Could NI provide a home for Trident?

Something that caught my eye in a defence debate today when the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson pitched this idea;

When the Scottish Affairs Committee looked at this issue a year ago, Northern Ireland was not mentioned as a possible place for relocation. Anyway, thought bubble though it is, the SDLP were quick out of the traps on it,

 

, ,

  • Starviking

    Surely you mean Fukushima?

  • Starviking

    How would people in Ulster be ‘fooked’ because of a nuclear power plant incident in Britain (No NPPs in Ireland).

  • Niall Chapman

    Ireland is just across the sea from Britain, in a disaster the nuclear fallout would obviously have an effect on Ireland, if only there were examples…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU4_bJT8W3Y

  • Starviking

    Chernobyl was a graphite-moderated with a positive void-coefficient, in basic English: it tended to increase power output in an accident, and could catch fire.

    There are no Chernobyl-type reactors in GB, and all have zero or negative void-coefficients.

  • Sergiogiorgio

    Same to you.

  • Starviking

    Lucky Island?

  • Croiteir
  • Croiteir

    Do you think he would have kept the three separate kingdoms? Just think – we could have the Wittelsbach now.

  • Starviking

    Cheers! This seems pertinent:

    Professor Chalmers said this criteria of keeping warheads and missiles far enough away from people and sites of economic value was why Scottish locations were popular among the 1960s options:

    A lot of the issues at that time, which would be greatly intensified today, would be in relation to the safety margins that the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate would insist on. Unless you are prepared to re-house a very large number of civilians and close down areas of housing and so on, it limits where you can put the particular facilities.

  • Croiteir

    As I say – Belfast and Derry areas are out, can you think of any deep water facilities that would meet the criteria, I can’t.

  • Kevin Breslin

    You are seriously trying to justify the Penal Laws with moral relativism about the IRA/PIRA?

  • Sergiogiorgio

    Yep, “good fortune island”. Weird??

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Barnshee, you obviously have not read Hamill yet, or even my tiny quotes. These who defended the town were reduced to beggery and asked for relief from an indifferent administration over the water. “Eaten bread is soon forgotten”……….

    On my weekly trips through I’ve seen few over on the Waterside who do not look rather better off than those I’d see around the Bogside, etc.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Actually the technical term Kevin is “Historical Foundation Myth Whataboutery”.

    I know I keep saying this, but for anyone who has been long exposed to the traditional story of the ‘Blockade of Derry’ William Hamill’s “A View Danger and Folly of Being Publick Spirited and Sincerely Loving One’s Country” is a serious corrective. In essence it is a number of the actual defenders clearly saying they would have been far better off in every way to have opened the gates to King James………….

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Croiteir, I go round in circles (sorry about the Irish language pun) here on Slugger over this:

    http://www.jacobite.ca/kings/francis2.htm

    What a delight it would be to have both our true leige master and the Holy Father both with the same name-saint, one they’d share with my grandfather’s old Friend Proinsias Seosamh Bigger. I know a few people from the Royal Stuart Society who visit him regularly. With the mess both London and Dublin are making of virtually everything, we are in constant expectation of his recall to the thrones of his ancestors.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    “Do you think he would have kept the three separate kingdoms?” I’d refer you to Steve Pincus’s book 1688 on that. Steve makes suggestions as to James’s modernising tendencies, and on quite a bit I’m critical of hois conclusions, bu its stae of the art reserch.

    Oh just a rather more amusing answer, at least about his grandson:

    http://www.jacobite.ca/essays/if.htm

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I have my own issues with Crawley’s skills. He was recommended as presenter for a serious programme I’d a hand in developing, and I could hardly believe my ears.

    Nowadays it seems almost impossible for any commissioner to realise that a presenter can both entertain and inform. A presenter either walks or chews gum, and any attempt to do both is highly suspect. And letting some genuine information start making a programme “boring” (ie: what used to be called “informative”) is the big no, no…..

