The 12th of July Quiz

Thought I would do a quick quiz based round the annual celebrations, its just for fun so any abuse or “in depth” discussions will be deleted but random fact and stories are encouraged!
Hopefully you can avoid google or Wiki for most of them, Fitzjameshorse, give the rest a chance! they will be wee buns for you.

1. What 17c Irish Battle took place on the 12th of July, an easy one to start.

2. Who were the main commanders involved?

3. A few places in Ireland are named after William III but which Capital city is also named in his honour.

4. James II also got a regional capital named in his honour, as well as the region, name them both.

5. What is the connection between Zechariah Tiffen and The Duke of York.

6. Raphael had three but two were lost on the green grassy slopes, name them.

7. Ivan Patterson should be grateful to King William, why and bonus points for how much! (page 263 Blue book)

8. Lets pretend… James won, so who would be the current British Monarch? (I know its impossible but play along)

9. Who was the little fellow in black velvet, Sorrel and their connection with a bowl/glass of water?

10. Why would Grinling Gibbons be not best pleased with Thomas Davis?

11. According to the rules what four dates are Orangemen expected to celebrate each year?

12. Where else in the world is the 12th of July still a civic holiday for Orangemen?

14. Why was the Orange Order disbanded for a period in the 19c?

15. Which famous Orangeman has become a houshold name for his charity work?

16. Why are carrots orange?

  • Drumlins Rock…..you old cheat lol
    is #8 a trick question?
    The ones I definitely dont know are 6,7, 10(Ill kick myself for that one) & 15 (unless its past tense maybe?)

  • USA

    1. Aughrim
    2. Sarsfield and Schomberg
    8. It may have had no effect as I think William was James’ son in law. If James had no male children then his daughter may have been next in line anyway. Therefore the heir would be her kid regardless.
    12. I will guess Toronto, Canada.

    Apart from the above efforts I have absolutely no clue on the other questions. Would be interested on hearing the answer to # 15 though.

  • 15 is past tense… I think it is the founder of an orphan children’s charity if that helps.

    7 was difficult until I realised who Ivan Patterson is then it all fell into place. His title would have made the questions far easier 🙂

    6 has me stumped too and unless 10 has something to do with altars I’m stumped on it as well – but what that has to do with flags is beyond me.

  • Dewi

    9. William died when his horse tripped in a mole hole – the mole toasted by the Jacobites as the fellow in black velvet…..bowl of water though??? and where’s the questions on Wales?

  • Dewi

    And 3 is Nassau – Bahamas, 16 is from Beta – Carotene..

  • Crubeen

    Dewi,

    At the loyal toast the Jacobite would pass his glass over the finger bowl of water on the table to indicate he was toasting the king “over the water” i.e. in France or Rome or wherever the fugitive Stuarts were.

  • Harry Flashman

    At random;

    15. Dr Barnardo

    6. Sons but don’t know their names.

    4. Jamestown?

    14. Was it disbanded or simply proscribed?

    5. Founding and current colonels in chief of the Inniniskillings (the latter in its RIR format).

  • Shibboleth

    7) I don’t know if I’m right. Ivan Patterson is the Presbyterian moderator. A group of Presbyterian ministers met King William. They then received the Regium Donum. This was done away with after the Disestablishment of the Church of Ireland. IIRC a lump sum was paid to end the Regium Donum and this was invested and each year Presbyterian ministers(with the exception of their faculty) get a “bonus” payment based on this investment. I don’t have a current blue book to check as I’m not Presbyterian .

  • Barry the Blender

    Is 4) Fort James on James island (Kunta Kinteh Island)?

  • Re those already answered.
    1 Aughrim (I am there at least once a year)
    2 Schomberg should have stuck to sham fights at Scarva. He was killed at the Boyne. Sarsfield was not the Jacobite commander. He commanded the cavalry on the Right.

    3 Nassau…dammit I thought nobody would get that.
    4 Im thinking of a very isolated place but I might be wrong
    5 Inniskillings and UDR
    6 Could be.I was thinking of something like cannon.
    7 Id need to borrow a blue book from a friend 🙂
    8 “USA” overlooks James III (or should we all?) but if Drumlins Rock is up to his Gregorian type tricks, Id say theres a clue in the wording.
    9 The little gentleman in black velvet waistcoat is the mole who tripped up Williams horse (presumably a sorrel). Jacobites (they havent gone away you know) drink a toast to the little gentleman and when toasting the “king” they discretely move a glass of water under their glass…..thus the toast is to “the king over the watter”. Alas I am persona non grata for (among other things) not so doing (a satanic Republican doesnt drink toasts to kings and queens).
    10 Im trying to think of a Davis song that in some way would displease Gibbons (songs such as Clares Dragoons are bad “history”)
    12 its not Toronto but same general area.
    13 no thirteen in Orange Order??? And they think Catholics are superstitious!.
    14 Unlawful Societies Act 1820-ish
    15 Barnardo
    16 I always assumed it to be an urban myth about the carrots.

