IRA’s holdings built up and ruined by Celtic Tiger?

One of the Ireland related Wikileaks revelations reveal a briefing from a Garda source to the effect that:

While the IRA had been proficient in smuggling, robbery, and racketeering since the 1970s, the Celtic Tiger economic boom of the 1990s had prompted the IRA to diversify into more sophisticated business enterprises.

Perhaps Lord Blackheath knows something about this? Interestingly he recently claimed in the Lords that:

The IRA had five companies completely ruined. They had built the companies up as pensions funds.

Curious…

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  • pippakin

    This looks like the speech everyone including me dismissed. I think I may owe him an apology.

    I suppose it would be far fetched to wonder if there could possibly be a link between huge losses and a huge bank robbery.

  • Mick Fealty

    Me too. I thought he was raving at the time. But in the context of that briefing it certainly bears further investigation.

    One for The Detail perhaps ( http://url.ie/8gwg )?

  • Alias

    The claim is consistently made whenever reference is made to Shinner funds that these funds are pensions for the members so as to divert the focus from organised crime and to put it onto a peace processing focus of the ‘retirement’ of said members. But none of the members have received any of these Shinner funds with Hughes, for example, dying in penury. These funds are for the godfathers benefit alone.

  • Mark

    That sounds remarkably like a wikileak Alias.

  • pippakin

    Interesting site. I hope they take the case.

  • Alias

    You can prove my statement to be in error by showing that PIRA’s ordinary members are in receipt of these so-called ‘pensions.’ Hughes didn’t receive any pension or even help for his medical treatment whereas Keenan had a mysterious benefactor who made the private medical expenses for his cancer care.

  • Alias

    Typo: “…who paid the private medical expenses for his cancer care.”

  • tacapall

    Wikileaks a gospel according to america, such fools we are to believe controlled information camouflaged as truth, are we to assume every word from wikileaks is true…. dks.

  • DC

    What I’ve to come to learn about NI politics and its shadow life is never say never ’cause ya never know!

  • Mark

    I presume that was directed at me . Who know’s Alias , maybe a few people chipped in . Wouldn’t you help a dying friend ? And how could i show you the financial deatils of past and current members of PIRA ? You are talking about two people in an organisation of well you tell me . how many ? and again your distain is overclouding your usually informed view .

  • redhugh78

    Any evidence to substantiate any of this apart from ‘ a garda source’?

    seriously, clutching at straws as usual.

  • Mick Fealty

    @redhugh:

    Well, only that State seems to have taken it seriously and Blackheath appears to be unconnected with that source.

  • tacapall

    Mark, Alias is right, there is no pensions or financial help in any way for forgotten volunteers who’s lives have or had taken a turn for the worst. You only need to look around west belfast go around the building sites that were lauded by Sinn Fein and the SDLP as bringing jobs and investment to West Belfast but you wont see too many West Belfast men working in those building sites.

  • percy

    I got to the bit about foundation X wanting to bankroll the country, and i immediately thought of the huffington post.

    This stuff works better in the USA and spoof sites like “the onion”

  • Mark

    It’s funny that when money worries are the number one concern of people , The question of where the PIRA got theirs is back in the news . Never has an organisation been disected the way PIRA has . They have gone on record stating their war is over and have made efforts to prove this and yet … Of course their critics will insist that they have to be stipped down and laid bare but to some people they will remain an honourable and just army and that’s the way history will remember them .

  • joeCanuck

    That’s not at all what history will remember them for. You’re deluding yourself.

  • Mark

    Tacapall ,

    Re your post 12.18 , that’s sad and unfortunately that’s life and to be honest Tacapall while I been up north many times , I don’t have local knowledge the way you have . I do have knowledge about an industry in Dublin where i run a small business and republicans that i have known and employed down the years have tried to help eachother whenever they can . Charities do take time to set up but your right , alot of guys from both sides live on the bread line. Its a terrible legacy .

  • Mark

    No Joe I’m not , That’s how I feel and with all due respect , i am well educated , well informed and listen to my many friends and large extended family who feel the same way . How is life in canada by the way ?

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    ‘to some people they will remain an honourable and just army and that’s the way history will remember them.’

    Joe’s right Mark you’re deluding yourself.

    You’re talking here about an organisation who murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and made ‘legitimate targets’ of businessmen, border farmers and cleaners.

    A group who extorted, robbed, mutilated and intimidated.

    A bunch of crazies who blew up shoppers, children, workmen and people at a cenotaph.

    An ‘army’ who killed almost 400 members of it’s own community.

    A leadership who allowed four hunger strikers to die for their electoral mandate.

    An organisation who unlilaterally decommissioned, signed up to long-term partition, endorsed the police service of Northern Ireland and moved into Stormont to help administer British rule.

    Many words could be used to describe the IRA’s squalid, sadistic and entirely pointless campaign — honourable and just are not among them.

  • He noted that it is difficult for the two prime ministers to say “no” when Gerry Adams asks for a meeting. He said Sinn Fein is insisting on working out details at the top level of government …. http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/13/wikileaks-what-sinn-fein-cannot-stand-he-said-is-skepticism/

    “They expect to be contacted only by someone equal to head of state status or someone with an international security rating equal to the top six people in the world. This is a strange situation.” … http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/tory-peer-lord-james-i-helped-launder-over-1bn-for-the-ira-14995248.html

    Hmmm? Gerry and Martin’s masters, foundation X?

  • slappymcgroundout

    “A leadership who allowed four hunger strikers to die for their electoral mandate.”

    Right. And the moon is made of green cheese. One of these days, some will figure out the dynamic of the hunger strike. You can start by asking yourself why the late Bobby Sands insisted that the strike be staggered, with others joining him at certain intervals along the way. Here, I’ll save you some time. Once he dies, the moral pressure on the others who have joined the strike to keep on with the strike will then be overwhelming. And that’s how you keep the strike from collapsing.

    The tradition otherwise is that the hunger strike is controlled within the prison. Explains why the hunger strike began over the objection of those outside. See the the third letter here, by our man in County Antrim, and note the first letter as well:

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/8812

    Note the words about the late Bobby Sands, the architect of the hunger strike, in the third letter. Was his strike, started in the prison and control was always in the prison, and not outside. Note again the part of the command order re only the strikers themselves being allowed to take themselves off the strike. When you consider again the purpose of the staggered nature of the thing, you’ll understand why the late Bobby Sands ordered that only the strikers could remove themselves from the strike (recall that overwhelming pressure to stay on once he dies). And that was how Bobby intended to avoid the disaster that was the first aborted hunger strike.

    Next, the absurdity of O’Rawe’s claim is made plain by one of his supporters (from the Planet of the IRSPs):

    “A further message was approved by Thatcher on the evening of July 7th and communicated to the IRA on the afternoon of 8th July. The documents further suggest that the IRA was cool at first but later in the day said that only the tone, and not the content, of the offer was unacceptable. As a result, a further draft statement, enlarging upon the previous British statement, was communicated to the IRA for their consideration. The documents say the IRA was advised that if they accepted this statement and “ordered the hunger strikers to end their protest” then the statement would be issued immediately. Otherwise a statement would be issued re-iterating the British government position of June 30th.”

    Query, some were protesting in favor of their five demands. Surely, a statement conceding the five demands would result in some ending their strike. Why would you need them to end their strike before you made your statement public? You afraid that the hunger strikers will make sport of you by not accepting your concession to their five demands and instead dying just to spite you?

    Now, if the strike ends first, then there’s room to not make a statement for public consumption. Or to do some other things, like make a statement not quite agreeing with what those who ended their hunger strike believe you had agreed to. Recall, as I mentioned above, the end of the first hunger strike.

    From a piece in the Washington Post, 8 July 1981:

    “British officials have contended that the prisoners could trust the government to make the discussed changes because it has carried out numerous other steps to liberalize the prison regime in Northern Ireland during the last two years. Only continuation of the hunger strike, British sources said, was stopping the government from beginning immediately to make more improvements.”

    Yes, we can’t let the prisoners’ families bring in some of their own clothes, ’cause you know that hunger striking works a magic death grip on the gates to the prison. I mention clothes because the same Wash Post piece goes on to provide:

    Sources said the proposed changes include allowing prisoners to wear their own clothes at all times…

    As the one hunger striker quoted above in the An Phoblacht piece wrote elsewhere (in the Irish News):

    “So, this Tory cabinet of Maggie Thatcher, having decided that it was in Britain’s best interest to act to break the Hunger Strike, comes up with a list of concessions they are prepared to make, presents this to the leadership of the Republican Movement, who supposedly reject them and what do the Brits do? They walk away with their tails between their legs.

