Parades Commission manages to annoy everyone over Ardoyne decision…

So, Ardoyne braces itself for another twelfth, and all the Orangemen are now expected to get back before the rest of the marchers even leave the field… It seems the Parades Commission has pleased no one…

  • Drumlins Rock

    The inaptitude of the current Parades Commission is startling, surely some of them can add up how long it takes to parade to the field and back again. From dictating what Hymns are acceptable to writing letters to churches that go well beyond their remitt, biased decisions is one thing, but incredibly stupid ones is another thing altogether.

  • lamhdearg2

    I will assume you where away and so lucky enough to miss the edwin, thread mick.

  • Alias

    Well I guess is Marty can dismiss one quango on the matter of equal rights, loyalists dismiss another…

    They should use a ‘park and ride’ method to bus them in and out. That should cut the return journey to minutes.

  • tyrone_taggart

    Drumlins Rock (profile)

    “The inaptitude of the current Parades Commission is startling”

    The need for them is what is “startling”!

    How about the OO being able to march were they want but having to pay everyone’s direct and indirect costs?

  • andnowwhat

    I agree that a decision that pisses of all parties is as good as it gets. I think the PA have pulled of a fast one here, rather than being inept

  • dwatch
  • Chris Donnelly

    Drumlin
    Imagine seeking to prevent bigoted bandsmen provoking their catholic neighbours by trying to ensure they don’t blast out The Sash outside St Matthews Catholic Church- and only days after loyalists had attacked the minority catholic community of the Short Strand. Yes, it’s the Parades Commission that came out of that situation looking bad eh….

    Mick seems to have ‘missed’ the significance of the latest intervention by UDA Leader and Former Loyal Order Luca Brasi, Jackie McDonald, who has once again questioned the rationale behind contentious Loyal Order parades seeking to go where they’re patently unwanted.

    We’ve been down this road before and doubtlessly will be again.

    But perhaps some thinking unionist out there (and clearly Henry Patterson believes unionists have a monopoly on intellectual discussion) will be able to articulate a case for squaring support for the supremacist tendencies of the Loyal Orders with a campaign to broaden the appeal of the Union…..

  • Chris Donnelly

    On the theme of novel thinking, it certainly would appear to be the case that loyalist/ unionist intransigence over this parade has worked to the advantage of the non- mainstream republicans who’ve come up with the novel strategy of a counter parade along the route whilst mainstream republicans have watched helplessly from the sidelines.

    We now have the DUP MP suggesting loyalist violence unless the Commission backs down, a move which would guarantee a significant political victory for dissident republicans were it to come to pass.

    And all because unionism refuses to deal with the reckless attitude of the Loyal Orders….

  • lamhdearg2

    Chris, are catholics the minority in the short strand.

    “We’ve been down this road before and doubtlessly will be again.”

    Thats just what I was saying to my supremacist bigoted bandsmen friends.

    Your a bit late with the spin on the short strand
    hears one I posted earlier.(july 3th)

    Did you hear talkback, if not, A community representative from the newtownards road claimed that irish nats started the trouble, when they attacted the parade, a claim that the representative from the short strand did not refute, the Newton rep then claimed the police, later agreed with him that it was Irish nats that started the trouble (by attacking the parade) but then, that the police had released a statement to the press, that said different, he then went on to say that he was considering withdrawning from working on the interface, due to the disinformation the police where putting out.

    All the short strand rep had to say was that the parade should not happen and there would be no trouble*, to which the newton rep countered, the parade will be going ahead, and Irish nat attacks will not stop it*
    * words to that effect.

    Considering the talkback item was bill as a discussion about what was being done to ease tensions, it was quite an emotionally charged spat, and along with GARCs plans for ardoyne on the 12th do not bode well for a peaceful summer.

  • andnowwhat

    Doddsy tried playing the tough guy on tonight’s UTV news whilst Gerry Kelly looked seriously pissed that the Parades Commission gave GARC recognition. This is great craic and if the lodges manage to stay within the PC ruling, that’ll be 2 great events in the world of physics in just one week.

  • Submariner

    Could some of our unionist posters explain what exactly UVF commander Winston Irrvine(thats him shoulder to shoulder with Dodds for those who dont know) has to do with a loyal order parade. I mean its only a few old harmless guys in bowler hats according to Edwin.

  • Chris Donnelly

    andnowwhat

    You’ve identified the key issue. Sinn Fein have allowed themselves to be effectively outmanoeuvred in Ardoyne by refusing to alter their strategy of simply opposing the parade and hoping for the best from the PC.

