A view from the Protestant side of the peace walls… The mystery of exactly what kicked all this off, continues…
Northern Ireland’s peace process has been promoted as an international success story. The Republic’s Department of Foreign Affairs has its Conflict Resolution Unit, which aims to disseminate the ‘lessons’ of the Northern Ireland peace process. And some of the prominent players in our peace process have travelled abroad to other troubled spots to share their [...] read our review »
Which reminds me…. Platform for Change’s driving force Robin Wilson has produced a corrective to the notion that the lessons of the NI conflict are easily exportable. Like myself, Robin is associated with the Constitution Unit. He introduced his new book in a CU blog which I here reproduce. The water crisis in Northern Ireland [...] read our review »
Yes it is true the problem of violence in English history has not yet received the study it deserves, especially in the UK, but then I doubt few here will even wonder why the English seem so keen on bloodshed and abuse, much easier to look at the violence of the oppressed than question that.
If we are not murdering people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we are teaching our children to admire such crimes in a historical context. Is it any wonder our young men like nothing better than to go into town on a Saturday night and beat the shit out of each other.
Quincey,
I will try and elaborate a little bit as you have requested.
On Tuesday night (the second night of serious disorder), Short Strand saw an influx of between 80-150 people from outside of the area. It was clear from the outset that these were supporters of dissident organisations.
Sinn Fein had earlier blocked access to the grounds of St Matthews Chapel at Seaforde Street in an attempt to stop Nationalist youths becoming involved in direct confrontation with loyalists on Newtownards Road (as had happened on the Monday Night). This is why virtually all of the trouble on Tuesday night consisted of a direct battle between Loyalists and The PSNI on Newtownards Road. For the most part, Nationalists were kept well back by Republican stewards and community workers.
At one point, dissident outsiders tried to break through the corden at St Matthews Chapel entrance on Seaforde Street and were told by local residents in no uncertain terms where they could get off, so to speak…
Throughout the evening there were several direct confrontations between local residents who were trying to hold the peace and dissident youths. In one bizarre incident a large group of these outside dissident elements actually fell out with each other and a melee ensued.
Eventually as the night wore on, the message finally got across and the dissidents finally left the area in a variety of cars and some on foot across the Albert Bridge towards the City Centre.
Why do the great and the good look for all sorts of excuses for the violence, the Short Strand has been attacked by sectarian bigots since its inception. The reason for the attacks is simple, its pure unadulterated bigotry nothing else ! This bollox about attacks from the Short Strand area on Loyalists is a lie perpetrated to justify what has happened for century’s. Call it as it is and stop pussy footing around it !
Oh by the way, my monthly cheque from the peace dividend came this morning, Peter and Marty both rang to make sure I received it and to see if there is anything else I’d like and all because I live in the Strand eh !
Ah, we’re really getting through the usual phases (and phrases) at a rate of knots!
There is, of course, the simple official explanation:
Note, Mick Fealty @ 1:25 pm, a different “quality” paper.
Self-evidently, that’s not good enough. It’s an “official” version, and the PSNI are a poisoned source. [irony alert!] So we insert the weaselling “allegedly” at will [thank you, AntrimObserver @ 10:13 am].
So, it’s got to be suspect number 2, the loose cannon: “dissident elements who had come into the area” [keano @12:23 pm] or “a new and renegade local commander” [that Irish Times report]. “Events, dear boy, events” (provided it’s said in the proper tone) gets everyone off the hook: why am I thinking of Albert and the Lion:
That quickly segues into the line Anne Dawson is peddling for the Spectator [via the Slugger side-bar]:
Yep, here comes the Gee, Officer Krupke defence [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq28qCklEHc]. Take out your purses! Community centres and swimming-pools for all!
The one “explanation” that’s not ever, anywhere accepted — perish the thought! — is the natural badness one. It couldn’t possibly be we have become so attuned to resident evil and mayhem, we cannot give them up? —
However, slappymcgroundout @ 2:32 pm gives it a historical, and (to me) rather convincing run-out.
slappymac. “Few states committed the imprudenc[e] of continuing to celebrate a victory in a civil war: in ancient times both the Greeks and Romans had been careful never to tolerate it.”