    If the British had thought it was in their interest to end the Hunger Strike then they would have done so regardless of what the Republican Movement did or did not do. They would simply have gone to the media – having first confided with and secured the support of the SDLP, the Catholic hierarchy and the Dublin government – and announced concessions they were prepared to make. We on hunger strike would then have been faced with either calling it off or trying to continue with a now deeply divided support base, not to mention internal and family divisions. It’s not rocket science.”

    Indeed, it isn’t rocket science, and there’s your answer. It doesn’t matter what the likes of O’Rawe claim some to have wanted. All the British govt needed to do was to go public with its concessions, which is a course of action that more than a few have taken down through our recorded human history.

    For yet one more, the journalistic integrity of this site leaves much to be desired. Consider first the point made immediately above, and then to take but the one example, back on 28 September 2009, Slugger published a piece by a Rusty Nail that provided, in pertinent part:

    “…the British were under enormous pressure; archive material makes clear that Thatcher wanted above all else an end to the hunger strike.”

    Yes, and that’s why she didn’t go on the TV and concede all five demands, because she so much wanted above all else to end the hunger strike. You might as well believe that the moon is made of green cheese. By the way, ever hear of the phrase, just war? Can’t be if the act is crime, is crime, is crime. And that was the point of Maggie’s attempt to criminalize the movement. Oh, and Rusty Nail, if you’re reading this, it was at that point that you lost the argument, since no one in their right mind could possibly believe that a govt intent on having its way wouldn’t have went on the tv, stated its concessions, and then asked the world, just who is being reasonable here?

    Next:

    “Many words could be used to describe the IRA’s squalid, sadistic and entirely pointless campaign…”

    You really should read more. One of the seminal moments for the movement was when some contemplated the reality that the old crew sat in republican bars drinking themselves into a stupor with absolutely nothing to show for their effort. Some vowed that such wouldn’t be them. One of the some is the head of a rather large political party while another is the Deputy First Minister. As the largest party for the one grouping, they otherwise exercise a veto power on behalf of their group. And so they won’t be found in a republican bar drinking themselves into a stupor with absolutely nothing to show for their effort.

    Next, since you spoke of pointless campaign, how goes that campaign to crush Sinn Fein? But if you wish to well and truly apportion blame, try Andy Tyrie here speaking to no civil rights for some and such giving rise to the PIRA [starting at 2:32, and then again at 3:20]:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0vwt_Itlg0

    If Andy is still with us, you can ask him how well the campaign to wipe them off the face of the earth worked out. And perhaps the no terrorists in govt isn’t the meme, but instead the meme is regret that centuries of attempted genocide has singularly failed to works its magic of wiping them off the face of the earth.

  • Cynic2

    ” an honourable and just army”

    I am more nostalgic than you. I prefer to remember PIRA murdering children, blowing up dog fanciers at a dinner dance, blowing up people attending a remembrance day service and shooting them at a country gospel hall, kidnapping, murdering and burying for 30 years a mother of 10 children, shooting a man and leaving him to bleed to death in a lift because he wouldn’t obey a local IRA commander and slitting the throat of a man in a pub in fight.

    Yes an honourable and just army.

  • Cynic2

    Dear Slappy

    Keep trying.

  • Cynic2

    “how goes that campaign to crush Sinn Fein? ”

    What campaign to crush SF? From a British and Unionist standpoint they are a critical part of the tool kit in preserving the status duo and cementing the union

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Interesting stuff Slappy — of the seven points made in my previous post, you chose to drone on for hours about the hunger strikes. I’d have loved to read it but quite frankly I couldn’t care less.

    The rest of your post appears to suggest that murdering nearly 2000 people was somehow preferable to ‘sitting in republican bars in a drunken stupor’, and that the crowning glory of this pile of dead bodies is having a SF DFM in a devolved assembly and el beardo presiding over a party who managed a serious political mandate AFTER their military wing stopped killing people.

    The RM needs to take the blinkers off and stop trying to pretend that their campaign was anything more than a long, depressing list of unjustifiable murders, acheiving F all squared.

  • pippakin

    Is the “you must be logged in to leave a comment” new? Is it not a bit discouraging?

    The thing is the IRA were, some say, quite a big business. If they were the electorate (me) might want to know if they were they successful businessmen or not.

    I would very much like to see the Report and Accounts for the last several years. In the absence of such a document and with all the rumours of losses on the property market, some may decide that they would rather vote for a party or someone with a better or at least provable financial track record.

  • pippakin, you would probably find developers, lawyers, bankers, accountants et al in league with Loyalist and Republican godfathers, either willingly or unwillingly. It was a ‘dirty economic war’ too. You’d probably also find Lottery, IFI and other forms of community funding siphoned off into godfather pockets if a ‘deep dive’ audit were carried out – but who’s going to go there?

  • Fionn

    off course if you’re laundering dirty money you do it through the stock exchanges, but Blackheath and the Guards know better than to highlight that uncomfortable truth.

    They are left with 2 pretty unlikely stories constructed to incriminate no-one but the IRA

    Q for the Guards, why would the IRA invest in properties in Spain, Spain is the most IRA-unfriendly European country due to republican support for ETA, hence Spain would gladly nail them.

    Q for Blackheath, 1,000,000,000 quid where did it go? you don’t mess with money, you need to account for it or the banks get annoyed.

    Can’t believe I’m bothering to respond to such a mickey mouse theory.

    Any IRA money was/is laundered through stocks and shares, only an idiot would have it in physical or economic silo’s

    Incidently, note to Guarda source, property has not disappeared, its just less valuable today, suggest you seize the relevant properties to-day

  • Mark

    Gerry Lvs castro ,

    Re your post last night listing the reasons why I am deluded and why the IRA / PIRA are not honourable and their war was unjust .

    You’re either going to die or end up in prison for a very long time ! According to informed sources , that’s what any man / woman is told when enquiring about membership . In my opinion , to brush that advice aside and sign up anyway because of your belief’s is honourable . To know the chances of you dying or being shot or going to jail and still want to join because you believe in a cause is honourable . To endure going on the blankets and all that entails because you refused to change your principles is honourable ( you see where i’m going here GLC ). To sacrafice family life because of what you believe in is honourable.

    It’s funny / ironic when details emerge ( wikileaks ) about the war on terror , people are more interested in the little tit bits and gossip than they are about actual events . That’s beause people realise war is war and terrible things happen in a war . So really GLC your list of atrocities could apply to any war situation any where in the world at any time. The IRA / PIRA war was a just war . British Soldiers ( they’re the ones who are not promised death or a jail term rather a chance to see the world and forge a career , oh and they get paid ) fought IRA soldiers in a war that produced all the things any war normally does . The expressions emeny combatant , colat damage etc are horrible to hear but in order to call a spade a spade …….

    In keeeping with the recent trend of divulging personal information about one’s self on slugger , you are probably aware that i am a middle aged , middle classed , self employed Dublin based family man republican . There in lies the root are your problem . Your post reeks of frustration at my views and the realisation that republicans come from all walks of life is something that has only just dawned on alot of unionists . You have been deluding you self for years.

  • pippakin

    Nevin

    Yep, but as far as I know none of them are, or will be standing for election here in the south.

    It would be a bit disappointing to find the ‘economic saviour’ you voted for had lost his shirt in the recession.

    I

  • Tomas Gorman

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/editorial/role-of-journalism–opinion-not-always-fact-139323.html

    An interesting angle on the wikileaks story. If I had to describe Julian Assange and the importance of the leaks in one word, I’d say turgid.

  • Alias

    Gerry Lvs castro, your post @1:17am is spot-on.

  • “Whatever the veracity of such allegations, Wikileaks is no substitute for good journalism based on sound research and accurate reporting. Just because something is wikileaked does not mean it is fact.

    The fundamental role of journalism is to inform the public. However, the role places heavy responsibility on the media to report the news accurately, fairly, and with integrity — ever mindful of the difference between fact and opinion. Irish Examiner

    Good journalism should also dig a bit deeper than at present; press releases should be clearly identified as such.

