“the #HET did not act legally in examining state killings”

Inconsistencies and shortcomings in policies, systems and practices threaten the legitimacy of the Historical Enquiries Team’s work, and risk undermining the confidence of the families of those who died during ‘the troubles’ in its effectiveness and impartiality.

So says the Inspector of Constabulary about the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) in a report issued today. Originally requested by the Chief Constable, the report looked at the work of the HET in cases with state involvement to see if it meets the requirements that would ensure it is compliant with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (i.e. independence, effectiveness, promptness, and transparency and accountability).

But the inspection found that:

  • the HET is not conforming to current policing standards in a significant number of important areas…

  • the HET treats state involvement cases differently as a matter of policy and this appears to be based on a misinterpretation of the law…

  • as a result, HMIC considers that the HET’s approach to state involvement cases is inconsistent with the UK’s obligations under Article 2 ECHR.

The full report is available here. It includes various details, such as that approximately 25% of the HET staff previously worked for the RUC, Special Branch or the Ministry of Defence but have to declare any past interest in a case (p.115), although elsewhere it is reported that a former RUC office led the HET‟s enquiry into a state involvement case (in breach of the HET‟s policy) and that the officer in question actually knew the SIO in charge of the original investigation (p.23). A central issue here is the staffing of the HET intelligence unit which includes former RUC Special Branch officers and, so, lacks the independence to be compliant with Article 2 (the report helpfully lists, on p.36, the cases where Article 2 rights have already been found to have been violated, in McKerr v UK for lack of proper investigation, likewise Jordan v UK, McShane v UK and Kelly v UK where medical access had also been withheld, the failure to prosecute for collusion in the case of Shanaghan v UK, as also Finucane v UK).  All these cases raised concerns about the independence of the investigating officers.

Getting his concerns (and his objection handling for the predictable Ulster exceptionalism) out quickly, Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary, Stephen Otter has added:

“HMIC is concerned that the inconsistencies we found in our review may seriously undermine the capability of the HET’s processes to determine whether the force used in killings during ‘the troubles’ was justified in state involvement cases, therefore potentially preventing the identification and punishment of those responsible…

…The HET was created and continues to operate within an extraordinarily complex social and political context, which presented those who established it with challenges unparalleled in UK terms.

However, this context makes it even more important for the HET to operate to the highest standards of effectiveness and impartiality, so that the people of Northern Ireland – and in particular, the families of the victims whose cases are being reviewed – can have confidence in it.”

Mark Thompson, of Relatives for Justice, was scathing:

“The report today by the HMIC is damning. It is clear that the HET operate with no policies, no procedures and no terms of reference. However in particular the treatment of victims of state violence is shameful.

“Today’s report outlines the substandard, non-compliant examinations of deaths by the HET in these cases. It outlines to families how once again British soldiers have been protected from prosecution…

“Today we know that the HET, under direction from the PSNI, did not act legally in examining state killings, and in our view after hearing the findings on the methodology and approach, did pervert the course of justice.”

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  • Morpheus

    “25% of the HET staff previously worked for the RUC, Special Branch or the Ministry of Defence”

    Who’s bright idea was that then???

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Anyone know when they start working on the murders carried out by Sinn Fein?

    60% of all deaths caused by Nationalists during The Troubles and yet still we wait……

  • michael-mcivor

    Ulster Press Centre-

    ” the murders carried out by Sinn Fein? “-

    Have you got a list of these murders carried out by Sinn Fein-have you done the law abiding thing and went to a PSNI station with this list-if not-why not-

  • Neil

    Half of two thirds of Ulster Press Centre,

    Quit trolling.

    Mick any chance of taking our off topic UVF cheerleader in hand or is it cool to use every thread now as a chance to indulge our own hobby horses?

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Neil: Quit trolling.

    Mick any chance of taking our off topic UVF cheerleader in hand or is it cool to use every thread now as a chance to indulge our own hobby horses?

    Comment about HET bias on an HET bias thread = ‘off topic trolling’?

  • GavBelfast

    Some of you guys seem to find it impossible to ignore the self-proclaimed “Ulster Press Centre”.

    Why is that???

  • gendjinn

    GavBelfast,

    I think it’s because people recall Mick’s hounding of Billy Pilgrim off this site in comparison with his indulgence of UPC.

  • Ulster Press Centre

    If I break the site’s rules Mick will act (and has done so in the past).

