We should envy the people of Manchester their sense of solidarity, but defiance in the face of killers is not enough

British reaction to the Manchester atrocity has not yet reached the level of reproaching the authorities for “ the one that got away.” But it soon will, if the reaction to 7/7 is followed.

MI5’s investigation into Crevice threw up 55 individuals associated with the plotters. MI5 said it would have liked to have pursued all of them. But it was a matter of resources and only 15 were seen as “essential” targets.

The remaining 40, including those later identified as Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer, were “parked up” – not treated as urgent cases. The two had not been heard discussing terrorist acts in Britain, MI5 insisted.

From interviews gathered in a few hours by the Guardian  the Mail and others, we’ve quickly learned  that the suicide bomber was a young Manchester-born man with strong links to Libya who had a home a few miles up the road at Fallowfield, and had obvious jihadist sympathies and contacts. Another one  who escaped the net. The police are now lifting the whole little network of contacts but if precedent is followed, they’ll  release most of them soon.

We are left little the wiser about what ministers’ solemn and guarded jargon about raising the level to “critical” actually means about the level of risk to the public. The army deployment around public buildings in London seems like obvious PR, the moves of a government racing ahead  to forestall inevitable future criticism.

The police have enough  “resources” we’re  told.  So they had enough resources on Monday night and yet the suicide  bomber got through. So it isn’t a question of “resources” then. That seems to be quite  a different issue about releasing enough regional police officers for arms training to be able to deal with a Bataclan – type gun attack.

It’s tempting and so easy to be cynical.  But cynicism is impotent and runs away from responsibility.  Those with experience of the Troubles can easily identify the problem. Pull the net tighter and you radicalise more.  Keep it too loose and they get away. And no net is big enough anyway. Danny Morrison had a point: “ we( they) only need to be lucky once.”  Ghettos become separate worlds, even armed camps.

What can people do? Jihadism is not a political cause to “get round the table and talk” about, whatever the bitter regrets about Iraq and however many hair shirts we wear for ” British imperialism.” It is an implacable movement that lusts for revenge with maximum cruelty endorsed by perverted religion. Even Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t want us to take all the  blame for it, a view which is a far left form of condescending imperialism in itself.

Well focused public opinion at local level can make a difference even against cells. Jihadists have behavioural traits and religious expression which are tell tale signs. The general, mass public response of solidarity and defiance that we saw in Albert Square is valuable as it concentrates  opinion in favour of civilisation. It  limits polarisation and emphasises the marginalisation of militants on all sides. It creates a weight of numbers and gives decent people courage to take on angry militants.

But I’m not aware of moderate Moslems fighting battles against extremists. Why aren’t these happening? Not enough of them happened in Northern Ireland.

When extremism is rampant and on the offensive, peace rhetoric has very limited impact, as the Nobel Peace prize winning Peace People sadly proved.

White militancy cannot be ignored any more than militant Islamism but this tends to be expressed more in terms of anti-immigration than anti-Islam or outright racism. For all the fears about globalisation, cultural and religious differences  are harder to handle once they reach the domestic intimate level.  A  proper desire to contain  community tensions should mean facing problems rather than evading them. Inevitably pressure is rising to stiffen the controversial Prevent strategy.

 David Anderson, who stepped down from the role of independent reviewer of terrorism legislation in February, said the suicide bombing which killed 22 people is likely to “focus minds” on the importance of Prevent.

I think it may also focus some Muslim groups on the question of are they prepared to help, do they understand that, unpalatable as it may seem, part of the answer to this lies in people in the communities trusting the police enough to tell them when they are suspicious of something, cooperating with local authorities and police in trying to stop people who are going off the rails.

(Home Secretary Amber) Rudd said plans to give an “uplift” to Prevent to improve its effectiveness were already in the pipeline.

Communities have to own anti-terrorist strategies, not imposed from above. Easy to state, difficult to make happen because of the dilemmas and ambivalence that we recognise so well.  It was Northern Ireland’s  tragedy that we were so divided before the Troubles began that we never achieved the necessary level of solidarity to bring them to a halt for 30 years.  Despite so much progress, solidarity still eludes us.