    Oh, I have one sailor in my own family who had some experience of Derry and convoys and from what I’d once heard I would have been as critical as the fellow who was censored.

  • Croiteir

    don’t refer me to it, lend me it, surely you don’t expect me to part with some hard earned?

  • Croiteir

    I would doubt it, I believe that if the English decided to get rid of the present usurpers they would go republican, the long ago lost all morality by not accepting divine right.

    So I will not be planting a white rose just yet.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    My house is surrounded by white roses, Croiteir, for some of us whose ancestors suffered for the truth, “Non Oblitus”.

    Have you come across Breandan Ó Buachalla’s magisterial “Aisling Ghéar”? Interesting themes of “Jacobite becoming Jacobin” in the 1790s here.

    Sadly I would agree with you that in these degenerate times, we are unlikely to see a Stuart on the throne of his ancestors, but it is still of some interest that the youngest current heir, Francis II’s grandson, was born in London.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’m not sure that the McClay even has it. All attempts to persuade the already hard pressed Larne Library to buy it have so far failed, but I tend to buy these things for my researches as they appear. Perhaps interloan?

  • Croiteir

    My gaelic would not be up to it, I have Dr Ó Ciardha, Ireland and the Jacobite Cause. I will admonish you for using Larne Library when Carnlough is in need of patronage.

  • barnshee

    Just pointing out the dicotomy- Survive penal laws -don`t survive the murder campaign by their (alleged) “fellow Irishmen”

  • SeaanUiNeill

    To far away, Carnlough! It’s over fifteen years since I last lived way up Munie Road in a wee cottage, and I’m much neared Larne nowadays.

    Éamonn’s a good egg, a brilliant and careful researcher despite my having found some inaccuracies in the body of the book, and he gives a most energised lecture both in Irish and English! But nothing beats Ó Buachalla’s authoritative tone, my own “Gaeilge” is not up to his complex use of a very pure Irish with few English loan words, but I had an expert in early, middle and modern Irish to hold my hand on the more obscure parts.

  • barnshee

    “On my weekly trips through I’ve seen few over on the Waterside who do not look rather better off than those I’d see around the Bogside, etc.”

    Since a large number of those in “the waterside” have been removed from the city side as a result of the “ministrations” of those on the city side (all of course funded by the British taxpayer- a poorly represented body on the city side) and have tended not to contribute to the ethopian stye population growth on the city side -this is hardly surprising.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    But the point that I was making, had you read my posting, was that the starving, broken survivors of the “starving” within the walls of Derry during the blockade of the city (which was never formally “besieged” in any meaningful sense) whose needy condition William Hamill represented to indifferent London Governments right up to that bitter dead end of despair which he describes in his 1727 book are in no meaningful way doing “better” as you say than the well fed “exiles” inhabiting the Waterside.

    And, technically, are not both the Water side and City side inhabitants equally British citizens (much as some of them might balk at the description), and where they pay taxes, ergo, “British taxpayers”? Such things are accidents of birth and suchlike rather than some elective accolade!

    Oh, you may find it of some interest that during the blockade of 1689 the Bogside and Waterside both were sites of significant Stuart-Loyalist camps, with a mortar battery in the vicinity of St Columbs Park. The only serious approach trenches appear to have been cut between William Street and the Museum of Free Derry, and were sited to assault the Butcher’s Gate, the weakest point on the walls.

  • Kevin Breslin

    It’s a false dichotomy, the existence of two historic events the Penal laws and the Troubles aren’t mutually exclusive, you can’t say the Penal laws existed or the Troubles existed but not both.

    It quite reasonable assertion that series of events in the centuries in between could lead from one to the other. The purpose of the Penal Laws was to wipe out or subjugate Presbyterianism and Catholicism in Ireland.

    If not for the Penal Laws, you wouldn’t have militant Irish republicanism, a movement lead almost entirely by Protestants in the 16th and 17th Century, if not for the Penal Laws, you wouldn’t even have the Union, an act that was meant to save Catholics from the misrule of the Protestant Ascendancy but failed miserably to carry out that task for nearly a century, arguably more.