  • Tomas Gorman

    Agreed Nevin.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Mark

    A few quick points.

    Firstly, as you’re classing joining the IRA as honourable, I’d assume you would apply the same logic to the UDA, UVF etc, many of whom also ended up ‘dead or in prison’ for equally pointless and stomach-turning violence.

    I also note that you’re deluding yourself that the PIRA fought a war. Presumably one where it’s fine to shoot or blow up people from a distance but scream like a bunch of pussies and run to every court on the globe if you actually take any casulaties yourself.

    What the provos pursued was a particularly cowardly guerilla campaign, accompanied by such highlights as shooting farmers, businessmen and cleaners and blowing up children, shoppers and pensioners. That’s before we get to the disappeared, the brutality meted out to their own communities, the extortion, robberies and mafia style treatment of anyone pissing off the leadership.

    ‘Your post reeks of frustration’ No it reeks of disgust for the notion that the IRA were anything more than a bunch of deluded sheep led by a cynical, hate-filled army council.
    I lived through ‘the troubles’ — on a daily basis there was another needless trickle of Irish blood on both sides — the fact that not one single death achieved anything is the most damning verdict on the RM’s hopelessly failed strategy.

    The one thing I do admire the RM for is it’s limitless capacity for spin and self-delusion.

  • Munsterview

    Gerry Lvs : “….The RM needs to take the blinkers off and stop trying to pretend that their campaign was anything more than a long, depressing list of unjustifiable murders, achieving F all squared………”

    It is you and people like you need to take the blinkers off!

    From the early seventies a Low Intensity War was fought in the British Occupied Six Counties in the course of which State forces constantly used what they termed ‘Counter Terrorist Operations where the rules did not apply. Recently on another thread I provided details of how General Frank Kietson viewed the Derry Massacre.

    We had to wait almost forty years before a British Prime Minister stood up and admitted before the world that it was State Murder. Dozens of other serious events such as The Ballymurphy killings and the assassination of Pat Finnicuane and hundreds of other serious events and thousands less serious are still awaiting full disclosure.

    The Brits have the information : the files remain closed as they are for every other such event in the Irish War of Independence such as the Finnucane type State assassination of Thomas McCurtin, Lord Mayor of Cork and the deliberate burning of Cork City in an exercise of Unionist spleen by Montgomery who is remembered down there with about as much fond recall as the East Enders have for Hitler !

    As I have continually pointed out here like events to the North took place in every one of the dozens of Ex-Colonial country the British were kicked out of, in the years of conflict and upheaval before their disgraced exits. Every one of these countries also has its Gerry Kellys and Martin McGuniess with a military past because British policy in these Colonies left no other route to power and freedom save that blasted out with bomb and bullet.

    It should also be borne in mind that there are still Turgon types in ‘Rhodesia’, Kenya, Uganda etc who regret the passing of the old order and will not adjust to the new reality. In fact it may be that Turgon types having witnessed the dozens of such betrayals of their loyalist contemporaries in these countries, are now determined that the same thing will not happen to them in The Six Counties.

    It will !

    The majority ethos on this Island will prevail as it should have following the democratic decision of 86% of the People on this Island to opt for a Republic in 1918 ! They can now but delay the process not prevent it. The only question such people need to answer and indeed the general public also : just how much damage are they prepared to inflict on retarding civic society while pursuing their ’scorched earth’ politics.

  • Mark

    GLC ,

    Get off your soap box for starters . And yes I would have respect for loyalists and think in most cases that their decision’s to join up took balls and were honourable. However as has been pointed out by my esteemed colleague Munsterview , they hardly set the place alight when they got there as opposed to republicans who burnt the place down ( if you’ll pardon …… ) As I recall it was porn and tattoos vs degrees and book deals . As it turned out , loyalists didn’t really have the stomach for hungerstrikes ( again if you’ll …….. )

    You call a guerilla war a coward’s war when in fact various ex army experts would totally disagree with you . Were the South Armagh Sniper Teams cowards ? not according to the british army who fought and feared them .
    You have a strange perception of what exactly a war is . Soldiers shoot eachother in a war and in the war up north ( where you live on a daily basis like everyone else ) there had to be a guerilla war ( do you even know what that means ? ) because of the odds , the role of RUC / UDR , the political situation . Were there not part time soldier’s ( UDR ) who one might say were never off duty .

    With regards to your opinion that the RM’s strategy has hopelessly failed , I disagree with you , Sinn fein could buy and sell any party in the north and because the way the Republican Movement is viewed throughout the world ( held in affection ) unionists are shitting themselves . People get irish republicans . They understand and can empathise with our way of thinking , Can unionists say the same thing , Can they fuc!.

    PS – Alias , It’s good to see you posting by proxy now .

  • Niccolo

    Mark: “British Soldiers….fought IRA soldiers in a war that produced all the things any war normally does”?

    Am not sure quite where to start in response to a comment like that but let’s keep it simple shall we….

    If it was war and there were soldiers on both sides then tell me, how many prisoners did the IRA take?

    How many prisons did they run for captured British soldiers?

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    Re your above pedantic petty post , Grow up man , Is that simple enough for you ?

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    ‘they hardly set the place alight when they got there as opposed to republicans who burnt the place down ( if you’ll pardon …… )’

    Disgusting comment Mark. I had a good friend incinerated in La Mon for no other reason than being a member of the collie club. Perhaps you can begin to understand why the people (and one in particular) behind this outstandingly sick and deliberate act can never be regarded as ‘honourable or just.’ Ditto Bloody Friday. Ditto Darkley. Ditto Warrington, Teebane, Enniskillen…

    ‘As it turned out , loyalists didn’t really have the stomach for hungerstrikes..’

    As it turned out, they (surprisingly) had more wit.

    ‘Were the South Armagh Sniper Teams cowards ?’

    You tell me Mark. How much bottle does it take to shoot someone in the back from a long distance?

    ‘You have a strange perception of what exactly a war is’

    Something I presumably have in common with the RM, who felt unable to take casualties unless they were self-inflicted. Witness the gurning after Loughgall, where a provo team were wiped out in the act of attempted mass murder.
    If you’re going to declare war, at least have the balls to grow up when you take a few hits.

    ‘Sinn fein could buy and sell any party in the north’

    Even assuming this to be true, you’re most certainly damning with faint praise on this one.

    ‘the Republican Movement is viewed throughout the world ( held in affection )’

    Violent Irish Republicans have in certain places been misguidedly regarded with affection (considerably diminished following 9/11 when Americans suddenly realised that terrorism wasn’t all about shaking the barley after all). What they gained from all that goodwill was more partition and a very special place in a UK devolved assembly. I’ll settle for ongoing UK citizenship rather than a wee bit of global sympathy but thanks anyway.

  • Munsterview

    Mark : “……..In keeeping with the recent trend of divulging personal information about one’s self on slugger , you are probably aware that i am a middle aged , middle classed , self employed Dublin based family man republican . There in lies the root are your problem . Your post reeks of frustration at my views and the realisation that republicans come from all walks of life is something that has only just dawned on alot of unionists . You have been deluding you self for years……. ”

    No good Mark, you need to get a small yacht if you really want to bug the Bejazus out of them !

  • pippakin

    Mark and MV

    Will you two stop bragging and let me know where to send the begging letter.

  • Reader

    Mark: With regards to your opinion that the RM’s strategy has hopelessly failed , I disagree with you…
    When, and how, are you getting your United Ireland?

  • Mark

    Munsterview ,

    Test post

  • Mark

    MunsterView ,

    Yes my man , it’s on the list . Sailed abit in my youth . My old man had a 40 footer called the Cu na Mara ( hound of the sea i think ) Sealink wanted the name for their new Jetfoil but as you know Munster , its unlucky to change rename a yacht . Anyway the oul man said no to Ronnie Delaney and that was that . Poor old Ronnie never did strike gold again . The Jetfoil spent more time going up and down the liffey than a hooker with a mortgage . The coast of Dublin is beautiful for yachting and many an evening spent moored at Dalkey Island sipping Pimms . Maybe we should arrange a trip , sail around Ireland when it becomes United.