Yet  defiance however movingly expressed in Manchester is no longer enough. That’s the new conclusion of  Lucy Easthope, a planner for emergencies  in a piece of required reading in the Guardian

The statements from local politicians, imbued with messages of resilience and defiance, emphasising that it will be “business as usual”, are carefully planned in advance. The vigils to show solidarity are expected now, including a pre-negotiated multi-faith element, and the UK’s ability to put its services back together in a show of strength are admired around the world. It has been said that on the night after the bombings in Boston, USA, in 2013, the mayor of that city gathered his staff together and in a reference to the attacks that took place in Britain on 7/7 stated “tonight we do a London”. After all, in the UK capital, after four suicide bombers targeted the transport networks on a Thursday, the theatres were back open 48 hours later.

I have been writing these emergency plans for over a decade as a national adviser on “recovery management”, running exercises and training events all over the country for police and civil servants. I present Powerpoints to them on “recovery lessons” from around the world – “I heart Stockholm; I heart Paris … here is some wording from the USA about never giving in …” We design scenarios and we test the kit, the emergency phone line, the evacuation, the family liaison, the press conference and the politician’s first statement, all to a narrative that we invent involving a fake airline or a fictitious shopping mall.

I glimpsed a future of repeated attacks – I believe we are in that era now. I glimpsed the carnage and the loss and the pain; attacks designed by terrorists to try to create a tear in the relationship between Muslims and their friends and neighbours…

It was always going to be children. That fits the new terrorist modus operandi of hitting us where we hurt most, and yet this is always the scenario we censor in exercises.

Yesterday I realised that the fight rhetoric has gone too far and instead what we need to do is to admit how much this hurts. Ever since 9/11 there has been a sense that falling to our knees in despair would be letting “them” win but there is perhaps a greater bravery in admitting what the loss of people means to us. By rushing to show that this will not break us we are also allowing a cycle to emerge; we are hit; we will stand strong; we are hit; we stand together and thus we allow our leaders to never address just how much damage is being done to our nation.

Is she saying the victims, injured and bereaved are already being sidelined. Is this wrong and if so, how long should they come first, before the needs of society to ” heal?”  We’re still struggling with these questions today.

What do parents tell their small  children about Arena? What we did in the Troubles. There are bad people who want to harm us but  there are more good people who want us to be safe and happy, starting above all with Mummy and Daddy, then your wider family, your friends and their families and your teachers. That depicts a world of discreetly guarded safety. Older kids? The unbiased  truth, carefully formulated against bigotry with no easy solutions, succinct and well rehearsed.

Nice to see Gaby Hinsliff make one of the few references to Northern Ireland I’ve seen.

(Manchester) will overcome this, just as it overcame an IRA bombing two decades ago; I doubt this atrocity will change the city half as much as its perpetrators hope. Even at the height of the Northern Ireland Troubles, Belfast still had a nightlife, albeit one circumscribed by complex rules and security constraints that clubbers in the rest of the UK never had to learn.




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  • Smithborough

    “What do parents tell their small children about Arena? What we did in the Troubles. There are bad people who want to harm us but there are more good people who want us to be safe and happy, starting above all with Mummy and Daddy, then your wider family, your friends and their families and your teachers. That depicts a world of discreetly guarded safety.”

    And never trust them’uns? Sorry to be cynical, but violence like this does make prejudice/sectarianism a form of self-defence.

  • Granni Trixie

    Sectarianism here which often gets exploited in politics is an additional fault line which we appear to tolerate.

  • hollandia

    We collectively tolerate it because the big question is unresolved. A lot of unpalatable things are let slide: Sectarianism, racism, sexism to name but three.