    I have suggested on Slugger before how mainstream republicans could have put it up to loyalists to demonstrate their willingness to tolerate a parade through Ballysillan at Easter as a means of developing a culture of mutual respect for political parades being hosted by ‘the other’ in this part of north Belfast. In the event of loyalists refusing to support the hosting of such a parade, republicans would have an open and shut case to take to the PC regarding the 12th July parade through Ardoyne interface.

  • andnowwhat

    I heard the the Talkback. It was Nial and Jim Wilson. THe police and Niall conceded that a solitary nationalist kicked off at the start of the parade. Niall said he would ask about any other cases. The police said the the trouble kicked off after parade in Castlereagh street.

    I think it was the next day or the day after that (pretty sure it was the latter) that Nolan recounted having driven up through the area on the night the parade took place and seeing a lot of people with booze.

    For those who don’t know, Jim Wilson was the loyalist rep who whinged the radio, the day after the people of the Short Strand beat a group of up to 100, tooled up, UVF men in to a loyalist area and refused to address that someone from his own community almost shot a police woman (hitting a landrover) that night

  • andnowwhat

    Chris Donnelly

    Compare the tone and implication of Dodds with the crap that Kelly came off with. Unionism is not at peace. Their war is not over, far from it.

    I wonder how many CNRs the shinners are willing to piss off per extrra seat in the Dail?

  • andnowwhat

    Submariner

    Sure, the DUPpers have nay bother with the UVF. Don’t you remember Peter’s teaparty for them last year in the Stormont?

  • lamhdearg2

    sub, Mr Irvine is wearing his North and west belfast parades forum, spokes person hat.

    Mods, Is it ok for me (or others) to name folk as ira/inla commanders, based presumably on nothing but press spec.

  • tacapall

    I doubt if Owen Patterson will interfere again and overturn the PC ruling, that would add insult to injury with the two fingered gesture to his own judiciary with the re-arrest of Martin Corey. Its another likely line in the sand moment for Unionism,

  • andnowwhat

    Lamhdearg2

    Were it not for the ability to make unfounded accusations of a certain republican being in the IRA, a certain blogger would be left almost bereft

  • lamhdearg2

    tacapall, it will be left to the psni commander on the ground. we are back to biggest stick. that seems to be the way the parades com work.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Here’s Nigel Dodds, repeating his trick of years past, making a veiled threat of violence.

    It is completely outrageous that unionist politicians can get away with talking up the violent consequences of a political decision. If a Sinn Féiner said “there may be violence” Nigel would be first out of the blocks condemning it.

    When are unionists going to stop fanning the flames of violence for their own political purposes ? When are they going to back away from the loyalist paramilitaries and rioters and say “we want nothing to do with any trouble” ?

  • andnowwhat

    WOW Comrade Stalin. Are you suggesting a split with the DUP’s military wing?

  • Comrade Stalin

    lamhdearg:

    tacapall, it will be left to the psni commander on the ground. we are back to biggest stick. that seems to be the way the parades com work.

    Indeed. Can we now please finally drop the pretence that unionism is committed to exclusively peaceful and democratic means and that it will justify resorting to violence when it is unhappy with the lawful decision-making processes of the country ?

  • lamhdearg2

    comrade by “we” you dont mean me, or you.

    I am committed to my job and working for a living, to provide for my kin, however if i go to work tomorrow and my boss slaps my face, well I will slap him back.

  • This alas is the real Norn Iron. Later this week we will have a sham fight but really for 11 months of any year we have Sham Reconciliation.
    Peter Robinson goes to a GAA match. And the public face of Norn Iron is extremely rosy. But DUP men (excepting a Mayor in North Antrim) dont really take that seriously.
    Likewise Martin McGuinness shakes hands with a lady and we are supposed to get excited. The media waxes lyrical about new beginnings.
    All as much nonsense as Titanic Exhibition and Irish Open Golf.

    What is happening at Ardoyne and Crumlin is the real Norn Iron. And unfortunately too many people have got seduced by the “we are all in a new era” narrative.

  • lamhdearg2

    when are Irish Nationalist going to stop spitting on and throwing golfballs and the like at the Orange part of their nation, every time that orange part passes by.

    A quick look at the history of the so called ardoyne protests, will show you where the violence has come from.

  • anne warren

    I’m glad I won’t be in NI this year over the 12th. Last year was bad enough and 2012 is shaping up to be worse!

