Making plans for Mid-Ulster, never mind plans for Nigel

With a handful of potential candidates already rejected, Nigel Lutton’s name came very late to the unionist party leaders and constituency associations.

from BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21462044While known to individuals in both the DUP and UUP, he wasn’t a high profile figure with a front-line political future in front of him.

Martin McGuinness indicated that he would be standing down as MP for Mid Ulster on 11 June 2012, giving plenty of time for candidate selection processes within parties and behind-the-scenes conversations about unity candidates.

Instead, a day or so before the selection meetings – and a week before the deadline to hand in nomination papers to EONI – a unity an agreed candidate finally emerged who was acceptable to DUP, UUP and TUV.

The (US) Republican Party learned a lesson about accelerated candidate selection and suitability through the choice of Sarah Palin as running mate for John McCain. Nigel Lutton can’t choose his relations, and this morning’s Belfast Telegraph story (page 17) about his uncle Joey (who belonged to the UVF and was jailed for the 1976 murder of Frederick McLoughlin) will likely not harm his vote. But his shyness of the media does dog his campaign.

If unionist parties had been serious about challenging Sinn Fein’s hold on the seat, they had plenty of time in the long nights over the summer for a sustained period of door-knocking, leafleting and campaigning. [Feel free to correct me if there is evidence that Mid Ulster constituents were consistently bombarded with political activity and electoral motivation since June.]

Instead, they threw away the slim chance they had of convincing voters to go out of their way to turn up at a polling station next Thursday to make a difference to the result.

(If you haven’t seen Nigel Lutton, the News Letter caught him on video for six minutes while he was in Johnston Press’ Craigavon office doing his online webchat.)

We’re only making If only we made plans for Nigel
He has his no future in a British steel Parliament
We’re only making plans for Nigel
Nigel’s whole future candidacy is as good as sealed over

Nigel is not outspoken
He likes to speak
And loves to be spoken to
Nigel is happy in But not to the media about his work

,

  • Banjaxed

    This farce reminds me of the old poem:

    The other day upon the stair
    I met a man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    I wish to God he’d go away.

    Either that or the old movie:

    ‘The Man Who Never Was’

    Come on, Nigel, let’s hear from you!

  • carl marks

    I still haven’t been able to figure out the logic of putting up a non entity as a “agreed “ candidate, but it does show us that Basil was right unionist unity means you get the lowest common denominator.
    All in favour of it myself, could I suggest that UPC becomes the agreed candidate for east Belfast and Ardoyne Unionist for north Belfast and I’m sure we can find a ballot paper for SOS to add his name to!

  • Keithbelfast
  • Mick Fealty

    Just to add to the intrigue, how comes Francie pulled out of the View on Thursday? Not fancy his chances with Patsy without a Unionist aunt Sally to wind up?

    NIgel is clearly no politician, and has no hope. But he does serve the needs of OFMdFM nicely in the sense that he’s helped make this campaign ‘disappear’, and with it any slender possibility that we might get a chance to review how well SF and the DUP have treated Mid Ulster…

  • Drumlins Rock

    Firstly, surely the fact that it proved difficult to find an agreed candidate hi-lights just how distant the Unionist parties remain even in Mid Ulster.

    Having spend Saturday canvasing with Nigel in Magherafelt and Castledawson I found him very approachable, and saw him give interviews to both BBC & UTV , didn’t seem so camera shy then but was keen to get back to knocking doors.

    It is true Nigel might not have chosen his relations, but I have been told he clearly made his own choice not to go down that road, dispite coming under pressure to do so.

    In the real world the general response I got was relief that at least a slim chance existed of getting an MP, with some saying they wern’t intending to vote otherwise. Yes turnout will almost certainly be low, but that is the only hope of getting close at all.

    As for the rest of Alan’s article, Patsy McGlone was only selected a month ago, without any complex negotiations required, and his idea of canvasing last summer is idiotic pie in the sky nosence.

  • A weekend of press coverage on Eastleigh and now this … all of a sudden, what is it with all these Nigels?

    Somehow, as a forename, it does’t seem very Mid-Ulster.

  • newgal

    This couldn’t be the same Belfast Telegraph that campaigned publicly in support of the Belfast Agreement which threw open prison door setting committed, cold blooded terrorists free and supported the inserting into the heart of government their political representatives – members of a political party that whooped and cheered as the Provos slaughtered men,women and children on the grounds of their religion.

