Jackie McDonald demands recognition for UDA

Jackie McDonald one of the UDA’s self styled “Brigadiers” has been speaking to the Belfast Telegraph. McDonald’s ire seems largely directed at Tom Elliott, who unlike McDonald did actually defend Ulster as part of the UDR: McDonald preferred being a leader of the yabba dabba doo any taig will do UDA.

It seems that Mr. McDonald is vexed that Tom Elliott did not mention the UDA in his leader’s speech:

“When they (unionist political leaders) don’t speak about us, they are telling us we don’t exist,”
On Tom Elliott’s weekend speech, he commented: “It’s disappointing that he didn’t acknowledge the efforts being made by genuine loyalists who want to play a significant role in the future, and they want to join loyalism up with unionism.
I think it was a perfect opportunity,”

Of course the reality is that woeful as the level of support the UVF linked PUP gained it was a significant mandate as compared to the completely derisory vote compiled by the UDA linked UDP (its successor the UPRG has not even dared try an election yet). Hence, when Tom Elliott (or anyone else) ignores the UDA it is because they are politically irrelevant. Unfortunately they are relevant in that they run the extortion rackets, drug dealing, prostitution etc. which helps blight the areas they infest. Just as Tom Elliott did not make positive reference to the UDA, politicians in Manchester and other large cities do not laud the drug gangs which infest those areas.

McDonald also demanded recognition for other UDA “achievements”:

“Peter Robinson and Tom Elliott have to appreciate the efforts that have been made in recent years by ex-combatants, ex-prisoners and ex-paramilitaries at interfaces and reaching out across the divide,”

The reaching out in question has usually involved encouraging low level anti social sectarian thuggery along with making a great play of supposedly trying and with difficulty succeeding in reducing tensions after they (the UDA) have been instrumental in stoking them in the first place.

Almost laughable if it were not so sinister McDonald also stated that loyalist paramilitaries had “earned the right to have a say in the future of this country.”

Again the UDA (or UVF) have earned no such right: having as mentioned above practically no electoral support and this being a democracy where a say in the future of the country is determined by a democratic vote.

The real problem here is that society is reaping what has already been sown by the likes of Tony Blair and Mo Mowlam with these individuals. McDonald himself of course has been taken golfing by the RoI president’s husband. The governments (both British and Irish) have frequently entreated with these criminals and given them credibility. Hence, when McDonald demands recognition that is because he has had it before. The UDA have, however, had far too much recognition: their thugs and murderers have been allowed out of gaol after serving but a fraction of the sentences they deserved for their crimes. This of course is not enough for the UDA: they want ongoing de facto permission to run their criminal enterprises; preferably along with money (Danegeld) not to commit even more crimes and to top it off demand praise for committing less crimes than they did before their “ceasefire.”

There is one form of recognition, however, which would undoubtedly be much more appropriate for McDonald. He is frequently described as a UDA leader and seeing as the UDA is a criminal organisation it is high time that McDonald receive appropriate recognition for that role. At least a few years residence near Lisburn would seem about right.

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  • andnowwhat

    Sorry. Should have said, “is the train of this thread/blog”

  • Blair

    Blair

    In case you are a bit thick, everyone in the B Specials joined the UDR,

    Ford,

    Er, no they didn’t. The first man to sign up to join the UDR was a Catholic. Only about half of the B Specials went on to join the UDR. They thought that the whole concept of the UDR was a disaster, because for instance whilst the B Specials could mobilise within minutes, directly from home, and put ten thousand men out on the streets at predestined locations the UDR had to report to their barracks and draw out their equipment etc.

    Not knowing that doesn’t make you thick of course. Just ignorant of the facts.

  • Blair

    “Blair

    Challenge the ‘nonsense’ with evidence then please. Oh and you may well be right about some nationalists but if that comment is directed specifically at me then, not unlike some of your other remarks, it’s a bit futile – try aiming at a nationalist instead chum, ok ?”

    Nun,

    What sort of evidence would you like? I can’t actually reproduce any news clips from the seventies for you, but if you can provide evidence of unionist politicians condoning murders carried out by loyalists I’ll be happy to look at it.

    What are your politics then chum?

  • fordprefect

    Blair

    I didn’t mention religion. I don’t care if it was a Martian that was first to join them, the fact is the B Specials and the UDR were overwhelmingly sectarian murdering bastards.

  • joeCanuck

    fordprefect,

    Is that an opinion or do you have some facts to back up such a sweeping assertion?

  • fordprefect

    Joe

    Go and read a few books on Irish history.

  • andnowwhat

    sorry for the caps……..

    THE UDA ARE DESTROYING LIVES AND COMMUNITIES NOW!!!! AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

    THEY ARE SEELING CHEAP DRUGS AND INTIMIDATING THEIR COMMUNITIES AND ONE OF THEIR LEADERS IS TRYING TO PRETNED THAT THEY HAVE SOME POLITICAL AGENDA!!!

    maybe you are a nationalist from a nationalist are and think this has nothing to do with you?

    WRONG!!!!!

    They are alsothe wholesale outlet for the very same drug issues that affect your area too.

    What is more, the police force, that YOU pay for in your taxes, are allowing them to operate freely.

    Back on topic guys. It is hardly a struggle to find anything to say on their current status

  • andnowwhat

    Should have said, “they are the wholesale outlet”

  • Blair

    “Blair

    I didn’t mention religion. I don’t care if it was a Martian that was first to join them, the fact is the B Specials and the UDR were overwhelmingly sectarian murdering bastards.”

    Ford,

    Perhaps you are a bit thick after all. Tens of thousands of people served in the B Specials and UDR. If they had been overwhelmingly sectarian murdering bastards then where on earth did they bury all the dead?

  • Nunoftheabove

    andnowhat

    Sometimes the value of threads can be measured only in relation to the distance travelled from their place of origin. This is one such, I’m afraid. McDonald’s reference to the boneheaded hoods earning the right to have a say in the future of “this country” is too pathetic to induce anything quite so much as mirth. I have, to say the very least of it, had very little nice to say about the UUP in recent days (OK, ever…) but I for one acquit Mr Elliott on all charges that he ever had the lapse in taste to even contemplate mentioning the UDA/UFF’s cornerboy riffraff ‘friends’ in his speech, leastways other than disdainfully.

    A word or two of appreciation on Mr McDonald’s part regarding the apparent blind eye (still being) turned by the tax authorities, cops and assets recovery folks to the activities of people not unadjacent to his ‘brigade’ might not go amiss. A decent society would have their law enforcement people all over his colleagues’ cheap suits like a, well, cheap suit.

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Ian Buckley, in an article appearing on the Truth Seeker website, makes mention of General Frank Kitson, a British officer “who first thought up the concept that was later used in the formation of Al Qaeda. He called it the ‘pseudo gang’—a state sponsored group used to advance an agenda, while discrediting the real opposition.
    I have read both “Gangs and counter-gangs” (1960) and “Low intensity operations” (1971). If Ian Buckley is an honest man then he has badly misunderstood the original countergang / pseudo-gang concept – which would be almost impossible to operate in western Europe, and relates to infiltration, not false flag operations. So you can’t blame Frank Kitson for yabadabadoo, but you can maybe view him as the uncle of Stakeknife and Denis Donaldson.

