somewhat of a political loose cannon that would not always obey International Diplomatic nicitie if he took office as President of Ireland and he most definately would be percieved by them as no friend of Israel.

    It was therefore in Israel’s interest to scupper the Norris for President campaign and anyone that did not appreciate why they would do just that is not living in the real world. National intrests were at stake and to the the past Israel Intel black arts protection regularly include assisnation of enemies percieved of imagined when this was deemed necessary.

    How this was accomplished is just a matter of detail : whether this was accomplished by Isralie Intel or by some individual perciving themselves as ‘a friend of Israel’ is immetarial. If these matters followed the usual pattern it was a probably a mixture of the two, Isralie Intel, leaked information to an ‘asset’ who then passed it on to a contact who as the cats paw of the operation, may not have been aware of where the material origionated. !

    How often over the years of The Troubles, did British Anti-Republican material end up in the Sunday Times and other quality Newspapers have been ‘planted’ there by British Intel sources using the same routes ?

    Nothing new or indeed unusual in this. I had actually written my first post on Norris before the weekend and failed to post as my broadband was down. When I got back Tuesday I checked slugger for the latest on Norrir, it was Mick’s article, and since mine was a general piece, I posted on that. So much for the great conspiricy : I was not aware until I read all the articles much later as to the blogger background was or how these letter matters had played out in detail.

    So much for my supposed anti-Semitic stance!

    Ironically, I agree with Alias, the blogger did the Irish State some service even if that was as I suspect, secondary to his primary objective of halting the bandwaggon that could have carried a percieved enemy of the Isralie State into High Office.

  • Munsterview

    Mickhall : comments appreciated. Long post circa 3 PM lost somewhere so I will have to return to Pip on the topics raised.

    David Norris had been and is a consistent and trenchant critic of Israel. They would also perceive him as somewhat of a political loose cannon that would not always obey International Diplomatic incite if he took office as President of Ireland and he most definitely would be perceived by them as no friend of Israel.

    It was therefore in Israel’s interest to scupper the Norris for President campaign and anyone that did not appreciate why they would do just that is not living in the real world. National interests were at stake and to the recent past Israel Intel black arts protection regularly include assassination of enemies perceived of imagined when this was deemed necessary.

    ‘Nobbling’ Norris was small potatoes indeed compare to some of the things they have done in this regard over the years !

    How this was accomplished is just a matter of detail : whether this was accomplished by Israeli Intel or by some individual perceiving themselves as ‘a friend of Israel’ is immaterial. If these matters followed the usual pattern it was a probably a mixture of the two, Israeli Intel, leaked information to an ‘asset’ who then passed it on to a contact who as the cats paw of the operation, may not have been aware of where the material originated. !

    How often over the years of The Troubles, did British Anti-Republican material end up in the Sunday Times and other quality Newspapers have been ‘planted’ there by British Intel sources using the very same strategy ? Nothing new or indeed unusual in this.

    I had actually written my first post on Norris before the weekend and failed to post as my broadband was down. When I got back Tuesday I checked slugger for the latest on Norris, it was Mick’s article, and since mine was a general piece, I posted on that. So much for the great conspiracy : I was not aware until I read all the articles posted much later in the night as to the blogger background was or how these letter matters had played out in detail.

    So much for my supposed anti-Semitic stance!

    Ironically, I agree with Alias, the blogger did the Irish State some service even if that was as I suspect, secondary to his primary objective of halting the bandwagon that could have carried a perceived enemy of the Israeli State into High Office.

  • Who Is That Dog

    “As for those who may be afraid of Mossad, I doubt that comes into it. politicians and the media who support them seem to live by one rule: don’t get caught. Mr Norris was caught.”

    Which is interesting since the Irish Times have smelt a rat and are now currently forcing the issue of if any of the other candidates pulled this sort of thing and the answer so far is that many of them have and in many cases, for worse cases such as intervening on behalf of murderers and fraudsters already convicted including Bertie Ahern ignoring letters of clemency sent by Katheline Berne regarding a convicted rapist.

    The singular focus on “John Connolly” has absolutely given away his intent on this matter, that being to make sure that Norris was forced out of the election as if he wished to take the system to task, he would have investigated all the candidates. It’s unsurprising that people will call conspiracy since it reeks to high hell of it.

  • pippakin

    Who Is That Dog

    Are you surprised? Surely this is the way the media always react when something of the Norris case happens?

    It does have the whiff of conspiracy but so what, its still better to know before Mr Norris was either selected of worse elected. If any other candidate has done the same, or as you say worse, its about time the MSM did their job and found out.

    For democracy to work the MSM must work, who else is going to tell the vast majority of us what is going on and who is doing it? I have no problem with where this story came from. If the story were false it would be a different matter and Israel or whoever would be guilty of a smear campaign, clearly its not the case so what are these particular conspirators guilty of, telling the truth?

  • Who Is That Dog

    “so what are these particular conspirators guilty of, telling the truth?”

    Less “Telling the truth” and more “Distorting the truth to suit an agenda”. Norris wasn’t alone in sending those type of letters, yet somehow it was all too convenient to single Norris out as “JAYSUS HE SUPPORTED A PEDO” and it was far too easy for the gutter press to run with that instead of looking at the context of it (Unlike the Irish Times which did and issued multiple editorials about it).