    11. Im told I am not even close.

  • Drumlins Rock

    About half way there guys. Shib, will allow you to google that one! a for James towns, thought that was easy.

  • Barry the Blender….
    4. The word “region” throws me a bit. I think its a remote place. But it is a “capital”.

  • Drumlins Rock

    FJH, on no. 4 you couldn’t be more wrong.

  • DR…hey not fair. I didnt google and Im thinking St Helena.

  • Hmmmm…….lets see …..Jamestown on St Helena is definitely named after James II. It was an old East India Company fort.
    Its the capital of an Overseas Territory (St Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Ascension). Did you mean a different “region”?

  • Mike the First

    New York, fjh!

  • Drumlins Rock

    region just means a country or territory or state or province or county or borough, etc.

    And it is not Mr. Davis work but his presence that would cause Mr. Gibbons distress if he were alive.

  • Dewi

    Yeah 4’s driving me a bit mad..Kingston Jamaica? (Should be right for my imaginative thought process…)

  • Well fair enough. I think NY would have been anyones first thought including my own. and I suppose I missed the clue that it was the capital AND the region.
    I should have taken it at face value. But I cant trust an Orangeman 😉

  • Dewi

    Ah wait – it ain’t New York is it? He was Duke of York. Tell me I’m right DR….

  • Dewi

    And I note I was beaten to it….

  • Dewi..it looks like we were looking for a trap where there wasnt one.
    New York City and New York “region”.

  • But er hold on……why was DR allowing the googling of Jamestowns. Was NYC ever a Jamestown?

  • Harry Flashman

    New York was named after the then Duke of York who later became James II, I think they’ve got it.

  • Drumlins Rock

    It is not New York City….
    I said the capital 🙂

  • Mike the First

    Good point, DR – but wait…the capital of New York state…ooh…

    Albany – named for the Duke of Albany, also Duke of York and later James II.

  • Dewi

    Mike the First – too clever by blasted half!!!

  • Mike the First

    Concentrated all my efforts on one question Dewi;-)

  • Dewi

    Right 12 is Newfoundland
    14 Unlawful Oaths Bill.

  • Drumlins Rock

    So far we have
    1. correct,
    2. you needed 1. first
    3. correct
    4. at last
    5. Harry is most accurate,
    6. Is going to be fun!
    7. Shibbo has it perfect, just need the amount.
    8. FJH, just want the leading current pretender
    9. correct
    10. right Tom but bit to go
    11. no-one has took a shot yet I think
    12. its not Toronto and your right and wrong FJH, matter of scale I guess!
    13. um ah oops
    14. this was a voluntarty disbandment by the then Grand Master, why?
    15. Correct
    16. think its half myth half fact,

    getting there guys. No. 6 is going to be the clinker.

  • wee buns

    16. Carrots were originally purple.

  • Nunoftheabove

    5. An abiding passion for Rastafarian poetry.

    6. Comely maidens Elizabeth and Bridget (RIP) didn’t quite make it; I believe that the slightly more street-wise and memorably buxom Harriett may well have lived to sell her story to the Sunday red-tops.

    7. Was Ivan a much-favoured male escort ? (400 guineas ?)

  • gréagóir o frainclín

    Regarding number 15 may I just add that that is Thomas Barnado from Dublin.

  • Dewi

    If Craig Bellamy is transferred to Celtic what are Cardiff going to do with the 20000 shirts they have left?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Dewi

    Judging by today’s other post on the impoverished so-called Big Country, they really ought to be handing them out gratis to the destitute Dais and the dole-ite Dylans.

  • 11 is Newfoundland.same general direction as.. Canada.
    There was a hoax a few years ago about 12th July being celebrated as Independence Day which some Orangemen fell for…..I cant remember where it is and we still cant google it.
    St Ruth and Ginkel were the field commanders at Aughrim. Do I get extra points for drawing up a battle order.?.

    16 Id go with 99% myth 1% fact (like all other Orange things) but its alleged that carrots are orange because they were deliberately cultivated over generations by Dutch to appease the Orange “House” .