Indeed. And we here in America don’t celebrate the Union’s victory over the Confederacy either. You all do the celebrating every summer. No surprise the result. What’s your word? Eejits?”
What’s that you celebrate on the 4th July? Winning a civil war? Native Americans and colonists on both sides? And let’s not forget the Alamo! As a proportion of the population, the active participation of Hispanic native and immigrant residents in the struggle for independence of Texas from Spain and Mexico was equal to or greater in specific battles than that of resident immigrants from the United States of the North. http://www.celebratetexas.org/index.html
Can someone help me out…
Why are people attacking home and property in the first place?
What is the point of all of this?
Just some craic for the teenagers?
Easy one Brian pure naked Sectarianism by the UVF .
Easy one Brian pure naked sectarianism from the Short Strand.
Joe didn’t the PSNI point the finger directly at the UVF ? Don’t you accept their findings ?
Assistant Chief Constable Alistair Finlay today confirmed that the UVF had started the violence.
“The UVF in East Belfast started this – there was no sense of anyone trying to finish that,” he said. “Their hands are upon this, whether by direction, by omission or commission.”
As I stated Brian this is an easy one to solve !
Brian asked why homes were being attacked ‘in the first place’.
It’s obvious to anyone who has been watching the news this week that Monday night was a result of previous (ie first) attacks from the Short Strand on protestant homes.
As a Short Strand resident perhaps you can explain why your young people feel the need to attack the homes of protestant pensioners in Duke St, Susan St and Pitt Park?
I could answer you if it was true, but as it’s not I’m at a loss.
Actually, I don’t care which side did it..I mean i more general terms.
When one group vandalizes or attacks home and property of the other in a close urban setting like this what do they get out of it? A thrill? A sense of pride? respect among the other hoodlums running about? A release from boredom?
There is nothing financial to be gained…
Malcolm @3:42
as ever sir, very astute and literary. a brief bright lighthouse flash round a circumference of darkness
i’ve no comment on the current on the current situation as i have been re-reading some H L Mencken. Malcolm, may i humbly refer you to the mans brief essay on the “Anglo-Saxon” (american appalachian variety). sez it all really
Brian, there is financial gain, and the East Belfast UVF have obviously got their reward, keep watching for the West Belfast/North Belfast brigades finding a small nationalist community to get stuck into so they too can get a share of the 1st ministers pot of peace gold.
wild turkey @ 9;20 pm:
Thank you,sir, for that kind steer.
As one who never missed a classic “Letter from America”, I fully appreciate that guidance.
Also as an Anglo-Irish-Dane (with good reasons to have it in for the Saxons) allow me to extract:
Ummm … yes, indeed. Fits nicely (proper sense) into this exchange.
slappy, the rights campaign was a smokescreen initiated by those in the early 60s who wanted to sweep away the conservative administrations in Belfast and Dublin.
You can go back to earlier rioting:
“The Belfast riots of 1857, 1864 and 1886, and the Londonderry riots of 1869 and 1883, were the subject of commissions of inquiry… the formula for tinkering with the police was tried after each successive outbreak, and always without the slightest effect. The Irish Constabulary, the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary were each in turn criticized for allowing riots to develop, and failing to contain them when they did develop. If they were unarmed, it was recommended that they should be armed; if they used their arms, it was recommended that they be disarmed.” .. A T Q Stewart
“What’s that you celebrate on the 4th July? Winning a civil war? Native Americans and colonists on both sides? And let’s not forget the Alamo! As a proportion of the population, the active participation of Hispanic native and immigrant residents in the struggle for independence of Texas from Spain and Mexico was equal to or greater in specific battles than that of resident immigrants from the United States of the North. http://www.celebratetexas.org/index.html”
The 4th of July? There aren’t any “loyalists” here. The descendants of those who were at the time are now as American in mind, body and spirit as rebellious to all things monarch is me.
