Does Glenn Beck really have blood on his hands?

Here’s a question for you: In continuing to employ Glenn Beck, does Fox News really have blood on its hands?

Beck peppers his ‘libertarian’ populist screeds with conspiracy theories, and in one recent case, a nutcase – claiming to be inspired by him – is targeting liberals for assassination. Many of his followers are plainly deluded, and he doesn’t seem to apply any standard of evidence gathering to his journalism. Depressingly, it appears that followers of pundits such as Beck tend to become more confirmed in their views the more the evidence stacks up against them.

His political appeal appears to be based upon the spreading of stories that his employers must know to be untrue. Is Beck shouting fire in a crowded theatre? Should the media companies that promote this kind of journalism be held accountable in any way? And should the European* standards of TV regulations that safeguard us from media owners with an explicit political agenda be watered down in any way?

(*Not including Italy, obviously).

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  • Pete Baker

    “should the European* standards of TV regulations that safeguard us from media owners with an explicit political agenda be watered down in any way?”

    Reads like a conclusion in search of an argument, Paul.

    But are we?

    Safeguarded against “an explicit political agenda”, that is?

    Could have fooled me…

  • John East Belfast

    Paul

    I dont think it is the media that is the problem but the fact that there is viewing public that I dont think would/could exist in the required large numbers this side of the Atlantic.

    I have occasion to vist the US a few times per annum and always check out Fox to see what is going on. Basically there are presenters there like Beck who make you giggle if not Laugh Out Loud at their nomsense and make me appreciate the BBC.

    They simply wouldnt get away with it here because our viewing public do not appear to offer that kind of fertile gullible market.

    Although I have often thought if you were looking at it from a purely business point of view and were looking for an original TV programme then you could probably surprise yourself and find a winner by trying to tap into this market

  • pippakin

    Glenn Beck appeals to a very specific audience in America. Like most good propagandists he mixes interesting but overlooked or neglected facts with his more outlandish statements.

    I’m not sure such a man would not find a market here, but it would be relatively few, there not being so many bible bilious fanatics this side of the Atlantic.

    Not forgetting his amazing ability to burst into tears, completely non disfiguring tears at that, for no apparent reason.

    He can be watched, if you really want to, nightly on Fox News on Sky.

  • Jane Jeffers

    “They simply wouldnt get away with it here because our viewing public do not appear to offer that kind of fertile gullible market.”

    Wait 3 – 5 years

    actually no need.
    Richard Littlejohn, melanie Philips et al. We already have the makings.

  • Alias

    “And should the European* standards of TV regulations that safeguard us from media owners with an explicit political agenda be watered down in any way?”

    Fox is owned by Murdoch who also owns a large chunk of the British and other ‘European’ media, so I’m not sure how you think you were ‘safeguarded’ from owners such as Murdoch.

    Most of the US media climbed up Obama’s backside during the election two years ago, and most of them are now covered in what naturally comes out of there rather than the glorious sunshine they predicted would shine out of it. Fox is the only US network that didn’t promote the liberal-left hysteria that disgraced the other networks, and Obama duly snubbed it, refusing to give interviews to it.

    Fox now has the luxury of being provan right about Obama and the other media and liberal ilk proved wrong. Naturally, they don’t like it and particularly don’t like it when the Democrats are about to take a hammering due in no small measure to the American public cottoning-on to the fact that the liberal-left media sold them a pup.

  • Alias

    “They simply wouldnt get away with it here because our viewing public do not appear to offer that kind of fertile gullible market.”

    Of course they wouldn’t. British people would never believe weapons of mass destruction were pointed at them and within 20 minutes reach, so they could never be hoodwinked into supporting an illegal war on the basis of nonsensical claims and the doctrine of pre-emptive self-defence.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    The headline “Does (sic) Glenn Beck Really Have Blood on his Hands” should of course read “Will Glenn Beck…..”
    Much as I dislike Glenn Beck, there is no evidence yet that someone HAS actually said “I wish Id never heard of that man Beck” after being charged with a crime.

    To pose the quetion in the present tense is not correct. At the moment that headline is slightly over the top but understandable.
    Yet as has been observed above .we are already on our way to this point…..both in terms of whats happening “here” and the Fux hatred scale having been notched depressingly upwards this week.