    I feel slightly uneasy at knowing this much about the Orange Order (I should probably join it). But there were two seperate occasions.
    1 Unlawful Oaths was the first and compulsory
    2 Unlawful Associations is about five years after that and the Orange Order “voluntarily” liquidated itself for strategic reasons.

  • oh as to the current Jacobite “pretender”……NOBODY.
    The Jacobite version is that he is the legitimate king and therefore not a “pretender”.
    The sane version held is that the harmless old duffer has made absolutely no claim on the “British” throne.
    This is because his serene discretion inhibits loyal followeres from rising in his cause (Jacobite version). Or simply because he thinks they are nutters (sane version).
    Ah yes you may scoff at Jacobites but when the usurping minor dynasty occupying Buckingham Palce is overthrown, when His Majestys errant subjects in Ireland (including the satanic Republicans) and the de facto “USA” see the rror of their ways and rejoin with Canada as the British Dominion of North America….well lets see whos laughing then?
    I have named the “legitimate monarch” in several posts Drumlins Rock.

    But British (sic) King? Well there were two Acts of Union AFTER James was defeated.
    Now theres a lot of Jacobite Studies Trust material on (then) and (current) Jacobite attitude to the first Act of Union.
    To answer the question as it appears requires too much “what iffery”.

  • Drumlins Rock

    FJH, thanks for the commanders, I can remember the Boyne battle order better, (I fought in both and The Diamond too), It is debatable which was the more significant battle.

    Newfoundland is technically in Canada, although it is also technically on earth, having been there I was beginning to question both, it is almost as close to Ireland as it is to Toronto, in many many ways.

    will give you 16, and will let someone else name the current King over the Waters. As for knowing the answers, its a small small world and everything is interconnected, including knowledge, its what makes history fun and not as divisive as people think.

  • Oh REAL History is not divisive at all.
    But Im intrigued now by the notion of Orange Order members engaging in a non alcoholic (hopefully) history pub quiz.
    Those long winter nights in the Clogher Valley must just fly by 😉

  • Released from the burden of NOT googling, I can confirm that 12th July is celebrated as Independence Day in Kiribati…….AND Sao Tome & Principe.
    “Not a lot of people know that”

  • Drumlins Rock

    FJH, have several every year, very competative too! but pleased to say I have been on the winning team more times than not. Will confess the “orange” & history rounds have rather disappointing scores on average.

    With regards history, the worst bits are usually the stupidity of our ancestors rather than glory or evil intent. If you need an orange history expert for a quiz team anytime give me a shout.

    The 12th of July is also St Peter’s day in Eastern Europe, has to be irony in there somewhere. Getting anywhere with Raphael and Gibbons yet?

  • tacapall

    A good question Drumlins Rock for all those young orangemen and loyalists would have been.

    Which side carried the Union Jack at the battle of the Boyne.

  • no…..its hardly the artist Raphael…….so the name sounds vaguely Dutch rather than “Anglo-Irish”. I keep thinking its something like maybe Raphael (as in archangel) might be the name of a big gun and it los two wheels or something like that.
    Or maybe it was the guy who gave William his horse at the Boyne and he lost another one. Its going to be something weird like that.

    Gibbons/Davis….well Im assuming its THE Thomas Davis.
    Which means “the law”, “very inaccaurate history songs” but I cant think that theres anything special in his appearance.
    What I know of Gibbons is basically a designer who was involved at Blenheim Palace and St Pauls. Possibly a Quaker and he was of Dutch heriatge.
    So I presume the Dutch thing and Blenheim is the link to William.
    Davis wrote among other things “The Irish Brigade” and other Wild Geeese things.
    So presumably a connexion there.
    Theres obviously “dots to be joined”.

    Apart from two SDLP fundraisers Im a bit short on quiz practice but the Felons Club used to run a good one. Youve probably not been to one 😉

  • Dewi

    A statue of William by Gibbons was replaced by one of Davis in the College Green of Trinity College Dublin…OK had to google for that one….

  • Drumlins Rock

    Dewi, cheating lol

    I believe setting aside the political aspect the Statue of William was quite a fine work of art, most early orange order representations of William are based on it.

    As for Raphael, it is the artist and probably his most famous work of art, with a big clue to it.

  • Dewi

    Three Graces – 2 blokes called Grace must have ben killed at the Boyne at a wild guess….