    You guys just seem to dislike reading comments you don’t agree with…

  • redstar2011

    UPC

    Your comments re killings as usual are pathetic in that they are so one sided and sectarian. Talk us through your heroes finest hours murdering and cutting up people for no reason other than their religion, UVF Shankill Butchers

    Some of us will never accept the SF narrative of ” thats how it goes” re Irvine etc and certainly wont forget loyalist/ unionist psychotic butchery.

  • GavBelfast

    I tend to ignore or laugh-off blatant, unashamed propagandists.

    Mind you, I frequently also do the same with more subtle culprits ….

  • Ulster Press Centre

    redstar2011: Talk us through your heroes finest hours murdering and cutting up people for no reason other than their religion, UVF Shankill Butchers

    You mean the guys who killed as many protestants as they did catholics?

  • redstar2011

    Just for once UPC try and be honest

    Lets hear your defence of the Shankill butchers.

    SF were more than happy to accept Irvine’s defence of it but just for the record lets hear your defence of these psychos

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Now who’s trolling….

  • redstar2011

    I will take that as game set and match. Even low life’s like yourself cannot defend the indefensible.

    My greatest scorn on that subject however isn’t for the rubbish who supported such atrocities- but for those who ignored it within our own community for political expedience when it came to courting drug dealing sectarian thugs like Irvine

    I have first hand connection with a victim of the butchers barbarity and to say they were sickened by SFs idolation of that thug is an understatement

  • tacapall

    Is anyone other than those who dont give a fk, in any way surprised that RUC special branch officers are employed via the backdoor to investigate their own collusion in the murders of innocent people, the reality is there is no big difference between the RUC and the PSNI, just a change of name and a different badge.

    As for UPC aka Dont Drink Bleach, some of his points are insulting, provocative and totally one sided but unfortunately some of what he says is the truth but he knows as well as anyone who’s been around a few corners that those who pulled the strings of the puppets who pulled the triggers and detonated the bombs are ultimately responsible for the majority of deaths that resulted in the past conflict. Everyday new evidence is emerging as to the extent of either RUC special branch or British intelligence involvement in the direction and control of the various paramilitaries on both side of the divide and employing those who directed and controlled those puppets to investigate their own wrongdoing is attempting to pull the wool over the worlds eyes.

  • redstar2011

    Excellent post Taca

    Frankly for many of us in the Republican community to this day when we heard MMG tell us its now ok to work for the British security forces our first thought was – when exactly did you start Marty

  • Sp12

    A calculated position based on the understanding that it’s better for an arm of the state to be accused of incompetence and bad practices rather than being found complicit in the murder of your own citizens.

  • tacapall

    “A calculated position based on the understanding that it’s better for an arm of the state to be accused of incompetence and bad practices rather than being found complicit in the murder of your own citizens”

    Sp12 that is why the British establishment have been known as Perfidious Albion for centuries.

    Indeed redstar2011 its the ability to cover up family indiscretions for almost 30 years that puzzles people like myself. Its almost impossible to believe Gerry seniors indiscretions evaded Special branch or British intelligence during the formation of the PIRA.

  • cynic2

    “the ability to cover up family indiscretions for almost 30 years ”

    You assume that the Brits wanted him to fail. What if they wanted him to succeed?

  • Barnshee

    This is excellent news The stats will out and show exactly who the HET is/is not investigating

  • Morpheus

    Am I right in saying that the HET is overseen by the police ombudsman? What was Gerry Kelly thining allowing this to happen?

    Of all people, special branch and military intelligence!

  • Son of Strongbow

    Back after a little holiday in Moderation (I wanted to add another poster’s assessment of my character to my screen name. Alas it all proved too delicate. Seems the keyboard can indeed by mightier than the sword, should you wish to chop jelly that is. Anyhoo I undertake to not be such a naughty boy in future).

    …. and back to find the continuing vendetta against former RUC officers. Seems some don’t want to have a copper about the place.

    That some of these commentators were also railing against banning convicted criminals working as Spads launches hypocrisy to an entirely new level.

    Perhaps being ex-RUC is so criminal an offence that their very presence corrupts? Then again some evidence of their queering the pitch on HET investigations is surely to follow? Or is it mere perception that is being talked about?

    Of course the fact that some nationalists are championing the HMIC report, the body once led by Sir Ronnie Flanagan, is itself a delicious irony.

