Hearts and Minds: Can Gerry cut it in the economic cut and thrust?

Nice snippet from last night’s Hearts and Minds (oh, dear, yet more Slugger grist to the Gerrynomics mill)… Sam Smyth Martina Purdy and the urbane David McKittrick… And for context, here’s Smyth’s Financial Dunderhead article from yesterday’s Independent… And a snippet from that embarrassing Newsline interview….

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    (I think Gerry must be regretting not checking the vat rate.)

    The line Gerry takes on the economic incompetence charge (as repeated by David McKittrick) is those trotting it out since his ill fated debate on RTE have not actually revisted the analysis on offer at the time since the arse fell out of the economy.

    Gerry simply needs to repeat the line(which is what he does) that FF or indeed FG are in no posiiton to lecture anyone on economics having missed the enormous white elephant in the living room which had been previously believed to be a tiger.

    SF, as the boy Soros will testify, have got it about right this time and it would seem that a helathy and growing percentage of the Plain People of Ireland agree with that.

    Trying to throw economic muck at Gerry in the circumstances is perhaps not the best idea – though it will obviously give Davey Mac et al something to amuse their declining readership with.

  • Fionn

    Of course the ecomonic brains in FF,FG and Labour are saying vote for us and we will neg the interest rate on the loans down to 2.5% or 3% or 3.5% or whatever figure they need to get to to make their sums work, are they any less ecomically retarded than SF.

    Unlike SF, others believe that default with one group of lenders and noone will lend to you, bollix, lenders exist to make a profit, dump you existing lenders you have a clean sheet, they’ll queue up to lend you money.

  • Greenflag

    While the gist of Smyth’s article is fair enough -there seems little point in berating Adam’s for his lack of economics know how at a time when 2,500 of the world’s greatest economic thinkers and influential policy makers are gathered at Davros and the most they can agree on is that the menu is better than last year.

    Still Adams is not alone – In the Republic there are still elements in the political and economic elite who still want to believe that it was only factors outside Ireland’s economic control that caused the economic mess .

    Poor Gerry is beginning to sound as if he has the same grasp of the economic world that saw De Valera to several electoral victories in the 1930’s /40’s /50’s . But that was then . It won’t cut the political mustard in the Republic of 2011 although the brand will for non economic reasons still bear fruit in NI for decades to come .

    Gerry as De Valera MK II ?

    SF are probably lucky that the ROI economy is in the doldrums right now . That way they can hope too increase their representation . But if they want to go any further they better start beefing up on their economics spokespersons .

  • Sean Og

    So if you walk away from a bank account with a £2000 overdraft you’ll have no problem getting another £2000 overdraft from a different banks?

    I wish I’d known that when I was younger.

  • Greenflag

    IWSMWDI,

    ‘SF, as the boy Soros will testify, have got it about right this time’

    Elastic band there Sammy -I would’nt stretch it too far 😉

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Greenflag,

    re. “Elastic band there Sammy ”

    I’ll have you know my sources are impeccable.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/01/27/george-soros-believes-new-irish-government-will-renege-on-bondholder-guarantee/

  • About SF ministers in NI: “These guys couldn’t run a message never mind a ministry”.

    Why can’t Martina Purdy name her FF sources? 😉

  • Mack

    Sammy can you tell me what Sinn Fein’s plan actually is?

    Caoimhghin O’Caolain made a stab at answering how they’d fund the deficit on last night’s prime time (from the €15.7bn already raised by the NTMA – to which he mistakenly attributed to the Irish Central Bank – and the remainder of the National Pension Reserve fund).

    That could last us maybe two years (taking the figures at face value and assuming the money isn’t need elsewhere / spent already etc) before we have to return the markets. If we remain shut out for longer than that we’re snookered – with little chance of IMF / EU support. So come 2013 we could be borrowing at 9% or higher?

    By the way the debt-to-GNP ratio is around 110% by my calculations today (General Government Debt of €148bn, GNP of around €130bn). We are currently paying an average of 3.5% interest on that debt.

    So, how much money would SF save by ‘burning’ the bank senior bond holders?

    i.e. What deal would they offer? How would they ensure that we didn’t experience a bank run? And that the banks had enough liquidity to continue to trade (i.e the NTMA funds and NPRF would now be needed for the deficit only, borrowing at 9%+ would be prohibitively expensive, and we probably wouldn’t get support from the ECB and there would be 0 chance of the markets lending to the Irish banks at all)?