    It’s not the truth, its the truth as presented by an agenda, which in this case was a zionist out to get Norris because he didn’t like his stance on Israel and quite frankly it’s appalling that the MSM reported it in the most salacious and gutter press style possible instead of looking at the facts of it.

    Of course it was probably better that it came out in time, Irish people can’t have a pedo sympathiser in office, oh no. But fraudsters and con artists are A OK right?

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “….Are you surprised? Surely this is the way the media always react when something of the Norris case happens?…..”

    Pip there are times when your naivety is exasperating and at other times it is quite simply endearing and one is reluctant to disillusion such a disarming innocence.

    Do you know who the ‘Establishment’ in this country are ? Do you know what the term ‘insiders’ really mean ? etc, etc, & etc again !

    I was one of those ‘insiders’ for a large part of my life and still have access to ‘insider’ circles but as I am no longer a player, unlike say Mick for example who lives, breaths and sleeps it as I once did, it only interests me these days as a matter of intellectual curiosity as to what is happening. For those involved, circles of mutual dependency and co-operation are build up, lines are crossed, personal friendships forged, other respective family members become involved.

    There are things that I learned in certain situations about other ‘insiders’ politicians, journalists senior civil servants etc. that could cause grave embarrasment and difficulties for political opponents, yet I would not dream of ‘using’ this in a month of sundays!

    As a non drinker I tend to have a better recall than most others taking part in a booze flowing, hair down, indiscrete craic occasion. To this day I have held the trust of political and journalist friends precisely because I did not break that trust to the extent that if I was pressured by my own people, for me it would simply have been a resigning issue.

    I did not make the rules, they were there long before me and will be there long after I have left this mortal coil. This week for example I had a half hour frank private conversation with a Government Minister and not the ‘yes minister’ type of exchange either. He knew he could do this without reading it on a newspaper a day or two later.

    This week also I was in telephone conversation with the head of a local government section regarding a matter in which I am negotiating on behalf of a group in conflict with this particular department. We had a face to face earlier in the week and a short way into the phone conversation he asked me if we could ‘go off the record’ I agreed.

    In the course of the exchange that followed I learned a few things that would be legally devastating against him as he did likewise about my party but if there are Superior Court Proceedings, neither of us will make use of or cite what was said in that conversation. Neither did he have any concern that I may be taping his revealations or me that he was doing likewise. Our exchanges in these privilliged conditions moved the situation considerably forward towards a solution in a way not possible in a half dozen lengthy, formal, ‘on the record’ meetings..

    That Pip is how the real world works in Ireland and in most of the Anglo / White inspired culture in the Western World.

  • pippakin

    WITD

    You don’t get it do you, so eager are you to blame anyone but Norris. He was exposed to suit an agenda? No! Never!

    If such letters were written by others then it was the duty of the MSM to report it at the time, blame them for the slimy little world they lived in, don’t shoot the messenger when, for whatever reason, he delivers the truth.

    MV

    Exasperated are you? Laddie I could give lessons on exasperation… I’m not naive. If something is true then I don’t care who tells it and nor should you. In fact for someone who is always droning on about his non stop work for children, that is when you weren’t fighting the brits, sorting out the Gards in Donegal, the legal system in Dublin and rowing the boat, etc. etc. I’m not a bit surprised to find you think the messenger and the motive are more important than the message. What you are in effect saying is that you too have guarded the secrets of the establishment for years.

    I’m as anti the Israeli government as anyone but if Norris was too thick to know when to be outspoken and when to keep shtum then that is another reason he would be unacceptable as President and its not a good reason for blaming the Israelis.

    Let me spell it out for slow learners: I DON’T CARE WHO DELIVERED THE MESSAGE OR WHY. THE IMPORTANT THING IS IRELAND GOT THE MESSAGE AND DEALT WITH THE MATTER.

    This is classic whataboutery and you two can shove it. Norris did what he was accused of that is game set and match to his accusers.

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    ” For those involved, circles of mutual dependency and co-operation are build up, lines are crossed, personal friendships forged, other respective family members become involved.”

    The above is absolutely true, sadly when the Free state was established the Irish aped the English ruling class by using this methodology and continue to do so till this day.

    I will give you an example of just how destructive this type of ‘networking’ is. I will use an English example so hopefully Mick F will not get into to much of a lather. When the Murdoch muck hit the fan, David Cameron with the appointment of ‘justice’ Leveson was able to appoint a Murdoch insider to ‘inquire’ into the matter.

    Think this through, for Leveson to genuinely expose the whole rotten bunch, whether senior politicians, media hacks or members of the police and judiciary, ect, Leveson would have to put himself in the frame as he to took hospitality from the Murdochs and he will not go there.

    The whole point about these elites, whether local or national, is they kid themselves they are not doing anything wrong, due to their wealth or high position, they think they have earned the right to act as a corrupt human cartel. It is only when the muck hits the fan we get to see the dirty under belly they wade in.

    But after the initial brouhaha, life usually goes on much as before. The only way this type of thing will be stopped is if we hack the whole bloody lot of them down.

  • Alias

    It might be hard for Ireland’s self-important ‘protesters’ to accept but the reality is that Israel doesn’t regard them with even a fraction of the importance with which they regard themselves. They, of course, imagine that they are so important that Israel dedicates teams of highly trained covert operatives to sabotage boats and campaigns, et al.