  • DC

    I hope any new HET can move beyond collusion to inclusion i.e. not just state murders but non-state and not just loyalists.

  • BluesJazz

    And the really good news for these so called ‘victims’ is that the MoD will, of course, co-operate fully with any investigations 🙂

  • Barnshee

    “I hope any new HET can move beyond collusion to inclusion i.e. not just state murders but non-state and not just loyalists.”

    This will turn out to be an own goal. The prods are already adding up the “case count ” and getting a stick to beat the HET
    “you`re not investigating themmuns”

  • tacapall

    “This will turn out to be an own goal.”

    An own goal by who, what bit of – “HMIC considers that the HET’s approach to state involvement cases is inconsistent with the UK’s obligations under Article 2 ECHR” makes you believe this is some sort of republican plot to undermine the HET.

    Maybe you could post up a tally of how many loyalists have been charged via the HET re-investigating historical cases versus how many republicans have been charged via the same process. Dont forget to add in how many members of the security forces have been charged via the same process. It seems when its members of the security forces being found guilty of wrongdoings a simple apology seems to be the end of the matter and no charges or convictions pursued.

  • cynic2

    “HMIC considers that the HET’s approach to state involvement cases is inconsistent with the UK’s obligations under Article 2 ECHR”

    Interestingly we seem to have HET apparently applying different standards to killings by soldiers to those by RUC officers. Now why would that be then and who on earth agreed that policy?

  • tacapall

    “Interestingly we seem to have HET apparently applying different standards to killings by soldiers to those by RUC officers. Now why would that be then and who on earth agreed that policy”

    Well because the British government considers RUC officers as Irish not British and considering its the same RUC officers investigating themselves, I’d assume they figured those same RUC officers would most likely not implicate themselves would they.

  • BluesJazz

    The army were here in a peacekeeping role being shot at by both religious groups. They were under fire and had to make microsecond decisions. Some might have been inappropriate but that’s a matter for the RMP, not the civil power. They certainly didn’t murder anyone.

    The files should be handed over to the Royal Military Police and lapses in training passed on to Sandhurst.

  • Morpheus

    “They certainly didn’t murder anyone.”

    Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy? Ring any bells? Murder has not been proven yet in a court of law yet but with sustained pressure these soldiers will face the full force of the law just as you or I would if we killed innocent people in the street. And rightly so.

    “The files should be handed over to the Royal Military Police and lapses in training passed on to Sandhurst.”

    LAPSES IN TRAINING! Are you serious? I’ll put that down to pure scraping-the-barrel tolling, nothing else.

    This whole sorry issue is yet another example of the security forces clambering to cover their tracks and protect their own to keep the skeletons firmly in the closet until the perpetrators are dead and the PM du jour can issue yet another apology. When people talk about ‘rewriting history’ then the Shinners don’t need their legendary World Wide Media Manipulation Machine, this sort of thing does it for them.

  • Barnshee

    “Maybe you could post up a tally of how many loyalists have been charged via the HET re-investigating historical cases versus how many republicans have been charged via the same process. Dont forget to add in how many members of the security forces have been charged via the same process. It seems when its members of the security forces being found guilty of wrongdoings a simple apology seems to be the end of the matter and no charges or convictions pursued.”

    Hopefully this is exactly the information that will now be produced.. I suspect the end result will be that the HET has let everybody down

  • Morpheus

    “A PSNI spokesman said the HET reviews all 3,260 deaths [2,555 cases] from 1968 to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The unit has already reviewed or is reviewing 2,787 deaths – 1,636 by republicans, 803 by loyalists, 318 by security forces and 30 by unknown or sectarian killers. He added 26 of 39 cases passed to the PSNI for further investigation relate to IRA or INLA murders and 13 to loyalists”

    Not sure how credible the source is though:
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Majority+of+HET+probes+republican.-a0321630981

    However this BT story seems to back it up:
    “But a PSNI statement, released to BBC Radio Ulster’s Nolan Show, said that “of the 39 cases so far passed by the Historical Enquiries Team to the PSNI for further investigation, 26 relate to IRA, or INLA, murders and 13 to loyalist murders.”
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/fionola-meredith/whole-truth-on-perception-is-that-there-really-isnt-one-29126812.html

  • Barnshee

    “Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy? Ring any bells? Murder has not been proven yet in a court of law yet but with sustained pressure these soldiers will face the full force of the law just as you or I would if we killed innocent people in the street. And rightly so.”