    “A more elaborate operation might involve the building up of a pseudo-gang from captured insurgents and the cultivation by them of a local supporters’ committee in a particular area designed ultimately to put the pseudo-gang into touch with a genuine enemy group”
    But Kitson didn’t really ‘turn’ IRA ASUs and infiltrate them into other IRA formations camping in the bush between operations. Maybe a fully revised edition of ‘Low Intensity Operations’ could revise the pseudo-gang concept as far as the SF leadership and the Good Friday Agreement.

  • Munsterview

    I would like to begin this post by extending my thanks to Turgon for providing such an appropriate context to explore the Counter Insurgency aspects of the Low Intensity War. It is much better to come on threads dealing with such material when they are initiated by a Unionist Politician, even if it is one with a miniscule support of the voting public.

    Neither do I join in the glee of most republican posters in continually pointing out this sad fact to Turgon, after all Sinn Fein as a party once languished in these low single % polls, I feel for the Great Leader ( all right to forestall criticism, I was just being generous) Would Be Leader and wish him well. I sincerely hope that he gathers more electoral support the next time out.

    With those oh so very low % the only place to go is up !

    He should hang on in there, even here in Munster I can see some of the things that he did wrong. The Truly Useless Vestige of Unionism has no doubt learned its lessons, there is absolutely no reason why he could not gain at least one more % for his party average the next time out, he may be even gain two % on a good day.

    Meanwhile back in the Real World, for the folks interests, here is some more material from my files. While Turgon kindly continues to provide me with such threads to contextualize these Counter Insurgency activities, of the Low Intensity War, I will be delighted to share even more of these files as appropriate. Many thanks Turgon !

    Now let us see what General Frank Kietson thought about Law should be used in Society ?
    Just open the following file and read the introduction where the Great Man tells it like it is. Quite simply the law becomes a subservient and useful tool in the Counter Insurgency arsenal activities of a Low Intensity War. Other wise it remains ….well The Law!

    http://www.2dix.com/pdf-2010/frank-kitson-pdf.php

    B R U T A L I T I E S
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    Brigadier Frank Kitson, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Quoted in The … CONTENTS. Foreword: Brigadier Frank Kitson … Four Phases of Torture …
    cain.ulst.ac.uk

    This next one is the granddaddy of them all, this was the first document to come into the public arena about covert warfare. Those were the days when the left was the left, it was smuggled out of official circles, and there it was for all to see : it was no longer conspiracy leftie lulu land, this was the real thing. It also gave revolutionary of the past generation like our own Cahal Goulding some measure of what they were up against in the unfolding New World Order

    Counterinsurgency: A Symposium, April 16-20, 1962
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    Frank Kitson, later described how he was struck by the unity of outlook: … Unfortunately, Frank Kinston’s observation about the difficulty in persuading “armies …
    http://www.rand.org

    In this Frank sets out his experiences in building counter terrorist gangs in Kenya. I defy any politically literate person in Ireland to read this without a sense of deja vu ! As to the rest, I will not say enjoy as it makes grim reading.

    Gangs and Counter-gangs
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    Frank Kitson’s book will be of special interest to those of us who served … secret of success of the Special Forces, as developed by Frank Kitson, was …
    http://www.kalasnyikov.h

    D I R E C T I N G O P E R A T I O N S Frank Kitson faber and …
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    © Frank Kitson, 1989. Scanned by your friendly. neighborhood genius. British Library … 1 Frank Kitson, Warfare as a Wliole, Faber and Faber, London, 1987. 3 …
    http://www.kalasnyikov.hu

     WARFARE AS A W H O L E
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    WARFARE. AS A W H O L E. Frank Kitson. faber andfaber. LONDON. BOSTON … ©Frank Kitsoii, 1987. British Library Cataloguing in Publication Data. Kitson, Frank. Warfare …
    http://www.ety.com

     Iraq, Afghanistan and British Strategy
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    Frank Kitson, Low-Intensity Operations (London: Faber and Faber, 1972) … Frank Kitson, Low Intensity Operations: Subversion, Insurgency and Peacekeeping …
    http://www.fpri.org

     Para boss ‘should have sorted Bloody Sunday’ – News – Sunday Life
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    “Though Frank Kitson was a brusque man, he knew his soldiering. … “Kitson was generally supportive, but when Wilford had finished, he offered a trenchant …
    cain.ulst.ac.uk

     MALL
    File Format : PDF Quick View File | Download PDF
    or the Englishmen Frank Kitson. 8. and Robert Thompson. 9 . Although these … 8 Major General Frank Kitson acquired a concrete experience of irregular warfare …
    smallwarsjournal.com

  • joeCanuck

    where on earth did they bury all the dead?

    Blair,

    Somewhere deep in fordprefect’s delusional brain. It’s so big there is plenty of room.

  • Blair

    Joe,

    So it would seem.

  • tacapall

    Just as much room as there is in Blair’s brain then Joe, if you experienced the bigotory then you’d know the crack but not as far as Canada I suppose.

  • joeCanuck

    Tacalall,

    I didnt follow Blairs ‘s posts. perhaps I will in future, But i did notice fordpfercts utterly incredulous remark and thought it worth commenting on. Blair’s point about “were all the bodies are” was a fair one.

  • Neil

    Try Wiki as your first stop Joe, I’m sure the internet has much more info if you’re prepared to search. Am shocking busy myself or I’d trawl for you…

    From Wiki:

    Of the 40,000 persons recorded as having served in the UDR from 1970–1992, 18 were later convicted of murder, 11 for manslaughter.[108] The regiment was responsible for the shooting deaths of nine people: three members of the IRA, one loyalist hijacker, two joyriders, an alleged thief, a deaf youth who could not hear the warnings shouted at him, and a man shot accidentally in a confrontation with a patrol. Between 1970 and 1990, 99 were convicted of assault, and others were convicted of armed robbery, weapons offences, bombing, intimidation and attacks on Catholics, kidnapping, and membership in the UVF. Only a small fraction of the regiment were involved in such criminal activities, but the proportion was higher than for the regular British Army or RUC.[109]

    I don’t really know your views on the behaviour of the Army and the RUC here, and no one would suggest that each and every cop (for example) was a sectarian murderer. However we do know that the cops helped loyalist murderers get away with their crimes in Tiger’s Bay, thanks to Nuala O’Loan’s investigation.

    With regards to the army you’ll know about Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy massacre, and the drip drip of information clearing army victims of any wrongdoing. You’ll have heard of multiple kids, below 10 years of age, killed by rubber bullets etc.