  • chrisjones2

    Whats the difference between sectarianism and racism? Nothing …but sectarianism is seen as simply more palatable, less bad

  • hollandia

    There’s no difference at all. Just different facets of intolerance. And I would disagree that sectarianism is somehow seen as more palatable. The point is, we let an awful lot slide in pursuit of a united Ireland/maintenance of the union* (delete as appropriate). Time to grow up and demand higher standards.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    That’s largely from a very Northern Irish viewpoint.

  • Granni Trixie

    Whilst not unique to Ni, sectarianism is deeply embedded in our culture aided and abetted by structural divisions. I certainly don’t see it as ‘less bad’ than racism. What they have in common is that they are based on prejudice.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    It may do but in Northern Ireland the divisions were already there and many people were already on the defensive long before the Provos formed and the UVF reformed etc. Violence only exacerbated a tense situation.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    “Communities have to own anti-terrorist strategies, not have them imposed from above.” Interestingly NI once ‘enjoyed’ both: with some communities ‘owning’ their own anti-terrorist (ostensibly pro-state or anti-state) brigades in the belief that it was an essential self protection strategy. That narrative is clearly expressed on Slugger from the usual culprits only in the last few days.

    Lucy Easthope is of course prescient: “we are hit; we stand together and thus we allow our leaders to never address just how much damage is being done to our nation.” NI withstood this too but we were/are 2 nations and some of us allowed or tolerated vigilantism to take over and elected reps to exploit fears, grievances and defensiveness.
    I often wonder if there is a top down nature to the UK state which discourages critical engagement from the public even in the face of this menacing landscape. The UK has the reputation of being a very secretive state: state security takes non disclosure to almost absurd levels. Perceptions of the ‘nanny state’ create sometimes extreme states of trust and distrust and then there are health and safety gone mad arguments. Faith in the opaque institutions and instruments of the state including state security measures AND general public safety may be tested to breaking point but then how does the state create engagement from the public particularly the communities where a sense of alienation and distrust already exists?

  • Smithborough

    Maybe we don’t have any real choice in the matter. It is comforting to a nice Western liberal worldview to believe that divisions exist largely through the manipulative efforts of sinister bad people, but what if groupthink is just human nature and conflict between groups is also consequently natural? If that is the case then allowing mass immigration is a mistake of monumental proportions.

    Looking at our own part of the world, 400 years after the Plantation, Irish nationalism still hasn’t come up with a vision of Irishness which can embrace the descendants of the planters. Is GB really going to succeed where we have failed?

  • murdockp

    The reason what there is solidarity in Manchester is because all people were welcomed into the community from every corner of the world including a large number of Irish immigrants. Every one lives in the city and the same opportunities of life exist for all i.e. equality which is why we can observe an Indian Sheik Tax Driver seeing himself as a Mancunian.

    The reason why there never will be social cohesion / Solidarity in Northern Ireland is neither side actually believes in equality, each is trying to be the ruler and dominate the other, particularly through the medium of religion. Licencing laws? Sunday Trading? Anti Prostitution laws? Gay Marriage anyone? The discrimination list is long.

    Therefore when you openly discriminate against a people denying them jobs, education and housing for example, it is no surprise division and mistrust ensues and why we will never have solidarity.

    Personally I have far more in Common with the people of Manchester where I worked for some time than I do with many of the Loyalist communities.

    We will never have solidarity in NI as long as DUP continues to discriminate against every group who is not them.

  • johnny lately

    We tolerate ! Have you forgotten it was once institutionalized in this part of the world Granni when it was a one party state.

    On a point in the OP. Its not surprising he was known to British intelligence who although seen him as being a threat nevertheless decided he wasn’t as big a threat as others.

    Same old excuse.


  • Gavin Smithson

    Terrorists commit an atrocity. It’s followed by hipster vigils and LoveNotHate hashtags.

    We ignore the pain of those who are injured and bereaved.

    The bomber was the son of refugees. I’m all for giving sanctuary to refugeees such as the Vietnamese Boat people, the Jews prior to WW2, Rwandans etc but not for those who come from culture and countries that are riddled with terrorist groups dedicated to our harm and destruction.