    There is not a snowballs chance in hell of anyone being held to account

    1 “I was under fire sor my life was at risk and I shot back”
    or
    2 “I never fired a shot sor”

    Proof is going to be impossible to find

  • JR

    Bluejazz

    The Ira were here in a freedom fighting role being shot at by both the army and loyalist groups. They were under fire and had to make microsecond decisions. Some might have been inappropriate but that’s a matter for the provisional Army council, not the civil power. They certainly didn’t murder anyone.

    Sound Unreasonable?

  • Barnshee

    “A PSNI spokesman said the HET reviews all 3,260 deaths [2,555 cases] from 1968 to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The unit has already reviewed or is reviewing 2,787 deaths – 1,636 by republicans, 803 by loyalists, 318 by security forces and 30 by unknown or sectarian killers. He added 26 of 39 cases passed to the PSNI for further investigation relate to IRA or INLA murders and 13 to loyalist”

    I can`t help it –the bean counter in me surfaces

    Republican 1636—59%
    Loyalist 803 –29%
    Security Forces 318 -11%

    Case reviews

    Republican 26
    Loyalist 13
    Security forces 0

    Note the near 2:1 ratio (Rep/Loyalist) in the source data is preserved in the case review count purely coincidental I am sure!

    To keep the balance then we need

    Case reviews

    Republican Murders 26
    Loyalist Murders 13
    Security forces 4

    Overall it seems a relatively small number number of reviews -given the resources involved ?

    I am a little disconcerted to see 473 deaths apparently vanish (3260-2787) what happened here?

  • Morpheus

    The 26:13 ratio are cases which have been investigated by the HET and passed on to the PSNI for further investigation and potential prosecution. There have been ZERO cases involving The State passed to the PSNI for investigation because the HET investigations have been deeply flawed, as demonstrated by this heavily critical report.

    The 318 cases above (and I dare say a percentage of the loyalist killings in which there was State collusion) have not been investigated to a reasonable standard by the HET so there is little chance of the PSNI investigating or prosecutions. That is not fair in anyone’s book and quite frankly should be as reprehensible to you as it is to me.

    The whole argument that loyalists or the State are unfairly targeted just doesn’t hold any water whatsoever.

  • Ulster Press Centre
  • Ulster Press Centre

    Sorry, exactly 70 out of 72 arrests at that point in time:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12747620

  • Morpheus

    Yes and if you get past the bit you want to see it gives an explanation why 41/66/Ulster Press Centre:

    “The investigations of the special unit, which was formed re-examine Troubles deaths between 1968 and 1998, have led to 72 arrests so far. Of these, 65 were part of Operation Ballast , which examined the activities of the UVF in north Belfast, primarily a unit based in the Mount Vernon estate.

    Dave Cox, from the HET, explained that they had taken on Operation Ballast following orders from the Police Ombudsman, and this had led to an imbalance. He told UTV: “The imbalance is because we were investigating Operation Ballast out of sequence, as referred to us by the Police Ombudsman – really a huge case involving serious, organised crime as well as paramilitary, sectarian murders. The HET had to take on this case because we were passed it by the ombudsman as a matter of public interest, but because of the scale of the case it has now been taken back by the PSNI to progress.”

    Two-thirds of the cases passed from the HET to the PSNI for further investigation and potential prosecution are Republican in nature, a further third are loyalist, ZERO are State related. Hopefully that puts your fears to rest.

  • BluesJazz

    JR
    Your argument falls down on the sectarian nature of the troubles.

    The IRA were a Roman Catholic group focussed on killing Protestants.
    The so called Loyalist groups were Protestant focussed on killing Roman Catholics.

    The Army have no particular religious affiliation, indeed a fair number must have been Roman Catholic. I doubt the Gurkhas or Irish Guards had a high opinion of Ian Paisley.

  • Morpheus

    BlueJazz

    So you are saying that The State’s Security Forces should have been impartial. How did that work out?

    (PS. why do you refer to them as ‘so-called loyalist groups’)

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Morpheus: Yes and if you get past the bit you want to see it gives an explanation why

    What don’t you understand?

    72 HET-related arrests (at that time) and only two – yes TWO – involved catholic fundamentalist terrorism. That’s despite these same terrorists being responsible for 60+% of deaths.