    Then the calculus is – are these savings greater than negogiating a better deal with the EU/IMF – lower interest rate & access to funding via the ‘bailout’ mechanism, Eurobonds, ECB liquidity support, perhaps negotiated haircuts on banking debt etc?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mack,

    There is an underlying (captialist) principle that should be adhered to and (socialist) SF in this instance at least are in tune with it – failing industries should not be baled out but be allowed to fail.

    SF are in the luxurious position of being able to say what we need to do without having to worry about actually doing it which as you say will be fraught with economic danger but I get the feeling that a growing number of the Plain People of Ireland want the issue sorted out now rather than later and simply pushing it down the line a few years and hoping for the best aint going to work.

    Both Georgie and Gerry and ‘the markets’ know we cant pay what we owe (ie what the banks have borrowed ) back and we need to find an alternative rather than just pretending it will be all right – and SF are simply the only ones at the moment to say just this.

  • sdelaneys

    Fionn “…lenders exist to make a profit, dump you existing lenders you have a clean sheet, they’ll queue up to lend you money.”
    Please post details of your bank so I can give that a try, I ‘d love to have a clean sheet, financially speaking.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Nevin,

    It sounds absolutely ridiculous for FF to suggest that any other party cannot run something – they just open themselves up to the very obvious reply regarding their own atrocious record.

    FF campaign speeches and literature will be an absolute hoot which will now doubt be held up to public literature.

    p.s. Is there a precedent for a political party deciding to give a particular election a miss?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mack,

    where did the boy Alias disappear to, we would normally have had about 20 denunciations of the evil-EU-empire wrapped around some very interesting and illuminating figures by now.

  • Fionn

    Sean Og/sdelaney, suggest you call Agentina, they done it a few years ago. You could try the USA but its a lot longer since they did it.

  • Mack

    @Fionn

    Argentina are still shut out of debt markets.

    @Sammy

    Trueish. The priniciple difference between FG & Lab and SF, is that SF are proposing to scrap the deal with the EU / IMF and do this unilaterally whereas the other two want to renegotiate it.

    The IMF and FF were in favour of bond holder haircuts and the EU weren’t.

    We’d have been in a better shape for the kind of unilateral action SF are urging in 2008.

  • Neil

    Argentina are still shut out of debt markets.

    But can borrow from the IMF. At least though the argument should take place, as I’m sure it will, as opposed to Big Brian signing the Irish people up to a lifetime of misery without a recognisable mandate on his way out the door.

  • Sammy, Martina Purdy comes out of it badly too with her reliance on ‘source’.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mack,

    re.”The IMF and FF were in favour of bond holder haircuts and the EU weren’t.”

    the difference between FF and SF is that the EU know that SF would tell them to feck off (the clue being in the SF name and all that) if they felt the need.

    SFs strength in frightening the EU horses is also a weakness in frightening the financial ones as well to the extent as you say that they might themselves be told to feck off when they came looking for ‘other’ money.

    Probably the best sceanrio for the country would be a Labour SF coalition with the boy Gilmore (as teashop) unleashing SF any time he ran into difficulty with the EU.

    ..priceless to have Gerry as foreign minister (with as Pete B. who oft dscribes him as the International Candidate for West Belfast(sic) no doubt agreeing) clearly ideal for the job – though not a portfolio that would cover Ulster without an adjustment to the title.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Nevin,

    Yes, more like junior schoolyard politics – “lost of people dont like you, so they dont” – than the grown up variety.

  • We all have a degree of certainty with hindsight. It is equally possible to be right for all the wrong reasons. Emotional rhetoric may be good on the hustings, but it won’t run a country.

  • pippakin

    Gerry Adams is not the only economic illiterate the entire government would seem to have been similarly blessed for the last decade. In addition Alan Johnson the UKs shadow chancellor was another ‘learner;.

    The thing is Gerry Adams cannot say his answer is better than what went before if he himself is not better than what went before.

  • Fionn

    “Trueish. The priniciple difference between FG & Lab and SF, is that SF are proposing to scrap the deal with the EU / IMF and do this unilaterally whereas the other two want to renegotiate it.”

    Mack I know FG/Lab are on tour at the mo but hasn’t the ECB said no dice for at least 2 years on a rate cut?

    Prior to the IMF generous rate of 6(ish)% the rate was racing towards 9% for borrowing on the markets, is it far to say that all these high rates are because no-one believes Ireland can actually repay.