    Reader,

    Maybe When Sinn Fein take their seats at westminister and convince the english voting public who don’t need much convincing . Maybe the British Govt will shaft you the way they have shafted the real british people . Maybe europe will get involved , maybe the new incoming pan republican southern govt have a few tricks up their sleeve . Now that money isn’t the be all and end all for people , who knows . A united Ireland is like the post . You know its coming , you’re just not sure when .

  • Mark

    Pippakin , we are going to need a few first mates for our trip , pay is good.

  • Niccolo

    Mark,

    Come along now, don’t shoot the messenger and play the ball….

    How many prisoners did the Provisional IRA take?

  • Mark

    GLC ,

    I am sorry to hear about your friend and even after 30 odd years , the pain is still there . I lost a best friend 20 years ago and more recently a younger brother . So I understand your pain but it won’t change my mind about PIRA being honourable and their war being just . Mt comment was in relation to the cages in long kesh but i suspect you knew that .Its no good trying to turn me into a pariah . I’m not the enemy .We both know it’s not really up to you as to whether you stay a UK citizen , I mean come on . You don’t trust the brit govt do you . GLC , Unionists are not blameless in all this , you pushed your luck for years and everyone knows this , that’s why there isn’t much sympathy for you .Did you watch the protests in england , it won’t be too long before the english electorate turns her attention in your direction . And then what.

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    They didn’t need to . Sure weren’t the British army prisoners in their own barracks . They had to fly in toilet paper . Soldiers were known to forge the reg plates of cars rather then show their heads . How many US soldiers are in pow camps in afghanistan Niccolo or whoever you are , I’m sure we have met before . What about Jewish soldiers in palestine , Do you know the diference between conventional war and guerilla war or are you going to say , Ah but mark you said war not guerilla war , come on ???? you know the rules only too well.

  • Niccolo

    Mark,

    I’m shrugging my shoulders.

    It’s a straight question and warrants a straight answer….

    How many prisoners did the Provisional IRA take?

  • Munsterview

    Pip,

    Na, Nan Na , Nan Na, just because you only have a Broomstickl!

  • Munsterview

    Mark : “…..Maybe we should arrange a trip , sail around Ireland when it becomes United…..”

    Have they not told you ? Ireland liberation now, Rockall next !

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    It’s not a straight question , it’s about as straight as Graham Norton ( and before you start ringing Peter Tatchell , that was a joke / defence mechanism ) . We both know ( and you opened the door ) PIRA don’t take prisoners . For your benefit Niccolo , it wasn’t practical to operate IRA prisons for obvious logistical reasons ( availability of land , garda presence haha etc ) There was also no legal system available to process said pows and all available monies went on operations . But you know all this ( check profile ) and are looking to get a rise out of me . Of all the things i have posted in the last 24 hrs , you pick this ? The male ego is a funny thing .

  • pippakin

    MV

    Liberation? the only liberation required at the moment is from the EU and the banks and which way its done its going to take time.

    This thread is interesting a speech written off as nothing is shown to have possible back up from other sauces. SF are not home dry yet.

    Which brings me neatly to Mark. I don’t get my feet wet for just anyone!

    And MV you forgot the cats and dogs.

  • pippakin

    MV

    Liberation? the only liberation required at the moment is from the EU and the banks and which way its done its going to take time.

    This thread is interesting a speech written off as nothing is shown to have possible back up from other sources. SF are not home dry yet.

    Which brings me neatly to Mark. I don’t get my feet wet for just anyone!

    And MV you forgot the cats and dogs.

  • pippakin

    Sorry! I tried to correct a spelling mistake…

  • Mark

    Jaysus Pippakin , I think JoeC’s little green monster will be out any minute .

  • pippakin

    Mark

    Green monster! Is that my inner Shinner???

    An election is coming, relax its just starting. I won’t be surprised if its a revelation/reminder a day.

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    And no better place than this melting pot .

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Inner shinner , very good . remember the incredible hulk .Don’t make me anger , you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry . Dr David Banner, we have our own mad doctors over here .

  • pippakin

    Mark

    I remember the comic book Incredible Hulk I never bothered with the tv series or the film, too boring.

    The only people to blame for SFs reputation is SF. If you are going to go into one every time someone has a go at SF you’re in for a rough couple of months.

    I’m going to wait and see how much mud sticks.

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Have you taken a couple of extra sleeping tablets ?

  • Munsterview

    Alias….

    Been somewhat neglecting you of late I am afraid but I am now about to remedy that. In fact I need to some advice as I am trying to get a handle on this morality ‘thing’ it seems that you think that there is a deficit of it in Irish Republicanism. However I will bow to your expertise in this field and I thought to my self Alias, now there is a man that can help with this vexing question !

    I am sure that an expert on morality like your good self will not allow the fact that you are the proud holder of an Israeli passport in any way color your judgement.

    I know that the British Army were in then in Palestine lawfully as their Government were mandated to be there by the League of Nations, for now we will over look that little fact, as you know from the Northern Irish situation these ‘Mandates’ can be tricky business.

    These are but two files from my collection, if you do not have enough information I can get you another few dozen : in fact I can get you hundreds more; thousands even!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

    Please look up the list and tell me how many on it were murdered / killed / terminated as an acts of terrorism, since the British were there with the full force of International Law and the terrorists had what mandate again ?

    Abstract……..

    1939, August 27
    2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.

    1944, September 27
    Unknown number of casualties, around 150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations

    1944, September 29
    1 Senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem.

    1945, December 27
    7 British policemen killed during the bombing of British Intelligence offices in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv

    1946, July 22
    91 people were killed at King David Hotel Bombing mostly civilians, most … staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
    41 Palestinian Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.

    1946, October 30
    2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.

    1946, October 31
    Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.

    1947, January 12
    4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.

    1947, March 1
    17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.

    This is from the second list; again you will see that it is extensive but having given it your consideration, I would very much like your views on it. Admittedly it makes the IRA lists like a Teddy Bears Picnic regarding British Army casualties, what can I say…. they tried right?

    http://www.rense.com/general81/tedp.htm

    Abstract……..

     Assassination of Lord Moyne on November 6, 1944. Under orders from Yitzhak Shamir, terrorists of the Stern Gang shot Lord Moyne, British resident minister. Purpose: To drive the British from Palestine.
     
    · The King David massacre, July 22, 1946. Begin’s Irgun terrorists, with encouragement from Ben-Gurion’s Hagana, blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, murdering 92. Purpose: Destroy British records that proved the highest members of the Zionist government backed anti-British terrorism. 4
     
    · British sergeants hanged, July 12, 1947. Begin, Shamir, and Haganah authorized kidnapping and hanging of two British sergeants, booby trapping their bodies and mining the area. During this time, Shamir sent many letters and package bombs to British officials. 1947 also included multiple cases of kidnappings (including brutal floggings of British soldiers) by Jewish terrorists.
     

  • pippakin

    Mark

    I never take sleeping tablets. You are going to need a large yacht.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Mark: ‘A united Ireland is like the post . You know its coming , you’re just not sure when.’

    Your reply to Reader concerning a UI could equally have been written in 1922, 1950, 1990, insert your own date. You have a pocketful of maybes but a rather tricky reality:

    The GFA, which SF signed up to, provides for continued partition until a majority in NI vote otherwise in a border poll. Every opinion poll I’ve seen indicates less than 30% support for a UI, regardless of demographics, and if there were a snowball’s chance in hell of 50+1, Gerry et al would be banging a bin lid near you for a poll next week.

    The Brit govt, which you advise me not to trust, held fast to NI throughout the worst the provos had to offer. I’m hedging my bets they’re in it for the long haul.

    And let’s just look at the unfolding scenario across the border. The republic is facing years if not decades of austerity, regardless of who sits in the dail. Anyone who thinks that the likes of SF have a magic bullet to turn things around really are clutching at straws. You’re going to see massive emigration and the republic reverting to it’s previous status as an economic backwater. You really think a mantra of ‘come and join us’ is going to be attractive?

    ‘Unionists are not blameless in all this , you pushed your luck for years and everyone knows this , that’s why there isn’t much sympathy for you’

    Agreed on the first part Mark — Unionism has been a notoriously stupid and often dangerous beast in the past, with a complete lack of talent in the PR dept. Even today it’s not uncommon to encounter Americans and indeed Brits who have absolutely no idea that NI is not 100% Roman Catholic and that Unionists do actually have a just cause. Even on this site (which I’m only an occasional poster on) I genuinely surprised a regular last year by ‘revealing’ that only 5% of NI Protestants are members of the Orange Order.
    Hence my earlier comment regarding admiration for the RM’s spin & propaganda machine.