    Could it?

    But then I suppose it is of absolutely vital importance to the public interest that the fact that a person who has worked for the betterment of victims of the Troubles from all sides of the community when he worked for Wave Trauma Care, I suppose it is absolutely vital that everybody be told that he had an uncle who got involved in paramilitarism.

    This is just another example of the Belfast Telegraph doing what it does – scrambling over every dung heap in the Province looking for an opportunity to sleaze monger about anything or anyone that is from a mainstream Unionist, traditional evangelical or socially conservative position.

  • Turgon

    We see here an interesting juxtaposition of facts: those noted and those omitted. This article points out Mr. Lutton being a second degree relation of a convicted terrorist. It neglects to mention that a closer, first degree relative, (his father) was murdered by terrorists. A crime for which there has been no convictions.

  • Turgon – it was a post about the selection process and the late campaigning, rather than the well-known tragedy in the candidate’s close family. The Belfast Telegraph report was only mentioned tangentially as it was in today’s news, and will “not harm his vote” unlike “his shyness of the media”.

  • Drumlins Rock

    BTW, it is amzing how indignant the press become when they think they are being snubbed, the unforgivable sin, forget the voters concentrate on giving the media what they want. We knocked alot of doors on saturday in the 4 or 5 hours it would have taken to do the slot on “The View” a few nights before. By-elections in rural areas are not won and lost in television studios but on the doorsteps.

  • Kevsterino

    Newgal, on the one hand, you appear upset with “cold blooded terrorists” and on the other are surprised people are concerned about one who “got involved with paramilitarism”.

    Double standards, much?

    His uncle’s murder conviction seems to indicate a very deep involvement indeed.

  • People should not be held to account for anything that a relative did, no matter how close. It’s just not right, no more than “The sins of the father…..”.

  • Let’s stick to the post, rather than dissecting a candidate’s family history.

    Drumlins Rock – why is it nonsense to suggest that if the PUL vote in Mid Ulster needed to increase, then a long campaign might have stood a chance of increasing turnout at next week’s poll. If the numbers were the other way around, I can imagine SF bringing teams from all across Ireland to “get their vote out” and create a surge to get a second placed candidate over the line.

  • Kevsterino

    I agree with you Joe. The only time I’d consider it relevant would be if he would support the activity of the relative with some sort of justification of the relative’s actions. I guess all the talk about his departed father got people talking about his relatives.

  • Turgon

    Alan,
    Indeed I never suggested your comment was untrue. However, Mr. Lutton’s main connection to the Troubles is that he has been involved in victims’ groups and his father was murdered by terrorists. The fact that his cousin was a terrorist is less relevant. Indeed describing Mr. Lutton in the terms you used, although accurate, is less accurate and less relevant than calling him a victim, or saying that his father was murdered etc.

    It would be exactly analogous to calling Geraldine Finucane the sister in law of an IRA terrorist. That would be a true statement but also somewhat disingenuous. Of much more relevance is the fact that she is the widow of a solicitor murdered by loyalist terrorists.

    Describing Mr. Lutton’s father’s murder as a “tragedy in the candidate’s close family” is a further example of this. A better and indeed more accurate description would be to say that his father was murdered by the IRA, though if you feel the term murder is biased in terms of Mr. Lutton’s death (I cannot see how you could / would want to say that but if you did) you could say killed by the IRA. Either way although your comment about Nigel Lutton may be accurate it is also incomplete to the point of appearing somewhat disingenuous.

  • Drumlins Rock

    yes Alan, a surge, you don’t start a surge the summer before, of course a lot more hard work on the ground could be done, but we shall see on Thursday.

  • newgal

    Kevsterino

    not a single double standard from me whatsoever. I regard every brand and shade of terrorist – be it IRA (including all of the newer models INLA, UVF UDA and any other kind of murderous group exactly the same and would willingly cast my vote to reinstate the death penalty for all such murderers.

    So let’s get that out of the way now.

    Mr Lutton’s main contribution to the years of our terrorist past was to be robbed of a father and then to conscously refuse to go down the road of revenge or violence, but to workd through groups like Wave to help victims from right across the divide.

    But for the Belfast Telegraph he has committed the crime of not adhering to its brand of il-liberal liberalism and so every piece of dirt whether it is real, or imagined or invented will be sought out .