    Outside of all this I wonder how the SDLP, DUP and UUP feel about SF mixing it in the South, the UUP promised similair representation by proxy through the Tories,which never happened, I wonder if unionists ever look at SF and wonder what its like to be a player, to have (good or bad) economic policies, a view on the EU, national politics.

  • Fionn

    Sammy, “Ulster” ??? for shame, tis the North or the six counties

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Fionn,

    I’m not only in favour of re-claiming the National territory but also in reclaiming the National nomenclature – which before anyone else says it – is indeed a touch easier.

  • Mack

    @Fionn

    Yes, it’s getting less likely Ireland can repay all of the debt. The whole debate is really around how to best manage this process. The interest rate imposed on Ireland was penal to prevent moral hazard, but at the same time Irish taxpayers are taking on that debt in part to protect Eurosystem banks. How this stops crazy lending by German banks is beyond me. But worse 6% just increases the chances of a sovereign default.

    Another €51bn of state debt issued recently by the Central Bank of Ireland to add to the pile –

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-28/irish-give-51-billion-more-reasons-to-avoid-bonds-euro-credit.html

    Do we need allies and support at each stage? Maybe the Europeans don’t realise the path were on, maybe they will in time.

    If we do go it alone will we have to cope with similar levels of austerity anyway (or worse)? Could we wind up in a death spiral we can’t extract ourselves from? Could we pose a systemic risk to our neighbours economies?

  • Fionn

    Mack, how much damage would a haircut do to european banks? is the threat of a total collapse real?

    Just read that link, scary,

    Any plans to do a blog for slugger on the whole subject?

  • Fionn

    Mack, now that SF and the rest of the left agree on keeping corp tax at 12% could we p*ss the rest of the EU off by claiming we need to lower it to 10% to attract investment to pay our bills.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Some of the benefit of the doubt being extended to Adams here is remarkable. The lesser of two evils approach just won’t wash.

    Being a politician isn’t generally speaking terribly taxing inasmuch as all you really need to be able to persuade people is that you know what you’re talking about and then they can decide whether they agree with you or not. Adams as party president has as much latitude as he needs to determine the message itself as well as the means of delivery. His problem here is not that people don’t agree with him, it’s that he transparently doesn’t know what he’s talking about himself so they can even make that choice.

    Posing as a plausible bullshitter on issues you don’t know too much about (or don’t care about) isn’t too much to ask and he can’t even pull that off.

    Let’s be clear, these aren’t unusually probing questions he’s being submitted to here, these are some of the fundamentals – the basics. He won’t only not win others over if he continues, he’ll be persuading some of his own actual and potential supports that their vote would be wasted on SF at this rate. In most other parties, words would be had, matters put straight – lines would be cleared, assurances given – not this one. He must be dreading the 5 party leader debate if it goes ahead and if he’s not then he’s even more far gone than we thought. The party members left who are still capable of independent thought will be feverishly fingering their rosary beads in prayer that he’s not invited or chooses to not attend, if asked.

  • MichaelMac

    Gerrynomics, oh what a laugh. Must be a bit of a grimace for you Mick as has already been pointed out on another thread you declared Adams the winner in the 2007 debate.

    As for the particpants Mc Kitterick was his usual thoughtful self not prone to the nastiness that afflict so many.

    Purdy it seems doesn’t do irony. Quoting a FF source about SF not running for a message or whatever. The backdrop of course being that the source she relies on belongs to a party that have bankrupted the country for a generation.

    Then finally Sam who relies so much on that 2007 debate. Of course as we know Sam, the ex showband man (economic guru) is a drinking pal of the man he declared the winner, one Micky Mc Dowell. Sure wasn’t it Sam who Michael used when he slipped him confidential Dept of Justice documents on Frank Connolly, while they shared a few pints.
    At that time Connoly was involved with the Centre for Public Inquiry that was investigating shady dealings in the then government, including the exorbitant price paid by Mc Dowell’s department for land to build a new prison.

    Yip, you can rely on Sam.

  • Fionn

    From Prestons blog on the BBC

    “So for example the President of the Bundesbank and member of the board of the European Central Bank, Axel Weber, looked those investors in the eye yesterday – in one of Davos’s more interesting private meetings – and more-or-less dared them to short-sell the euro.

    I am told by one of the investors that it was an impressive display of German confidence.

    “He said that Germany had deployed the equivalent of its entire GDP on making a success of its national reunification” said the investor. “And he said we should assume Germany will do the same to save and strengthen the eurozone”.”

    Gerry might like to point out to bond holders that Irish reunification would increase the taxable area by one third.