    The Parades Commission have a thankless task and unlimited patience. Let’s hope they made the right decision.

    Personally speaking I have no patience with mindless intransigeance

  • andnowwhat

    Fitz

    You forgot the “what’s with the we keemosabee” that Robo pulled in the direction of Marty in the whataboutery (we seriously need an abbreviation for that) over the Bloody Sunday prosecution.

    Truth is that the shinners look like an abused puppy at the heels of its abusing master.

  • andnowwhat

    Anne Warren

    Welcome back. I seriously value your perspective from outside NI.

  • anne warren

    thanks Andnowwhat. What a nice compliment.
    Posting depends on so many things for me – work, time, whereabouts, whether I think I can add a useful comment or not.
    I suppose I should make space just to pass the time of day and say Hello! I’m still here!

  • Mister_Joe

    The ruling of the Parades Commission sends a clear message. Triumphalism does not need to be “demonstrated” twice in a day. Once is enough.

  • Comrade Stalin

    fitz,

    You’re just too cynical. Something gets into the air in July and unionists start to go apeshit. I remember going for a few pints with a self-described unionist a few years ago and he told me himself he felt the tension creeping into his bones when the calendar month rolled over.

    I don’t accept that all this tension and bullshit are the totality of what we do in politics here, although the tension is certainly culpable in this particular discussion. I have to admit that reading through the contributions here and in other threads I feel angrier than at any other time I can think of in recent years. Not so much about the rights or wrongs of marching, but because I did expect better leadership from senior politicians.

  • ranger1640

    Chris,
    “We now have the DUP MP suggesting loyalist violence unless the Commission backs down”

    Can you give the point at which Nigel Dodds/DUP MP suggests Loyalist violence unless the parades commission backs down???

    http://www.u.tv/News/Pressure-mounts-over-Ardoyne-rulings/f20fe93e-f6ae-4ee4-94e9-15737e7bcfdf

  • Comrade Stalin

    I said “culpable” when I meant “palpable”.

    ranger, Dodds said :

    What they’ve done is entirely counter-productive. They’ve undermined the prospect of getting any permanent solution and greatly increased the prospect of violence on the streets.”

    That is a threat. It would be a threat if Gerry Adams said it. It’s a threat when Nigel Dodds says it.

  • andnowwhat

    Anne Warren

    I always struggle to find a GB comparison of an OO march in a nationalist area and how local authorities would act. The OO are so proud of their Britishness but I can’t see what they are reflected in modern Britain. It’s the nearest I can get to think of the proposed EDL march through a an area of Bradford with a well known population of Muslims. Look what happened there.

    Of course, we then have the stupidity of an executive minister marching in Drumcree which will clearly add fervour to the dissident cause which known to be in the area. What level of intelligence is that?

    We also have Nelson Mc Causland complaining about an attack on a loyalist on his Facebook page ad yet there is no evidence that I have seen that this attack even took place. Has the man no sense at all?

    It is encumbent on every single politician here, of whatever shade, to think about the consequences of their every word, their every action and be held to account if and when there are consequences. They never do

  • lamhdearg2

    “Something gets into the air in July and unionists start to go apeshit”
    dont know about the unionists but
    its the spittle and golfballs that do it for me.

  • andnowwhat

    Comrade Stalin

    I don’t feel angrier but I’m pretty pissed that there is such a lack of representation against the actions of the OO that the only voice I can hear is dissidents and a few very good SDLP guys.

  • ranger1640

    In the interview Dee Fennell of GARC, admitted/stated that the area is a shared area!!!

    So the Loyal Orders have their 100m, 3 minuet parade along this shared road and GARC have there parade and everybody goes home happy!!!! Simple’s.

    No need for 3 days and nights of republican violence aimed at the psni.

  • lamhdearg2

    andnowwhat,nelsons claimed attack was on the westland road, the police agree the attack took place, they just cannot bring themselves to accuse irish nats of sectarianism, they do this quite often, attacks on orange halls are “crimanal damage” when the attackers write kill and huns, and that sort of thing, I am just glad the Nelson is their to highlight the police covering the attacks up.

  • andnowwhat

    Lamhdearg.

    There’s a guy talking about the attack (he’s a loyalist) on another site and he cannot produce any evidence. I’ve Googled it and can find sod all. If Nelson cannot substantiate what he is saying on Facebook, he should not put it out there.

  • andnowwhat

    Ranger.