    In reality, the embassy has one Irish person, Dermot Muleady, who is employed as a press officer and that’s the full extent of its interest in countering the rabid anti-Israeli propaganda from these muppets.

    Ireland is seen as a running joke by the Israeli diplomatic service in the same way that British ministers used to regard a posting to NI – as a punishment for some transgression. They aren’t punished for long, and they focus on business relations rather than the lost cause of educating misinformed Irish.

  • Munsterview

    Mickhall : as to my observation that …..

    “…. For those involved, circles of mutual dependency and co-operation are build up, lines are crossed, personal friendships forged, other respective family members become involved.”…..

    I never claimed that this was right or an appropriate way to conduct affairs in an ideal or open democracy. I had a task to do to get the Republican Message out there and used the most effective way open to me to do so. I did not set up the system, I used the system that was already there.

    When the judgement of the F. V The Legal Aid Board came in, I did a quick tour of Media facilities to get the story out there. I remember going to one ‘radio-Ga Ga’ pop station in particular and attempting to get somebody in News that I could talk to.

    The two ‘Page 3′ type ‘Dolly Birds’ on the desk and obviously there more for what was filling their bras rather than what was between their ears, took turns going back to the Ad min section and returning to fob me off with ever increasingly bizarre, and to themselves no doubt, very funny giggled accounts of staff occupied with showing ‘Japanese Investors’ over the premises etc
    .
    I have never forgotten their inane idiocy and they sadly are not unique in the Media Industry !

    Here was a Legal Case that was going to effect the lifes of over 500,000 women in coming decades and this was the the ‘Dolly Bird’ brainless response. Is this the media froth serious people are expected to waste time with ?

    As John B Kean succinctly observed in one of his plays “…..to get to the seeds of the apple you must go to the core…..”

    In those days if I wanted a story carried, I also had another two or three other good ‘news stories’ per se also to trade in return ‘ for the favor ‘ If I were in Fianna Failed those days that the favor would be repaid with tickets for a golfing weekend etc and anybody who deny that this is the current process also do not have too much credibility in my book ! (That is could be why the Catholic PR people had trouble placing stories, not too many journalist wanted tickets for Lough Derg I would imagine ? )

    To give but one example when the stories about ‘Offshore Accounts’ were floating around I was having serious problems with a major financial Institution who would had misplaced a significant sum of a clients money. After one last effort at resolution was greeted by folded arms and “so sue us” response, I went to a small off shore investor that also was having problems with the same institution.

    I then contacted a National Newspaper reporter that I had a good working relationship with and brought the ‘offshore client to Dublin with his papers’. I contacted the PR people for the financial institution concerned, gave him my name and telephone no. Did not tell them for what, just said that they would want to speak to me after the weekend.

    The Offshore Account story broke on one of The Sunday quality papers, it quickly spread to the other media. Monday morning I got a call, would I agree to an immediate ‘cessation of hostilities’ ? in return for X, Y & Z for my client ? Yes indeed I would, a regional manager with authority to act next contacted me. We had ‘done business’ before in similar circumstances and had each others trust.

    Our opening conversations in the presence of the unfortunate branch manager were about our respective families, children’s school progress etc. and then the horse trading. Not much there either every thing was agreed in minutes and sealed with a handshake ! My client got what they were entitled to and an additional goodwill payment for hassel caused.

    The local branch manager that had proven to be aggogant, intransigent and had made a bad judgement call. This person was now toast and ‘resigned’ shortly afterwards. To Pip this is but another example of ‘blowing my own trumpet’, but the more aware of you will recognize it as a prime example of how things are done in ‘insider’ power circles’. It is intended as educational and insightful as I am in my Elder Statesman reminiscing mood..

    I have continually brought up the situation here in slugger of Security Correspondents regularly wined and dined and in the trall of the Garda Commissioner and HQ Garda management. Garda control is so absolute of these ‘Security Correspondents’ that as verified by the former editor of the Sunday Tribune in an open Journalist Seminar at Limerick University all Irish newspapers must now use a reporter other than a Security Correspondent to break a story adverse to the Gardai!

    Who cares ? To gauge from the responses generated here in Slugger any time I raised this issue nobody gives a damm and so it all continues.

  • wee buns

    MV
    People do care. Please check out the helpline at Transparency Ireland:
    https://transparency.ie/helpline

    On Norrisgate: what is interesting is that given that the presidential race is ALL about personality and nothing to do with policy: why has it taken so long for this letter to be uncovered?
    It was written in the 90s ffs.

  • Munsterview

    We Buns : “….why has it taken so long for letter to be uncovered?…..”

    Timing my dear, all about timing !

    Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. It was not just about ‘Nobbling Norris’ to derail his attempt to get the Irish Presidency. The people behind the letter release had a few scores to settle, they wanted him floating high without floating off.

    The higher David’s expectations and hopes were and the more money he had spend, the harder the crash when his balloon was punctured, the more mental anguish caused to him personally and the bigger hole in his bank balance !

    Then there is his personal credibility in the post-presidential election phase. Oh Yes there will be a lot of kind words and sympathy expressed for David from the body politic and the media but the stark, brutal facts are that he is a politically spent force without real credibility and already yesterdays news.

    David has been a thorn in the side of the Isralie Establishment for many a long year, he will no longer be a threat to be taken seriously, just perhaps at worst a little annoyance from time to time !