    And also to HMG that NI costs them circa 5billion per annum yet Ireland is their 5th largest trading partner at circa 20billion per annum.

    As well as saving HMG cash, increasing the export surplus, it would make Ireland more capable of repaying her bills to RBS and LloydsTSB, lets not forget all those Irish who currently support Labour and the Plastics who would love him but Cameron could become a Saint and Hero in GB, Ireland and Europe.

    The only downside is a % of 1million who would be p*ssed off.

    Small price to pay really, given the additional investment created and hence increase in GB exports.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Michaelmac

    So the issue is now Smyth’s alleged bias rather than the absolutely plain absence of any economic understanding on Adams’s part ? Nice try.

  • MichaelMac

    When the interview that he gives is littered with his own views on the economic crisis and how he doesn’t think SF are serious on the deficit then yes in this case his own bona fides are called into question.
    He is a journalist for INM with no background in economics, why should anyone take him seriously? The fact that he has been personally used as an outlet to do the bidding of government ministers is also relevant.
    There is no way I and others are just going to accept the views of a INM stooge and a FF ‘source’ from Purdy, so a not very good try on your part.
    In recent days SF have scored a number of notable successes on economic matters right across the media. But apparently a tried and tested stunt by the BBC is all the rage.

  • 241934 john brennan

    The rate of VAT? Would that be VAT 69?

    Baron Northstead? For pantomime policics should that not be Baron Hardup

  • Nunoftheabove

    Michaelmac

    Look forward to you quoting chapter and verse from those notable successes on economic matters.

  • “In recent days SF have scored a number of notable successes on economic matters …”

    They have? Can you give some examples from those matters which lie within the remit of our SF ministers?

  • MichaelMac

    Eminent economists such as Max Keiser; Jim Rogers; Peter Schiff; Gerald Celente; David Mc Williams; Max Faber and laterly Daniel Gros of the European Centre for Policy Structures all supporting the SF stance on burning the private bond holders.

    But what does that matter compared to a an ex PD politicians fag and a source for FF. Slugger the cutting edge of the electronic media.

    After the umpteenth thread on SF in the last few days the ‘Cameron is a liar’ thread still hasn’t appeared.

  • MichaelMac

    Also what does George Soros know compared to band hall Sam? Hey the Independent is on message and the hacks have been ordered what to do, therefore Sam is the oracle.

    Plus, a glance at the link from Hearts and Minds would lead you to believe he is half pissed.

  • Mack

    @Michael Mac

    Eminent economists such as Max Keiser; Jim Rogers; Peter Schiff; Gerald Celente; David Mc Williams; Max Faber and laterly Daniel Gros of the European Centre for Policy Structures all supporting the SF stance on burning the private bond holders.

    Did you say this with a straight face?

    It is, of course, the *other* way around…

  • MichaelMac

    “Did you say this with a straight face?

    It is, of course, the *other* way around…”

    If you have evidence to the contrary then publish it. If not then stop publishing dumb comments. Sam Smyth was more than enough.

  • Mack

    @Michael Mac

    Lol, this doesn’t strike you as odd?

    I can guess at how’ve you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve written. Must be a true believer..

    SF are supporting the stance first taken by eminent economists such as the people on your list. With exception of McWilliams who described Doherty as talking sense I doubt any of them have commented on SF. And McWilliam’s was publicly .advocating haircuts on senior banking debt long before it became the SF mantra.. But that seems to have taken over everyone’s minds now..

  • Lionel Hutz

    Does anyone know what the latest opinion polls say? Is there any change for FF following Martin’s selection. What about SF these days?

  • You might like to explain why in Europe there are cuts to spending, in an austerity program to decrease national deficits, and yet in America, the masterplan is to increase the national debt ceiling with more QE. Two completely opposite strategies to the same problem would sort of prove that the problem is a created control measure which is well past its sell by date ….. and a Ponzi scam which feeds on future feeds to keep itself going.

    Gerry’s point is quite simple, and you are all missing its simplicity. Whenever money is so easily invented by central bankers from out of nothing, and then quite purposely and perversely charged as a debt to be repaid by the population of nations, why don’t you just ignore the banksters, and take over their cushy operation, the supply of money from nothing, and remove the creation of national debt scam, which just allows the central bankers at the present, to enslave nations and crash economies. Money whenever you spend it to create industry and economies, because it is used to buy goods and services which would not be there if there was no reason/incentive to create them, such as increased wealth and standing in the community which you can then share, is repaid to the banking sector, so why do they then ask that you repay them again, with extra arbitrary interest added, citing that there is money debt to be repaid whenever it has already been paid into the banking system by the business/person you bought services or goods off. Without your help/purchases, they would not be in business at all, and you are being penalised for creating industry and economies.