    My point in all this being it’s generally accepted the UDR were worse than the army or the cops, in terms of their own criminal behaviour up to and including murder. So defend them if you wish, but try to get some information behind you first. Murdering, sectarian bastards? Absofuckinglutely.

  • Neil

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.htm

    More info here, from the UK government. Expressing concern at weaponms being stolen and the high levels of support or memebrship of UVF/UDA. For example the Miami Showband massacre was carried out by a UVF gang at least two of who were members of the UDR.

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Now let us see what General Frank Kietson thought about Law should be used in Society ?
    Half of your links are broken and the rest point to entire books or papers. So how about if you quote the bits you find most offensive and I’ll point out the relevant context and qualifiers?

  • Neil

    Found this one interesting…

    Jackson recalls greeting Kitson before ushering him to see Col Wilford and leaving the two alone.

    “Though Frank Kitson was a brusque man, he knew his soldiering. He would have understood that Derek Wilford was feeling bruised, battered and worried about what had happened… “Kitson has a very distinct nasal voice, so it would have been difficult not to overhear what he was saying even if I had been trying not to.” He says Kitson began: “‘Well Derek, you’d better tell me what happened’. So I heard the Colonel describe the snatch operation across the containment line into ‘Free Derry’.

    “Kitson was generally supportive, but when Wilford had finished, he offered a trenchant comment.

    ‘What I don’t understand is why, having got that far in, you didn’t go on and sort the whole bloody mess out’.”

    Jackson adds: “Kitson expressed himself pretty brutally, but he had a point. There was no doubt that we could have gone on to retake the ‘no-go’ area, though this would almost certainly have resulted in more deaths.”

    The former Army chief tells of his own shock and “worrying feelings” when it emerged just how many people had been killed by paratroopers that Sunday. He says: “I was deeply shocked because, although the British Army had shot a number of persons in the past, there had never been deaths on this scale. To this day it remains the most tragic such episode in the whole sad history of the Troubles. I was left with some very mixed and worrying feelings…I hated the thought, as some commentators would state straight away, that our soldiers might have lost control. I found it difficult to accept that there could have been any mass breach of discipline.”

    General Jackson, who gave evidence to the Saville Inquiry, said he had ” no doubt we came under fire” but added the question remains “whether the response of some of our soldiers was proportionate or not”.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/docs/newspapers/sunday_life/gordon_sl_160907.pdf

    So Kitson was upset that more innocent civilians weren’t murdered on Blooday Sunday, so that the troops could move around Derry at will.

    And interesting that Mike Jackson seems to forget the murder of 11 civilians, including a priest, by the same unit of the British army less than 6 months earlier in his statement there had never been deaths on this scale. I suppose the extra three people murdered on Bloody Sunday moved the ‘scale’ of death up a notch.

    Maybe it’s just me but the above lie seems to underline the British tendencies to bullshit in an attempt to appear reasonable.

  • Neil

    Or this:

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/pdfs/faul.pdf

    “An excellent example concerns the way in Which the law should work. Broadly speaking there are two possible alternatives, the first one being that the law should be used as just another weapon in the government’s arsenal, and in this case it becomes little more than a propaganda cover for the disposal of unwanted members of the public. For this to happen efficiently, the activities of the legal services have to be tied into the war effort in as discreet a way as possible which, in effect, means that the member of the government responsible for law, either sits in the supreme council or takes his orders from the head of the administration. The other alternative is that the law should remain impartial and administer the laws of the country without any direction from the government”

  • Blair

    Neil,

    Thank you for confirming that only a small fraction of the UDR were involved in criminality. That flies in the face of the claims you then go on to make yourself though. Are you also a bit thick?

    Incidentally are you now blaming the entire police force for the Tigers bay UVF, and the entire army for Bloody Sunday? Is that how it works in your mind?

    As has been pointed out by others that sort of blanket labelling can be used to damn every member of the GAA. Indeed it could be used to damn every member of the building trade, or indeed any other trade which had terrorists amongst its ranks.

    Does that logic still suit your prejudices?

  • Munsterview

    andnowwhat (profile) 7 December 2010 at 10:05 p.m.

    “….sorry for the caps……..THE UDA ARE DESTROYING LIVES AND COMMUNITIES NOW!!!! AT THIS VERY MOMENT……..”

    From what I hear, I am sad to say that you are correct. This is one of the legacies of the troubles and it has not been cleared up. Neither will it be cleared up in the immediate future, the UDA still has a purpose for the ‘Powers That Be’

    First off this is one of the reasons that I am elaborating on aspects of Counter Insurgency Activities and contextualizing these inside the The Low Intensity War. Once there is an acknowledgement of that simple fact and some appreciation as to how it operated, then there can be some understanding of where things are at.

    More important it will also show why they will stay there until collect community remedial action is taken. I also appreciate that the UDR have a choke grip in many working class protestant communities and it’s a catch 22 situation. To date most aid and effort is funneled into these areas through the UDA structures or through parallel structures in which the UDA has either a significant influence or a controlling interest.

    While the UDA remains in place and a blind eye is turned by the authorities to drug wholesale supplies, drinking clubs, bootlegging, and the great unspoken, the prostitution of young women, then it is not only a matter of nothing will change, but rather that nothing can change !

    Andnowwhat : let me make it perfect clear that I am not using your post as an opportunity to put to put the boot into protestant paralimitiaries and the securicat establishment. My Limerick friends tell me that the have the very same problems there in Moyross and other estates.

    In fact Limerick probably provides the worst example in these Islands if not Europe as a whole, as to what happens when a criminal element be come de facto the local local governing authority and indeed the only authority in their own local area. Criminals move into a cul de sac, they want total control, those who they think cannot be trusted are given an offer for their property that they cannot refuse, 25% of it’s market value, if the family do not take it and go, they are burned out.

    Huge estates have been totally no go to ordinary policing for a generation. It is now down the the special units armed like the SAS to keep a drive by presence there, that is all the policing the areas get. If the parent of a teenager object to their child taking drugs, they get a visit from the local crime lord’s hench men and their alternative is to allow their child to continue using or be burned out.

    In areas of absolute poverty such as this with absolutely nothing going, then twenty five euros a day and ‘gang’ status for an alienated twelve or thirteen year old is as good as life gets. It would take an exceptionally strong willed mother doing her best for her family to refuse fifty euros to look after a drug cache, a gun, a hundred cartons of cigs or whatever.

    This is especially so if they know that the woman next door or down the estate will do it anyway and that personally they would be in the ganglands bad books for refusing. It is not just a handfuls of criminals, it quickly becomes the criminal ethos prevailing over entire communities and the values of the young people growing up in these communities.

    Even the local government are subcontracting ‘security’ to local criminals, in that they are paying over on a regular basis to local gangs to prevent the destruction of council property. Morals do not enter into the equation, Local Government officials deal pragmatically with the community power of the ground to protect and preserve Council property, the policing or gang problems are not issues for them

    Do and of this seem farmilar to you. In fact is there any of it that is not ? In these areas of Limericks, Dublin and elsewhere, the gangsters have modern automatic pistols and sub-machine guns. grenades and other war material in their arsenals that any Armed Republican Group quartermaster would give their right arm for.