    All in all a bloody good operation for Mossad. A stark warning to other would be ‘Enemies of Israel, European Politicians’ that they better squeaky clean or they too can crash like Norris. The Israeli Intel boys & gals had every reason to pop the Champaign corks on this one !

    For the record, if you missed it, I have said that I did not believe that Norris was a suitable person for President and that I was politically opposed to his candidacy.

  • wee buns

    MV ….OK maybe.
    But is that not to also avoid the question of why our press did not pick it up?

  • pippakin

    “David Norris has been a thorn in the side of the Israeli establishment for many a long year.”

    Er, how can I put this? David Norris is hardly a household name in his own household much less beyond this island! I can just see the Israelis hanging on his every word in fear and trepidation…

  • Munsterview

    Wee Buns : “….MV ….OK maybe.
    But is that not to also avoid the question of why our press did not pick it up?….”

    Back to the infamous insider consensus again : the number of political corrs are limited to begin with and their cosy insider status impose even more limitations. Remember Minister Ray Burke : the stories about him were knocking around for years even to the extent that his last Governmental appointment was touch and go.

    Remember Michael O’Kennedys outburst of support about “a decent man forced out of politics” Who asked him to explain himself even when Burke received a court conviction and was jailed?

    In foregoing posts I have given some examples of how the press actually work as distinct from how it is supposed to work. There was a certain media priest popping up with a perfect sound bite for every occasion and he was quite the critic on church cover up of sexual abuse. He was also quite the little darling of one particular newspaper.

    I presented the this newspaper’s religious correspondent with facts regarding sexual abuse involving a close relative of this priest where a child had not only been abused, he had also been farmed out as a child prostitute. The priest disputed detail but not the broad sweep of the facts. His credibility shot, he stopped his letters to the editor nonsense and his occasional articles for that particular paper.

    Do you think that the Religious Affairs correspondent revealed this priests hyprocicy ? The system is a closed shop : if one is down and out as with Bertie ( Remember him anyone) it is open season but otherwise it is very much the gun broken over the arm and the cartridges in the pocket.

    Pip : your remarks but yet again show your lack of appreciation or insight of the real world !

  • pippakin

    MV

    Sure, and the Gards, MI6 and Mossad are fighting over the best bush outside your window….

  • Munsterview

    Pip : to those who know, no reasons are necessary, to those who do not, no explanations will suffice!

    You have made more than a little noise here about your radicalism. Have you ever been arrested at a demo for some cause you were supporting ?

    Have you ever spend a night in a police cell ?

    Have you a court conviction imposed as result of your political activities ?

    Or you another of these supposedly concerned citizens and life long protesters without even a parking ticket to your name ?

    And since you brought the matter up, whatever of having MI5 et al outside my window I would imagine that you are safe enough on that score !

  • pippakin

    MV

    A long, long time ago I went on one or two peace marches.

    “And since you brought the matter up, whatever of having MI5 et al outside my window I would imagine that you are safe enough on that score !”

    From MI5 et al? I’m pleased to confirm that they have no interest in me, my phone or my laptop. Of course I could get jumpy and think the sheep in the next field is a shinner, after all if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

  • Munsterview

    Night Pip!

  • pippakin

    MV

    Nite, nite, don’t let the bed bugs bite !

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    Pip

    You are a trusting soul for as you post regularly here, you almost certainly would have been of interest to Mi5, if only a passing interested. I remember years ago being told by what I considered to be an authoritative source, that the local special branch monitor the letters pages of all local papers, how ridiculous and pointless was that?.

    These days, with the technology available it is much easer for the state to spy on the population. Think about the enormous sum of money UK intel receives from the tax payer, and you get an idea of what the secret state is up to.

    Like you I presume, as I do not break the law, or my own moral code, I give little thought to these creatures, although I am conscious of the fact they are lurking out there, it does not keep me awake at night, as I remember the UK spooks got it wrong over some of the most important events, such as the invasion of the Falklands, bin Laden, WMDs, Gaddafi would flee at the first whiff of cordite, and the Murdoch clans corrupt embrace of the British establisment.

    That SIS deemed the British miners as ‘the enemy within’ and acted accordingly during the great strike of 1984, resulted in the destruction of the UK coal mining industry despite it having coal deposits which could have driven our economy for 300 years just about says it all..

    Acting to protect the national interest my arse.

  • pippakin

    Mick Hall

    To deal with the last first: I completely agree with your opinions regarding the print and miners unions, what happened during that time was one of the greatest and almost ignored abuses of power.

    I’m not trusting or naive. If the security forces of whatever abbreviation were ever interested in me such interest would have been very short lived. Its important to keep a sense of proportion and frankly there are bigger fish to fry than me! or even, dare I say it, most of the commenters on most blogs. .

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    Pippakin

    I do not believe you are naive and I see nothing wrong in having trust in others, within reason. The problem with this type of thinking is most of us who are engaged in democratic intercourse believe like you, there are bigger fish to fry than us and it takes a leap of faith to believe we might be targeted by State agencies.

    Without being over dramatic this was the type of thought process that allowed the Nazi’s to round up countless ordinary members of the SPD and trade unions after Hitler gained power. The previous administrations secret service had kept records of progressive activists, thus the Gestapo did not even have to update the files.