    The ‘Tele’ represents the printed page equivilent of the Jeremy Kyle Show or Nolan Show – the story, the headline, the scandal, the sleaze is everything – no matter if it is real or not and all the better if the person in the spotlight happens to be out of step with its ideology.

  • carl marks

    Surely if its relevant (indeed it seems to be a major part of his campaign) that his father was murdered by the IRA, after Pete and Mike all made a point of bringing it up when announced Nigel as a candidate then his other family connections are just as relevant.
    What I’m saying is you can’t bring his family into it when it suits and ignore them when it doesn’t,
    Unionists certainly don’t ignore family connections when Finucane comes up
    Interesting also are the close family connections between the RUC reserve and loyalist murder gangs!

  • Kevsterino

    The mid-ulster by election for unionists appears to be somewhat experimental. Running for MP as a first election, representing no party but an ideology, there aren’t an awful lot of comparable situations to learn from.

    Looking at past mid-ulster polls, I don’t see him having much of a chance to win the seat, but that might not be what unionists are after from this strategy. If he doesn’t exceed expectations, though, I see UUP with more egg on their face than the DUP.

  • tacapall

    Of course he wont get elected Kevsterino, thats not the purpose, the purpose is to take the wind from the sails of flag protestors by promoting unionist unity and it seems from the points above, victimhood, in an election that they know they cannot win.

  • 6crealist

    Does wee Nigel campaign on behalf of UVF victims?

  • sonofstrongbow

    If the Mid-Ulster contest is to be viewed in the context of the Troubles the choice for the electorate is stark. The son of a terrorist murder victim against a representative of a ‘party’ that celebrates that murder.

    If previous electoral contests are anything to go by it is sadly predictable where a majority of nationalist voters will place their ‘X’.

  • tacapall

    Obviously SOS you’ve already dismissed the fact that a member of his family was convicted of a sectarian murder was also a member of the UVF Glenanne Gang

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenanne_gang

    “The Glenanne gang was a loose alliance of Northern Irish loyalist extremists who carried out sectarian attacks in the 1970s against the Irish Catholic and Irish nationalist community as retaliation for the violent campaign of the Provisional IRA.[1] Most of its attacks took place in the area of County Armagh and mid-Ulster referred to as the “murder triangle” by journalist Joe Tiernan.[2] It also launched attacks elsewhere in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland.[3] The gang included soldiers of the British Army, its Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), the Mid-Ulster Brigade of the illegal paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and some Ulster Defence Association (UDA) members.[4][5] Former members have alleged it was commanded by British Military Intelligence and/or RUC Special Branch.[5][6]

    The Pat Finucane Centre has attributed 87 killings to the Glenanne gang,[7][8] including the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the Miami Showband killings, and the Reavey and O’Dowd killings.[5] A number of these attacks has been affirmed by Glenanne gang member and RUC Special Patrol Group (SPG) officer John Weir in his sworn (3 February 1999) affidavit published in the 2003 Barron Report. These were the findings of an official investigation into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings commissioned by Irish Supreme Court Justice Henry Barron.[9] The RUC Special Patrol Group was a specialised police unit tasked with counter-terrorism in Northern Ireland.

    The name “Glenanne gang” has been used since 2003 and is derived from the farm at Glenanne (near Markethill, County Armagh) that was used as the gang’s arms dump and bomb-making site.”

    Note the reference to security force membership, not all members of the security forces were involved in the activities above but neither were all Sinn Fein members either.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Tac,

    Ah you and your strawman arguments.

    I’m sure you can produce quotes from Mr Lutton where he supports the UVF? Whilst your goggling that see if you come across any Sinn Fein condemnation of his father’s murder, or indeed the wider IRA ‘campaign’.

  • Drumlins Rock

    “Does wee Nigel campaign on behalf of UVF victims?”

    I think Nigel was more involved in support and couscelling rather than campaigning, and the group he worked with most was cross-community so while I can’t quote cases I am sure from what I know of him he would give the same help and support in those situations.

  • tacapall

    “I’m sure you can produce quotes from Mr Lutton where he supports the UVF”

    Im sure I couldn’t SOS and im not suggesting he did but I am saying and im sure I could find evidence that he supported the actions of the RUC or the UDR, British army etc. Now im sure the law abiding protestant population would not support the actions of those members of the security forces mentioned above but they would still nonetheless support the RUC, UDR or the British army etc, so why in your mind should the nationalist population not have that same privilege.