    This even included recent imported modern Rocket Propelled Grenades in some of the hauls connected with the Limerick gangs earlier this year. What the F*** do these gangs have to do, drive down O’Connell St, Limerick in an imported ex-soviet Tank before somebody acts?

    Dublin and the greater Dublin area criminals can collectively put the equivalent of three army battalions on the streets, allied armed with automatic weapons.

    This is Ireland 2010 and Ireland 2011 and 12 , 13 and 14 etc. Authority do not have any answers, they are into containing and managing the manifestations of the problems, not dealing with the root cause ! Our problems are the same North and South, yours is compounded by securicat playing silly buggers and giving the UDA a free hand, but even with the UDA removed, most of the social problems up there, like Limerick down here would remain.

    There is this difference in the North : the UDA were constituted and used in a structured way as an integrated part of the Low Intensity War; the main Unionist parties know this, they have a duty and responsibility to bring these people in out of the cold. The UDA also know the part they played for the Local and Whitehall political establishments.

    The UDA have a right to feel peeved at the two faced approach of politicians like Turgon who were quite happy to ignore their violence and use their services while it was happening in the height of the troubles and targeted against Republicans.

    As I have been pointing out in the scheme of things in the Counter Insurgency activities of the Low Intensity War, they had a part, they did the State some service, they want recognition for it and in terms of what the UDA leaders considered their terms of engagement with the Spooks to be, they are entitled to that!

    However if the injured and post traumatic stress disordered veterans of the Iraqi and Afghanistan Wars that honorably served their country are thrown on the social scrap heap by the MOD, what chance have the UDA ‘veterans’ ?

    Peace for the Brits was always an absence of war! If we on this Island who are concerned about society want it to be more than this, we must make it so, no one is going to hand it to us on a plate!

  • Neil

    Thank you for confirming that only a small fraction of the UDR were involved in criminality. That flies in the face of the claims you then go on to make yourself though. Are you also a bit thick?

    Can you be more specific? For your convenience my statement is below:

    I don’t really know your views on the behaviour of the Army and the RUC here, and no one would suggest that each and every cop (for example) was a sectarian murderer. However we do know that the cops helped loyalist murderers get away with their crimes in Tiger’s Bay, thanks to Nuala O’Loan’s investigation.

    With regards to the army you’ll know about Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy massacre, and the drip drip of information clearing army victims of any wrongdoing. You’ll have heard of multiple kids, below 10 years of age, killed by rubber bullets etc.

    Perhaps you can direct me to any information there that is incorrect? Doubtful though, as it’s all actually true. Might be bit harder for you to muddy the waters, and try to avoid namecalling, it’s not nice. As you ask I’m well qualified and earn my crust as a software analyst, so no I’m not ‘a bit thick’, what about yourself?

    Incidentally are you now blaming the entire police force for the Tigers bay UVF, and the entire army for Bloody Sunday? Is that how it works in your mind?

    Did you miss my statement no one would suggest that each and every cop (for example) was a sectarian murderer? Or are you a bit thick? So no, ‘incidentally’ I’m not, as I clearly stated in my initial post. Try reading it if you can manage that meagre task, most words are three syllables or less, so one would imagine you should be able to manage it.

    As has been pointed out by others that sort of blanket labelling can be used to damn every member of the GAA. Indeed it could be used to damn every member of the building trade, or indeed any other trade which had terrorists amongst its ranks.

    Does that logic still suit your prejudices?

    It could you’re correct, and damn silly of me to think that we should hold the forces of the state, such as soldiers and police, to a higher standard than amateur footballers and builders.

    At the end of the day it’s just those damn fenians complaining about being murdered by the police and army, being interned by the same, and having groups like the UDR infiltrated by the UVF and UDA to such an extent that it actually came to concern the British government to such a degree that both organisations are now gone. Oh how I laugh.

    At any rate it’s all academic, as the British decided that due to the RUC’s & UDR’s penchant for covering for sectarian murderers, providing them with weapons and ensuring they weren’t subject to the rule of law they did away with them altogether. Thank fuck we don’t have to put up with that anymore, though I’m sure you hanker for the good old days when both organisations had 95% or greater Protestant employees and the fenians knew their place. The rest of the world’s moved on, your beloved sectarian RUC and UDR are dead now. Sorry big son.

    I’ll finish off with this: all the offensive references in this post as regards your intelligence are a reaction to you accusation. I don’t go for name calling as a rule, as that would be particularly childish and idiotic. But saying’s you’ve got the ball rolling I’ll join in. I look forward to hearing from you to tell me where I’m wrong in my initial ‘thick’ statement, though I suspect I’ll be waiting a while, as it’s all true.

  • Standing ovation Neil. You may have eciplsed Pearse Doherty lol…

  • Nunoftheabove

    Blair

    “if you can provide evidence of unionist politicians condoning murders carried out by loyalists I’ll be happy to look at it”. I didn’t assert that this was the case – if you have understood me to say that then I’d invite you to identify where I have said so or implied so or, again, to desist from presuming, pigeonholing and projecting.

    In terms of my own politics, that’s my business dude – I’m not the one presuming to know about yours and nor can I think of a decent reason for caring. Based on our exchanges to date though I do think it’s unliklely that you’d be in a position to conceal yours, even were you minded to.

  • Munsterview

    Reader, thanks for the info on links breaking down, sometimes happens with Macks and there is also the problem that I sometimes access this from other sites that are targeted and interfered with in that a second or third generation ‘cut and paste’ will break down and go dead.

    Earlier this year I had a blogg reposted on probably over a hundred sites and translated into a number of international landguages. When I tried to recopy from some of these anti-establishment sites, my computer lit up like a Christmas tree with virus warnings. There are a lot of bastards out there that do not want this information in the public domain.

    I have just checked and this link is live. If you click on this and scroll down you will get all the Kitsons files in a downloadable format. once on the sites the quoted files can be individually accessed.

    http://www.2dix.com/pdf-2010/frank-kitson-pdf.php

    However I see that Neil in his post of 2.08pm have zeroed in on the passage you queried. As to going into this and debating the issues at any great length, I am as likely to persuade you or the average Unionist reader to opposing these people and all their works and prompts as Big Ian is likely to convert and die a Catholic!

    I am content to put the information out there end empower people as Thomas Davis intended in his extortion ‘Educate that you may be Free’! These days I am content to merely assist in that process !

    Dealing with these people in their totality and various manifestations have been a reality for my extended family since the mid 1500’s and even earlier. We had an IRB MP in the late 19th century and see things from their power structures out as well as from the outside in. Our Family and O Sullivan Bearas were the only two refused general pardons after the Elizabethan Wars and with good reason.