    What Dee said was that the loyalists said it was a shared area and had no basis to object to a GARC protest in the area.

    That’s a different thing and you know it. I can link the vidoe if you’d like

  • ranger1640

    Comrade,

    can you give a link where Dodds said to day there was a threat of Loyalist violence???

  • lamhdearg2

    I just remembered I read it in the news letter, you wont have seen it, by the way andhowwhat, following nelson on facebook, and I thought I was a sad case, insert smiley. Goodnight all.

  • anne warren

    In reply to Andnowwhat
    “The OO are so proud of their Britishness but I can’t see what they are reflected in modern Britain”
    As an Englishwoman I feel confident saying their anachronistic sectarianism has no place in modern Britain.
    Members of the OO will no doubt object, cite marches in Scotland, England, Canada etc.
    To be quite honest they are an embarrassment.
    They would be a quaint tradition, rather eccentric but let them get on with it, they’re doing no harm , doesn’t bother me etc were it not for their awful sectarianism, their supremacist mentality and pseudo-military marching (walking), where they are not wanted, which they are not prepared to give up
    At least this is what I have seen in Belfast.

    As far as regards the comparison with the EDL I suppose it is valid enough.
    I would prefer that English nationalism were not the preserve of the extreme right. but that’s another discussion!

  • ranger1640

    Andnowwhat,

    Fennell, said that they (GARC) had received overwhelming support for their plans. So the overwhelming republican view must be that the 100m of the shops on the Crumlin road are a shared area. Nice to see a republican admit this, that’s because it is the facts.

  • andnowwhat

    Thank you for that Anne.

    I think that the wearing of the bowler hat epitomises the out of date conception of Britishness within loyalism and a portion of unionism. At best, it’s a Britishness that is long forgotten, at best, its a Britishness that’s best forgotten.

    As for the EDL, they proclaim to be anti nothing but pro British/English. They also are very hot at denying the actions of those on their fringe, whilst not strongly denouncing them.

    Earlier I watched a video that was filmed in Glasgow where more than 2 dozen police vehicles had to be brought in at an OO march. I Googled the incident and something like 30 people were arrested. My sister has lived in a little town in Ontario, Canada for 40 years and I used to spend my summers there. They always had a 12th parade every year but the local council removed the right to hold it after the Drumcree dispute.

    The OO belong with the AOH or the Sealed Knot and fair play to them, knock yourselves out guys but keep it to yourselves. The OO is welcome to the city centre of Belfast on the 12th but they must do so in a way that engeders respect. One cannot demand respect, It can only be earned by one’s actions and much (because the vast majority of lodges get it) of the OO are falling way, way short

  • Mister_Joe

    …cite marches in (Scotland, England,) Canada etc.

    Our Canadian national TV showed their Toronto march last year. Exactly as Poots said, a few elderly gentlemen, looking lost, no band, and Torontonians scratching their heads in puzzlement. Years ago it was a big Toronto event, so maybe there’s hope for the future.

  • andnowwhat

    Ranger

    You didn’t address what I said. They didn’t say that they claim it is a shared area, they said that loyalists said it was and thus they had no basis to object to a GARC protest.

  • andnowwhat

    Hey Joe (we’re ya goin’ with that gun in your hand)

    My nephews live near Ottawa and they formed a band that plays a mixture of Irish and Canadian (shanty style stuff). They love right on the shore of lake Ontario and had a really good restaurant. Like most in their town, they had to close. I’d give you more detail bit it’s the oul NI thing

  • Mister_Joe

    andnowwhat,

    It’s a weird thing (maybe not) but I visited India about 15 years ago and I was amazed at how many of their musical melodies sounded like traditional Irish. Same thing then happened 10 years ago when I was in Africa. Shared heritage?

  • ranger1640

    Now now Andnowwhat, Fennell also said that the parades commission also said it was a shared road.

    If its not a shared road, then it must be exclusively republican road. Are we now to understand that republicans now endorse apartheid on the Crumlin road.

    How does that fit in with republican principals, and the republican mantra of “an Ireland or equals”?

    As it says in the cherished republican proclamation states,
    “where guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally”!

    Except if your a prod in Ardoyne and an member of the Loyal Orders.

  • andnowwhat

    Joe.

    There’s a lot of shared things musically. I’ve spent a fair time of and on in Hong Kong and (as the Chieftains showed) there’s incredible commonality within musical structures with Irish music.