  • carl marks

    sonofstrongbow (profile)
    4 March 2013 at 5:30 pm

    If the Mid-Ulster contest is to be viewed in the context of the Troubles the choice for the electorate is stark. The son of a terrorist murder victim against a representative of a ‘party’ that celebrates that murder.
    SOS you left out that other family connection you know the murdering terrorist uncle.
    If you’re going to play the family card, you will get pulled up on it!
    Unless of course you don’t regard the loyalists as terrorists, but maybe you don’t because i can’t remember you ever condemning them, funny that.

  • sherdy

    David Simpson used parliamentary privilege to point the finger of blame at Francie Molloy over the death of his relative, Nigel’s dad.
    Is David also related to Nigel’s uncle Joey, the UVF man, and did he ever use parliamentary privilege to point the finger at him for murder?

  • sonofstrongbow

    Tac,

    You’re tripping over your own words. You have already, quite properly, noted that the security forces raison d’être was not terrorism. The same is not true of the IRA. Sinn Fein is the mouthpiece of the IRA. It has, and still does, perform the role of cheerleader for those nationalist terrorists.

    That being said I’ll refine my request. If you can find Mr Lutton supporting the illegal activities of the security forces then post that.

    CM,

    Unlike you I condemn all lawbreaking. You, as a supporter of nationalist terrorists, will I know find that concept difficult to understand.

    Now that’s not funny.

  • tacapall

    SOS the war in your own mind obviously continues, I never said the security forces raison d’être was not terrorism. There’s plenty of evidence available today that collusion between security force members and those engaged in what you would accuse others of terrorism was more than a few bad apples in fact it went to senior level. Different faiths different views I suppose when it comes to judging the past but acting the victim and thinking your actions, although similar to your enemy is somehow morally right is the pot calling the kettle black.

  • alan56

    I assume Nigel Lutton is a decent person whose intentions are honourable. But…how does one judge the motives of the larger unionist parties that chose him? He may turn out to be the hero of unionist unity or he may turn out to be the undertaker who despatches the UUP to a final resting place. These must be nervous time for Mike Nesbitt.

  • 6rrealist – Nigel is plain in his News Letter webchat

    Comment From John: Nigel has clearly come through tragic personal circumstances in the loss of his father. The area around the Moy, Canary and wider south tyrone suffered many deaths at the hands of the UVF. Will Nigel openly condemn those directly involved in those murders and recognise that victims come from all sides of the community, including republican families.

    Nigel Lutton: All forms of terrorism were and are wrong. I condemn all acts of terror including those of recent days where families have been targeted with crude devices.

  • babyface finlayson

    carl marks
    Francie Molloy is a candidate.An accusation directly at him is surely relevant and deserves examination.
    On the other hand Joey Lutton is not a candidate.
    Nigel Lutton is a candidate and his own actions and history deserve examination. His uncle is not relevant
    Now if Nigel Lutton had been accused of killing a relative of Francie Molloy that would be the equivalent.

  • Mick Fealty

    My mama done told there would be days like this… http://goo.gl/jk0Uk

  • Mick Fealty @ 8:35 pm:

    About the only uplifting moment in this whole dire exchange of the deaf.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Its speaks volumes that the press has yet to mention the real reason for the by-election in Mid-Ulster, Gerry’s purge of the assembly to remove any possible threat to his leadership, primarily aimed at Gildernew and Murphy, and possibly taking Marty down a little, it also could push both Molloy & McLoughlin a bit further to the edges.

  • Granni Trixie

    There is no reason why a victim of the troubles should not like anybody get involved in the formal political arena. However in this particular case we seem to have a candidate who appears to be allowing himself to being used as moral capital by the likes of Mike Nesbitt (not for the first time using what he learnt as a victims commissioner). as a rule I do not think that people should caste up what your relatives did in the troubles except that in this case it is relevant given that Nesbitt and co are using his victims status to score points against Francie Molloy.

    One thing that puzzles me. I had assumed that this outing (as a candidate) was part of a longer term strategy to build up Mr Luttons public profile for the next election. if so,they have blown it as he has demonstrated that he lacks whatever it takes to use the media to advantage. doesn’t research show that voter recognition is a key factor in influencing how people vote?

    Btw,new gal, I cannot agree with you about the Tele. Infact it is refreshing to have a cross community perspective. If you have an axe to grind I’d be careful as ‘blaming the media’ to support your argument tends to get you nowhere.