    The fight goes on. At least these days I can do it with a keyboard and post, I do not have to lay on the side of a mountain pass in this weather waiting to take down a Brits Official and his escort. Is that progress or what ? Methods may have changed but not the mentality.

  • NWM

    There is blatant hypocrisy amongst the pan nationalist front when it comes to Loyalist paramilitaries. They greet calls for politicians to engages with Loyalist working calls with the same old cat calls of they murdered this one or blew up that one while at the same time rush out to vote for the IRAs political wing SF. They need to acknowledge that their violence was no better or more justified than that of Loyalists and that if we are to build a truly equal NI we need to realise that everyone has a place at the table.
    For those who have lost relatives at the hands of Loyalists, they would do well to remember than many of us have lost friends and relatives at the hands of SF/IRA and find their involvement in politics just as unpalatable but it is part of moving our society on!

  • Reader

    Neil (Quoting Kitson): Broadly speaking there are two possible alternatives
    Don’t keep us in suspense. Which one did Kitson advocate? Faul truncated the quote before it reached a conclusion.

  • Reader

    Munsterview: As I have been pointing out in the scheme of things in the Counter Insurgency activities of the Low Intensity War, they [the UDA] had a part,
    You have been claiming it, but, as I pointed out, they don’t fit the template. They don’t fit the counter-gang / pseudo-gang technique, and they don’t fit any technique that Kitson ever advocated.

  • Reader

    Neil (Quoting Father Denis Faul, quoting the Sunday Press, quoting Kitson): Broadly speaking there are two possible alternatives
    How strange! The quote is from Low Intensity Operations, via the newspaper. So I can happily report: “As a rule the second is not only morally right but expedient, because it is more compatible with the government’s aim of maintaining the allegiance of the population”. The legal structures that the Government put in place confirms that they agreed with Kitson’s conclusion.

  • Reader

    Reader: So Kitson was upset that more innocent civilians weren’t murdered on Blooday Sunday, so that the troops could move around Derry at will.
    Both the IRA and the Loyalists operated freely out of no-go areas for another 6 months, during which a couple of hundred people died. Kitson’s suggestion would probably have *saved* lives. Especially since there was little loss of life when the Army actually did break into the no-go areas. Unless you count Claudy.

  • Nuance

    I agree that it’s farcical for anyone to be claiming recognition for the UDA as a whole, or indeed the loyalist paramilitaries as a whole.

    However, this is sloppy journalism at best. McDonald and others with him ask for some recognition of the role that former combatants played in bringing about peace. That’s not the same as denying they contributed to the war, but it is to have the integrity and honesty to recognise that without many leading former combatants on all sides, the mainstream political parties (who were busy blowing a gale and doing everything possible to shoot the agreement down) would have us still in conflict.

    That’s just a fact.

    Another fact is that there are *some* who were key members within the loyalist paramilitaries who do absolutely essential work in quelling interface violence, something that it’s rare to see our MLAs engaging with. I’ve certainly yet to see evidence that the filibustering TUV get their hands dirty on that score.

    As ever, the picture is complex. Recognising the work of some does not overlook the fact that others are involved in criminality up to their neck.

    McDonald’s comments were unfortunate, but this headline is vitriolic nonsense, as usual. Nowhere does McDonald ‘demand’, and not a single quote points to his asking for recognition for every loyalist paramilitary out there.

    It’s about time, Turgon, that you found some way of recognising the shades of grey in the world. Either that or for god’s sake Slugger, give me an ‘ignore posting’ option, because I’m sick of this broken record.

    And while we’re in the business of creating shades of grey, let’s correct two facts Turgon. The ‘Yabba dabba do, any taig will do’ brand of loyalism was that championed by Johnny Adair. McDonald, for all his faults, was the man who threw Adair and his cronies out of the organisation. Secondly, the UPRG, albeit through independent councilors, are making electoral plans.

    And for the record no, I’m not a loyalist, nor a loyalist sympathiser.

  • Munsterview

    Nuance : “…….As ever, the picture is complex. Recognizing the work of some does not overlook the fact that others are involved in criminality up to their neck……..”

    Regretfully a rather long post coming, but as among other things, it sets out the future rules of engagement with Turgon and his kind and contextualizes the situation from a Republican viewpoint as well as hopefully the focus of Republican responses, I hope that some of the more serious Unionist readers and commentators will bear with me !

    The UDA did not arise in a vacuum, they were an essential part of the Counter Insurgency Program operated by Crown Forces within the parameters of Low Intensity Warfare.

    This was the first all encompassing war fought by a Nato force in a Home region, urban environment that ticked off many of George Orwell’s ‘Big Brother’ boxes, in that it started with the IRA using Thomson guns, Second WW Lee Enfields and in one instance a Lewis WW1, gun captured in Mallow Barracks in the war of Independence. (RIP Liam)

    This war quickly evolved into the electronic era and ended with most of the war effort by the Brits channelled into electronic warfare. Yes the Brits had some notable successes in this regard against Republicans, overall advantage is almost always with State Forces in these events, but it was not all one way.

    The Malone Rd. IRA Intel intercept operation that gave Republicans access to the information that the British Army Northern Irish Command was receiving from their own British Army GHQ in ‘The Mainland’ was as fine an Intel intercept as anything that Mick Collins pulled off in his day.

    Where is the full story of that ; I do not for example see Liam Clarke who has good contacts with some Republican sources as well as his excellent, top level British Army, British Intelligence, British Establishment and British Government sources, in any great rush to explore this fascinating story.

    The facts are that Liam could not do such a story even if he wanted to : State security matters are concerned; once he started on such a story his paper would receive that infamous British Government D notice or whatever that would also include a notice making it an offense to disclose that such a notice had been issued in the first place !

    This is the much vaunted British Democracy and value system that Turgon wants to preserve and keep part of Ireland politically attached to at all costs. In effect it means that there cannot be any full and factual examination of the State Counter Insurgency activities carried out in the Low Intensity War. Because of this the UDA can be presented in whatever light the current Securicats want.

    The UDA have served their purpose and history has moved on. They are the same embarrassment to the British State as the native Algerians who fulfilled the same function for the French in Algeria, these were brought to France, placed in an old seafront French Army Camp and they, their children, their grand children and great grandchildren etc have been left to bake in the sun forgotten by both countries.

    Our President Mary Mcaleese as a young person at the start of the troubles personally experienced her families business burned out by Loyalist paramilitaries. She was left homeless and her family for a while scattered among relatives.

    Our Presidents and her family have a far more bloody, brutal and immediate experience of Loyalist terrorism involving her brother, the event is well known and I will defer to her wishes not to dwell on these things for the sake of peace and a new future.

    Personally she has every reason to be embittered, yet her attitude Christian forgiveness and tolerance to former loyalists activist, stands in stark contrast to to that of Turgons and his kind towards Republicans, be they former paramilitaries or otherwise.