    Once again we live in changing times and who knows whose hand may end up on the levers of power. The fact is, UK intel has an enormous data base of ‘suspect citizens’ and it is high time we ordinary folk said enough. At the very least it is imperative we understand what we are dealing with.

    I remember once hearing a former army intel officer say, ” I could tell you what colour settee any west Belfast resident has.” This may have been an idle boast, then again.

    As the saying goes, these people have not gone away.

    Take care

    Mick

  • Munsterview

    Mickhall : a realistic assessment but one that requires a certain level of political literacy and awareness to appreciate. Nuff said there!

    At one stage in the early seventies I was with an English Insurance company and they were reasonably priced for my insurance and very accommodating regarding putting on additional vehicles, towing trailers, covering goods carried for commercial purposed etc, as I sometimes had fairly expensive mechanical engineering items in the car.

    One holiday period I called to the office, they were short staffed and while my file was brought to the counter, the assistant could not deal with me, but I was asked to remain behind as another assistant had gone out early was due back inside twenty minutes. I was left with my times in the lobby and my file on the counter just inside the hatch.

    One thing that I always wondered about was that my file seemed quite bulky. Once on my on, I reached through the hatch and retrieved my file. Every mention of me on the press for trade union activity, cultural activity or political activity was there, cut from newspapers with a record of the news paper and context. I worked in mechanical engineering installation work in factories on short contracts for different firms at that period as it suited my political lifestyle.

    The file also had details of some family, friends, relatives and associates. One couple of sheets had a sequential work record with notes of the missing weeks. I put back the file transacted my business and left. I went straight to the late owner of Mercier press, who was an ex-Irish Defense Forces Captain and a man who took a keen interest in Brit Intel matters in Ireland.

    I was told by Cpt Feehan that this was standard practice, that all British Insurance Companies in Ireland de facto acted as Intel Collecting Agencies for the various ‘M’s as indeed they apparently did world wide. So incidently did all British financial instutions and commercial operations world wide. If they could be that efficient and thorough back then, just what can they do now ?

    Thank goodness for the net : a days google search in COIN related matters ( Counter Insurgency…… abbreviated first to CO’IN and now normally just written as plain COIN ) and a patient shifting of the loads of chaff but in there to protect the grain, will give a startling insight into just what they can do. Other insider publications such as ‘Small Wars Journal’ and ‘Nexus’ magazine available through Easons ( some free browsing and download articles also available on net) also give useful information as to what is happening on these areas.

    If ‘Reader’ would like to be of assistance he could also I dare say supply some very interesting suggested sites in this whole area. In this arena there are those like your good self that can appreciate what is happening, those who as result of insights like this who are prepared to become aware and learn and of course those who as in other spheres of life cannot be told anything while still never the less prepared to comment on everything in a plausible and apparently authoritative way!

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    munsterview

    Fascinating stuff, good man.

  • pippakin

    “a realistic assessment but one that requires a certain level of political literacy and awareness to appreciate. Nuff said there!”

    Or just an overweening sense of their own importance!

    Enough of your nonsense. You offer no proof you just blame everything on the usual suspects. I could blame every breakdown my broadband suffers on spooks but excuse me if I think it makes more sense and is far more likely to be caused by the weather, the mountains and a lap top that’s seen better days.

    If you were involved with the IRA then that would account for the security, Irish and British, interest in you and no doubt they would make sure they used all available resources.

    Would you rather have been able to give a knowing nod, wink and smile and say in your expert and sage opinion Mr Norris was not suitable material, whilst the rest of us scratched around for whatever information the MSM deigned to report? I would rather the truth came out and everyone decide for themselves as they clearly have.

    The failure of the print media to report on Mr Norris letter and any others other politicians may have written is not down to the security services. Its down to cosy little world those people built for themselves.

  • Munsterview

    Michall : “….I remember once hearing a former army intel officer say, ” I could tell you what color settee any west Belfast resident has.” This may have been an idle boast, then again……”

    I wish it was Mickhall but far, very far from it indeed. There are many people out there who could make a useful contribution to this debate but there is also a mentality that ‘peace’ is just what happens between campaigns in the wider sphere while they are assessing the last campaign and preparing for the next one.

    They also realize that the enemy is doing exactly the same thing and therefore, in these circumstances no serious operative will put anything into the public arena that could be of any benefit to enemy. This is the way their people and their ‘peoples people’ have done business for generations.

    A certain experienced seaman ( and I am not referring to Ferris ) who helmed a vessel bringing in certain items followed the same channels and took the same costal markers as his own great grandfather had used to pilot in a Fenian Gun Running vessel.

    However back to your first reference : at one period in the North,in a certain area the Brits were faced with a particular resourceful and effective IRA commander in the ‘Richard Behalf’ mould who was running rings around them because he did things differently. He lived in a good ares, dressed well and drove a flash car. I had been in his house on more than a few occasions.

    On first glance, to judge by the furnishings, he lived very well indeed, well above his means. However the truth was far different. His wife’s uncle worked in a warehouse where bomb damaged goods were returned from the major stores. One armchair had to stay in a specific place, the carpet was very expensive but had a large whole under the chair, the couch also ‘top of the line’ had the back burned off and had to stay against the wall. There was a makeshift taped cardboard back on the large TV etc.