Next, the Alamo. The other side probably joins the march seeing as how the Alamo was a defeat for those commemorating the Alamo. Re Texas independence, well, a far cry from your circumstance. And for the irony that you probably have never appreciated, the Orange that you celebrate isn’t local, it is the Orange worn by the Netherlands at the World Cup. King William of the House of Orange:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Orange-Nassau
Lastly, yours is a bank holiday. Not so in England, Scotland or Wales. And not even Her Majesty the Queen takes to her highway to celebrate her predecessor’s victory over themmuns…
“slappy, the rights campaign was a smokescreen initiated by those in the early 60s who wanted to sweep away the conservative administrations in Belfast and Dublin.”
From the relevant Cameron Report:
127. It will be convenient to deal first with the part which the sense of resentment and grievances unredressed played in the causation of these outbreaks. In order to assess this, it is necessary to consider whether and to what extent that sense was artificially engendered or stimulated, and also the degree to which it appears to have a substantial basis. The weight and extent of the evidence which was presented to us concerned with social and economic grievance or abuses of political power was such that we are compelled to conclude that they had substantial foundation in fact and were in a very real sense an immediate and operative cause of the demonstrations and consequent disorders after 5th October 1968. For this reason we took careful note of this very large body of evidence coming as it did from many individuals and organisations, and in a number of cases supported by statistics and documents themselves factual and not open to challenge on the score of their accuracy. At the same time we have to emphasise that it was not within our power or remit to conduct a detailed enquiry or form concluded judgments into or upon individual claims of discrimination or abuse of power by prevalent majorities in certain local authorities, and we seek to pass no judgment on the many specific and individual cases which were brought under our notice. These in so far as they relate to matters of genuine grievance would appear to fall appropriately within the jurisdiction of the proposed machinery for dealing with grievances against local authorities. We should record however that in the evidence presented to us from many responsible individuals and bodies, predominantly Protestant and non-Nationalist in purpose or outlook, there was a frank recognition that this widespread sense of grievance among Catholic people in Northern Ireland was justified in fact and called urgently for remedy.
***
134. The basic complaint in these areas is that the present electoral arrangements are weighted against non-Unionists. In the table on page 57 we show that the complaint is abundantly justified. In each of the areas with Unionist majorities on their council the majority was far greater than the adult population balance would justify. In Londonderry County Borough, Armagh Urban District, Omagh Urban District and County Fermanagh a Catholic majority in the population was converted into a large Unionist majority on the Councils. In the two Dungannon councils a very small Protestant majority held two-thirds or over of the seats on the councils. The most glaring case was Londonderry County Borough, where sixty per cent of the adult population was Catholic but where sixty per cent of the seats on the Corporation were held by Unionists. These results were achieved by the use, for example, of ward areas in which Unionist representatives were returned by small majorities, whereas non-Unionist representatives were returned by very large majorities. In Londonderry County Borough there was the following extraordinary situation in 1967:
North Ward:
Catholic Voters – 2,530
Other Voters – 3,946
Seats – 8 Unionists
Waterside Ward:
Catholic Voters – 1,852
Protestant Voters – 3,697
Seats – 4 Unionists
South Ward:
Catholic Voters – 10,047
Other Voters – 1,138
Seats – 8 Non-Unionists
Total:
Catholic Voters – 14,429
Other Voters – 8,871
Seats – 20 [12 Unionist, 8 Non-Unionist]
135. The Commission asked several Unionist public representatives from the areas concerned to explain these electoral imbalances. They did not contest the general basis of the figures, but argued that the original arrangement of ward boundaries and local government had been based on rateable values as well as population, that population changes had upset arrangements which were originally fair, and that it was quite a frequent democratic situation (e.g., in United Kingdom national politics) for a small majority – or even a minority – to be translated by the electoral system into a large majority.