    In her Office as President of the Irish Republic and more important, also from her Christian Conviction, Mary opened the doors of the Presidential Residence to the UDA top level people and to the ordinary people of the Shankill Road who were alienated from ‘respectable’ Unionist politics. Her husband Martin used his social connections to introduce some of these people to significant Southern figures in the financial world who put their hands in their pockets for social projects in the UDA areas.

    The UDA and the constituency that they represent have a simple choice, they can join with the rest of us in building a New inclusive Ireland on this Island for all, where they will be met with the same generosity as Mary McAliese, her husband and their Southern social contacts have shown, or they can take their chances with the likes of Turgan that were happy enough to turn a blind eye to their activities while they were part of the Counter Insurgency operation of the Low Intensity War as it happened and who now seek to disown them one and all !

    Turgons stance is of course completely understandable : to acknowledge the UDA and their activities is to expose the dirty underbelly of this Counter Insurgency War, the part it played in the Low Intensity War and in so doing create a public domain situation where the methodologies and indeed very purpose of this War is open to public scrutiny.

    The ‘Old Admiral’ is far too wily and practiced a polemic propagandists to sail into that one!

    Like ‘nuance’ I also can say……. ‘And for the record no, I’m not a loyalist, nor a loyalist sympathizer’!

    However I also know where these people came from, how their fears and sympathies were exploited and why they now find themselves where they are, thrown on the scrap-heap of history now that they have served their British Establishment Masters purpose.

    It may indeed be ironic that a Republican should make a case for the UDA but only to those who do not know what Irish Republicanism is !

    There are and always will be forces and special interests in this Island and across the water that want to prevent joined up thinking happening. Computer keyboards and sites such as slugger are as much a part of that continuing battle as IRA / SAS south Armagh battles were. This was evident in the determined effort by the covert ‘Clever Clogs’ Intel pseudo poster unmasked here to ridicule me and posters like me to run us off the site before we could open up things like the foregoing.

    Turgon in more elegant overt posts tried exactly the same discredit processing but unlike the ‘maskey’ creation, he is out in the open and have to be more restrained in his attacks to preserve his credibility, or at lease such of it as remains behind a facade of ‘reasonableness and civility’.

    The days that Turgon can dangle a skeleton of a disappeared tragedy to refocus minds back to worst times of the Troubles and attempt to keep them there in that divisive past, without also examine the full context within which those dark days were made happen, are long passed !

    ‘Neil’, ‘Jean’ and others of the next generation of Republicans are proving themselves well capable of expounding Republican concepts. Pat Sheehan, the former Hunger Striker that is about to step into the West Belfast breech did not pluck his Honors politics and philosophy degrees from under a Long Kesh Christmas tree ! Neither is he the only Republican in Northern politics with more than degree or two to their name.

    Turgon and his kind have not still adjusted to the fact that third level qualifications in some Republican and Nationalist circles are now common place. In dealing with Northern Nationalists, they are also dealing with significant numbers of third level, educated young people who have far wider horizons than the ‘Dreary Steeples’ etc that wearied Churchill, they are European in outlook. Ulster or Six Counties of it, may be Turgons narrow focus, they have European and world wide perspectives. .

    If Turgon demands the truth then By God he will get it, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

    I and others will go wherever he wants to down that road with him but only within the totality of the Low Intensity War reality that was and indeed still is, if albeit in a scaled back version ! I am not surprised that Turgon expends so much time and effort in attacking Republicans on this site. Well he tried the ballot box and he know where that got him !

    Turgon represents ‘Fur Coat Unionism that is now as archaic as his sailing metaphors. He gives every impression as having more in common and indeed better suited for the world of ‘Master and Commander’ than he is for the one of Robinson and Mcguiness !

    For goodness sake the wife of the First Minister had an affair with a toy boy and her husband is not alone still in politics but he is also leader of his party and Regional Parliament Prime Minister. How much more proof do Turgon need that his ‘ Protestant Ulster’ is now as surely gone as the Gaelic Ulster went with the flight of the Earls.

    To quote from the poem ‘The Music Makers’ “Each Age is an Age that is dying, or one that is coming to birth” In the words of Stiner “He who would create a New World must be able to endure the passage or the Old with tranquility” These days, like most of the ‘Old Guard’ I am Budda like in my serenity!

    It is indeed a measure of how far we have come on this side of the divide that the average young educated Irish Republican or Nationalist is far more likely to react to Turgon with amusement than anger. They know he is the past and that they are the future !

    Good for us but a sad pass for the intellectual arguments or philosophy of Unionism when Turgon is the best that they can muster here.

  • JJ Malloy

    (Reader: So Kitson was upset that more innocent civilians weren’t murdered on Blooday Sunday, so that the troops could move around Derry at will.
    Both the IRA and the Loyalists operated freely out of no-go areas for another 6 months, during which a couple of hundred people died. Kitson’s suggestion would probably have *saved* lives. Especially since there was little loss of life when the Army actually did break into the no-go areas. Unless you count Claudy.)

    Who knows what would have happened if the Army went in. In the short run dozens of more deaths of innocents. It could have led to even more of a recruitment bonanza for the PIRA and even more international outrage.

    It was better for them to let the Provo’s discredit themselves enough, thus changing the political dynamic and allowing the Brits to go in.

  • JJ Malloy

    MV

    As valuable as other components were in their defeat the Provos, one cannot deny that their main asset (besides the support of the majority of 6 county residents) was their shocking infiltration of the PIRA structure.

    The fight was unequal and impossible from the beginning….which is just one reason why much of the violence was especially immoral. Bringing down Stormont was one thing (a just goal with widespread support), but forcing the Brits out was another altogether.

  • Blair

    Neil,

    Perhaps you could explain this statement from yourself which is sharply contradicted by the evidence that you provided?

    “My point in all this being it’s generally accepted the UDR were worse than the army or the cops, in terms of their own criminal behaviour up to and including murder. So defend them if you wish, but try to get some information behind you first. Murdering, sectarian bastards? Absofuckinglutely.”

    Your evidence suggests that only a very tiny percentage of them were ‘murdering sectarian bastards’. Why then do you label them all as such?

    Neither the RUC nor the UDR were done away with. It’s nice that you have that perception though.

  • Blair

    “Blair

    “if you can provide evidence of unionist politicians condoning murders carried out by loyalists I’ll be happy to look at it”. I didn’t assert that this was the case – if you have understood me to say that then I’d invite you to identify where I have said so or implied so or, again, to desist from presuming, pigeonholing and projecting. ”

    Nun,

    Then we are in absolute agreement. Unionist politicians did not in any way condone loyalist violence.

    “In terms of my own politics, that’s my business dude – I’m not the one presuming to know about yours and nor can I think of a decent reason for caring. Based on our exchanges to date though I do think it’s unliklely that you’d be in a position to conceal yours, even were you minded to.”

    So you don’t presume to know my politics, but don’t think that they are concealed. Does that make sense in your mind?

  • Munsterview

    JJ : “……The fight was unequal and impossible from the beginning….which is just one reason why much of the violence was especially immoral. Bringing down Stormount was one thing (a just goal with widespread support), but forcing the Brits out was another altogether……..”