    That is the big point that Gerry is making and small minds fixated on just accepting the status quo scam and trying to resolve an unresolvable debt creation condundrum, which you can be sure is well known by central banking to be unresolvable and thus do they imagine their artificial power base is safe, need to see and understand that they are be played for soft fools.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Michaelmac

    So SF have decided to follow the lead of pro-capitalist economists, journalists and entrepreneurs (although in gerry’s case it’s not obvious he understands why he’s choosing to follow this lead) and…that constitutes notable success on economic matters does it ? Imagine that.

    Thanks – I needed a giggle and you’ve delivered; it was obviously the cloest thing you could come to find to what you were looking for on the AP/RN website, much like your basis for complaint about the objectivity of Sam Smyth (SF – home of independent though, huh Michael ?).

    We’re not being nasty here kid, merely trying to help smooth Gerry’s transition from a position of unconscious incompetence in economics into conscious incompetence. Baby steps mate, baby steps….

  • From this morning’s Irish News.

    The Irish News confirms that Mr Adam’s “…title is now the Steward and Bailiff of Northstead and will be until two new MPs are chosen which could take years. ”

    “Stuff and nonsense” says Mr Adams.

    Separately;

    “I am demanding to be part of the television debate” says Mr Adams.
    .
    “I would like to think that my part in the election would help improve the vote” says Mr Adams.

  • vanhelsing

    I was half expecting in the interview to continue,

    ‘Mr Adams do you know what the Oireachtas Éireann is?’

    Lord Ardoyne ‘No I don’t’

    ‘Do you know what the capital of the Republic of Ireland is?’

    Lord Ardoyne ‘I can’t comment on that at present’

    I only hope for the good people of Louth this inbecile doesn’t get elected. Ps does anyone know if the Baron of the Manor of Northstead is a paid role, perhaps he could fall back on that 🙂

  • ItwasSammyMcNally

    vanhelsing,

    lol. but dont tell anyone I was laughing at that.

    Where is the Manor of Northstead does it have any ‘constituents’ do they know Gerry is their main man.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sammy etc:

    Gerry simply needs to repeat the line(which is what he does) that FF or indeed FG are in no posiiton to lecture anyone on economics having missed the enormous white elephant in the living room which had been previously believed to be a tiger.

    Aren’t you concerned that the southern electorate might have slightly higher requirements beyond the simple whataboutery that you’re advocating here ?

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfromMars

    Your reference to different strategies ignores the fact that the problem in Ireland and the problem in the USA are not the same problem.

  • ItwasSammyMcNally

    Comrade Slain,

    I’m afraid you have missed a little detail* regarding this discssuion.

    I am suggesting that if boul Gerry is attacked by people with the most appalling understanding of economics e.g. FF he draw attention to their shortcomings. That does not suggest that in a proper debate he should not spell out clealry, which I’m sure he will, details of SF’s economic policy.

    *I notice you didnt reply to my point on the other thread yet regarding detail – if you insist on indulging in manplaying then best if you can actually back it up.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I am suggesting that if boul Gerry is attacked by people with the most appalling understanding of economics e.g. FF he draw attention to their shortcomings.

    I think the strategy that Gerry deployed when he resigned his seat – allow the attackers to make themselves look silly by not responding (much) – was a better one. But feel free to do the whataboutery thing.

    That does not suggest that in a proper debate he should not spell out clealry, which I’m sure he will, details of SF’s economic policy.

    I hope he’ll get around to that some time before polling day.

  • MonkDeWallyDeHonk

    Comrade Stalin

    I’m no fan of Gerry Adams and his lack of economic understanding is clear. However, he isn’t an idiot.

    Why would he (or anyone else) take any crap from FF who have presided over an economic disaster for the country?

    FF are in absolutely no position to criticise anyone on economic grounds as I’m sure they’ll find out in a few short weeks.

    Do you really expect Adams or anyone else to take s**t from FF about their economic abilities without throwing it right back (ask the EEC or IMF for details of ammunition – there’s plenty)

    As far as FF having the audacity to criticize anyone is
    concerned, the words pot, kettle and black will spring to mind for a very long time

  • Comrade Stalin

    Monk,

    FF have destroyed the country. I’m not apologizing for them. I think most people agree that they are culpable. Their near-wipeout as a political force in the Dail is pretty much a cert, offset by whatever efforts the new leader is able to make (he appears to be making a good start).