  • Alias

    MV, I’m always happy to assist the Shinners with a bit of remedial education about the meaning of republicanism, and I’m delighted that you have noticed your own considerable deficiency in that regard as that improved grasp of reality shows progress.

    A nation has an inalienable right to use violence, in the absence of alternative means, to assert a claim to national self-determination. That, of course, is what the Jewish nation did in reclaiming its homeland, and is also what the Irish nation did.

    However, once that nation has achieved its claim to national self-determination, and duly taken its place among the elite sovereign nations of the world, then it is bound by the principle of national self-determination.

    As a Shinner, you wouldn’t have any understanding that self-determination is a collective right under Irish constitutional law (see Article 1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann) and under international law (see the UN’s ICCPR). In fact, you’re unlikely to know what a collective right is, so let me help you out there too. A collective right is any right held by a group and not by any individual members of that group. All human rights, for example, are collective rights.

    What that means is that the collective decide via an act of self-determination what their national policy or action should be, and what is doesn’t mean is that the will of individuals can legitimately usurp the will of the collective.

    So, for example, if a bunch of individuals formed a murder gang to assert some policy or carry out some violent action that could properly only be determined or undertaken by the collective then they would be acting contrary to the principle of national self-determination and their policy or actions would have no legitimacy whatsoever. They would, of course, be properly classified under international and constitutional law as criminals.

    So that is the difference between the IRA and a squalid sectarian murder gang such as PIRA: the former asserted a claim to national self-determination and were bound by the principle of self-determination once they had achieved it, and the other violated the principle of self-determination because they had no understanding of it or respect for it, being a bunch of self-serving ignorant thugs.

    I hope that helps.

  • Alias

    To unmuddled that sytax: “A collective right is any right held by a group and not held exclusively by any individual members of that group.”

  • slappymcgroundout

    “el beardo presiding over a party who managed a serious political mandate AFTER their military wing stopped killing people.”

    Good to see that you are living in fantasyland. Don’t worry, you’re not alone. Well, worry, but take some small measure of solace in the fact that you are not alone. Your proposition is an absurdity. You posit that some didn’t vote Sinn Fein owing to PIRA killing. Then you posit that once the killing stopped, some voted for the killers who made no apology for their killing. What happened to their moral qualm?

    You might wish to read the Pipster’s post on the demise of Fianna Fail. They didn’t kill anybody and while not entirely contrite, they appear to be more contrite than Sinn Fein-PIRA. Yet according to PIP, it may be several elections in the dustbin for them.

    I would suggest that you come up with another theory. Nice that you and the Stoops posit the absurd, that those who had qualms over killing then went on to vote for unrepentant killers, but as the late Huey Long was so fond of saying, that dog don’t hunt. I would suggest instead that you get an imaginary vision of me in Belfast at the time. Smart human that I am, I would have carried my SDLP membership card in my wallet, and worn my “Vote SDLP” t-shirt or sweatshirt or parka. That way, maybe your unionist friends in the UVF think twice about shooting random Catholic me.

    In other words, there was a reason to vote SDLP that had nothing to do with objection to Sinn Fein-PIRA. Certainly, I am safe in assuming that if it was me in my Vote SDLP shirt and the other soul in his Vote Sinn Fein shirt, walking down the one street at night, your friends in the UVF shoot the other soul instead of me. And so maybe it was more defensive than anything else, at least for some, those who went on to give Sinn Fein its electoral lead over the SDLP, as I am sure that whatever moral qualm there was in shooting the random Catholic would have rather evaporated had Sinn Fein carried the day while the UVF was not on ceasefire. And so imaginary me voted SDLP to preserve life but when that threat was over, I vote Sinn Fein. Makes a whole lot more sense than positing that those who had moral qualm over killing just up and one day decided to vote for unrepentant killers.

    Lastly, a third hypothesis is simply that in the cool, calm, reflective light of a later day, some ratified the prior struggle via voting for those who make no apology for having killed in the name of their struggle.

    My two are infinitely preferred over your fantasyland one, as you and the rest of the inhabitants of fantasyland can’t and so never have posited an explanation for why some abandoned their moral qualm over killing in favor of voting for unrepentent killers.

    Almost forgot, but you might also try the notion of cause and effect. For what I mean, from the Wiki page on the PIRA’s South Armagh Brigade:

    However, the IRA campaign in the area did not begin in earnest until 1971. In August of that year, two South Armagh men were shot and one killed by the British Army in Belfast, having been mistaken for gunmen. This caused outrage in the South Armagh area, provided the IRA with many new recruits and created a climate where local people were prepared to tolerate the killing of security force members.

    Next, learn your history. Darkley was arms supplied by the INLA to some who had lost family to the UDR. When your law enforcement authority refused to deal with those who boasted openly of killing their relatives and promised to kill yet more, some said there were going to be drastic consequences. Darkley was that consequence. The three men dead is the same total as were killed by that one RUC fellow at the one Sinn Fein office following Teebane. By the way, I am being generous here, as Tim Pat reports that it was but the one man who perpetrated Darkley.

    Lastly, ironic that you mentioned Teebane. Since it was immediately following that event that Gerry said that that “tragic event” highlighted the “urgent need for an inclusive dialogue which can create a genuine peace process.”

  • slappymcgroundout

    “A nation has an inalienable right to use violence…”

    You might wish to read up on the law of self-defense. Is an individual and not a collective right. And you might say that some see their self-defense as being part of a united ROI. Not only applies to their right to physical safety, but all their other rights as well. Rather less likely to suffer all that historic discrimination in a united ROI than in a Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Protestants surely understand the point, as similar anticipated discrimination towards them in a united ROI has always played a critical role in their refusal to unite with you and yours.

    Lastly, when you speak to those of old, try being objective. The IRA never were the majority. For irony, just as the population of the ROI ratified the actions of the IRA, so too the Catholic population of Northern Ireland ratified the actions of Sinn Fein-PIRA. And there goes your entire premise. And you can figure out for yourself what the fact of partition does with the remains of your claim that some of old were acting according to the collective will. Apparently not, since if they had been, there would be no partition.

  • Nunoftheabove

    slappmcgroundout

    Depends what or whose law on self-defence you’re referring to…..

    Interesting counter-balance between the legitimacy of protestant fears about discrimination in a UI on one hand with a decades long determination to discriminate against northern non-unionists on the other. Very Israeli altogether.

  • Munsterview

    Many thanks for that clarification : most people would of course view things a little different and come to other conclusions when viewing those lists and comparing the situation to Ireland.

    Guess it is one of those things that one needs to be an Israeli Citizen and passport holder such as your good self to understand.

    Another of these things that I have always been a little bemused by is the insistence of Israel in the UN and States for International sanctions against Iran who have declared their Nuclear industry, such as it is, and have opened this up to UN inspectors and International Nuclear Energy Inspectors, while continually denying the Israeli’s own State possession of Nuclear reactors or that in fact they are a Nuclear power.

    Just one of those things I guess !

  • Munsterview

    Slappy…..

    Slappy :…Lastly, a third hypothesis is simply that in the cool, calm, reflective light of a later day, some ratified the prior struggle via voting for those who make no apology for having killed in the name of their struggle…..”

    Slappy try this for a fourth ?

    When I went to the north in the early seventies, I circulated in and in the main stayed with families that had generations of Republicanism behind them. In those early years there was an unspoken two-tier Republicanism, the core families that had been there for the long haul and those who had come more recently as result of the troubles.

    I can recall one young guy getting fulsome praise and Maura Drumm remarking ” Aye lets see what he is like in twenty years time” The attitudes that I found at that time among people such as Maura I then put down to elitism. However I was to find during my history studies for my masters that there was a scientific term for it, known by the nomenclature of Survival Strategy.

    Seen through this prism, it made perfect sense, Republicans were a community within a community and among the survival strategies was the toleration only of those who did not belong but wanted to be part until they had proved worthy of trust. When Ketson and Co turned the Nationalist North into one large lab. to try out his theories, his ‘siege conditions’ for communities telescoped down the acceptance period from a decade to inside a year.