    This is not being racist. If I was racist I would be against immigration full stop but I’m not.

    I’m only against immigration from those areas known for terrorists who hate us.

    Not fair I hear the west hating ‘liberals’ cry but i say, unless you secretly support such terrorists, why expose ourselves to this risk?

    Secondly, the only reason Europe is liberal is due to our Judeo Christian history and traditions. Islam or Buddhism or Taoism has never produced a naturally liberal state. If such cultures become a significant size or even a majority, then how much longer would our liberal state survive?

    Not many LGBT groups or Pride parades in Tehran or Cairo. Yes the left save their sheepish ire for Israel, the only country in the Middle East where a gay person or a woman have freedom.

  • Zorin001

    “liberal is due to our Judeo Christian history and traditions”

    Including such great Liberal figures as Franco and Corneliu Zelea Codreanu no doubt.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Inequality does indeed contribute to some of the NI phenomena you mention but there is also another ‘stake’ and that is the sense of belonging or ownership if you will. While Unionists had a very clear and established sense of ownership at one time, that has been eroded (direct rule through to compulsory power sharing) almost to the extent of alienation traditionally felt by CNRs resulting in a reduced sense of shared purpose across the board.
    Solidarity among a people, community or nation has to stem from somewhere i.e. a sense of stake in the state, locality or community which in turn comes from a sense of shared belonging. Many of Britain’s Muslims may feel alienated to varying degrees and violent acts like Monday night’s do nothing to help generate a sense of mutual trust. Some non Muslims fear Muslims but some Muslims fear our potential retribution. Mutual fear and mutual mistrust have to be overcome on an individual level before solidarity can even get started and it’s also a 2 way process. Solidarity requires a lot of work from all of which overcoming the urge to drive more quickly through the “others'” neighbourhood is only one example.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    All Muslims are terrorists … except for the 94% that aren’t.

    By your um … logic, do you assert that Salman Abedi’s parents were also terrorists?
    Oh and eh … please explain this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

  • Zorin001

    To be slightly less glib than my last post:

    What you have presented here is the usual White Nationalist wet dream of a clash of civilisations, reducing a religious movement of over a Billion people to a single formless mass committed to the destruction of the White Race.

    This ignores the massive cultural and sectarian differences inherent in all the different branches of Islam, without even going into the socio-economics factors that have shaped the regions that predominantly make up its traditional base (factors that I believe if the roles were reversed would have an equally detrimental effect on Christianity).

    I particularly enjoyed the shade you threw at the Buddhists and Hindus for completeness.

    Just to make clear I am not discounting the massive problems facing Islam at the current time (particularity in the Middle East and Pakistan), but reducing it to this West v East mumbo jumbo helps no-one and makes tackling the causes of Islamic terrorism all the greater.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Aside from the sweeping generalistions (no better way to ensure one’s voice won’t be heard) I agree with some of what you say regarding immigration.

    I view the UK as ‘UK plc’ and would treat all prospective refugees/immigrants as potential employees over a five – ten year probation period.

    If after this time period you have shown yourself to be of good character and work ethic and have kept your nose clean and are a benefit to the economy/business then welcome aboard.

    If however you keep dubious company, are a drain on resources or simply haven’t made a sufficient effort then please close the door behind you on your way out.

    Granted, this deviates from the profile of this murderer but as an aside it’s worth considering.

    (Btw, I assume you haven’t been to Thailand….?)

  • Smithborough

    Unfortunately we seem to be searching for solidarity in all the wrong places. Western liberalism seems to start by devising a theoretical model of how it thinks the world should work, then imposing this model with the force of law. The priority of the theoretical means it tends to be utopian and its model is usually an “Imagine” type fantasy. For this reason it seeks to weaken communal bonds, thereby creating the alienation on which extremism feeds and the weakness which extremism can easily conquer.