    The same with everything right through out the house while fitted out as from a VIP magazine section, almost every single top of the line and once expensive item had been bought as salvage for the proverbial song by the family when ever the uncle got hands on anything they wanted.

    A large IRA Intel intercept operation was accidentally rumbled, this man was identified and arrested. His home was searched, a quality Sunday News paper ( I need to phase this carefully in deference to Mick and potential libel) ‘whose editorial sympathies ran parallel to M I5 interests’ ran a large article showing how ‘The Commanders Lived’ ect while contrasting this to the way the ghetto republican ‘foot soldiers lived’

    Of Course there was no mention of the actual damage to the goods, just reference to the stores that were selling these items and what they cost in gushing terms that would have done credit to a Country Life special on a Big House. His own fell for it hook, line and sinker, he was immediately ‘stood down’ in the in captivity and had to face prolonged grilling on ‘the facts’ as supplied by Brit Intel to the newspaper concerned.

    It was one sweet operation from a Brit point of view and to this day I still hear the newspaper descriptions of this man’s house given as an example of ‘where things went wrong with the Revolution’ The ‘facts’ they placed have become the popular record for the general, local Republican Community. Brit Intel did not have to concern themselves with this particular guy again, his credibility was to risk a bad pun, was shot ! Like all intelligent people faced with such closed minds and rank stupidity from his own side, he just stepped back and left them to it.

    This is but one of the many operations of where the Brits were able to run a COIN operation beneath the public level of awareness and with sufficient sophistication to ‘sell a pig in a poke’ to what should have been experienced and knowledgeable Republicans. The memoir when it comes will have a few more interesting examples !

    To return to your quoted comment, the Brits did indeed, even back then, note the furniture quality and color in houses as they did the location of it within the houses and any unusual pieces nor house characteristics. This data was build up for all working class and other areas of the North and indeed South where possible ( Ins companies, house contents descriptions etc). A an IRA vol taken to and from a location blindfolded could later when arrested, be quizzeded about the furniture and other house detail that the Brit Intel IO ccould then check against their records to id the ‘safe house’ used.

    There were very specific reasons for their apparent pedantic, detailed, methodology !

    If this was standard practice almost four decades ago back in the pencils and paper clips era, just how sophistated and thorough are their Intel gathering operations these days ? In the ‘US’ popular ‘Geek’ magazines are carring accounts of ‘moths’ and ‘dragonflies’ minature flying robots that can relay back sound and video. And the Brit Boffins do not have access to this technology ?

    Yeah right!

    PS, Pip next time you are taking a shower or bath make sure there are no flies around…… you never know where you where you could appear afterwards!

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “….If you were involved with the IRA then that would account for the security, Irish and British, interest in you and no doubt they would make sure they used all available resources…..”

    So….o. the same old story ! We are supposed to play by their rules in their prepared field while they operate a ‘no rules apply’ methodology to us ?

    Radical my A*** ! Just like when most members of the Alliance Party are pushed off the fence they fall on the Unionist side, when push comes to shove most Southern ‘Liberals’ and ‘Radicals’ I know will join the other finger wagging Establishmentarians.

    That is why Greek nurses, doctors and teachers etc are in the streets trowing petrol bombs and fighting for their rights while our lot are phoning Joe Duffy ( or content to moan on a site like slugger) ! Not surprising that there is another singeing budget coming rattling down the track from Noonan (of blood transfusion victim ‘harassment on their death bed infamy’ ) and co, what the hell do they have to fear from the general public on past experience and present indications ?

    Bugger all it would appear ! And then to cap it all probably Gabo for President. That is likely to shake up the establishment !

    Little wonder then that the mass of the Irish People are but a cause of contempt for our own Ruling Class and a laughing stock for the International, serious protesting Continental Left who are fighting for and holding the line with real protest and fight !

  • pippakin

    MV

    I zap any fly’s that get into my house and would take a pretty dim view of anyone who trespassed!

    You seem to think the most important thing is a conspiracy theory about the blogger and Israeli spooks. I think that’s irrelevant. I don’t care where the information came from. The important thing is Mr Norris was exposed as unsuitable before being selected as a candidate or even elected as President.

    The Irish MSM have been caught keeping the establishments secrets. I hope the lesson is learned, hope that is not believe that it has.

  • Who Is That Dog

    Pip “If such letters were written by others then it was the duty of the MSM to report it at the time, blame them for the slimy little world they lived in, don’t shoot the messenger when, for whatever reason, he delivers the truth.”

    What truth? Most of the press reported it inaccurately and “John Connolly” intentionally shaped his findings to exclude the fact that the sentence was only 3 months on Nawi and that the case was highly flawed (Which the Irish Times DID report) where the victim in question even admitted he lied about his age in court. I bloody well will shoot the messenger if the telegram if he brought deliberately misleading information.

  • pippakin

    Who is that dog

    Good for you! and then you can stop and ask yourself if the fall of Norris was about that case or support for pederasty. Its more than an individual case, when the gossip about Trinity surfaced I maintained my support for Norris but the letter confirms the rumours and that for me is what its about.

    To find that a blogger has an agenda or that he/she supports Hamas, Mossad or Sinn Fein and slants his blogs around that support is not surprising or news. All this conspiracy guff is by the way. Its not what the news was about its an attempt to shift the direction.