  • carl marks

    SOS
    CM,

    “Unlike you I condemn all lawbreaking. You, as a supporter of nationalist terrorists, will I know find that concept difficult to understand.

    Now that’s not funny.”

    of course when your the glaring faults in your argument are pointed out you make up a insult about the person who showed you up.
    But i will give you a chance please point out where i have supported any terrorist group Nationalist or otherwise. Or is it as i suspect you believe every nationalist is a terrorist after all you are on record as stating that Catholics are just being childish when they take offence at being called Fenians.

  • Rory Carr

    Its speaks volumes that the press has yet to mention the real reason for the by-election in Mid-Ulster…

    Well at least, Drumlins Rock, it strongly indicates that the press have little or no confidence that such speculation is other than the merest hogwash.

    Nevertheless, if you feel that you can convince us to the contrary, why I bet Mick might even allow you a whole thread (or two) to yourself in which to develop your thesis.

  • Kevsterino

    @newgal, in your estimation, what is the ideology of the Belfast Telegraph?

  • Rory Carr

    Apologies for the unintended emphasis caused by typographical error. I assure readers that it was not a crafty appeal that the press take note of my thoughts on the matter.

  • carl marks

    babyface finlayson
    Nigel Lutton is a candidate and his own actions and history deserve examination. His uncle is not relevant.

    I agree with you i also think his father is not relevent, However it was not me who brought his relatives into the discussion, it was unionists, i merely pointed out that if his family history is important then lets have a honest look at it.
    and by the way i never mentioned Francie Molloy, an since i dont have a vote in this election, i dont vote SF in elections i vote in, and am not impressed with Mr Molloy why do you engage with me about him?

  • sonofstrongbow

    CM

    Who knows what you support? Personally I wouldn’t trust you to sit on a toilet seat the right way round.

    You’ve pedalled a lie about what I posted for a few days now, which you have put up again, although somewhat changed. I thought I’d go down that route myself just for the craic.

    Enjoy.

  • babyface finlayson

    carl marks
    I not suggesting you are a Sinn Fein supporter,but I think you missed my point.
    I think Nigel Lutton’s father Eric is relevant directly to Francie Molloy. If there was no accusation against Molloy there would be no excuse for unionists to bring in Eric Lutton.
    Nigel Lutton is not alleged to have killed anyone or to have anything to do with his uncles actions.
    It is the actions alleged or otherwise of the candidates that is relevant.
    In a nutshell his uncle is not relevant but his father is.
    Sorry for being convoluted.

  • Mick Fealty

    Dismal Malcolm. Just as it was intended.

  • carl marks

    SOS
    “And while I’m on that particular subject why is it that nationalists take such offence at the us of ‘Fenian’?”

    Your words 4 February 2013 at 4:48 pm
    Now I’m glad that you have admitted you’re a liar maybe now you would care to point out where I lied about you (in light of the above quote) or was that another lie.
    or you could stop digging, think the holes deep enough now.

  • carl marks

    babyface finlayson

    apart from someone hiding behind parlimentry privilige (and we all know that is abused more often than not) i can see no other proof, have you any or can w just make it up as we go along?

  • Granni Trixie

    Baby face

    I do not agree with your logic: if a candidate uses his victims status on the basis of what happened to his family (ESP as
    another candidate is accused of being involved in what happened) then, the context of Ni situation,the
    public is entitled to know the whole picture about his family.
    Put it another way – should someone stand for election and should they chose not to bring into their personal narrative as a main part of their case to the public, then what happened to their family is incidental and they are entitled to be judged on their suitability on other terms.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The comments attacking Lutton for the actions of his relatives are shameful, just as are the comments making similar judgments of Pat Finuncane.

  • carl marks

    Comrade Stalin
    I am not attacking him over his family history what i see is unionism brought his family into it but unionism wants to be selective about what parts of the family history we should pay attention to.
    I believe both his father and his uncle are irrelevant but in his case as the song says you can’t have one without the other.

  • sonofstrongbow

    CM,

    I continued directly with these questions:

    ‘Were the Fenians not stalwart (though unsuccessful) nationalist activists? Should it not be an accolade for a nationalist to be called a Fenian?

    Selective quoting out of context Carl?

    Tut, tut. Your pants are on fire.

  • Kevsterino

    SoS, I’m sure it depends on who is calling me a fenian. An old friend at the pub or a snarling RUC man (or woman). It depends.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Kev,

    I’d take the most pleasure from someone thinking they were insulting me by using something I took pride in. It would be a case of right back at you without saying a word.