    I don’t know when you were last here (none of my bee’s wax) but traditional sessions are mostly played by young ones. They’re miles upon mile of those of my generation. They’re scarily serious about their music and culture and there’s a thread on a site that I frequent, by one of them, that attacks the afore mentioned Chieftains for daring to be light hearted when they play.

  • galloglaigh

    Ranger you seem to have a way of turning someone’s words to suit your own narrative. It is clear that anw is stating the obvious. It’s as simple as this: The ‘residents’ are expressing their right to march in a shared space. In other words, if they can march, we can march. In fact, we as nationalists should promote republican parades on the 12th. Every contentious parade should be followed an hour later by a republican parade. That would really piss Nigel Dodds off!

    If ye can’t beat them – Join them!

    It’s good to see Nigel cheek by jowl with people who haven’t properly decommissioned. It OK for ‘are wans’ to have weapons…

    The DUP of late, have reverted back to their old ways. They are using situations to stoke tensions. Given that dissident republicans feed off the flames of tension – Are the DUP trying to take on dissidents? Or maybe trying to garner them support to hit Sinn Fein at the ballot box?

    That would be a bad situation.

  • Mister_Joe

    Peter Robinson: “At Ardoyne and also in Crumlin the rulings are not practical and will actually lead to lodges having their freedom to worship curtailed,”

    Worship? Don’t people usually do that in church? What planet has this man come from? Pandering to the lcd?

  • andnowwhat

    Sounds more like LSD Joe

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    If it was really about getting these boys home, we could bung them into a few taxis or a minibus. Have these luddites never heard of the industrial revolution… oh hang on…

    At least there was some good news…. Donellygroup have a huge range of new and used cars across 7 locations provincewide!

    Remember!! : Donnelly Group…. dot co dot UK!!!

  • andnowwhat

    Joe and Gall

    There’s no elections coming up. What are they at? I can see how people would go to the dissidents but I’d love to shake up the SDLP and show them the open goal. I’d have to dress in a Rangers shirt and a sash to look less republican (in the proper sense) than Sinn Fein

  • andnowwhat

    They sound a bit kefflik Charlie Sheen. Loyalists ad kefflik taxi drivers have a bad history, one that the DUP have no problems with.

  • andnowwhat

    Ad=and

  • Alias

    It does make you wonder if the Shinners have done a deal with the DUP to ‘reform’ the Parades Commission. The OO told Robinson (source Wikileaks) that they would meet with the Shinners on parades if the Parades Commission was abolished. While it is a reserved matter, the SoS is unlikely to veto a deal. Why else would the MNM be slanting the story to throw the Parades Commission in the frame?

  • Mister_Joe

    Being a member of the Parades Commission must be one of the most thankless tasks in N.I. But, overall, they do a good job.

  • tyrone_taggart

    lamhdearg2

    “when are Irish Nationalist going to stop spitting on and throwing golfballs and the like at the Orange part of their nation, every time that orange part passes by.”

    Some words you should think about

    Embarrassment:
    For the OO/Band parades that are actually put up with by Nationalists.

    If the nationalists in say Tyrone (you know them Republican/GAA types) organised to stop parades OO/Band how many would take place?

    Blasphemy:
    I will go and pray to my God then afterwards I will go and march were I am not wanted?

    Stupid:
    “DUP North Antrim MLA Mervyn Storey said that while the commission did not have the power to ban a parade, Secretary of State Shaun Woodward does.

    “He should intervene and ban this. It serves no purpose for the republican community and certainly serves no purpose for the unionist community,” he said.”
    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/aug4_dissident_Republican_parade_restricted.php

  • williewombat

    lamhdearg2

    Don`t worry about TT just another thread where his total bigotery comes shining through hes right of course to link the Republican GAA types puting up with someone you don`t agree with of course to others is actually called tolerance not some TT knows much about march where I m not wanted lets apply that to everything and soon no one will be able to go out of the house.

    Go on TT give us another whine

  • tyrone_taggart

    williewombat

    “Don`t worry about TT just another thread where his total bigotery”

    Can you post up something that I have posted which shows my “bigotery”?