136. These arguments however ignore the realities of the local situation in Northern Ireland. It is obvious that local politics in these areas have always turned on questions of sectarian control and influence. There has never been anything resembling electoral swings from Conservative to Labour and back again. This is an important consideration. The electoral arrangement of wards tends inevitably to sterotype political representation without prospect of a change in the balance of political power by the ‘swing of the pendulum’. The initial choice of ward areas effectively decided the permanent result of council elections. We note too that there have been times when other electoral systems and boundaries permitted non-Unionist majorities in Omagh Urban District, Armagh Urban District and Londonderry County Borough. Accordingly it is our view that the arguments used to justify the existing arrangements when they were introduced, mainly rationalised a determination to achieve and maintain Unionist electoral control. The Government’s dissolution of Londonderry Corporation, and its replacement by a nominated Commission, was thus the most tangible victory of the initial Civil Rights campaign.
***
138. We are satisfied that all these Unionist controlled councils have used and use their power to make appointments in a way which benefited Protestants. In the figures available for October 1968 only thirty per cent of Londonderry Corporations administrative, clerical and technical employees were Catholics. Out of the ten best-paid posts only one was held by a Catholic. In Dungannon Urban District none of the Council’s administrative, clerical and technical employees was a Catholic. In County Fermanagh no senior council posts (and relatively few others) were held by Catholics: this was rationalised by reference to ‘proven loyalty’ as a necessary test for local authority appointments. In that County, among about seventy-five drivers of school buses, at most seven were Catholics. This would appear to be a very clear case of sectarian and political discrimination. Armagh Urban District employed very few Catholics in its salaried posts, but did not appear to discriminate at lower levels. Omagh Urban District showed no clearcut pattern of discrimination, though we have seen what would appear to be undoubted evidence of employment discrimination by Tyrone County Council.
Lastly, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. The “radical overthrow” theory was bandied about here by the same lot who preached “Segregation Now, Segregation Forever!”. Most of us saw right through that and most see right through the late Mr. Stewart. So did the Cameron Report:
146. This catalogue of grievance deserves, in our judgment, to be seriously regarded in any analysis of the immediate causes of the disturbances. We disagree profoundly, having heard much evidence, with the view which professes to see agitation for civil rights as a mere pretext for other and more subversive activities.
Truly lastly, the humans you mean are those People’s Democracy folk. That would be Slugger’s hero Eamonn McCann. Why he’s Slugger’s hero simply escapes my comprehension. So we may be on common ground in his regard.
slappymcgroundout: The 4th of July? There aren’t any “loyalists” here. The descendants of those who were at the time are now as American in mind, body and spirit as rebellious to all things monarch is me.
Actually, the descendants are mostly Canadian, aren’t they?
Reader
Yeah and thanks for that (not)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udsg6OvKM-g&feature=player_embedded < Un-reported footage of Republican attacks on Loyalist homes….
Slappymac…orange is in holland gee never knew that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Orange
The 4th of July? There aren’t any “loyalists” here’.
The loyal orange order of America may disagree with that view pick a state…
http://loyalorangenyc.org/new-page.htm
‘Lastly, yours is a bank holiday. Not so in England, Scotland or Wales. And not even Her Majesty the Queen takes to her highway to celebrate her predecessor’s victory over themmuns…’
what’s your point is pat’s day a bank holiday anywhere else? As for ma am have you never heard of trooping the colour? quiet a few battles celebrated on that day….
“From the relevant Cameron Report:”
Slappy, the Cameron Report was written in 1969 whereas the Desmond Greaves pamphlet was written about 1963. When you read O Comain’s article you can probably appreciate why the Irish political establishment, the Catholic hierarchy and John Hume were more than a little concerned.
interesting link nevin, thank you.
It crosses my (as indicated by other denizens of this domain) very limited mind that Northern Ireland is remarkable, if not unique, for enthusiastically celebrating conquest by a foreign power.
The way I read it, the events of 1688-92 could be seen as the third-and-a-half of the Anglo-Dutch Wars — the one that the Dutch most decisively won. After all, the Dutch army kept London under “occupation” until 1690. It wasn’t just Willem III & II that we got. All his hangers-on (all those “English” gentry and nobility with Van- and Vander- in their surnames) came along for the ride — and stayed for the profits.
For the back-story, and a racy romp through seventeenth-century doings, there’s Professor Lisa Jardine’s Going Dutch.