    Two things from TV this week. Jon Snow on Channel 4 carrying on a verbal joust with Kelvin McKenzie about de-regulation. McKenzie taking a sideswipe at the “vested interests” of BBC, ITN, Channel 4 stated that de-regulation would not make Sky News into a version of Fux News……before mischievously adding that he would actually like this to happen.
    And I think it was Thursday when an American friend sent me a link to an American show called “The View” (semingly a more serious version of the lunchtime womens show “Loose Women”)….where Fux News Bill O’Reilly caused two presenters to walk out because he said “Muslims killed us” in reference to the 9/11 attack and the proposed building of a mosque nearby. (I should point out I did not watch the clip…its depressing to even think about it)……of course a depressing aspect of this is that a walk out was almost certain…..thus giving O’Reilly his martyrdom.

    Actually O’Reillys foray into the Mainstream” is ironic. Fux reguarly denounces the mainstream media….as an elite liberal biased conspiracy. This is fundamental to Becks rantings.
    And yet McKenzie is an ever present on TV here. Not just predictably reviewing the papers on Sky News……but he will show up on light entertainment shows such as Have I Got News For You, 8 Out of 10 Cats and Would I Lie To You.
    Now we can argue about whether a view like McKenzie should be given so much air time. But what is undeniable is that his views would have been marginalised off TV a decade ago.

    There has always been “why oh why oh why” journalism. John Junor in the Sunday Express did it. Derek Jameson “Do They Mean Us”, Richard Littlejohn “You Couldnt Make It Up” but the genre has moved depressingly towards the gutter with the likes of Jon Gaunt, John Whale and Nick Ferrari, a consequence of fragmentation of the media and possibly society itself.
    There are low level exponents …..the late Gerry Ryan and our own Stephen Nolan …….masters of leading out the man in the street ……”white van man” to be celebrated and/or ridiculed at the whim of the presenter.
    As long as theres political correctness (ie good manners) to go “maaaaaad” and ‘elf and safety and migration, there will be such presenters.

    Fux News……which I hate has produced O’Reilly, Beck, Hannity, Coulter, Cavuto…..a depressing roster of “rent a mouth” presenters on the fringe of human tragedy. And with scant regard for evidence…indeed the Network damaged Milt Romneys chances by highlighting his Mormon background ……….in fact Romney had only one wife ever……while Huckabee and McCain were divorcees.

    and Im afraid it is only a matter of time before someone actually kills someone and cites one of the above as an inspiration. They have already produced a new political movement……which will push the Republican Party to the right. And thats depressing too.

    Much as I dislike the smugness of mainstream journalism, I am actually a fully paid up member of the liberal elite. And the cosy relationship between Politician and Journalist is actually a safeguard against populist lunacy.
    But the most depressing thought is that the mainstream media gets it in the neck from both the “new” media AND from the Far Right (for very different reasons).

    There a bigger picture here.
    Whether thru multi TV channels, de-regulation or the blogosphere we are on a journey to a destination which we dont yet know.
    I love a mystery tour as much as the next old geezer but blindfolding the driver is a bad way to go on a mystery tour.

  • Pete,

    There are two issues here. The first one concerns the future of regulat-able TV – does it have one? (A: No-one really knows beyond the medium term)

    The second one is the degree of protection that we have. BSkyB whine quite a lot about how the BBC makes the development of a broadcasting market impossible. It bothers me a lot less than it bothers them, and one of the by-products is that we don’t have powerful privatised broadcasters getting large slices of viewing figures (whatever else BSkyB get commercially from ‘premium’ TV). So yes – we are safeguarded from the kind of concerted political weather-making that Fox are capable of in the US. It’s not perfect here, but surely it’s better?——–

  • USA

    Glenn Beck and his fellow right wing fanatics represent all that is wrong with the US. They are dangerous propagandists and loud mouthed arrogant assholes.

  • eeZbub

    ‘There’s no harder thing than to have your child outlived by Glenn Beck……’

    http://tinyurl.com/y9cqnxk

  • slappymcgroundout

    “indeed the Network damaged Milt Romneys chances by highlighting his Mormon background ……….in fact Romney had only one wife ever……while Huckabee and McCain were divorcees.”

    No one cared about any wives. The concern was and is, if you think Joseph Smith had something to do with divine revelation, then we simply cannot trust your powers of judgment.

    “And the cosy relationship between Politician and Journalist is actually a safeguard against populist lunacy.”