  • williewombat

    TT

    In fairness quite honestly the word bigot is much over used to describe people you don`t agree with these days even though people are entitled to their point of view I find nothing from you that is n`t anti British anti Orange or anti Unionist perhaps thats just the way you are. I withdraw my charge of bigotery your entitled to hold those views quite frankly I don`t care because I don`t know you or indeed know if I would want to Know you. Internet debate unlike face to face doesn`t develop subjects and people it just gives a platform to attack or defend views already held or to demonise others sincerely held views probably guilty of that myself when posting on slugger I`m told I`m quite personable by my two workmates who definitely don`t share my views and we agree that our heated and passionate debates have led to better understanding and tolerance if not agreement for us. All impersonal posting is a completely different kettle of Fish.

  • tyrone_taggart

    “I find nothing from you that is n`t anti British anti Orange or anti Unionist”

    If you cannot post up anthing I wrote which was “bigoted” then post up something I wrote which is wrong!

  • williewombat

    TT

    I won`t waste my time I`m sure your never wrong

  • tyrone_taggart

    Sorry williewombat when you attack the person and not what he wrote it shows how weak your argument is.

  • Drumlins Rock

    “Being a member of the Parades Commission must be one of the most thankless tasks in N.I. But, overall, they do a good job.”

    Like every job there are those who do it well and other that are useless, the commission changes every few years, much as I disagree with much of its position and decisions the last commission showed a level of consistency and some effort to resolve issues, trying not to escale the problems, the current bunch make idiotic decisions that create brand new issues that never existed before, they have made many situations much worse in their few years of operation.

  • williewombat

    TT

    Not sure what arguement you think you have won or who cares. Of to meet the local Orange Lodge here they haven`t got the local IRAs permission to walk down the road on Thursday bringing Jackie mcDonald and Martin McAleese with me plus an MI5 handler I`m sure theres a way through maybe get a grant for a new GAA pitch to divert the sensitivity of those poor downtrodden nationalists and fund a holiday for Jackie and his mates after this tense time then I`m of to see a family of one of the disappeared who are getting their hopes up again due to those tapes.
    You`l remember the disappeared no not murdered by the Brits, The Orange Order, The Dup , the Brownies, Te BB oh maybe not then

  • son of sam

    Could some of our legal eagles enlighten us as to who pays for these challenges to Parade Commission rulings ?Presumably it is Joe&Josephine Public who foots the bill at the end of the day.

  • Mister_Joe

    What are the legal sanctions available when a Parades Commission ruling is ignored and who is on the line?

  • lamhdearg2

    joe,
    parades com rulings are ignored left right and centre. also
    the police commander on the ground can override pc rulings,on the grounds of public safety that what is likely to happen on thursday.

  • lamhdearg2

    THATS IF THIS GETS KNOCKED BACK
    A loyalist parades group is to mount a legal challenge against a decision by the parades commission about the contentious Twelfth of July march in north Belfast.

    The Orange Order has described a ruling that the parade must clear the Ardoyne shops by 16:00BST as foolish.

    The North and West Belfast Parades Forum says it will mount a legal bid to have the ruling overturned.

    It says the deadline is impossible to meet.

    “The forum is working with others to put together an application before the courts to have a judicial review heard on this outrageous decision,” said Winston Irvine.
    “We’re in the process of hearing the outcome of that and we will continue to vigorously challenge this in whatever way we see fit to do so.
    ‘”I think they’ve set the Orange Order an impossible task and you can’t ask people to (do) the impossible.”

  • lamhdearg2

    Former UDA leader Jackie McDonald said on Monday that Orangemen should consider abandoning the return parade past the Adoyne shops.

    While he clarified his position on Tuesday, saying that they should not walk away this year, the Ulster Political Research Group – which grew out of the UDA – branded the earlier comments as “disgraceful and offensive”.

    rumor repeat RUMOR, a local, to me, claims a well known loyalist has been stood down.

  • Submariner

    I wonder if wee are in for a whiterock mark two

  • dwatch

    The rule to finish the return parade by 4pm has more than hyped up trouble long before the parade begins on the 12th.
    It is a mystery why one of the new parades commission who is a member of the Orange Order did not explain to other commission members that the main parade does not leave the main field in South Belfast until around 4pm so it would be impossible for those three LOL’s who pass Ardoyne shopping center to make it to Ardoyne on time. Unless he did explain, but was knocked back by the other members three of which are women. See here:

    http://www.paradescommission.org/the-parades-commission/commission-members/

  • Mister_Joe

    dwatch,

    Is there any relevance to the fact that 3 members are women? I’m curious as to why you pointed it out.
    And, if you’re married, choose your reply carefully.

  • Comrade Stalin

    ranger1640:

    can you give a link where Dodds said to day there was a threat of Loyalist violence???