    Young vols. absorbed the military skills needed for the Armed Struggle, but the movement as a whole grew so fast, events were too disruptive and the leisurely time aspect was not there to aquire the evolved survival strategy ethos. The new expanded movement threw up it’s own ethos incorporating some of the old but by in large coming from the then experiencing of the activists and the community they were part of.

    By the mid seventies this new ethos was in place but was by in large a working class urban thing. In the rural areas it was very much a parents generation SDLP, youth ‘RA. The Brits again came to the rescue with the hunger strikes and suddenly there was no more middle ground, the republicans flowed into it and while the SDLP pols tried to hold the line their people on the ground in the GAA and Comhtals etc came out in their droves to support the Hunger strikers….. and many never went back.

    By the late eighties the odd Doctor, Engineer or other professional could be found in Republican ranks, by the ceasefire in the nineties more and more young people from Republican communities were third level graduates and it was no longer a novelty to be a professional and a SF supporter. The other characteristic I observed from the post Hunger strikes on is that it was a Republican community ethos that prevailed, even among the young generation of traditional republican families.

    The latter of course made entrance and assimilation easier and accelerated Republican Movement expansion. When the main trust of the Movement was changed from military to political activity, the indians were already there, waiting and motivated for the chiefs to lead. In fact they already were a few chiefs there who had come by the political route only. The division lines between SF / SDLP are now somewhat akin to the Southern Fianna Failure / Fine Gael.

    There is however this difference, Sinn Fein is taking under thirty voters at a ration of three or four to one compare to the SDLP. This is where the SDLP have big problems, once a seat like Fermanagh / South Tyrone is lost to the SDLP it will stay lost because of the young voter factor. SF voter base is continually expanding, the SDLP’s are literally dying off.

    I pursued the feelings about this seat during Doherty’s recent election and one wag assured me that the SDLP were no problem for the next election unless they got self powered Zimmer frames !

    By in large the Armed Struggle or the activities of it do not arise within the expanded Republican community. The recent election of a Unionist leader who made the curbing of Republican Power inside the Northern Exectuive and Assembly a plank of his election platform, is a constant reminder to them that nothing is written in stone and that while there may be new Unionists, there is plenty Old Unionism still about.

    If my generation of Republicans would not accept that anymore back in 1970 then the current educated young generation are far less likely to do so four full decades and forty years later!

    Continuing intransigence, a lack of intelligence and awareness in dealing with Nationalists and Republicans by a significant sector of Unionism is a constant reminder of what these people were really like when they had untrammeled power and what they would still do if given the opportunity without determined Republican Opposition.

    Mutual Assured Destruction (political) and ‘Peace’ as in absence of most of the previous war, is as good as it gets for now and the foreseeable future. What is more, outside of the North and Republicans no body gives a damm any more!

  • Niccolo

    Mark,

    Thanks for answering my question, albeit at the third time of asking.

    Let’s deal with some of your comments concerning the Provisional IRA, point by point….

    “they will remain an honourable and just army and that’s the way history will remember them”?

    Yes indeed, the World ‘gets’ the Republican movement alright. To quote U2’s Bono after the IRA’s Remembrance Day massacre in Enniskillen, 1987, “What’s the glory in taking a man from his bed and gunning him down in front of his wife and his children? Where’s the glory in that? Where’s the glory in bombing a Remembrance Day parade of old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where’s the glory in that? To leave them dying, or crippled for life, or dead under the rubble of a revolution that the majority of the people in my country don’t want.” The Provisional IRA were responsible for, by far, the greatest number of deaths during the ‘Troubles’ in all of the following categories; women (139), old age pensioners (90), children (47), innocent civilians (512), Protestants (795), and Roman Catholics (342). In total they took the lives of some 1709 people not including those murdered under nom de guerres or “the disappeared”. I’m afraid history has already defined them in terms of touts, atrocities, decommissioning, and defeat.

    “You’re either going to die or end up in prison for a very long time” and “British Soldiers….fought IRA soldiers in a war”?

    Not at all….”IRA soldiers” when apprehended by British soldiers were tried in open courts, given full and free access to the British legal system, afforded rights of appeal, and, if convicted, sent to prison (with access to education, family visits, in a comfortable environment). In contrast, British soldiers when apprehended by ”IRA soldiers” were executed.

    “Soldiers shoot each other in a war”?

    In Loughgall 1987, 8 known IRA terrorists each armed with heavy-duty assault rifles in the back of a stolen van parked outside a police station in the middle of the night were shot dead by British soldiers. Provisional Sinn Fein still describes this as a “shoot-to-kill” incident, whereas the killing of British paratroops at Warrenpoint in 1979 was a legitimate military operation. Perhaps you can explain the difference?

    “it won’t be too long before the English electorate turns her attention in your direction . And then what.”?

    This point betrays a lack of understanding of what is enshrined in the Belfast and St. Andrews’ Agreements. It is for the people of Northern Ireland alone to decide its constitutional position. The English electorate has nothing to do with it. Unless, of course, you know different.

    Therefore, in summary:

    As you describe it, it was a war where only one side took prisoners, only one side’s soldiers had access to a legal system, only one side’s soldiers wore uniforms, only one side’s soldiers admitted to being soldiers at all, and only one side’s soldiers had rules of engagement.

    In your words I put it to you, “you have a strange perception of what exactly a war is.”

  • Reader

    slappymcgroundout: In other words, there was a reason to vote SDLP that had nothing to do with objection to Sinn Fein-PIRA. Certainly, I am safe in assuming that if it was me in my Vote SDLP shirt and the other soul in his Vote Sinn Fein shirt, walking down the one street at night, your friends in the UVF shoot the other soul instead of me.
    Elections aren’t decided by counting shirts. Anyway, why wouldn’t you have a DUP shirt to be really, really safe? And the tens of thousands of people who switched votes after the ceasefire don’t need to be explained by ridiculous just-so stories. Some of them are on Slugger. Ask them.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Niccolo — excellent post (9.15am).

    Exactly what I’ve been trying to say but put much better than I ever could.

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    You got a good laugh when you started quoting Bono to me. It’s funny because their recording studio was beside my office for 10 years . There was graffiti on the wall at the end of the road which read ” Hey Bono , thanks for bringing peace to the North haha ” .

    Thanks for your thanks this morning regarding my answering your loaded rather silly question about IRA jails . I hope you will be as forthright in answering any questions I may have . Here’s the first one.

    Do you understand the difference between a conventional war and a guerilla war . If so , could you differentiate between the two . I would appreciate if you could answer this as it will determine whether I can take you seriously or not .

    You mention loughall and Sinn Fein’s reaction to it . From what I know ( not what I’ve read ) the IRA while reeling from the loss , understood the theatre of war and all it’s ramifications . Sinn Fein obviously tried to garner sympathy because that’s what a political wing does . Are you still with me Niccolo ?.

    You say that IRA soldiers ” when apprehended were tried in open courts , givin full and free access to the British legal system ” . Are you being serious ? We both know that at the time the IRA didn’t recognise the courts ( the diplock courts ) . Are these the same courts that convicted the Guilford 4 , Birmingham 6 or the Maguire’s . When the IRA decided to play the court system , the British govt / British army killed their legal reps .

    You reference to the Good Friday Agreement ( Belfast ) and your presumpation that I would be influenced by Bono sheds light on how you see southern irish people . Your old school unionist views seem desperate to me . Niccolo , if / when there is a United Ireland , I will be very happy .If it doesn’t happen in my lifetime , it’s not the end of the world for me as I am content and secure in my own identity . can you say the same ?

    I would however appreciate if you would show me the same courtesy and answer my question regarding the difference between a conventional war and a guerilla war . I await your reply with baited breath .

    PS – GLC , your reply came from the heart , can’t say the same for Niccolo.

  • Munsterview

    Nicollo & Gerry Lc et al

    I have gone into detail of Counter Insurgency Operations, carried out within the context of the Low Intensity War in previous threads, some quite recently and I do not propose to do so here. There is an intellectual dishonesty at work here to deny that such things existed despite all proof to the contrary. This War involved the totality of all State Forces in Northern Ireland. This of course have been ignored by the usual suspects. As I recently posted……..

    “……Given these demonstrated communication skills and and displayed au fait with security matters, the poster concerned cannot be accused of naivety or political illiteracy, the opposites of the traits referred to considered, distasteful as it may be, the reluctant conclusion is unavoidable that most such overt and covert polemics against Republicans regarding their use of armed force is nothing other than rank hypocrisy.
    Much may be the truth, but, it is far from the whole truth and nothing but the truth! What is more the poster concerned cannot but know that fact!…..”