  • Jag

    “The bomber was the son of refugees. I’m all for giving sanctuary to refugeees such as the Vietnamese Boat people, the Jews prior to WW2, Rwandans etc but not for those who come from culture and countries that are riddled with terrorist groups dedicated to our harm and destruction.”

    Yep, agree with that. Planters Out Now! Ireland for the Gaels!

  • Jag

    There has been a giant failure in the security services. France and the USA had identified the suspected culprit as a jihadist. He didn’t build the bomb himself. He just spent the last few weeks in Libya.

    We in Britain have given up so many of our liberties, we are constantly under lawful surveillance, internet, CCTV along with traditional phone tapping and such. We can be detained without trial in northern Ireland. Elsewhere we can be detained for 28 days without being charged. We can be deported to countries which might torture us. We now live in a police state. In return for those sacrifices we were supposed to have security. Yet the atrocity in Manchester casually happens.

    Heads should be rolling at the security services.

  • Zorin001

    And you just know the response will be to give more overreaching powers to the police and intelligence services, instead of improving and tightening what we have at the moment.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    You raise a very valid point. I would extend this analysis to the American Dream: a flexible enough framework onto which all huddled masses yearning to breathe free along with all the WASPS can attach themselves. As a result communal bonds are formed and social disintegration and alienation occur simultaneously. Therefore it is revealing that many US Muslims are benefiting from the land of opportunity.

    However, I disagree with your claim that the theoretical model “seeks to weaken communal bonds”. The Specifically British model is anglocentric and essentially middle class but this came about through the fudge and muddle of the establishment of the CofE and the emergence of Middle England traced back to Edmund Burke and developed by Disraeli’s one nation toryism and the young Englanders etc. There were always going to be those who would have trouble accessing that but communal bonds are formed nonetheless.

  • ted hagan

    File under ‘fascist’.

  • Granni Trixie

    I don’t find it tolerable but de facto it is. And yes,I am very much aware of the one party state – it was a failure.

  • chrisjones2

    i disagree. Its universally applicable.

  • Zorin001

    I don’t 100% agree with all of this but it’s food for thought and I thank you for presenting it in an even-handed way. I think we can all talk over each other online and see the worst i each other, we should all be more open to exchange ideas.

    What I will say is I don’t think its just Liberals who try and create theoretical models to make the world work, all ideologies do and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

  • Brian Walker

    Under what law can we detained without trial in NI? How is your own liberty being restricted?

  • Zorin001

    “If after this time period you have shown yourself to be of good character and work ethic and have kept your nose clean and are a benefit to the economy/business then welcome aboard.”

    Only problem AG is there are plenty of locals who don’t reach anywhere near these standards, so what do we do with them?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    They have their foot in the door. I have ideas for them but I’ll wait till we’re all feeling a bit more ‘Daily Mail’…

  • Jag

    “Under what law can we detained without trial in NI?”

    Ask Tony Taylor

    As for the second question, based on “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” school of propaganda, surveillance and monitoring do interfere with our rights to privacy.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Why? Why not pragmatic?

    I’ve been an immigrant to two different countries and for one I had to jump through many many hoops before I could set foot through the doorway.

    For my current abode I must register with the local police and accept that they can call in on me at any time to check that I’m doing exactly what I said on the tin.
    If I don’t behave myself or play by the rules then my residency is revoked.
    And should that ever come to pass I shall (despite the inconvenience) rejoice that the system works.

  • Zorin001

    Sounds ominous AG.

    EDIT: I had a longer reply drafted but Disqus is being awful today and wiped it all out twice in a row. To summarise I wouldn’t subscribe to much of what you wrote but it is at least a sensible starting point for debate unlike a lot of discussion of immigration in the public domain.