    No I can’t. What’s the difference ? Dodds stood beside Winston Irvine and said that the Parades Commission would lead to violence. How can you be so obtuse ?

    Why are you so singularly disinterested in trying to see why this parade is a problem ? What are the stupid word games and evasion in aid of ?

  • lamhdearg2

    cs, maybe like I, others see the protests as the problem.

  • Comrade Stalin

    cs, maybe like I, others see the protests as the problem.

    Would it do you any harm to walk around in someone else’s shoes for a while, to take some time to consider that you can’t have everything exactly as you want it ?

  • lamhdearg2

    “Would it do you any harm to walk around in someone else’s shoes for a while, to take some time to consider that you can’t have everything exactly as you want it ?”
    Right back at you.

    I dont think, considering the many conditions previously placed on the ballysillan parade, “everything exactly as you want it ?”applies,
    the 4pm thing, a step to far?.

  • ranger1640

    CS you are a gas.

    It’s fine for the DUP to go into government with IRA army council godfathers, and others in the shinners whom can’t tell when the kidnapped/abduction, torture, murder and secret burial at a deserted beach of a mother of 10. Who when kidnapped/abducted left her children just before Christmas orphaned. Yet a leading shinner Mitchel McLaughlin claiming that “the killing of Jean McConville was not a criminal act”.

    Yet the DUP in the eyes you CS, they can’t meet with Loyalist community workers???

    The republican triumphalism on here is staggering.

    I to could not find the link where you claimed Dodds said there would be violence? Could it be that he never said it???

    Below is the said interview transcript, from the interview outside police HQ with Winston Irvine as you describe. However the alleged threat of violence is no were to he heard.

    CS, could you have wished you heard it. So subconsciously you and Chris thought you heard it???

    Dodds said “There is deep anger, deep frustration in the community, at what the parades commission have done in putting the Orange order into an impossible position. And I think we have to wait and see what the coming days bring. There has been enormous progress made in relation to some of the discussions and talks have been going on, in the run up to this everybody acknowledged that they were consecutive. All of that has been thrown out the window by the parades commission and it certainly is time for them to go and I hope that the proposals that were previously considered can be considered again in the round along with other proposals to get rid of this commission”.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Pressure-mounts-over-Ardoyne-rulings/f20fe93e-f6ae-4ee4-94e9-15737e7bcfdf

    From the BBC:

    The DUP’s Nigel Dodds, who is the MP for North Belfast, said he had met senior police officers on Monday.

    Speaking afterwards, he said there was a sense of “anger and frustration”.

    “The Parades Commission have undoubtedly made the situation a lot worse,” he said.

    “What they’ve done is entirely counter-productive. They’ve undermined the prospect of getting any permanent solution and greatly increased the prospect of violence on the streets.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18777043

  • Comrade Stalin

    Yet the DUP in the eyes you CS, they can’t meet with Loyalist community workers???

    It’s none of my business who the local community put forward to represent them, although it would be nice if they used the ballot box like everyone else. You know, democracy and all that.

    But having sat through 15 years of continuous lectures about peaceful means, decommissioning, apologies, sackcloth and ashes, disbandment, unequivocal support for the police and courts, I think I am entitled to ask why the people who used all those arguments see it appropriate to appoint a senior UVF-linked figure as their spokesperson when the UVF aren’t even running a recognized ceasefire. Don’t you ?

    The republican triumphalism on here is staggering.

    I am not a republican. Given that the parade in Ardoyne is going ahead, I imagine republicans feel somewhat less than triumphant. The only people who are celebrating here are the dissidents. They want the march to go ahead so that they can have their annual riot.

    I to could not find the link where you claimed Dodds said there would be violence? Could it be that he never said it???

    Bizarrely, you’re saying this and then you go on to quote the threat of violence I was referring to. Here it is again in nice bold type, just in case you’re not wearing your glasses.

    What they’ve done is entirely counter-productive. They’ve undermined the prospect of getting any permanent solution and greatly increased the prospect of violence on the streets.”

    That is a threat. It would equally be a threat if Gerry Adams said it.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’d really like to understand why the Orange Order are content for a UVF-linked figure to do the talking for them rather than appearing in front of the camera themselves.

  • lamhdearg2

    CS, your making the same mistake many here on slugger make, it is not just the O.O., I myself am not a member, its bigger than just the O.O.