    While I know the Old Maxim holds that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see etc, I also accept that there are also readers and posters here open to consideration of the whole truth.

    FM 100-20 Chapter 1 Fundamentals Of Low Intensity Conflict
    Low intensity conflict is a political-military confrontation between contending states or groups below conventional war and above the routine, peaceful competition among states. It frequently involves protracted struggles of competing principles and ideologies. Low intensity conflict ranges from subversion to the use of armed force. It is waged by a combination of means, employing political, economic, informational, and military instruments. Low intensity conflicts are often localized, generally in the Third World, but contain regional and global security implications.

    Low Intensity War is disguised under Low Intensity Conflict to avoid the ‘War’ word.

    Google : Counter Insurgence Operations Northern Ireland 42,300 results.

    Low Intensity War Northern Ireland,…..54, 400 results

    British Army Low intensity War, Northern Ireland…25,000 results

    Low Intensity Conflict Northern Ireland + British Military Security Sales
    1,920,000….. One million, nine hundred and twenty thousand results.

    The results speak for themselves. There can be but two kinds of denial in the face of this evidence, the first are the genuinely uninformed who either do not know or want to know.

    The others are the usual suspects who either have been, or still are, or who are otherwise fully supportive of the Low Intensity Conflict Operations.

    These are involved in deliberate disinformation, for them the war is ongoing, they are as unapologetic for their politics as I am for mine, with this exception, I am overt on where I stand, they are covert and only show their true anti Republican contempt and prejudice under a pseudo posting like the one recently unmasked here in Slugger that had an opinion on everything determential to Republicans / Nationalists until I blew that particular cover.

    They have not gone away you know!

    Here are some of the Thousands that boast of their Northern Ireland Low Intensity War/Conflict experience in their Security Sales Advisory Services.

    Charles Bennett is a former British Army Officer and ex-Police Inspector (in Zimbabwe) with a background in internal security operations and training in Africa and Northern Ireland.
    He has also had a varied career in several fields including civilian security and other commercial management and consultancy in Africa and in London; political research and analysis, mainly Northern Ireland related; ‘post-conflict’ re-construction in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Kosovo (including Counter-Narcotics and Electoral work), and other work in Africa, Greece and the Middle East.

    He has a History Degree (BA (Hons) 2:1) from the School of Oriental & African Studies (University of London) gained as a mature student – 1993-96. He married Diana, a farmer’s daughter from West Tyrone, in 2002, but unfortunately she suffered from a form of cancer soon afterwards with the result that they have no children.
    A full professional profile is visible on ‘LinkedIn’ at:
    http://uk.linkedin.com/in/charlesanselmbennett

    “……. political research and analysis, mainly Northern Ireland related;…..”

    Yes indeed Charlie or should I say Major Charles ! Not too much you do not know about Low Intensity Conflict in Northern Ireland I would imagine since you were a prominent part of it and all the skullduggery it entailed.

    But closer to our own time for another example !

    Armchair General and the Colby Symposium in 2010 » Armchair General

    “….COL. RICHARD IRON, BRITISH ARMY
    Richard Iron is an active service Colonel in the British Army, currently Defense Fellow at Oxford University. He has served in, studied and written on counterinsurgency operations including Oman, Northern Ireland and Sierra Leone. He contributed the chapter on Northern Ireland in Counterinsurgency in Modern Warfare. His most recent operational experience was as senior mentor to the Iraqi Commander in Basra during 2008, including planning and executing Operation Charge of the Knights…..”

    Yes indeed another man that I dare say see a body or two in his training and one who would know what a terrorist bomb looks like. Now a little memory jog as to what these people were about.

    How British military intelligence created, funded and trained …

    “…..10 Feb 2009 … At times, he was given a British army uniform to provide him with cover … Other classes included lectures on forensic science, … the reasons for the army creating these secret counter-insurgency cells …. 3 for 1 sale for the New World Order: Guns, North

    He also claims select UVF officers were ordered by military intelligence to carry out assassinations against both IRA figures and ordinary Catholics. Such soft targets as innocent men and women were pinpointed by military intelligence in order to psychologically undermine the nationalist population of Northern Ireland and cut the support base from beneath the Provisional IRA…”

    I do not have to make the case that there was was and is a Low Intensity War/Conflict in Northern Ireland, Hundreds of British Army Officers serving and ex if not thousands are making the case for me all over the internet. The information is only a google click away!

    There can be but two reasons for this continual denial, those who do not know or as most posters here in this regard, those who bloody know all too well what is happening and fully support it now as their kind did back then.

    This is the true reality of Northern Ireland, a scaled back but still fully operational Low Intensity War / Conflict. All the details are but a google search away!

  • Reader

    Mark: We both know that at the time the IRA didn’t recognise the courts ( the diplock courts ) . Are these the same courts that convicted the Guilford 4 , Birmingham 6 or the Maguire’s .
    Nope – they were tried in front of a jury in England, instead. That was so much better than a Diplock court, wasn’t it?

  • Mark

    Reader ,

    Oh there’s a difference is there ?

  • Mark

    Reader ,

    I remember looking for a flat in central london in the mid 80’s . I picked up a copy of one of the red tops and there was advice on how to spot an IRA bombing team – ” they will more than likely be young , wearing demin and posing as a couple ” .

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Low Intensity Conflict Northern Ireland + British Military Security Sales 1,920,000….. One million, nine hundred and twenty thousand results.
    The results speak for themselves. There can be but two kinds of denial in the face of this evidence,

    9 11 conspiracy theories = About 10,200,000 results
    moon landing hoax = 2,320,000 results
    yeti = About 11,500,000 results
    British hero = About 7,940,000 results
    And “The results speak for themselves.” Good to see your research methods are paying off in new scientific and historical insights!
    Munsterview: I do not have to make the case that there was was and is a Low Intensity War/Conflict in Northern Ireland,
    Correct, since no-one is denying there was. Instead, people are challenging your non-canonical extensions to the handbook. Strangely enough, your technique of drifting off into incoherent rambling at the point where you ought to get really tight and specific is undermining your efforts.

  • Reader

    Mark: Oh there’s a difference is there ?
    Yes, Diplock courts had a higher rate of acquittal, maybe because the judges were less likely to read red-tops than jury members would be.
    The IRA’s refusal to recognise the courts wasn’t based on procedural issues, but I’m sure you know that. And it didn’t last as long as you seem to think it did.

  • PaddyReilly

    they were tried in front of a jury in England

    Not quite. Paul Hill was first convicted by a Diplock Court (on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, except of course a confession extracted by torture). He was then placed before an English jury unable to defend himself properly (under the rules of evidence he could not denounce his torturers) and his conviction then used to drag down the other accused (one of whom was English and had been photographed by the local papers many miles away on the night in question).

    One spoonful of shit renders a whole cauldron of soup unfit to eat.

  • Mark

    Reader ,

    It lasted as long as it was a good idea and you’re right , the IRA did roll with the punches and revised their strategy in the early 80’s . As soon as Pat Finucane made his name with the Pat McKeown case , Dr Kelly’s killers made plans .

  • Niccolo

    Mark,

    Again, let’s deal with some of your comments, point by point….

    “You got a good laugh when you started quoting Bono to me. It’s funny because their recording studio was beside my office for 10 years . There was graffiti on the wall at the end of the road which read ” Hey Bono , thanks for bringing peace to the North haha ”.”

    This seems to be some sort of anecdote about Bono. Does it mean you agree or disagree with his analysis?

    “Thanks for your thanks this morning regarding my answering your loaded rather silly question about IRA jails.”

    I give up….what was loaded or silly about my question? Just wondering but should I always expect to ask 3 times before receiving a response?

    “Do you understand the difference between a conventional war and a guerilla war?”

    Yes, I do.

    “If so, could you differentiate between the two?”

    Certainly. Conventional war (e.g. the World Wars) involves the forces of nation states that openly engage each other on land, at sea, or in the air. For signatory countries the rules outlined in the Geneva Convention are observed and adhered to. Guerrilla war is a form of warfare by which a strategically weaker side assumes the tactical offensive in selected forms, times and places against a militarily superior opponent. Guerilla groups can and often do fight according to conventions of war, taking and exchanging prisoners and respecting the rights of non-combatants. A more appropriate question would be….does either term apply to the Provisional IRA’s 30+ year campaign?