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “….All this conspiracy guff is by the way. Its not what the news was about its an attempt to shift the direction……”

    Since I have repeatedly stated that I did not support and was indeed politically opposed David’s candidacy for Presidency and also that I did not believe that he was a suitable person to be President of Ireland I can challenge your ‘conspiracy guff’ contentions.

    There is every right and indeed need to examine and see who was pulling the strings and manipulating the situation and de facto deciding that X, Y or Z would not be allowed to to run for public office.

    I would also respectfully suggest that if any external Government, Agency or Individual attempted to interfere as blatantly in Israeli internal affairs and dictate to them as to who they could not have as candidates for public office, there would be outburst of outrage and rightly so, from all sectors of Israeli society.

    This instance of blatant interference in Irish domestic politics caused by an apparent planned, systematic operation by external State Agency, too deserves to be exposed and investigated.

    If for instance David Cameron were to openly object to a potential candidate running and say that such a person was not in the UK ‘best interests’ or if MI6 was exposed as running an operation to discredit such a candidate, then there would also be an outcry here and rightly so.

    Then again there is always one International set of Rules for Israel and another that the rest of the ‘Community Of Nations’ are expected to observe. Much like ‘Alias’ in slugger posting apologist propaganda for Israel while ‘carded’ and apparently banned for personal attack and the use of insulting nomenclature against another poster.

  • pippakin

    MV

    No outside agency decided who would or would not run for office here, that’s a conspiracy too far! Information became available, from whatever source, that confirmed a subject that was already being debated. Since the candidates have not yet been chosen never mind elected its for Mr Norris to decide if he stands a snowflake in hells chance of being elected. Having withdrawn his candidacy I assume his decision is made.

    I’m not defending the Israeli government or even the blogger I’m saying that in this instance I consider it irrelevant. You have already said you thought Mr Norris was unsuitable so what is your problem exactly?

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “………….so what is your problem exactly?…….”

    To those who have a political appreciation and concern of the issues involved, it is unnecessary to spell out reasons, to those who do not, no explanations will suffice !

    “…Information became available, from whatever source….”

    Quite a few politically aware people have come to their own conclusions as to what that source is and that has become an issue. May be OK on your book but not in those of a considerable number of others !

  • pippakin

    MV

    You appear to be seriously suggesting that it was alright for you and the chosen few to know Norris views but not alright for ‘ordinary’ people to know unless one of your chosen few told them. You go further and concoct a conspiracy that the Israelis have denied the Irish people the right to choose their own leader and that’s nonsense. If Norris wants to run let him.

    I don’t know what world you live in you create enemies where none exist, Alias supports Israel but he is clearly an Irish patriot. The two are not incompatible! Maskey may not have had any time for you or SF but he too was an Irish republican, not the spy you in your strange meanderings imagine, and while I’m on the subject of Maskey you did not chase him off. His own trolling did that! If you have no answer: don’t answer, but desist with the smug, superior abuse and play the fecking ball!

  • Munsterview

    Pip : yet again to those who know, no reasons are necessary, to those who do not, no explanations will suffice.

    I have long ago despaired of getting anything of the real world through to you but there readers who may be prepared to note and learn, especially the younger ones, so here we go yet again with a lengthy illustration o State power use and abuse !

    In the intense period after Harry Wheelan was appointed from Attorney General to the Superior Courts as President of High Court and while I was attempting to get a newspaper, any news paper to run the story that I had discussed a child sex abuse case with him that he did not act on, every where I went I had a Special Branch car behind me bumper to bumper and once it became evident the direction I was taking, another before with eight people on the ground and goodness knows how many behind the scenes attempting intimidation.

    Once I left the car I was followed toe to heel into filling stations, hotels etc where they stood inches from the telephone boots that I was using. Any staff that intervened got a ‘flash of a badge’ and told that they ‘were investigating serious crime’ I immediately became the ‘criminal suspect’ and grew horns and a tail as far as the average service person was concerned.

    On one occasion at 10.30 PM after being bumped yet again when stopped at traffic lights coming through a certain town, I did the unexpected stopped at the local police station, produced a fax from a newspaper and said that I wanted to make an urgent call. The guard on duty obliged, I then relayed to the Editor what happened and passed the phone over to the guard to speak to her.

    The Special Branch parked before and behind had directional mikes on the window and quickly ‘burned rubber’ out of there before the garda on duty could go outside and ask them who they were as requested by the newspaper editor.

    They were back the following morning and pissed off as I had not ‘played the game’ the night before when I phoned the editor through a cop station and put everything on record.

    When I came out from my next hotel stop I had two flat tyres that had been perfectly inflated for the previous sixty miles driving and when I was going in fifteen minutes earlier. The carload of Special Branch were parked three or four car lengths away hugely enjoying themselves and giving the ‘fingers sign’

    I was later that week ‘boxed in and barracked’ by six of them closed around me in a public forecourt asking me as to who I thought I was to think that I could get a President Of The High Court sacked etc and threatening to ‘send me down for years on a planted arms charge’ as they attempted to do with the election agent of Martin Ferris, James Sheehan.

    Pip people like me who were political activists probably had to endure more political harassment from confronted State Power before noon on an average politically active day than people like you did in a whole lifetime. My partner who is of Irish emigrant Parentage and who was then living in London was taken from a police cell and rushed to a labor ward after arrest at a ‘Troops Out Of Ireland’ demonstration.