    Are you denying these FACTS?

  • Son of Strongbow

    Sir Hugh Orde has ridden to the defence of the HET. He has made a number of points, partially rubbishing the HMIC report along the way.

    It was known that the HET process was not fully compliant with Article 2 at its inception. The then Policing Board were fully briefed on the issues. (To have been compliant each murder would have required its own separate Murder Investigation Team using a stand-alone computer system and working in a separately located Incident Room.)

    The HET was set up in a vacuum created by ALL other parties failures to agree a process on the past.

    Sir Hugh had hoped that the HET would have transferred to become part if the structures proposed by Eames-Bradley, thus distancing it from the criminal justice system and thereby enhancing its operational independence. However Eames-Bradley was fairly much binned.

    The HET was therefore an attempt by the PSNI to put something in place in the continuing absence of anything else being on the table.

    Funding for HET was secured by Sir Hugh over and above the existing policing budget. With that funding coming to an end CC Baggott continued to fund HET from within the police budget, thereby, according to Sir Hugh, demonstrating his bona fides to continue with a process designed to deliver for bereaved families.

    The directive for the HET approach was primarily twofold: firstly, to deliver to the bereaved family want they wanted (simple information to access to prosecution where evidence merited it), secondly to do so in as transparent a way as possible. Above all was the need to deliver a service on an individual basis. Given that all bereaved families had differing needs there was to be no one-size fits all.

    Sir Hugh criticised the HMIC at looking at the small number of cases they examined as a group and ignoring the central HET raison d’être (to deliver for the families on a case-by-case basis).

    He want on to note that the HMIC team ignored looking at cases where family members had been satisfied by the HET’s work.

    He also commented that suspension of the HET’s work would delay resolution for those many families who continue to have confidence in the HET.

    Reading between the lines the HMIC report could appear as a poorly conceived hatchet job which failed on the basic level to consider what the HET was trying to achieve.

  • Morpheus

    The FACTS are that in that particular point in time time (over 2 years ago in 2011 might I add) the majority of the arrests made to that point were as a result of Operation Ballast which was put to the top of the HET’s list by The Police Ombudsman because it was a matter of public interest.

    Fast forward to 2013 and the HET has confirmed that two-thirds of the cases passed from the HET to the PSNI for further investigation and potential prosecution are Republican in nature, a further third are loyalist and ZERO are State related.

    Do you dispute those FACTS?

    (BTW, I have been thinking about it and I think the 41/66/UPC moniker is unfair – I don’t think your views are held by very many of the 41% either)

  • BluesJazz

    “So you are saying that The State’s Security Forces should have been impartial. How did that work out?”

    Very well, bye and large.

    (PS. why do you refer to them as ‘so-called loyalist groups’)
    They were/are ‘loyal’ to no-one but themselves. A mixture of crude religious hatred and gangsterism.
    Same as so called ‘republican’ groups.

  • JR

    Bluejazz,

    I am not trying to argue anything, just showing how warped your logic is. By the way your statment…
    “The IRA were a Roman Catholic group focussed on killing Protestants.
    The so called Loyalist groups were Protestant focussed on killing Roman Catholics.

    The Army have no particular religious affiliation,”

    doesn’t match with the facts. Under half of those who were killed by the IRA were Protestants, 46% accordig to cain, 790 out of 1,696.

    While nearly 90% of those killed by the army were Catholic, 258 out of 299, nearly 80% of those killed by the RUC were also catholic.

    some other interesting statstics,

    72% killed by UVF were Catholic,
    89% killed by UFF were Catholic,
    57% killed by UDA were Catholic,

    14% killed by Offical IRA were Protestant,
    38% killed by RIRA were protestant.

  • Morpheus

    Morpheus “So you are saying that The State’s Security Forces should have been impartial. How did that work out?”
    BlueJazz: Very well, bye and large.

    Seriously? The B-Specials, UDR, RUC, Special Branch, The Intelligence Corps, Parachute Regiment etc all maintained impartiality and acted on behalf of all citizens of Northern Ireland equally like they were trained and paid to do?

  • Submariner

    BluesJazz (profile) 5 July 2013 at 1:35 pm
    JR
    Your argument falls down on the sectarian nature of the troubles.

    The IRA were a Roman Catholic group focussed on killing Protestants.
    The so called Loyalist groups were Protestant focussed on killing Roman Catholics.