  • Jag

    You’re not wrong there Zorin. I was smiling wryly at the deployment of 1,000 troops in London…..to protect their MPs! No troops on the Tube, or on Oxford Street where the peasants roam.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Except that the parallels aren’t quite convincing though. By way of crude overview, populations were moved here and to Cyprus and to Sri Lanka by British administrations and when each became too problematic the British solution was to partition each island. There were many that immigrated here as a result of a Scottish famine but before that the Plantation itself was an exercise in social engineering.
    There has been no social engineering intended in the happenstance of Britain’s present Muslim population and I don’t think many seriously believe that there’ll be a caliphate any time soon in GB.
    As for your point about integration and cohesiveness, a significant element of generic British culture is centred round the boozer and other sites of alcohol consumption. That won’t be a problem for immigrants who imbibe the devil’s buttermilk but it can be for those who believe that getting completely sukara is haraam.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    That’ll suit an exhibitionist like me then!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Thanks, though I can’t see why it’s ominous.
    It’s a one size fits all approach to immigration that ensures the best for the country, stops pressure for outright blanket bans or quotas and takes into consideration the views of people who could be described as righter-wing, a group that have a right to an opinion too but are amongst the most easily disenfranchised groups as they can have their entire viewpoint discounted simply by calling them names.
    I’m hardly a right winger by any stretch but an Alf garnet has an equally valid say as a Twiggly-puff-esque-far-leftie who lives with a cat in her safe space.

  • Zorin001

    “Thanks, though I can’t see why it’s ominous”

    I meant us all feeling a bit more “Daily Mail”! Considering my intense dislike of that particular rag I always feel a sense of dread when its name comes up.

  • Brian Walker

    You make my points

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    As fair enough, it really is an awful paper.

  • doopa

    “But I’m not aware of moderate Moslems fighting battles against extremists. Why aren’t these happening? Not enough of them happened in Northern Ireland.”
    Can you tell me more about your insight into the Muslim community in England? Which mosques are you visiting regularly in order to see these ‘battles’ you need to see?

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    I feel you’re pointing out that the disincentives to live where you do are outweighed by the positives.

    What are the incentives to living in the UK at present? That depends on the country of origin I guess: not just its regime but also its economy, climate, healthcare provision, ad infinitum.

    I think we can imagine the positives for those who came from the once colonised Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and, most of all, Uganda and it’s the 2nd and 3rd generations: the descendants of those immigrants that can show radicalisation as much as those more recent first generation immigrants. So something’s going wrong in the process of assimilation, multiculturalism, mutual respect, or whatever the plan is, in some quarters.
    In short who the UK is presently letting in is not always the problem. What happens to some when they get here can be and what happens to some who were born here can be too and remember Richard Reid. But hey, aren’t we, in wee Norn Iron, familiar with radicalisation, fanaticism, pointless destruction and killing in the name of God or in the name of some other ideal higher than ourselves? Back then the worst that was happening among our immigrant population was a brief rise in racketeering from a triad or two.

  • Smithborough

    The American dream is the most successful attempt to implement a liberal utopia, however your comments about WASPs point to why these utopias fail. The priority gven to the theoretical means that the dominant position of one group in the liberal state makes it intolerable, so ways of eliminating that dominance in the name of a purely theoretical idea of “equality” must be found. It doesn’t matter if its achievements are better than 75% of other existing societies on earth, it must be improved for reasons of ideological purity and if the improvement leads to destruction, then it’s all the fault of the WASPs anyway.

  • Smithborough

    I don’t think that the theoretical model is the exclusive preserve of liberalism. In many ways the triumph of the Brexit vote is the victory of a purely theoretical view of British sovereignty over concrete reality.

  • Smithborough

    I think you are mistaking Britain for Turkey in Cyprus.

    While blind social engineering can certainly rapidly worsen a problem, this does not mean that an absence of social engineering means that problems will not exist. Much of the Balkans is not socially engineered (unless the existence of a state in itself is regarded as a form of social engineering).