  • barnshee

    “t’s a false dichotomy, the existence of two historic events the Penal laws and the Troubles aren’t mutually exclusive, you can’t say the Penal laws existed or the Troubles existed but not both.”

    Needs translation in to english

    The presbys of the city side in “derry” survived the penal laws did not surviver the PIRA campaign Their children attacked on busses for wearing their school uniform- the actual school banished to “waterside”

  • barnshee

    “And, technically, are not both the Water side and City side inhabitants equally British citizens (much as some of them might balk at the description), and where they pay taxes, ergo, “British taxpayers”? Such things are accidents of birth and suchlike rather than some elective accolade!”

    Given that “derry ” is a league leader in social security and DLA payments I fear any “tax” collected is swamped by the ensuing support payments

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Still “British Citizens”…..

  • Kevin Breslin

    You may have used the word dichotomy out of context. Being a Penal laws apologist is a poor way to attack the IRA, or the PIRA. They didn’t even exist back then.

  • John Collins

    And those kids who were attacked in Harryville. Hardly Presbyterians

  • Niall Chapman

    Clearly you’ve an idea, was Fukishima positive?

  • Starviking

    The Fukushima Accident, like many accidents, has positive and negative aspects.

    The main direct negative ones, are the displacement of people from around the plant, the need for decontamination, and the costs of securing the Daiichi plant. The biggest indirect negative effects are the radiophobia which has contributed to the high stress levels experienced by Fukushima residents, the banning and shunning of produce from Fukushima, Tohoku, and Japan, and a campaign against nuclear power (Opinions may vary on that last point).

    Of course, Fukushima Daiichi was a small part of the destruction that happened that day. 20,000 people died, settlements were devastated, and Tohoku – not the most prosperous of regions – suffered damage from which it is still trying to recover from today.

    The main positive points are: none of the doomsday theories have panned out, and they have been shown to be unrealistic; the tsunami threat has now been recognized and is being guarded against, and the contaminated area unsuitable for habitation has shrunk significantly. Additionally, the scientific research which is being undertaken into various aspects of the accident (cancer, decontamination effectiveness, decommissioning) will add to humanity’s body of knowledge – which is a plus. There’s a developing theory that thyroid anomalies and cancers are present in a significant proportion of people from an early age, but are mainly slow-growing. This may feed into the debate on “Incidentalomas” – cancers found incidentally during medical scanning, and lead to better decisions and outcomes for patients with a wide range of conditions.

  • Starviking

    Apparently the lord of the feudal domain named his castle “good fortune island”, and the city which grew up around it took the name too, and eventually the prefecture.

    Ironically, Fukushima was growing economically before the disaster – good transport links, sufficient power for industry, but affordable land. A lot of industry is based there for those reasons. Many families in southern Tohoku have relatives who moved there because of the opportunities, so they had “good fortune” up until the recent past.

  • Starviking

    I was looking for some water depth information and found this, which roughly shows depths around the British Isles:

    http://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/200/255/255z.htm

    You can see why the area around Faslane is so popular: deep water easily accessible, and relatively remote. The east coast of N.I. isn’t too far from deep water, and Larne is close to it. Information from the World Port Index shows that Larne can permit vessels of around 12 meters depth to anchor, and slightly lower to dock – so basing the subs there might not be technically impossible.

    Politically though, highly improbable.

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Niall Chapman

    It’s with accidents like Fukishima and accidents in general that people are educated and find measures to guard against the same thing happening in the future but even with all of the new safeguards doesn’t it seem safer and more beneficial to invest in the research and developement of renewable energy source

  • Starviking

    The thing is, in nuclear we have a low-carbon power source which can be reliably integrated into our power system, which has planned developments which could “burn” nuclear waste, and whose worst accidents pale into insignificance compared to what fossil fuels have done and are doing.