    Please see Alias re your “liberal” friends selling the inmates in the asylum a bill of goods. For how far their heads are up his rear end, simply recall the one justification for stimulus. Shovel ready projects. Now Google yourself silly re Obama’s latest statement (this past week or so) re no shovel ready projects. I’m wondering why some waited for the messiah to speak the bad news, when presumably the same could have been stated as such at the time the shovel ready statement was first made, i.e., you just don’t go grab a shovel and dig. There has to be an analysis of need, then a plan, then an environmental impact assessment, etc., and so it wasn’t going to get off the ground for years. And so, nearly two years later, not any of the up his rear end journos, but Obama himself, finally went on record and said, gee, there really aren’t shovel ready jobs. And so kudos to your “liberal” media friends for not “speaking truth to power” two years ago when the messiah went anywhere and everywhere with “shovel ready jobs” dripping off his lips.

  • Alias

    Mr Evans likes the BBC because it is awash with Labour supporters who use it as a propaganda tool to promote their own value system. Labour, of course, also used it to promote its own propaganda in support of the Iraq war. So that is the contribution that Labour has made. If it was awash with Tories, then he wouldn’t like it as much. In fact, he’d be calling for it to be privatised, figuring that regulation could be used to control its propaganda with Ofcom then able to revoke its licence as it can onlt do with non-state broadcasters. Unlike British newspapers, British broadcasters cannot editorialise on political, socially controversial, religious or any matters that relate to current public policy, and they are also heavily censored by the state in the reporting of matters that are likely to lead to crime or public disorder. And of course, if the BBC ever does disobey the state, then the state even has a law allowing it to send in the troops in exceptional circumstances!

  • JAH

    Funny how most people in the UK in particular readers of the right wing press back the BBC.

  • JAH

    But put Beck in perspective.His audience is tiny! Only about 3 million tune in to watch his rants out of a population of 300M.That’s 1%. And a lot of them are ‘liberals’ looking to be wound up!

    Beck is a rather desperate attempt to build an audience. In the UK we use Christine Bleakely’s legs instead…

  • Neville Bagnall

    “Labour, of course, also used it to promote its own propaganda in support of the Iraq war”.

    Through the BBC? Really? Do the names David Kelly and Andrew Gilligan ring any bells?

    The BBC and UK broadcasting generally has its problems, but by comparison to the alternatives its a paradigm of independence and good journalism.

  • pippakin

    Notwithstanding my earlier comment. I do like Glenn Beck. He does as I said earlier throw up some interesting and little known facts.

    He is showbiz, not news. As long as people know the difference that’s fine.

  • Lovely stuff! This is an almost perfect textbook example of trollery. Ignore the ball – go straight for the man. Then improvise a few opinions that I *probably* have, explain them as the product of a cynical motivation. Then top it all off with an overwrought conspiracy theory based upon a bizarre misreading of the actuality. You’ve really missed your calling Alias. You could win prizes for this stuff.

  • White Horse

    The irony of your comments, USA! Lol!

  • John East Belfast

    Paul

    “Ignore the ball – go straight for the man”

    You are the one who started a thread called

    “Does Glenn Beck really have blood on his hands” !

    You cant do Glenn Beck without doing the man – indeed that is how he would want it to be as he is usually billed bigger than his message

  • Greenflag

    The problem is that in the USA it seems as if many people don’t know the difference between showbiz and the news /politics and Fox Viewers love simple answers to complex problems -the fact that they may be wrong for the country is immaterial . One of President Obama’s main problems is not that he has misdiagnosed what is slowly eating out the remaining organs of american democracy and disemboweling it’s economy but he has failed to take note of the American ‘marketing imperative ‘ i.e ‘ I want it now’ regardless of whether it’s affordable . This applies as much to turning around the economy as to winning the wars in Afghanistan , Iraq etc etc . For decades Americans have been brainwashed by their TV culture into expecting immediate results even up to and including immediate ‘salvation’ in a next world which none of them have ever seen or will ever see . The fact that the current American economic catastrophe has been engineered by the very people that Beck and his ilk now wish to see return to power should be enough to convince most americans that he’s an idiot and probably to judge by some of his comments on air a near schizoid . Beck is probably certifiable and O’Reilly and Hannity are not far behind .