    While it is true that people won’t be inclined to pay much attention to FF’s opinions on economics, it’s not true to say that FF anti-SF efforts will be without impact. On the SF side, they have serious issues that they need to deal with. People don’t trust them on the economy any more than they trust FF. SF need to figure out a way of making their economic message – if they have one – more coherent and to focus on the positive. I don’t think they’re able to do this. They are, fundamentally, not an all Ireland party with a broad political policy platform. They are a post-conflict six county party.

  • vanhelsing

    Boys, I understand the arguement that FF calling Gerry an idotic is pot / black / whatever – but the logic doesn’t stand to scrutiny…

    Let’s assume that FF are economic idiots for a moment. They are calling Gerry an economic idiot. That may mean that they are hypocritics but does not disprove their assumption based on the evidence above that he is.

    My contention therefore is that FF may be hypocritics but Gerry is still an idiot 🙂

  • ItwasSammyMcNally

    There is rhetorical convention that those who criticize others should be in a postion to do so on the basis of their knowledge/expertise in the area. It is also quite a common sense convention.

    As an illustration of this, the next time you hear someone saying something really stupid try the old Blackadder routine of sticking a coulpe of pencils up your nose and sticking your underpants on your head (perhaps add a vote FF sticker) and then try convincing your audience of the persons stupidity.

    Of course It doesnt mean they are stupid or otherwise but your contribution is not going to sway anybody.

  • vanhelsing

    Sammy I get that – simply making the point that just because a stupid person [who has indeed been silly] calls another person stupid – because the first person is stupid…doesn’t matter 🙂

  • MichaelMac

    Nunoftheabove,

    my posts are clear enough if you want to put a lying interpretation on them fair enough, but expect to be called out as a liar.

    The main point of course being that O’Reilly journalist Smyth took it upon himself to comment on SF economic policies as not being serious.
    The main plank of those policies in relation to the deficit is the separation of sovereign and private debt. The privateers can sing for their money. That is a position supported by those quoted. They all accept that bondholders should take a hit.

    Now you can be a dumbass and a bit of a schoolyard cat caller, that is self evident. In real life you can comment upon what SF is actually saying or you can repeat what Smyth has said without a critique of what he actually says. You choose simply to repeat what he has said.

    So it gives you a giggle, something like the giggle Dodds and Mc Crea were having when Cameron was lying to them in the commons? In that case people are laughing at you, not with you.

  • Comrade Stalin

    There is rhetorical convention that those who criticize others should be in a postion to do so on the basis of their knowledge/expertise in the area.

    I don’t actually agree with this. But aren’t you hoisting yourself on a petard there ? SF don’t have knowledge or expertise in the area and yet they’re critical.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Michaelmac

    You’ve introduced Smyth to the issue, by way of a very lame distraction from the substance of the issue. I’m simply agreeing with him – an opinion I’d formed before I’d read long his piece and which a great many people hold and which have deepened this week as a consequence of interviews given by Adams – that’s the story here. You do not seem able to accept that Adams is very weak on economic matters under questioning and have produced absolutely no counter-argument to this or compelling evidence that calls this opinion into remote doubt.

    If SF has clear rational proposals in relation to how it would manage, as you put it, the separation of sovereign and private debt, then I don’t believe it’s published them yet but I’m all eyes and ears if you want to quote credible figures from them then I would be genuinely interested in reading them. If not, and you don’t wish – or more likely are not able – to explain them yourself then I’d have to say that that was a TKO for me and , well, end of discussion.

  • “amanfromMars

    Your reference to different strategies ignores the fact that the problem in Ireland and the problem in the USA are not the same problem.” ….. Nunoftheabove 29 January 2011 at 11:50 am

    Oh, are not both problems that they spend money which they don’t earn/have/own?

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfrommars

    No, they aren’t. Is that clear enough ?

  • amanfrommars

    No, they aren’t. Is that clear enough ? … Nunoftheabove 30 January 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Presently then would have to agree to disagree and move on, Nunoftheabove. Perhaps you could advise as to that which proves the circumstances between the causes of Ireland’s woes and Uncle Sam’s national debt* [which is mind bogglingly substantial* and still growing at a crazy rate] are so very different.