MR
‘The way I read it,’ ‘ could be seen’
indeed many a spin can change ‘conquest’ to ‘adventure’…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/france/normandyandbrittany/8494443/Normandy-France-1100th-birthday-celebrations-and
Malcolm, if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you, can we declare Derry, for example, as New Amsterdam with all the fun that goes with it? LOL
Thank you, between the bridges @ 5:37 pm for that neat prompt. The link doesn’t work, but I got there all the same.
Michael White? In the Torygraph? My, my! Still, it has some of the White sparkle. This for those who need persuasion:
Yes, indeedy. And I did so enjoy Stephen Clarke’s book on how we have enjoyed the relationship ever since.
On those occasions when this English teacher found he had to “cover” a history class, he revelled in gentle subversion — the kind of thing we all eschew in Sluggerdom. Ahem!
Said English teacher found particular relish in noting that Guillaume-le-Bâtarde (to be fully enunciated, to the great delight of Year Seven) might have pressing reasons of personal esteem to become “William-the-Conqueror”. On a really good day, a parent might telephone to complain — cue the Sgt. Friday defence: “Just the facts, ma’am. Only the facts.”
It’s the same old, same old, give us money to line our pockets with and f*** the people and area (just like in south east Antrim) only this time it’s the UVF. Giving money to them will save them the hassle of drug dealing or extortion. Brian Feeney hit the nail on the head the other night on a UTV interview.
I have been reading this site annon now for quite some time and am very impressed with the articulation and genuine understanding form members from across the divide.
My reasoning for posting now is this. The Short Shand attack was planned that is undisputable now ask yourself a question the UVF in general have been under the microscope now for some time at the very highest level and it’s fair to say that they are not flavour of the month. So do you really think that they would carry this and bring more attention and bad press upon them for no good reason over than sectarian bigotry and for kicks (what purpose does this serve) – Well I can say with absolute certainly is that they didn’t. Not that I’m a member but I am fully aware of the build-up that caused this.
My mum lives at that interface and daily, weekly there is missiles being launched from the short strand matter of fact a ten year old girl was riding her bicycle recently and was struck on the head by a brick.
Im not going to insult anyone’s intelligence here and say there’s been no attacks from the protestant side ie the paint bombing of the church etc but it is no way the same level at what’s been happening from the strand – this is orchestrated 100%
The Provos and in particular Brendan Hughes ( I man I must admit have tremendous respect for) say they joined the movement after Bombay street to protect their community –So please explain to me what is the difference between protestants defending themselves and Bombay street??
Jim Wilsons first interview was shambolic he basically came and said they these things happen because loyalist are left outside the process (more brains in a false face) but if anyone cared to listen to the minister on that same night after Jims interview he pointed out the real reasoning behind this and highlighted the on going attacks on protestant homes
And as for this beast from the east –you have all seen what the Loyalist community feels with what’s happening at that interface so let’s be a bit more factual before pointing fingers at anyone individual – Not to mention the dissident bombings and shooting every chance they get so I guess there’s a few rogues element’s there which do not seem to be getting the same spotlight shown upon them – the mainstream republicans may feel they have peace but for unionists we are not so sure.
For Alex Maskey to say three is a problem on the protestant side that is our responsibility and to show leadership is completely laughable given what Is going on his own side. Practice what you preach Alex the dogs in the street now your organisation could shut those dissidents down at the drop of a hat if you really really wanted to. Of course you will deny this and tell people to go to the police etc but we all know this is empty words and nothing more and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
To be honest I don’t really care if people try and ridicule this – this is the truth as I know it simple coming that area.
I hope it clears this up for anyone.
And as for the PSNI reports pointing the finger completely as loyalists – just out of interest. How many republicanism have been trailed into the HET or Asset Bureaus in comparison with the loyalist side??