  • son of sam

    My earlier query about who pays for challenges to Parade Commission rulings appears to have been answered this morning.I note that application for legal aid is to be made today for the loyalist legal challenge.Whats the betting we don’t hear the usual howls of rage from politicians such as Lord Morrow or Paul Given about waste of public money?

  • dwatch

    Ardoyne Twelfth Orange parade – legal aid refused for judicial review http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18802232

  • son of sam

    Apparently now going to Court of Appeal.More late hours for lawyers!No doubt there will be some interesting submissions!

  • Comrade Stalin

    CS, your making the same mistake many here on slugger make, it is not just the O.O., I myself am not a member, its bigger than just the O.O.

    I commented on the other thread about People’s Front of Judea. To anyone not familiar with the whole culture it’s all just people playing pipes/drums and waving flags.

  • harpo

    “Would it do you any harm to walk around in someone else’s shoes for a while, to take some time to consider that you can’t have everything exactly as you want it ?”

    CS:

    Have Ardoyne nationalists ever considered doing that?

    They may not want to have a bunch of Prods enjoying themselves pass by Ardoyne, but given that said Prods have a right to pass by Ardyone, shouldn’t the likes of GARC consider that they can’t have everything as they want it?

  • DC

    I don’t understand the parades commission’s logic on this one, has anyone there in that commission spoken about the rationale?

    I think orange parades like these shouldn’t take place around Ardoyne, but I also don’t like immigration that much either.

  • Mister_Joe

    ..Prods have a right to pass by Ardyone..

    See Alias’ post on the other thread.

  • dwatch

    Now that Gerry Adams has come out in support of Jackie McDonald I would say any support he has left in loyalist areas will diminish sharply.

    “Former UDA leader defends Twelfth stance”

    “However, Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams has said he agrees with Mr McDonald’s point of view.”

    http://www.u.tv/News/Former-UDA-leader-defends-Twelfth-stance/d8d2cd65-6326-43dc-ba26-ff8dee51e54e

  • DC

    Jackie McDonald talks a lot of sense on the issue of parades.

  • Comrade Stalin

    harpo:

    Have Ardoyne nationalists ever considered doing that?

    I’m not defending the Ardoyne GARC. The solution in my view is for both sides to get around the table and come up with a solution, which requires a two-way compromise. I do not accept the idea that a group of people have the right to create no-go areas for other groups of people. I think that it’s an extremely dangerous idea.

    But what frustrates me is the way unionist commentators, including those speaking here, refuse to accept that Orange parades might be offensive.

    To try to create an example, I’m an atheist. But I don’t stand outside churches on Sunday waving placards declaring that God does not exist. I may have a civil right to do so, but I know that in exercising that right I’d offend people. Friends of mine are religious; I don’t lecture them about why I think they are wrong.

    I could take the equivalent attitude that the paraders are taking and argue that I have the right to express my view (culture, faith, whatever you want) where and whenever I like, and that anyone who is offended should simply put up with it. I could simply refuse to countenance the notion that offence might be taken and wash my hands of the problem if any kind of public disorder breaks out.

    Does that make some sort of sense ?

    They may not want to have a bunch of Prods enjoying themselves pass by Ardoyne, but given that said Prods have a right to pass by Ardyone, shouldn’t the likes of GARC consider that they can’t have everything as they want it?

    They certainly should and there needs to be a compromise.

    Aside from that, Ardoyne is difficult and somewhat unique. There are people there who want to start the war again. As I said before, they don’t want the march to be rerouted. They want it to go ahead so that they can have their riot.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Jackie McDonald is coarse and unpolished and I suspect he was speaking his mind, especially given that the loyalist paramilitaries are apparently expected by everyone to police the crowds over the 12th.

    I agree that Gerry Adams backing him is going to have the effect of killing his credibility. Adams might have thought about that one a bit harder.

  • chewnicked

    I suspect that Gerry thought about it long enough. #damnedwithfaintpraise

  • Reader

    andnowwhat: I think that the wearing of the bowler hat epitomises the out of date conception of Britishness within loyalism and a portion of unionism. At best, it’s a Britishness that is long forgotten, at best, its a Britishness that’s best forgotten.
    That’s a narrow perspective; from Wikipedia: “The bowler hat was popular with the working class during the Victorian era…”
    And for the benefit of those interested in local history, the Bowler hat was also the unofficial badge of office of shipyard foremen. After all, if you spent your working day shouting at riveters up in the scaffolding, you would wear a hard hat too. And the bowler would also be part of their Sunday best. Until it got a few too many dents in it.