    JJ, I have two hats here, one is a historian sitting around a table with other historians, I have often been able to give an insight that totally changed the context of a discussion. In that reagard I do not mind contributing in the broad strokes.

    Wearing the other hat I am a player, a Republican committed to a United Ireland. In this context the struggle is on going, it the current phase, mainstream Republicans are pursuing their goals by peacefull political means only. That approach has only merit while it is delivering the goods.

    As somebody in the Republican Movement prior to the Sticks / Prove split, I can honestly tell you that nobody see that split coming up to the weeks before it happened and even when it did many Republicans worked feverishly behind the scenes to bring both sides back together. Adams and Co, despite what is now said worked equally determined for two years, to avoid a split in 86.

    There is no garauntee that the current political framework is the final phase for mainstream Rebublicans, the Unionist pro existing agreement could change or other events could happen to caterpult what are now fringe Republicans center stage.

    In other words the struggle is ongoing and therefore the time is not yet right to throw all the cards face up on the table. What decisions were taken, by who and why are part of that living struggle. In the Republic Mindset some things are openly discussed and others are not.

    Just as we have learned and are still learning from Frank Kitson and other Countrer Insurgency gurus, so these boyos are also learning from us at every oppertunity and thinking Republicans are not in the business of providing the enemy too many of those.

    Unfortunately then in the absence of insider knowledge of strategeties and tactics of both main protaganists, most aspects and events of the struggle will not make sense or appear to have coherence to outsiders.

    Recently on another thread you referred to the greats of old like Tom Barry and Sean McBride. Up to the end of their lifes Old Republicans talked about certain things from their activist days only to young Republican activists of my generation, that is how the Fenian Tradition is passed on, a shared reality but only for those living it. It do not make the job of the Historian any easier but the needs of the active Republican Movement come first.

  • Blair

    Munster,

    Ah, so there is indeed a cunning plan. All will be revealed in due course.

    LOL

  • Nuance

    Munsterview,

    I don’t entirely agree with your analysis, nor the republican analysis more generally. I think the greatest flaw in that analysis is to dismiss the autonomy of loyalist groups by linking them arm in arm to the state through an emphasis on issues like collusion.

    Without opening another can of worms, collusion is a complex, murky and convoluted area. The reality of that it seems, to someone from outside Northern Ireland who has looked hard into it, is more about individual loyalties and incompetencies than any large-scale state-led collusion with the loyalist paramilitaries. But I digress…

    Loyalists are more autonomous than the republican narrative gives them credit for, and were as problematic to the British Army as Republicans, particularly when they proved so spectacularly unsuccessful at taking out IRA members. They also have their own reasons for rejecting a united Ireland – at the moment the economy being an entirely viable one that can hardly be eclipsd with Mary McAleese’s ‘warm’ stance towards them. I respect and admire that, but no loyalist whose grown up in the relatively deprived estates of Protestant working-class Belfast is about to be succoured by the arm of forgiveness; though McAleese has shown an important lead.

    Otherwise, I completely agree with your post. I’ve argued with Sinners that persuasion might, ironically, be best to start with the loyalist community because their socio-economic condition demands a progressive politics that Unionism has never espoused. I personally condemn violence, but I equally condemn those who cannot find room in their world for redemption, nor the integrity and strength to look at the structures which they sustain which create, exacerbate and legitimise violence among large groups of people.

    No-one here has argued the UDA are all good, but frankly the clamour to condemn everything that looks or walks like a loyalist paramilitary to me smacks of intense but repressed guilt. After giving it a lot of thought, it’s the only way I can explain the continuing vitriol.

  • Munsterview

    Blair : Grown ups discussion here, run along and play, now there is a good little chap!

  • Munsterview

    Nuance :

    I am not for a moment suggesting that each and every aspect of Loyalist violence was under control of agents of the State no more than the Killing of Senator Billy Fox was a planned, authorized event.

    What I am claiming however is the Counter Insurgency operations and the Low Intensity Operations as Frank Kitson advocated, encompassed every facet of Northern Irish society that could be harnessed for that end. The players on the ground or casual observer may have one view of events, the unseen string pullers the other. Anyone pursuing an agenda inside a group can best achieve their methods by concealing their agenda and influencing events as an ‘ordinary member’

    As I pointed out in another post to JJ given that they could be over a dozen layers of command between the Minister that had theoretical charge and the agents on the ground handling an overt pro group or a covert contra group, uncontrolled events had to be a regular feature of operations.

    This do not mean however that there was not a grand plan but in the absence of a mass document disclosure such as we have seen the Yanks suffer, this may never come to light. If it did, I personally have no doubt that very little would have been seen to have been left to chance. Those who played a willing knowledgable part in this grand plan have generally kept the faith with their own mindsets back then as we have with ours and not talked.

    The others involved did not know they were players or that they were being played, but that did not make them any less of an all encompassing British State Low Intensity War effort.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Nuance

    “…smacks of intense but repressed guilt” – it does ?! Want to develop that theory for us ?

  • RepublicanStones

    MV you mentioned the Yanks….

    http://tinyurl.com/37mcgpm

  • Munsterview

    Rep.S

    Yep, had that one in my files.

    I have the privilege of knowing Bob for many a long year and occasionally share a few hours with him when he is in Ireland. I also know through cultural activity some senior members of the Irish Defense Forces that served in Peace Keeping forces out there.

    ‘ Insiders’ like Bob and these Officers were predicting more or less a main Iraqi invasion and a destabilasion of the country long before any of this happened or the whole ‘9 / 11 scenario’ was concocted. Most Middle Eastern Governments such as Syria and Iran considered the late Sadam to be an American asset.

    Ian Crane currently on tour in Ireland with Jim Corr and a NWO awareness series of public meetings was employed by BP at that period, I heard him say at his talk in Limerick University during the week that US special forces blew up the oil-wells there and not the Iraqis. I had a long chat with Jim and himself afterwards. http://www.ianrcrane.co.uk/

    Jim and his family have International artistic reputations and have sold 35 million records world wide. Some years ago the contradictions in the whole 9 /11 scenario caught his attention and he crossed the line from observer to player by opening up his own site on that and related matters. http://www.jimcorr.com/

    He is some individual : he could go to any of dozens of concert venues in Europe and get a generous share of the thousands of high priced tickets sales, yet here he was talking to a few dozen third level students who paid € 6 to hear him. In terms of reputation and time Jim, in the elegant words of Joyce Kimler, ‘ Carries in his soul the courage of his song’.

    As of this Spring 2010. over 1,200 US, Architects and Engineers are calling for a new investigation into the events of 9 /11. These building professional academics are motivated by the fact that the 9/11 commission report has been proven erroneous on on multiple accounts etc. ( Nexus Vol 18, no.1. Dec2010,-Jan.2011, p17 http://www.nexusmagazine.com/ )

    This had a direct bearing in the GFA, had British Troops not been needed for NWO adventureism in the Mid and Far East then another scenario would have developed and this would have included a large scale British Army presence on the streets of the Six Counties and a continuation to more British Army Counter Insurgency operations as part of Low Intensity War that would have been maintained ratcheted up several levels from the current level.