    Bluesjazz
    Your argument falls down due to the fact that the IRA focused on killing members of the security forces irrespective of what religion they were.

  • mac tire

    @ BluesJazz

    “Your argument falls down on the sectarian nature of the troubles. The IRA were a Roman Catholic group focussed on killing Protestants…”

    Hmmm, I can visualize an IRA squad ready to attack a foot patrol, trying desperately to work out which soldiers may have been Catholic so they wouldn’t kill them.

    Ways of working this out could be eyes being too close together or listening to what they were saying first to see who used “Haitch” or “aitch”.

    All true, no doubt because Occupied Six Counties Press Center thinks so. 🙂

  • Alias

    “Your argument falls down due to the fact that the IRA focused on killing members of the security forces irrespective of what religion they were.”

    It just happened to be a happy coincidence that the overwhelming majority of them were Protestants thereby allowing that particular sectarian murder gang to pretend that they ‘holier than thou’ murderers. In the case of Kingsmills and La Mon massacres, the underlying sectarianism of the murder gang’s mentality was more explicit.

    How many women does a man have to rape before he is a rapist? Just one.

  • BluesJazz

    Submariner
    Remind me what regiment was stationed at La Mon , Kingsmills etc?

    What reason did the Army have to hate Roman Catholics? I’m unaware of anti popery classes at Catterick or Sandhurst.

    Did they think Brian Robinson was on his way to mass and killed him in error?

  • Submariner

    BluesJazz (profile) 5 July 2013 at 2:48 pm
    Submariner
    Remind me what regiment was stationed at La Mon , Kingsmills etc?

    I never claimed that the IRA did not involve itself in sectarian killing as it did. However it was not as you claimed its main focus. I hold no brief for the IRA but the statistics on who they killed do not back up your claim. For example i had a close friend murdered by the IRA they killed him because he was a policeman not because of his religion.

  • Alias

    The morally bankrupt ‘argument’ that it is okay to murder someone if they have a British state job is an argument that the wee Butcher Boy from the Bogside and his acolytes would be better served not advancing now that he has a nice, pensionable British state job.

  • Submariner

    It just happened to be a happy coincidence that the overwhelming majority of them were Protestants thereby allowing that particular sectarian murder gang to pretend that they ‘holier than thou’ murderers.

    Again you perpetuate the PUL myth that the IRA killed members of the security forces because of their religion they did not. They did not care who was wearing the uniform the fact that they where wearing it was all the reason they needed.

  • Submariner

    @ Alias who claimed it was OK certainly none of the above posts have. Perhaps you would be better to read the posts before committing your pre conceived ideas to print.

  • JR

    On the contary Alias, it is Bluejazz who is arguing that it OK to murder someone if the guy behind the trigger is the employment of the British state.

  • gendjinn

    “The paras celebrated the deaths with a particularly sick montage erected in Palace Barracks. It was a ten foot mock-up of an Astra car with a papier mache head stuck in the drivers window. Red paint marked the fatal head wound; bullet holes riddled the car body. Pinned up besides the car was a poster which read:

    “Vauxhall Astra – Built by robots, driven by joyriders, stopped by A Company”.”

    Caught on film by news crew during visit by politician.

  • Alias

    “Again you perpetuate the PUL myth that the IRA killed members of the security forces because of their religion they did not.”

    On the contrary, you perpetuate the PIRA myth that they murdered people solely because they were employed by the British state. If that were true, Marty and the rest of that ilk would have to commit suicide since they are all employed by the British state. They were just sociopaths playing at little pretend soldiers in order to disguise the true nature of their pathological condition. Far from being disgraced by the massacre of Protestants at Kingsmils, Brian Keenan was a leading member of that particular murder gang.

    The Shinners use their online toadies to perpetuate the propaganda that they were a more respectable class of sectarian murderer than their loyalist counterparts. That in itself is sectarian. This moral bankruptcy is a claim that it is acceptable to murder people based on which state they belong to but not acceptable to murder people based on which Church they belong to. This is just one sewer rat looking down on another sewer rat.

  • Submariner

    I have seldom seen so much bullshit crammed into two paragraphs Alais but you managed it. I have other matters to attend to now but i will answer your post when i get the chance. BTW that is the second time you have claimed that either myself or another poster has claimed that is is acceptable to killer people due to their state/job,that is most certainly not the case.