    “You mention loughall and Sinn Fein’s reaction to it . From what I know ( not what I’ve read ) the IRA while reeling from the loss , understood the theatre of war and all it’s ramifications . Sinn Fein obviously tried to garner sympathy because that’s what a political wing does . Are you still with me Niccolo?”

    Once again, you have not answered a direct question.
    Would you please explain why the killing of armed “IRA soldiers” at Loughall in 1987 was a “shoot-to-kill” incident whilst the killing of British paratroops at Warrenpoint in 1979 was a legitimate military operation?

    “You say that IRA soldiers ” when apprehended were tried in open courts , givin full and free access to the British legal system ” . Are you being serious ? We both know that at the time the IRA didn’t recognise the courts ( the diplock courts ) . Are these the same courts that convicted the Guilford 4 , Birmingham 6 or the Maguire’s . When the IRA decided to play the court system , the British govt / British army killed their legal reps.”

    All captured “IRA soldiers” were tried in open courts, given full and free access to the British legal system, afforded rights of appeal, and, if convicted, sent to prison. Unlike their British counterparts, these “soldiers” were not routinely executed. This is a matter of historical fact. Recognition of the courts has nothing to do with one side taking prisoners and the other dispensing summary ‘justice’. The Diplock court system was brought into being as a result of IRA intimidation of juries. Also, Diplock courts were not involved in the cases you site. Where mistakes were made or injustice later brought to light, the state apologised, acknowledged its shortcomings, and appropriate compensation was paid to those involved. As, by your own admission, the Provisional IRA did not take prisoners shamefully this was not and never will be a problem for them.

    Would you please name, outlining your proof, the legal representatives killed by the British Government or British Army?

    “You reference to the Good Friday Agreement ( Belfast ) and your presumpation that I would be influenced by Bono sheds light on how you see southern irish people . Your old school unionist views seem desperate to me . Niccolo , if / when there is a United Ireland , I will be very happy .If it doesn’t happen in my lifetime , it’s not the end of the world for me as I am content and secure in my own identity . can you say the same ?”

    I simply stated a fact about the principle of consent enshrined in both the Belfast and St. Andrews’ Agreements. As for the rest of this paragraph well, you just relax back into playing the man and not the ball.

    Lastly, I do wish you’d get to the point in the future.

    Speculating about motivation or the manner in which questions were posed is transparent and juvenile behaviour and, for me, is in the same category as foul language and threats. Please try to raise your game.

  • Niccolo

    Munsterview,

    I posed a simple question….

    How many prisoners did the Provisional IRA take?

    In response, and for reasons best known to yourself, you seem to have felt the need to fill the screen with what is clearly a shabby cut-and-paste from some other discussion you’d much rather be having. Sadly it’s not the first time I’ve seen you do this.

    I agree with Reader, “….your technique of drifting off into incoherent rambling at the point where you ought to get really tight and specific is undermining your efforts.”

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    No Boyzone quotes tonight . Listen , I’m only in the door 20 minutes , could I have your permission to go down to Eddie Rockets ? I see from a quick scan of your response that you have a few questions . Back in about an hour . Stick on some Westlife till I get back.

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    Just tried submitting my post but I wasn’t logged in and now the post in wiped . Muse have been because of my comment relating to the fact that you were privvy to the same security briefings given to David Trimble.

  • Munsterview

    Niccolo (profile) : “…….In response, and for reasons best known to yourself, you seem to have felt the need to fill the screen with what is clearly a shabby cut-and-paste from some other discussion you’d much rather be having. Sadly it’s not the first time I’ve seen you do this……”

    Of course it is not and you may also be prepared to see the process regularly repeated. It is called ‘contextualization’ Old Chap, or at least I assume ‘Old Chap’ is appropriate as unlike my good self you do not seem to have filled in your profile and let sluggerites know where you are coming from. However not to quibble !

    “….. a shabby cut-and-paste from some other discussion…..” Indeed !

    I have constantly held that almost all of the paramilitary and allied activity, armed militant or political took place within the context of a Low Intensity War /Conflict situation and having postulated that proposition, I provided the reasons for my belief.

    Any reasonable person requiring answers and googing some of the 1.9 million results from the search, will quickly establish the facts and scale of the past and ongoing Low Intensity War / Conflict in Northern Ireland by copying the following…….Low Intensity Conflict Northern Ireland + British Military Security Sales ……. into the google search box and researching the topic for themselves.

    As I posted elsewhere little of the Northern Ireland conflict makes much sense when events are considered in isolation, but when considered within the totality of Country Insurgency Operations of Low Intensity War/Conflict, there is little that happened that cannot be explained!

    Somewhere up ahead I will devote a blog to the topic where these things can be properly discussed in context.

  • Niccolo

    Munsterview,

    “Of course it is not and you may also be prepared to see the process regularly repeated. It is called ‘contextualization’ Old Chap, or at least I assume ‘Old Chap’ is appropriate as unlike my good self you do not seem to have filled in your profile and let sluggerites know where you are coming from. However not to quibble!”

    In response to comments such as, “British Soldiers….fought IRA soldiers in a war” I posed a simple and straight question….

    How many prisoners did the Provisional IRA take?

    I was hoping for a straight answer.

    Instead I got “contextualization” and an invitation to use the Google search engine.

    Also and sadly, it appears that a person’s gender (and, by implication, their politics, religion, race, etc.) matter to you and, I assume, may be raised as issues during an exchange. To invoke an oft quoted ‘house rule’ on this site – ‘play the ball not the man’. I’ve made my contributions based on the written responses of others without reference to any profile. It is enlightening though not a little disappointing that you seem either unwilling or unable to extend to me the same courtesy.

    So, what’s it to be?

    Straight answers or more games?

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    Re your last post . You initially asked me that question ( three times as I recall ) and I answered it as best I could . Your quick to quote the house rules and yet this thread was about IRA money / or lack of because of Celtic Tiger not IRA jails . You asked the question and got an answer . You then started to whataboutery which if I’m correct is one of the unwritten house rules . When people wouldn’t pander to you , you became arsey ( a term used to describe me a while back , apt to you now , it’s somewhere in between childish and stubborn ) .Why don’t you try an get into the festive spirit ? and stop being such an arse.

  • Niccolo

    Mark,

    It seems the last few days have slipped your mind….

    “Re your last post . You initially asked me that question (three times as I recall ) and I answered it as best I could.”

    I posed my question three times because you failed to answer it on the first two attempts.

    “Your quick to quote the house rules and yet this thread was about IRA money / or lack of because of Celtic Tiger not IRA jails.”

    All my contributions on this thread began with and are in response to your comment below concerning the Provisional IRA:

    “they will remain an honourable and just army and that’s the way history will remember them”

    If that is a deviation from the original thread then it is yours. I simply picked up from where you left off.

    “You asked the question and got an answer.”

    Yes thank-you, I did….eventually.

    “You then started to whataboutery which if I’m correct is one of the unwritten house rules.”

    Untrue. I dealt with your comments line by line. My responses were both apposite and to the point.

    “When people wouldn’t pander to you, you became arsey (a term used to describe me a while back, apt to you now, it’s somewhere in between childish and stubborn).”

    Again you’ve lost me. Who described you as “arsey”?

    I requested that you answer straight questions with straight answers (instead of advancing no value comments like, “I am content and secure in my own identity . can you say the same ?”), stop speculating about motivation or the manner in which questions were posed, and generally raise your game.

    “Why don’t you try an get into the festive spirit ? and stop being such an arse.”

    Unlike you, I have not stooped to foul language or petty name calling. My responses have been clear, concise, and courteous. If you are offended by either their style or content, I would suggest you’ve led a sheltered life.

    By the way, I have other questions posed to you that remain unanswered.

  • Mark

    Niccolo ,

    I take it you haven’t put the fairytales of New York on .

    Niccolo , I’m not offended by your style or content , I don’t take you as seriously as you seem to take youself . If you think the word ” arse ” is foul language , then it’s you who has led the sheltered life . I say green you say orange , anything after that is just conversation . Slugger is one of my vices , it’s the one place I know I’m not going to meet my ex wife . Please don’t take that away from me .