    It was not so much of a case of hope and history rhymed as US and British needs timed!

    The Global village is a reality : when I have problems with my internet connection, my help line contact is with an office located in Bombay. We have seen how finances are Internationalized and tans country borders yet most people will not make the final logical conclusion that where there are there are these global transnational financial concerns, any one of which have more resources than 20 to 30 average average country budgets.

    430 major International banks are now in fact calling for a One World Currency : this would be under Anglo / US leadership. Recently Russia hosted discussions about setting up an alternative reserve currency to the almighty dollar! Obama send an uninvited US delegation to the conference….. they were refused admittance !

    A new World Currency of Russia, China, some of South America and twenty other major players to date. If it comes off then the dollar will collapse to its true value, which will make the Irish situation like a ‘teddy bears picnic’ and sterling will also be seriously effected. The Euro is in a better position as it would be at least double the value of the dollar.

    Henry Makow hosts a fairly broad range of bloggers, if you call up the site http://www.henrymakow.com/archives.html and go to articles, on the left hand, red background narrow column you will find some interesting articles listed. See Ireland… the fight back has started ( under main articles) and G20 a dry run and G20…sue the bastards if you have not already seen them elsewhere !

    Henry is of European Jewish ancestry and he lost close relatives in the concentration camps. However he is also very much opposed to the anti-Palestinian and other activities of the Israeli State. Since he is a Jew and cannot be termed ‘anti-semitic’ then to certain posters on slugger, Henry is what they term ‘a self-hating jew’ . I do not agree with all the politics of the site but I do agree with many of the themes explored and especially his efforts to expose the New World Order activities which is why I blog for him occasionally.

    Good Reading, keep up the research. The old injunction applies, be alert…the country needs lerts !

  • Munsterview

    Lest We Forget !

    I have continually made the point in slugger that many inexplicable and apparently random events had a coherent genesis in Counter Insurgence, Low Intensity War operations fought in Northern Ireland. It is often much easier to see these events more objectively when they also happened elsewhere.

    The British Government Malaysian Counter Insurgency operation is one that can provide many insights into what really happened in Northern Ireland during the conflict here.

    My thanks to Turgon for providing a suitable thread context to explore these issues !

    Abstract…………

    Chong Koon Ying was only nine years old when British soldiers came to the rubber plantation and killed her father.

    Today, on her first visit to the scene in decades, the stream helps her work out where the rows of trees used to be, where the family lived and where 24 men were shot dead on 11 and 12 December 1948. “This is the place my mother came to identify the bodies,” she said.

    * Since her father and the other Chinese migrant workers were killed,
    the British government has ignored calls for an inquiry, and this month the latest petition has again been refused.*

    It was late afternoon when the platoon of Scots Guards arrived in Batang Kali, now just an hour’s drive from Kuala Lumpur, but then deep in the jungle and an area thought to be a Communist stronghold.

    “They separated the men from the women,” she remembered, picking over some big stones which were all that remained of the house on stilts where they lived.

    The Malaya Emergency was only six months old and the troops had come expecting trouble.
    A guerrilla force which Britain had used to help defeat the Japanese in World War Two had turned on them, and Communist insurgents were attacking the rubber and tin producers who generated the colonial power’s biggest source of foreign income.

    The men and the women were interrogated, asked where the insurgents were and accused of giving them food. One of the men was shot dead that evening.

    “A woman was crying and the soldiers said if she didn’t stop they would shoot her,” Ms Chong remembered. She tried to keep her younger brother and sister quiet.
    They spent all night in one big room with no food or water and the next day they were forced onto the back of a truck.

    She then acted out the gunfire they heard – “boom, boom, boom” – pointing to the five different areas the men were taken and shot.
    As the truck pulled away they saw the houses burning with everything they owned inside.
    ‘Stigma’

    Ms Chong broke down as she remembered what happened. ( read on)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11951155

  • RepublicanStones

    Very interesting MV.
    You mention the possible sidling of the US $, which was one of the major reason why Mesopotamia got shock and awe. it was apparently neglected by the major US news outlets, but Saddam signed his own P45 back in 2000 when he had the nerve to decide to switch his oil sales to the Euro. Obviously Uncle Sam couldn’t allow that to happen, especially if the rest of OPEC were going to follow suit. So in they went, and whats one of the first things the stars and stripes did upon arrival in Baghdad? You guessed it – switch Iraq’s oil sales back to the $ standard. Phewwwww…crisis averted !

  • RepublicanStones

    You mention the possible sidelining*

  • Munsterview

    RepublicanS,

    Project Censored 2010. Sonoma State University.

    Every year for some years now Sonoma State University compile a short list of stories officially ignored, neglected or censored by mainstream media. The attempts of sideline the Dollar was story no 1 of 2010. You can find it at http://www.projectcencored.org

    Last July a United Nations Report of 176 pages, ‘ World Economic and Social Survey 2010’ can be found and downloaded from the UN website. on the UN Economic and Social Council section. That also advocated the IMF drop the dollar as a reserve currency.

    Media source and another site well worth adding to to your list BlackListedNews.com
    Try October 11th. Do not forget the Irish site of jimcorr.com Quite a bit there, you may find some helpfull information specific to Ireland. Jim is currently touring with Ian Crane Iancrane.com Ian worked with BP during the First Gulf War and has seen quite a bit of ‘the other side ‘ by direct experience before he too became a full time opponent of the NWO.

    One more thing : RS the old motto applies; ‘If you do not know learn, if you know, teach’ ! Please pass on some of these insight you find interesting to the rest of the sluggerites.

  • Munsterview

    RepublicanS,

    the Arse H’s are screwing around again, I forgot to check the link before posting as some of these linkages are piggybacked to create cul de sacs. This is the correct one and I have just checked, it works.

    http://projectcensored.org/

    If you do not already know there is a constant battle of wills regarding this info and intel between the sites and those of us who want it out there and those who try to suppress it. The Brits are not the only people who do dirty tricks you know !

  • Munsterview

    For others who may be interested this is the ten top of the US censored story list !

    Top Censored Stories of 2011

    http://projectcensored.org/

    1. Global Plans to Replace the Dollar

    2. US Department of Defense is the Worst Polluter on the Planet

    3. Internet Privacy and Personal Access at Risk

    4. ICE Operates Secret Detention and Courts

    5. Blackwater (Xe): The Secret US War in Pakistan

    6. Health Care Restrictions Cost Thousands of Lives in US

    7. External Capitalist Forces Wreak Havoc in Africa

    8. Massacre in Peruvian Amazon over US Free Trade Agreement

    9. Human Rights Abuses Continue in Palestine

    10. US Funds and Supports the Taliban