  • Coll Ciotach

    I do hope that you are not referring to the rightful King, the Duke of Bavaria

  • Drumlins Rock

    and what sorta blokes are called Grace?

  • Coll Ciotach

    1. What 17c Irish Battle took place on the 12th of July, an easy one to start.
    Aughrim

    2. Who were the main commanders involved?
    St Ruth – Ginkel

    3. A few places in Ireland are named after William III but which Capital city is also named in his honour.
    Would never have got Nassau, but then I have few offshore accounts, if that is correct, I thought that you were referring to New York, briefly called New Orange

    4. James II also got a regional capital named in his honour, as well as the region, name them both.
    Jamestown?

    5. What is the connection between Zechariah Tiffen and The Duke of York.
    No chance unless I cheat and google it.

    6. Raphael had three but two were lost on the green grassy slopes, name them.
    I would go for the virtues. Also painted by Raphael – Faith Hope and Charity – if correct you take your choice

    7. Ivan Patterson should be grateful to King William, why and bonus points for how much! (page 263 Blue book)
    Not a baldy notion

    8. Lets pretend… James won, so who would be the current British Monarch? (I know its impossible but play along)
    Francis II?

    9. Who was the little fellow in black velvet, Sorrel and their connection with a bowl/glass of water?
    As per fitzjames

    10. Why would Grinling Gibbons be not best pleased with Thomas Davis?
    The statue is my guess too

    11. According to the rules what four dates are Orangemen expected to celebrate each year?
    Luther Day the last Sunday of October, The Twelfth, The 12 August, The Firts of July?.

    12. Where else in the world is the 12th of July still a civic holiday for Orangemen?
    Don’t Know

    14. Why was the Orange Order disbanded for a period in the 19c?
    The Unlawful Oaths Act 1823?

    15. Which famous Orangeman has become a houshold name for his charity work?
    Not that famous as I do not know it!

    16. Why are carrots orange?
    Because they are not yellow or black as they used to be, in spite of carotene

  • Seamus

    1: By the Julian Calender it was the Battle of Aughrim.

    2: The Williamite general was Godert de Ginkell, later the 1st Earl of Athlone, while the Jacobites were commanded by Charles Chalmont, the Marquis de St Ruth.

    3: Nassau, in the Bahamas.

    4: New York State, and New York City, as before gaining the throne James was the Duke of York.

    5: Zechariah Tiffin was the first commander of the Inniskilling Regiment, which then became the Royal Regiment of Ireland, which is now known as thh Royal Irish Regiment. The current Royal Irish Regiment is commanded by the Duke of York.

    6: Raphael had three Graces, so I assume you mean two Bishops who died at the Boyne. George Walker was the Bishop designate of Derry when he died at the Boyne, but I don’t know the other one.

    7: Don’t know.

    8: Franz, Duke of Bavaria.

    9: The little gentleman in the black velvet waistcoat is a mole, who’s hole caused Sorrel, William’s horse, to trip, flinging William off his horse, breaking his collarbone. Complications of the broken bone later led to William’s death. As such Jacobites raise a glass to the little gentlemant in the black velvet waistcoat.

    10: A statue of William designed by Gibbons in Dublin was replaced by a statue of Thomas Davis in 1966.

    11: Mini-Twelfth, Twelfth and Reformation Day at the end of October. Don’t know the other one.

    12: Newfoundland and Labrador.

    13:

    14: Largely by accident. Two laws were passed, the Unlawful Oaths Act and then the Unlawful Associations Act, largely targeted at the likes of Daniel O’Connell, banned all oath-bound societies and many public demonstrations. This caused the Orange Order to be disbanded between 1823 and 1845.

    15: Thomas John Barnardo.

    16: Because they have Carotene in them. The idea that they were turned Orange in honour of William of Orange is a myth.

  • Dewi

    “and what sort of blokes are called Grace”
    English twats or Papist Saints. (A wonderful summary of my terrible prejudice in 5 words..)

  • Shibboleth

    7) Bonus = £275

    Bluebook
    “There was a slight majority in favour of taking steps over time to reduce the Bonus to the amount required under the Regium Donum (approximately £275) – 48% to 41%.”

  • Drumlins Rock

    Thanks Shibb, that one more ticked off, just need another fallen Grace, one of the dates Orangemen are supposed to remember, and although the the various act played a part who was the Grand Master and why did he disband the order even before these acts came in, it was more to do with the mainland politics.

  • Dewi, the Grace family of Courtstown Castle in Co Kilkenny were apparently descended from Raymond le Gros or le Gras!!