    PS, the RUC, snarling or otherwise, ‘left the stage’ some time ago.

  • SK

    Lutton opted not to put his father’s murder at the centre of his campaign; it’s only fair that the UVF skeleton remains firmly in the same closet.

    The problem is not the donkey wrapped in a union flag- it’s the people who did the wrapping. It’s the Robinsons and the Nesbitts. It’s the Campbells and the McCauslands. ‘Moderate’ Mike has done pretty much everything short of printing election posters with the phrase “PROD” emblazoned above Nigel Lutton’s smiling face, but there he is tonight, sitting in his old chair at UTV, telling the great Ulster public that it’s time for normal politics to prevail.

    Normality is a non-starter so long as men like him continue to be taken seriously.

  • babyface finlayson

    carl marks
    (At the risk of another sarky comment from Mick)
    “apart from someone hiding behind parlimentry privilige (and we all know that is abused more often than not) i can see no other proof, have you any or can w just make it up as we go along?”
    I know nothing about the accusations. I think, as you do,it was probably an abuse of parliamentary privilege. If David Simpson has any evidence he should put up or shut up.
    The point I am making is an accusation against Molloy is now in the public domain, so it is not unreasonable he should be asked about it.
    No accusation has been made about Nigel Lutton, therefore his uncle his aunt and his 2nd cousin thrice removed are not relevant.
    You say
    “unionism wants to be selective about what parts of the family history ”
    Yes they do. The part that is alleged to be relevant to Francie Molloy,

  • FDM

    @babyface finlayson

    Babyface you must have the flexibility of a baby. Those contortions you are at [12:01 am] could cause someone a mental hernia.

    Its a simple game, complicated by people like yourself.

    We have courts to decide on the guilt or innocence of people. We have thresholds [criminal: Beyond reasonable doubt, civil: balance of probabilities] to guide us.

    Why is the rule of law not enough for you.

    Or is the rule of law like democracy for people like you, only convenient when it serves your purposes.

    In my opinion the law should be strengthened to make it possible for people like Molloy to claim civil damages from people like you who make accusations [or repeat them] without having anything inconvenient like evidence.

    That would soon shut you up and not before time.

  • sonofstrongbow

    “We have courts to decide on the guilt or innocence of people.” Yet the soldiers involved in ‘Bloody Sunday’ are “murderers”?

    When did that court case take place?

  • FDM

    @sonofcider

    “We have courts to decide on the guilt or innocence of people.” Yet the soldiers involved in ‘Bloody Sunday’ are “murderers”?

    ————————————–

    An excellent example of how the UK government used the police, the army, the prosecution service and the courts to subvert the course of justice.

    I understand that investigations are currently underway and will I hope see every single soldier [alive] who opened fire on Bloody Sunday and their commanding officers brought before the courts on a charge of murder.

    Let the courts decide their guilt or innocence in each case.

    Let the rule of law prevail.

    However please feel free to send what I have written to the MOD, the soldiers themselves, their representatives or indeed their commanding officers. I look forward to them taking me to court to repudiate my charge of murder in Derry on Bloody Sunday.

    Different from them, I don’t think I will be seeing the inside of a court anytime soon.

  • sonofstrongbow

    I doubt the MOD would bother pursuing the likes of you, if for no other reason than they are not so prickly as the average Shinner.

    Indeed I don’t mind how often nationalists bandy about the word ‘murderer’ when referring to the troops involved. Although saddened that the families will not have their day in court and the rule of law will not be able to run its course due to the soldiers’ right to a fair trial being prejudiced it will serve as a lesson to all that such lazy unfounded pronouncements are, at best, unhelpful.

    Having already established that your grasp of basic legal concepts is nonexistent I fear that the lesson will be lost on you.

    Nevertheless find yourself a good ergonomic bed and lay yourself and your twisted logic down and reflect.

  • FDM

    @sonofcoverups

    Lets have these heroes from the parachute regiment up in front of judge and jury and let justice be done upon them.

    I think the broadest possible prosecution would be appropriate in the circumstances since global perjury by the British soldiers was one of the main comments in Savilles report, when he stated…

    “all the paratroopers involved knowingly put forward false accounts in order to seek to justify their firing”.

    Get them all in front of a judge, let them answer for their murderous acts and their lies.

    Murder of British citizens and perjury related to the cover-up of such surely must have one outcome, proper and due legal process.