    The question is, why is the environmental movement so keen to dump nuclear and go for a mix of renewables (whose large-scale power grid integration is unknown) and gas (which releases lots of CO2)?

  • Niall Chapman

    I understand that there are safeguards and fail safe mechanisms within each nuclear facility, but given the high threat of terrorism now and in the future, where a terrorist group could infiltrate a plant and damage the safety structure, thereby endangering the surrounding area, wouldn’t it be better to invest the billions that we do in developing and protecting powerplants (£1.7bn a year; source below) into renewable energy, where there is very low risk and to research how best to integrate renewable generating stations into our grid
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/29/sellafield-nuclear-radioactive-risk-storage-ponds-fears)

  • Ike Bottema

    The question is, why is the environmental movement so keen to dump nuclear and go for a mix of renewables (whose large-scale power grid integration is unknown) and gas (which releases lots of CO2)?

    Why indeed! What boggles the mind is that wind and solar have far more environmental impacts than nuclear yet “environmentalists” turn a blind eye to the environment. That’s beyond ironic!

  • Malcolm2001

    Well Ike the answer is simple. They are not really environmentalists. All of the folks at the COP21 meeting in Paris are a case study in hypocrisy. The whole point of the discussion is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions but a large majority of them have flown in from halfway around the world to get there. I would like someone to do a calculation as to the amount of CArbon dioxide that has been produced so that discussions can be held to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide in the air. As far as I know jet propulsion uses fossil fuel and these so-called envirnmentalists have burnt more fossil fuels to have meetings that produce no result than I could ever use in a dozen lifetimes. They are not environmentalists at all and most of them have no idea how their pet solutions really impact the planet as most of it is hidden from the view of their delicate eyes by China where almost all of the worlds rare earth metals are produced. Hypocrisy par excellence.

  • Ike Bottema

    Actually the EPA tallies CO2 emissions (and sinks) for the USA. Similarly Environment Canada tallies CO2 emissions in Canada. I expect each country has an agency that does the same. Interesting though that you mention planes. Since planes (and freighters) ply routes outside any country’s jurisdiction, who tallies those emissions? No one it seems.

  • Starviking

    First, nuclear power plants are pretty robust facilities. The main British plants have back-up control and cooling systems, and are designed to fail safe. They also do not use direct water-cooling, meaning that Fukushima-style hydrogen explosions are impossible. There is little chance of danger to the surrounding area.

    Second, how do the terrorists get access? The plants have their own police force, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. Officers are equipped with assault rifles and body armour.

    Third, the risk with renewable energy, discounting the pollutants produced in their manufacture, is that they cannot produce power on demand. To mitigate this in a network with a large penetration of renewables massive energy storage solutions would be needed.

    You mentioned “endangering the surrounding area”. What is more risk to the surrounding area, a climate change certainty of 2-degrees warming (and rising), or a failure of nuclear plants built for safety?

  • Niall Chapman

    I know Uruguay is a small country and has a small population and it’s landscape and geographical position helps them achieve this 95% renewable power, but if this is whats possible now imagine what could be possible in the future without the need for nuclear energy: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/03/uruguay-makes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy

  • Starviking

    Dodging my reply, I see. I presume you had no quibbles with my response?

    As for Uraguay, what is possible now in Uraguay relies on around 60% hydropower.

    Are you suggesting 60% hydropower for everyone?

  • Niall Chapman

    I actually get your point of view, but in regards to the security aspect those “police forces” can’t really be regarded as 100% safe, things can always go wrong. In a past job I was an electrical and mechanical engineer and saw things that should never have broken break and systems with redundancy fail, this was either due to installation error or lack of foresight by the designers, of course a lot of planning and security and redundancy goes into every nuclear facility but with every in depth safety feature is another design and some designs have flaws, so I’m never going to believe that nuclear energy is safer than renewables

  • Starviking

    And what systems were those? How big was the design team? Was there an oversight agency? Was there a long design and review process?