    Colonel Richard Grace perished in Athlone in 1691; perhaps other family members perished at the Boyne.

  • Drumlins Rock

    too complicated Nevin, we have one Grace (well an almost one) in his Grace Rev.George Walker Bishop Elect of Derry, who died that day, but its not just Bishops who are called His Grace…

  • Seamus

    Should have gotten that one. Frederick Schomberg, the Duke of Schomberg, was the other Grace who died at the Boyne. Grace is also a title given to non royal Dukes.

  • Seamus

    The only thing I can think of is that at the time the Grand Master of the Orange Order was the Duke of Cumberland, the son of George III. Allegedly there was an Orange plot to kill Victoria and replace her with the Duke of Cumberland in the event of the death of the King. So it possibly could be that.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Hey Hey, got them both Seamus, will fill in the answers now, the plot was investigated I believe by the Lords, but no real evidence, Cumberland wasn’t thaking any chance though, so he and the arisocrats disbanded the order, however the grassroots basically ignored this and continued as usual.

  • between the bridges

    DR i will be avoiding your quiz nights! I know 6 answers could prehaps have made a stab at a few more, no idea of the rest including one i definitely, maybe should know!
    You invite 12th stories… there was an orange supplement in a local paper last year and as part of it a priest was ask for his views/memories/stories re the 12th. Basically he told the story of his father milking the cows for a neighbour, on the 12th July and this neighbour milking the cows for his dad on the 15th Aug. On top of this the two neighbours where born on the respective days i.e. 12th and 15th.
    Now it’s a grand wee story, about the ‘good old days’ when we all ‘got on’ but (given that this priest was quite media friendly) the cynic in me thought it’s just ‘too prefect’ a story. A few months later at an OO event I got chatting to a guy and in the course of the conservation this story came up, turns out he was the neighbour’s grandson and it was all true.
    there are many stories of ‘orange’ and ‘green’ bands exchanging players and or instruments for various corresponding events. my favourite is the 12th july my district lodge was lead by a lone AOH piper.

  • Drumlins Rock

    BTB, have wee story about how such cross community neighbourlyness can go wrong, year and years ago on the 12th our band was walking home the last 2 miles from the main road to the hall, and as they passed the only catholic house on the route the owner came out and ask for for a wee go on the big drum, well they didn’t want to refuse a neighbour, but they had second thoughts when he got carried away and bust it. Some said deliberately some said accidentally…. who will ever know now!

  • between the bridges

    DR… ‘orange peggy queen of trasna’ born on the 12th july 1783 buried on 12th august 1891. She lived on the island of transa lough erne and lost her husband and son to boating accident. She would row herself to the nearest point to the 12th and walk the rest. Fermanagh Times ‘on the twelfth of july ‘as yearly it did come’ and until the age of infirmity made it impossible she was a regular attended at orange demonstrations. She appeared wearing an orange shawl over her deceased husbands sash and adored with orange lilies from the abundant supply on transa.’
    Her headstone reads… erected to the memory of Margaret Elliott popularly known as ‘orange peggy queen of trasna’ who died 10th august 1891. Regretted not only by the protestants of fermanagh but by all classes who for generations learned to respect her. Aged 108 years

  • between the bridges

    Lord gorsford of markethill, wrote an account of the first twelfth Tuesday 12th july 1796. ‘One party consisting of 30 lodges with banners and flags after parading through portadown, loughall, and richill came towards this place at about five o’clock in the evening marching in regular files by two by two with orange cockades and by lodges which where distinguished by number on their flags. The party had one drum and each lodge had a fife and two men in front with painted wands in their hands who acted as commanders’’

  • btb, it seems the OO was continuing an earlier parading tradition. The Belfast News Letter for 1789 has a report of a parade of the Banbridge Volunteer Company parade on ‘Sunday being the 12th July’. There were also other marches and reviews by these companies during July and August.

    Also in 1789 in the News Letter there’s the following advert: “The Glorious Memory Orange Lodge, Dungannon No 689, dine at Mr James Tracy’s on 24th June inst. Dinner on the table at 4 o’clock”.

  • between the bridges

    Nev… the first OO warrants were issued in 1795 so presumably ‘689 dinner’ is a for a freemason lodge?

  • btb many of the warrant numbers were carried on from the earlier boyne societies which existed before 1795 so “689” could have been issued by the boyne societies, plus dungannon masonic is number 185 but it may have been different in 1789

  • Drumlins Rock

    LOL 689 is now in Co. Fermanagh I believe.