    * http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

    Oh, and if you wanna see what real funny honey money looks like, …. a billion here, a trillion there …… follow the links and read the few words here ….. http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/usdebt.html

    And don’t forget to visualise that mountain of neatly palleted $100 bills, 27% bigger, for that is the truer picture today.

    Can you ever imagine it being repaid ……… and who do you imagine it is repaid to?

    Welcome to the Great Game, Nunoftheabove, with its Ponzis and Grand Master Scams in Virtual Realities which Mortals find Difficult to Impossible to Understand/Comprehend/Accept/Believe, and thus are they Easily Enslaved to Server in Ignorance to Arrogance.

    However …… there are New Great Games being Played to Edutain the Masses whilst ReProgramming their Systems of Operation and Control, Remotely from Clouds and CyberSpace …….. for Beta Virtual World Order Systems in Orderly CHAOS …… Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems for NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActive IT and Intellectual Property Energy and NIRobotIQs in Networks InterNetworking JOINT** Applications.

    A little Holywood Loughside number, do you think? Palace Barracks doing a little Spooky Global Tinkering with Command and Control Systems? Nah, of course not, they are nowhere near SMART enough, are they?

    **Joined Intelligence

  • Just testing the site for customising features with this post, Mick, to see how it renders on the page when delivered to the Web.

    Debt Clock

  • Nope, that didn’t work as I had hoped/thought. 🙂 Back to the drawing board.

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfrommars

    The causes are different and the pre-existing circumstances were different – if you don’t understand the difference between a fiscal crisis and a banking crisis then that’s not my problem chuck.

  • amanfrommars

    The causes are different and the pre-existing circumstances were different – if you don’t understand the difference between a fiscal crisis and a banking crisis then that’s not my problem chuck. … Nunoftheabove 31 January 2011 at 6:10 am

    Err, Nunoftheabove,….. does not one always lead inevitably and inexorably to the other, and thus is any difference between fiscal and banking crises, a most pathetic blame game exercise and no more than a rearranging of deckchairs on the Titanic type operation.

    And as nothing has changed in banking, other than now are the banks also petrified into not lending and distributing funds which have been gifted to them for that particular purpose, and western style capitalist economies are collapsing and stagnating almost everywhere, are a discussion of any difference between the two a most unnecessary waste of present time.

  • An erudite explanation of your undoubted present and personal plight, whether you think yourself to be rich or poor, whenever you live in a society which uses printed paper currency and electronic credit transfers to create debt with products and/or intellectual property. …….The impact on the US economy of of J D Rockefeller and his clan and other plutocrats in the 19th and 20th century, also gives the lie to the suggestion that the US was a “free” market then.

    In July 1862, in the middle of the Civil War, the Hazard circular was sent by London banksters to US banksters. It said:

    `Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and chattel slavery destroyed. This I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led by England, is that capital [the bankers] shall control labor by controlling wages. This can be done by controlling the money. The great debt (national) that capitalists will see to it is made out of the war, must be used as a means to control the volume of money. To accomplish this the war bonds must be used as a banking basis. We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury to make this recommendation to Congress.’

    The US Congress passed the National Bank Act of 1863 giving the banksters power to create money as debt, but not exclusively. In 1872 Horace Greeley said of the Act:

    `We have stricken the shackles from four million beings and brought all laborers to a common level, not so much by the elevation of the former slaves as by practically reducing the whole working population, white and black, to a condition of serfdom. While boasting of our noble deeds we are careful to conceal the ugly fact that by our iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.’

    Comment: That doesn’t sound like a ‘free-market’ or free ‘human action.’ To me.

    In 1920 Colonel Edward Mandell House is said to have given a very detailed outline of the plans to be implemented to complete the enslavement of the American people. He stated, in a private meeting with Woodrow Wilson (President 1913 ‘ January 1921):

    ‘Very soon, every American will be required to register their biological property (that’s you and your children) in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will affect our security as a charge back for our fiat paper currency.

    ‘Every American will be forced to register or suffer being able to work and earn a living. They will be our chattels (property) and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading (Birth Certificate) to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, secured by their pledges.

    ‘They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debts to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud, which we will call “Social Insurance.” Without realizing it, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and we will employ the high office (presidency) of our dummy corporation (USA) to foment this plot against America.’