    She endured her first medical examination examination with one hand handcuffed to the bed as while obviously in labour pains and going nowhere, the police refused to leave the room without handcuffing her to the bed despite the attending doctor’s protest. She was delivered some hours later.

    Hundred, indeed thousands on this Island Pip can give insights like that from direct experience of the real political activist world and hardly surprising then that they just sigh and move on without bothering replying to statements from those who express opinions with complete certainty yet, who obviously do not have a clue of how the real power world operates.

    I have paid a price in my life for attempting to expose the corruption that exists in Irish society including a quarter century ban on Radio and TV that extended to my artistic life also. Most of my significant literary awards came in the last decade when I was over fifty years of age because I was de facto blacklisted from all Government Grant Aided Festivals prior to Michael D abolishing The Ban.

    If I got any award and a recognition that gave a platform then the awarding Festival Committee could kiss their grant goodbye the following and subsequent years. That was reality then and show me just who in the Literary World took a principle stand on this issue or spoke out against this extended censorship back then or who now is prepared to expose what went on ?

    Incidently I am not looking for a shoulder to cry on for all of this : I was made well aware of of the prices I would have to pay by the elder generation of revolutionaries just as I do myself these days with young political activists.

    I can stand proud in any public forum discussing corruption nowdays and say I opposed all of this back then and this is some of the price I paid for it. Can you ?

    You then speak of an enclosed ‘insider sphere’, Pip only those who have ‘walked the walk’ in in wielding power or in opposing the abuse of this power know the reality of these things. Every one else like your good self, to the greater or lesser extent, are just observers and commentators on a sphere of activity that in most instances they know little about !

  • pippakin

    MV

    If you consider yourself an activist and were involved with paramilitaries as you say you were then what happened to you was a part of that. In many ways the IRA represent a greater threat to the south then ever the British could.

    You seem to think that disagreeing with you on a particular subject implies ignorance of that subject, that’s arrogant nonsense.

    This is about Norris not me. I should not have to produce examples of my experiences to prove my point, and nor do you! I simply ask that you refrain from continually assuming I’m ignorant of the subject and all things political, or if its someone else that they are anti Ireland.

    The Norris case is very straight forward the subject had been debated for weeks and he appeared to be getting away with it, but since the evidence was out there he must have known it was a huge risk. The proof of the letter and the poor judgement it showed was all that was needed to derail his candidacy. The Israelis didn’t write the letter he did.

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “…involved with paramilitaries as you say you were…..”

    Can you point to one post where I stated that I was a member of a paramilitary organization. I have said that I was a member of the Republican Movement and that I held various offices in the Sinn Fein Organization over the years.

    Any inferences you draw from that are entirely your own and without confirmation on my part !

    To stand your Norris arguments on their head, do it mean if I was that I had no right to protest the appiointment of Harry Wheelan as President of the High Court for the reasons given and move ‘hell and high water’ to bring him down or that the Special Branch were right to attempt to keep him there once appointed ?

  • pippakin

    MV

    According to your own previous comments you were of interest to the police of Ireland and the UK. I think you also said you went on hunger and thirst strike.

    You were entitled to go for Harry Wheelan and anybody else using all methods within the law, and that btw includes the ability to release the content of any letter he or others may have written which were in the public domain.

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “….According to your own previous comments you were of interest to the police of Ireland and the UK. I think you also said you went on hunger and thirst strike……”

    And all of this is supposed to prove just what ?

    My goodness at this rate no one is safe, you will even be claiming that Gerry Adams also was in the IRA !

  • pippakin

    MV

    My point is if you bring yourself to police as connected to terrorism then you can expect their interest to be considerable and on going. It has btw nothing to do with David Norris.

    I’ve had enough of this its not a pissing contest between juveniles.

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “…. if you bring yourself to police as connected to terrorism…”

    I presume that you meant….” if you bring yourself to police ‘attention’ as connected to terrorism…..”

    You have my solemn assurance that I have tried to spend most of my life doing the direct opposite in fact !

    The police however work on the assumption that everyone is a ‘suspect to be ruled out’ and if a person is not the type to ‘kiss establishment ass’ and go ‘yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir’ they are very much of interest to the police.

    Joe Higgins TD and ex MEP has condemned the use of violence for political ends his whole life and he is fully committed to democratic politics, yet I would be very surprised indeed if his file in Garda HQ is not of such a size that it could be stood on to clean the ceilings !

    Coming ‘ to the attention of the police ‘ is very easily accomplished these days. One strident angry letter to a newspaper railing against political corruption, I have been told on what I believe is good authority, is enough to originate and activate a garda file.

  • pippakin

    MV

    I totally believe you!

    I’m sorry about my last comment I saw something elsewhere that annoyed me and took it out on you. I know people get on police files for all sorts of reasons but that has little to do with the Norris case. His actions demonstrate poor judgement and not only in his support for his partner. Imo its a good thing it came out now instead of after selection or even being elected.

  • Munsterview

    Pip : “….His actions demonstrate poor judgement and not only in his support for his partner….”

    Agreed on that.

    Apologies accepted and this exchange on David Norris over unless something else turns up !

  • pippakin

    MV

    “this exchange on David Norris over unless something else turns up !”

    I really, really hope not. I may have been a bit rude about it but I have had enough of this one…