  • Salmondnet

    yes of course. Obviously the fault of the security services. No responsibility at all rests on the ruthless liberal ideologues who fostered cultural diversity where it did not previously exist without regard to the inevitable consequences.
    We had better all get used to it, because in the unlikely event that Islamic terrorism is ever controlled (at huge social and economic cost) some other disaffected group will fill its shoes.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    My immigration plan was not a solution for Islamic fundamentalists (see Australia for proof of this, Australia is the aforementioned hoop-weilding country that caused me to ‘proof my worth’ and they have a significant number of fundamentalists), rather it was a proposal that UK plc gets to cherry pick the very best that the masses have to offer.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    What about the Gael planters?

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Which was exactly my point. The Black Lives Matter movement and the Black Panthers are 2 different responses to the long term legacy of a utopia largely built on slavery. Ironically Edward Gibbon was already making your point during the American War of Independence, albeit in reference to another empire.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Racism was once “universally applicable” largely to justify a particular economy. In some regions racism is now acceptable, natural even. Sectarianism or its absence is subject to vagaries and external influences too.

  • Jag

    And you, mine 🙂

  • Jag

    No, you’re missing the point. We’ve given up a lot of freedoms in respect of our privacy (and at a vast cost if there are 2,500 MI5 staff working from east Belfast), and yet it didn’t stop the incident in Manchester. Who takes responsibility for that failing.

  • chrisjones2

    “France and the USA had identified the suspected culprit as a jihadist. ”


    “We can be detained without trial in northern Ireland”

    You can be lawfully detained anywhere for questioning

    “We can be deported to countries which might torture us. ” Utter nonsense. Only if you are a citizen of that state and lose an appeal in the Uk

    “We now live in a police state” – Utter twatery. You seem so self absorbed that you have no ideal what a REAL police state looks like

    “Heads should be rolling at the security services” On what basis? Something you read on Twitter again?.

  • Zorin001

    Cultural diversity has existed for far, far longer than Liberalism, look at the ethnic makeup of the Roman or Persian Empires, and Britain has never been 100% white Christian even before the Empire.

    I think there’s a likely probability that in 300 – 400 year time historians will be looking at the idea of the post-Westphalian Nation State as an abnormality in history.

  • chrisjones2


    Errr…deployed to cover fixed targets across London leaving Police to deal with the public

  • chrisjones2

    “if there are 2,500 MI5 staff ” …drive down have a look at it and see how many could be working there. I think 2500 is the entire strength of MI5.

  • chrisjones2

    No. He was tried and convicted and sentenced> He was then released on licence but broke the terms and was returned to prison . He has the right to appeal that – I think he did so and lost

  • chrisjones2

    If you think Manchester is a city of equals you are sadly sadly mistaken

  • chrisjones2

    Oh dear oh dear. Read a bit of Modern American history. The history of the Italian American community Tammany Hall and the Irish? Treatment of the Blacks? Irish? Hispanics?

    It was all more like ferrets in a sack than what you suggest

  • chrisjones2

    Who are the Moslems? In my experience they are hugely splintered on racial lines with mosques based on different communities almost at war with each other. Then there are faction fights within individual mosques aside from the Sunni / Shia splits and followers of different Imams. It makes Christianity look like a model of brotherly love

  • chrisjones2

    Then talk to various posters here I suggest …the level of casual racism is stunning at times

  • chrisjones2

    You seem to be like Jag. “We live in a police state but the Government failed by not locking him up on the vaguest suspicion”

  • chrisjones2

    But who are the Gaels? They arent genetically different and my family has been here since perhaps the 1100s. Try getting us out now.

  • chrisjones2

    See various posts above. I suggest you blame the security services who are clearly watching you

  • chrisjones2


  • Zorin001

    I don’t but I still have to look at its rancid headlines on the newsstand.

  • Zorin001

    Pretty sure they are watching everyone nowadays Chris, or at least keeping track of what we are up to.

  • chrisjones2


  • chrisjones2

    Find a newsagent that doesnt show it …you don’t have to read the headlines

  • Smithborough

    Democracy tends to undermine cultural diversity as people in a democracy then want their government to reflect them.

  • doopa

    Tell me more about your experiences of ‘Moslems’. You spend a long time in Malaysia? Or India? Or maybe Indonesia?