    “the soldiers’ right to a fair trial ”

    They will get a fair trial, I insist upon it. Which is more than those murderous dogs gave the unarmed civilians they cold bloodily executed in 1972.

    “Your crime is your Irishness, your sentence is death.”

  • sonofstrongbow

    @patheticinsults

    Ok, but really there was no need to confirm your lack of understanding in such a spit-flecked frenzy.

  • FDM

    @sonoflawbreakingandcondoningmurder

    I know I just go into a frenzy when I expect a person to be answerable for their actions.

    What a crazy notion of making laws for all of us and then expecting them to be applied equally.

    Oh but thats right these particular soldiers were “only following orders” when they shot all those defenceless British citizens dead, mostly in the back and/or with their arms raised in the air in many cases.

    Hence not a crime at all really, given they were “only following orders”.

    Now where have I heard that “only following orders” defence before?

  • carl marks

    SOS
    you called me a lair because i said that in your blindness you could not see that calling a nationalist a fenian is offensive, I proved you did indeed say it, you then get personal, have you thought of becoming the next agreed unionist candidate.
    After all you fit Basil’s description of what you get when you have unionist unity!
    babyface finlayson
    No accusation has been made about Nigel Lutton, therefore his uncle his aunt and his 2nd cousin thrice removed are not relevant.
    At the risk of repeating myself and to use your language, Nigel’s family was brought into the public domain by Peter and Mike the day he lodged his papers.
    I have no problem with his family history but if the unionist parties wish to use his family history as a canvassing device then i believe we should look at all of it and not just what Pete and Mike wish us to look at.
    As for the accusations against Molloy, no proof has been forwarded; I would ignore unproven accusations against Nigel so why should I give credence to those labelled against Molloy.
    Ask yourself if an unproven slur is made against Nigel would you give any credence to it?

  • sonofstrongbow

    CM,

    Do you know what ‘?’ means? I questioned WHY a nationalist SHOULD take offence at being called a Fenian? Funnily enough I am aware that some unionists/Prods/whatever use it intending to be offensive. However the user’s motivation was not the point.

    You were unable to answer that question.

    I conclude that you must suffer from a variant of the Stockholm Syndrome. You, as a nationalist, are referred to in terms of a group of nationalist activists from the past. People who have had been celebrated in song within nationalist culture.

    The person using the term means it as an insult. You, ignoring the historical context of the term, take on the mores of the abuser and also regard the term as offensive. Strange. What is it? Self loathing, unable to break free from your victim mentality? Who knows.

    I’ll now take a similar example from my side of the fence. The word ‘Planter’ is used pejoratively by nationalists about unionists. The more I think about it I reclaim the word and defuse the intended insult. I’m proud to be called a Planter.

    I see a movement building: substitute Planter for Sparticus!

    The Planters arrived in Ireland, built model towns, cut down the forests to plant crops and drained the bogs (putting manners on the locals was just a sideline). I celebrate their pioneering fortitude.

    So come on old man. Off your knees, take back your heritage, turn the insult back on the would-be abuser.

    But wait! I can’t see it happening. Too long the bearer of MOPE conditioning. You’ll be already scanning this post to find the barbs. I fear another whinge from you is forming even as I press the ‘Submit Comment’ tab. Now……

  • babyface finlayson

    FDM
    “In my opinion the law should be strengthened to make it possible for people like Molloy to claim civil damages from people like you who make accusations [or repeat them] without having anything inconvenient like evidence.”
    I think you are getting a bit carried away there. I have made no accusation of any kind. As for repeating it well it is all over the media.Would you have Molloy claim damages from the BBC ITV,Brian Feeney,Jude Collins and many more as well as me?
    I suppose you missed my comment where I said if David Simpson has any evidence he should put up or shut up.

  • babyface finlayson

    carl marks
    I think we are going round in circles on the issue of the relevance of the father compared to the relevance of the uncle.
    I suggest we agree to differ.
    On the accusation I agree they deserve no credence without evidence. I’m simply saying that as it has been made, and the media are of course going to raise it with to see what his reaction is.That is what they do.
    Molloy can play it with a straight bat as he has been doing and is right to do,so I don’t think it will cause him any real problems.

    “Ask yourself if an unproven slur is made against Nigel would you give any credence to it?”
    Of course not,but I would expect the media to be putting it to him, as with Molloy.

  • Thread well off topic and closed.