    The Great Depression created by the Fed’s monetary policy was the proximate cause of the bankruptcy of the US and virtually all other nations around the world in the 1930s. To be “free” a “market” AND human agents, must not be manipulated and controlled. The US has never been a free market nor have its people ever been free ” they have been manipulated and deluded since a bunch of elitists formulated the constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. …. Posted by Ron Chapman on 1/30/2011 11:56:19 PM ….. http://thedailybell.com/1719/Anthony-Wile-Elite-Desperation-Over-Failing-Middle-East-Psyops.html

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfrommars

    So your contention is that in either or both economies there wasn’t any meaninful national debt before the recent crises started, are you ?

    Examine the extent of the claw-back of the bank bail-out in the US and then do likewise Ireland (clue:the latter won’t take long) and consider why that might be and I think you’ll agree that the two are dissimilarly proportioned and entirely distinctly positioned as economies currently (clue – why might the markets consider the desirability of investing in one as a materially different proposition in the other right now ?). Likewise the reactions to them and the extent of each’s respective ability to do so in terms of actual or potential mechanisms at their disposal for addressing the problems they had/have.

  • So your contention is that in either or both economies there wasn’t any meaninful national debt before the recent crises started, are you ? …. Nunoftheabove 31 January 2011 at 11:11 am

    No, that is not my contention. And how did you come to imagine that it was? Can you point out that which was said that caused you think such a thing. Thanks.

    And as for why might the markets consider the desirability of investing in one as a materially different proposition in the other right now ? I would imagine that no one feels comfortable any more in supporting and investing in a failing terrorist and police state in ethical decline and thinking that military action is its saviour. That is the road to ruin and a certifiable madness, surely? What think you?

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfromMars

    If you didn’t imply or think that there was no such thing as substantial pre-crisis national debt in each state then I apologize.

    I was thinking more about the measure of market confidence in each (as the nature and extent of the problem in each is different, as you continue to refuse to accept or to understand) and the relative pricing of risk as a matter of fact but if you want to blether Michael Mooreishly about police states and the rest of it then that’s just the sort of tedious, conspiratorial claptrap I’m afraid which would place you on intellectual parity with, say Eirigi – and if you’re offended by that then perhaps you’re right ought to be. It has literally no contribution to make to a real understanding of the current problems, be they in the USA or in Ireland or to any adult consideration of real-life options for moving us into a post-crisis situation.

    If you genuinely believe that a discussion of any difference between the two [is] a most unnecessary waste of present time then I don’t feel there’s any point in engaging with you any further as your argument in other words is plainly not economic at all. To say that both can be argued to result from capitalist excesses which went uncontrolled, ungoverned and to a large degree unregulated, is true. That doesn’t make them the same problem or with leave us with any feasibility of the same solution in the USA and in Ireland. Their scope and scale is different and the range of possible solutions to each is – as they’re different problems, as I keep saying –also distinct.

  • I have little to no interest in discussing the past, Nunoftheabove, it is gone and has left its mark but really only as a bitter sweet memory to be either cherished or forgotten. The wise soul will have learned a lot and how to learn and move on to greater things led by a vivid imagination able to be shared to create a better Beta Future.

    And although they may presently appear to be few, such wise souls are more powerful than many will ever be able to imagine and are growing in number … and communicating with each other.

    This is a sobering read, uncovering as it does a global scam and a house of cards built on shifting sands …… http://thedailybell.com/1722/Buy-the-Dow-While-the-US-Wilts.html

    PS….. whenever I continue to refuse to accept and understand, do we agree to disagree and move on to something much more agreeable. To fail to do so leaves one stuck in a rut in the past and that is a waste of time, although as far as I am concerned, there is an infinite supply of that commodity delivered from Space for whoever to create whatever they imagine is possible, and that will depend upon what they would know and have learned about the Art of Learning and Beings.

  • Nunoftheabove

    amanfromMars

    Shazbot, Na-Nu Na-Nu, man – thon space dust’s fierce gear altogether ye head ye.

  • amanfromMars

    Shazbot, Na-Nu Na-Nu, man – thon space dust’s fierce gear altogether ye head ye. … Nunoftheabove 31 January 2011 at 8:45 pm

    🙂 Quite so, I’m sure, Nunoftheabove, although the secret of life is to be able to fly high unaided and unhindered by artificial means.

  • EdgarDavids

    They (SF) are a post-conflict six county party.
    —————————————————————————
    The frequent boast about their All-Ireland credentials does seem strange when we take into account that FF have recruited in the north, the Greens run for elections across Ireland, the SDLP have ties to Irish Labour historically and that therefore pretty much all Irish nationally minded parties (with the possible exception of the somewhat partitionist FG?) have an All-Ireland kick about them these days!