  • Gopher

    There is a reason why they did not name the suspect so as they could round up as many of his mates before they go to ground or panic and set off another bomb. It was either stupidity or electoral knavery by France and Im not exactly sure what Americas excuse is.

  • hgreen

    Ahhh ye olde “I’m not a racist but” argument.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    It doesn’t look like you know what I was suggesting.

  • Reader

    Zorin001: …look at the ethnic makeup of the Roman or Persian Empires…
    …whatever happened to those empires?

  • chrisjones2

    No living in England!!!!! In an area where the Moslem community came from (I think) about 16 different ethnic groups / countries some of whose countries were still at war with each other. There were more schisms, pickets at Mosques and ‘accidental’ fires than even a Pentecostal church in NI.

  • chrisjones2

    I do…just pointing out that the American Dream is a myth based on individualism rather than community

  • grumpy oul man

    Electoral knavery?
    Care to explain!

  • grumpy oul man

    Wow. t all those liberals fault, never ind that the people doing it arnt iberal.
    I asked Abucs/ patrick mac ( both cets of the same confused person) to prove a claim ( i asked r facts that were checkable) he failed miserably perhaps you could supply some.

  • grumpy oul man

    Like alll empires they had their time.
    Are you suggesting that their demise was because of cultural diversity. If you are could you prove it.

  • Reader

    grumpy old man: Are you suggesting that their demise was because of cultural diversity. If you are could you prove it.
    Both empires were finally destroyed by Muslim expansion. Though, since you mention it, the western Roman Empire received its final blows from people who had been allowed to settle within its borders.

  • Zorin001

    Its happens to all empires and countries eventually, our mistake it to think what we live in now is eternal. In 500 years hence the World will look very differently geo-politically than it does now, its the nature of things.

  • Zorin001

    Most modern research points that its more complicated than that, for example the lack of innovation in areas other than war, failure in the economy long term, internal infrastructural weakness.

    Not that immigration wasn’t a factor but the Roman Empire was dying long before that. Plus the Eastern half lived for another 1000 years, I know it was the Ottomans that finished it off but it could have easily been the Bulgarians a few hundred years beforehand.

  • L.I.Am

    In fairness Chris there have been breaches of rights against innocent citizens by covert police units such as the Lawrence family and more recently vulnerable animal rights activists. Seems this is a hot topic at the moment but proves that ‘nothing to hide, nothing to fear’ is not necessarily the case – especially the the case of Martin Lawrence’s family.

  • grumpy oul man

    Both empires were destroyed by uslim expansion! Really the ppersion empire lived and died efore islam came into existance and i wasnt aware that he Christian kings and popes ho fought ovwr the roman empire were muslims.
    You should check these things out befotmre you pist them.
    But amuse us who were these peopke from outside the Roman empire who settled in it and destroyed it

  • chrisjones2

    I am not sure that simple stoicism isn’t enough ….it often worked in NI where the majority refused to be pushed into a civil war

    Loved a quote from a BBC News reporter last night who said he came across a group of young boys in the city centre and asked what they thought about it all.

    The response was delightful “We are Mancs. They wont scare us”.

    Good on you boys. Get on with life and face them down

  • Tochais Siorai

    Which family? Going back to the 1100s we all have tens of thousands of direct ancestors.

    I’d be surprised if you didn’t throw up a fair few from mainland Europe……

  • I Can Confirm This

    This is in part as result of the human rights-led Islamification of Europe.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I’ve been in mosques and spoken to Muslims in all walks of life about attitudes to terrorism and national identity for my work – albeit 10 years ago or more. And Chris is right, it’s very difficult to talk about a single Muslim community as such, it’s incredibly diverse. However, arguments do go on as you might expect between Muslims on this stuff and not that much of that gets really reported. One thing I did hear back then from the more political voices was that UK foreign policy in the Middle East was the major factor that caused alienation and resentment among disaffected Muslims here. Not just “radicalised” Muslims but many moderate Muslims.