With the exception of anyone who disagrees with the mainstream republicans (Gerry MeGeough for instance)
This conflict is either over or its not if the government is going to go after ex combatants then at least have some degree of consistency or we will never move on.
gtm2011 I live on the other side of the interface barrier, I’m not going to insult anyone by making up stories. There may well be attacks from the Short Strand on a daily basis which is wrong if true, speaking from my own experience there is not a day goes by whereby some missile or other comes over the wall at my home or my neighbours, golf balls and marbles are a regular, I have seen more golf balls than Rory McIlroy yet never played golf in my life! But, heres the crux, I would in no way seek to get even with the other side by organised attacks. The scenes we witnessed by last week when the UVF organised mass destruction of the area, have in my opinion set community relations back 10 yrs. The mistrust now in the Short Strand will be very difficult to remove, and the young people of both areas have sampled violence which everyone had thought we would never see again. There are almost daily excuses emanating from Loyalist for the violence, none of which stand up to scrutiny or can be justified, what happened was wrong end of story. As for the HET and assets recovery, are you suggesting that Loyalists under investigation should be given immunity for their criminal acts ? and if the are not are we to witness more of the same by the UVF ? If thats the case we are destined to be forever in the mire of conflict, I wouldn’t wish that to be the case, do you ?
Victor no-one wants to go back to what we had before I can honestly say that the area do feel under attack and it was simply a push to far – I do believe you when you say youre experiancing the same kind of issues on your side of the fence. After the talks things have settled down and hopefully people will pull their horns in and get back to living in peace. Both sides were wrecked and caused a lot of damage.
My point being with HET and assest etc is that if there are investigations then it should also apply to republicans and I mean mainstream republicans also as it does seem to be all one way traffic both sides were and are involved in criminal acts but very very few from a republican background are being targeted in the same way as loyalists this cannot be disputed.
We have government officals who are heading the state who we all know were involved in some sort of criminalty throughout the conflict so it does seem rather contradictory that some get a get out of jail free card while others are being pursured and held accountable it has to be more fair right across the board.
What’s with all the golf balls? I doubt many people from that area have ever swung a golf club (except maybe to break a church window)
gtm2011 The HET issue is a perception, you miss the point that the vast majority of people convicted or imprisoned during the conflict were Republican maybe thats why those Loyalists who were given free reign during the conflict are being perused now. Besides that, what has that got to do with the people in the Short Strand ? attacking the Short strands going to stop HET enquiries is it ?
Another issue regarding the HET is evidence, given that Loyalists were operated by Special branch and are overflowing with informers, the HET have little problems gaining information on those organisations, therefore pursuing them is a simple task, it may not be so on the Republican side.
The HET is not a perception its a fact look at the figures, secondly the Provos were infiltrated at the highest level (even though they like to tell everyone they werent) so im sure theres evidence there if governmnet wish ti use it im sure the likes of Dennis Donaldson, Stakeknike must have given them quite more than car reg numbers over the years.
Look im not saying that this is why the trouble flared I
UVF ATTACKS ON Short Strand
Were due to the following:
Attacks on Protestant homes? We have established that both sides suffered similar attacks, therefore it cannot be that.
HET enquiries into Loyalist attacks? Nothing whatsoever to do with the Short Strand therefore it cannot be that!
Assets recovery taking criminal assets from Loyalists? Nothing whatsoever to do with Short Strand residents, therefore it cannot be that!
Financial reward to those in the UVF who organised the attacks? Hasn’t been established but is in the mix as the major factor!
Pure unadulterated bigotry? Again another major factor, highly probable, but likely a partial excuse.
UVF leadership in East Belfast seeking to gain control? Another probable and again likely to be partial rather than solely responsible!
And the facts! Nothing can excuse the behaviour of the organised Loyalists assault on the Short Strand. Those seeking to excuse their vile behaviour are as guilty as those in the masks, there are no excuses, it’s that simple!
that sent without finishing..
Look Im not saying that HET etc is why the trouble flared im saying there seems to relentless blame, persecution on loyalists at every chance this being one of them the PSNI were all over the loyalists on this trouble but didnt once mention the constant attacks in the area leading up to the riots of whihc thye have been reported each and every time even when asked about the shooting they were very clear in saying it was the UVF who fired but when asked who fired from the strand they say they didint know – yeah right
Look I think we’ve both got our own Ideas and thoughts here so im leaving this alone now.
Cheers
The attacks were wrong! Vile! and totally unjustified, no excuses no matter how many are contrived can change that fact.