    The simple fact of economic life is that the USA went into it’s current ‘economic doom ‘mode as far back as 2001 actually prior to the Sept 11 mass murder . The rot began in the late 1970’s and was propelled forward under both Reagan’s and Clinton’s presidencies . Yes there were periods when it seemed the future looked rosy i.e when Clinton infamously juggled the numbers to prove that the budget ‘deficit’ had been turned into a budget ‘surplus’ . The global outsourcing of ‘middle class ‘ jobs and the growing power and clout of Wall St and the financial sector on American politics and more particularly on American Congressmen and Senators which speeded up from the mid 1990’s -both of these trends helped fuel the current mess .

    The ‘good jobs’ are not coming back to the USA and there is nothing to replace them except a small number of high tech jobs and fast food and low paying health care and military or public service employment .

    The extra 8 million unemployed thrown onto the dole lines of the USA will mostly find that even if they do find another job sometime it will be at a lower wage rate (supply and demand) with no health insurance benefits , virtually no paid vacation or probably less than half of what most western europeans get .

    Beck and his neo con alternates promise Americans that if little arsenic (low taxes -deregulation -small government ) is a tonic then it naturally follows that a cupful of arsenic will be even better and that when the GOP are returned to power then every American will benefit from a bucketful of arsenic .

    It’s called the fallacy of composition . The American Republican Party is now so far to the right and being built on a steady diet of tea party anger and overt racism as well as a new uneducated generation of know nothings that Americans risk even more wars and the inevitable further economic destruction that has been foisted on them by both Bush regimes and by default by every American administration since the 1980’s .

    It will take a decade or two of major reforms in the financial sector , education and in health care sectors for the USA to prevent it’s further comparative decline .

  • John,

    I’m not sure you understand the whole ‘play the ball not the man’ concept, do you?

    The question of whether a rabble-rouser has to bear some responsibility for the rabble they rouse is a legitimate one. On the other hand, for someone to ignore the question and instead say that I raise it because of imaginary motives or that I hold views that I’ve never expressed and provided no evidence of holding- that is what the ‘ball not the man’ notion is intended to discourage.

  • American news is all the better for being combatitive and partisan. A great deal more entertaining, which is where Rush, Beck and the shock jocks have made such an impact (probably greater than their actual audience reach). They are talked about – better than not being talked about – and lead the agenda – while our media often follows. When it comes to analysis though, UK media is good and none better on Beck than Paul Mason from Newsnight here http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/09/the_gospel_according_to_glenn.html and a wider note on the Tea Party here http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/10/the_penury_of_americas_middle.html

  • YOu won’t get more simpler than the news/comment from NBC or CBS.

  • Glenn Beck is a Mormon.

  • Alias

    Stop being such a drama queen. You have stated your personal politics on Slugger: you are a supporter of the Labour party. The BBC is a propaganda tool for the left wingers that are employed in it. It is a straightforward statement to say that you would approve of the BBC because you as a left winger support its slant and wouldn’t approve of it if it had a right wing slant since you don’t approve of FOX because it is right wing. Does the BBC have blood on its hands? Yes, it does – the blood of a million Iraqis, and blood is also on the hands of Labour’s media toadies such as yourself.

  • Alias

    Some back it, some don’t. Those who back it often do so out of misplaced nationalist sentiment (“Best of British, old boy”) and to take a swipe at the American media as Mr Evans is doing.

  • “…you are a supporter of the Labour party.” – True

    “The BBC is a propaganda tool for the left wingers that are employed in it.” What? Like almost *all* of it’s anchormen/women? I can only name two that are of the political left. I can name more of them that are either pronounced Tories or who take a line that the Tories are quite comfortable with. Does the term ‘BBC Political Editor Nick Robinson’ ring any bells with you?

    I’ve worked, researched and written in support of the concept of Public Service Broadcasting for more than fifteen years and I’ve been openly critical of both Labour and Conservative broadcasting policy in respect of PSBs (both the BBC along with ITV and C4). PSBs can only survive if they remain convincingly pluralist in the way that they have in the UK and didn’t in Italy.

    I don’t suppose you have any views on the question raised in the original post?

  • Comrade Stalin

    I see no irony, although it certainly would be ironic if you didn’t know what “irony” meant.

  • Alias

    Just to come back to how the political biases of media employees permeates the content of the media, and how this bottom-up direction compares with top-down direction. If you look at the three US media networks (NBC, CBS and ABC) that were most sycophantic in their coverage of Obama’s 2008 campaign and then compare it with party political donations given by the employees of those networks, you’ll see that 88% of those employees of NBC, CBS and ABC who gave money in 2008 gave it to the Democrats. That is a clear correlation between the personal bias of media employees and the framing of the news content of the media.

    This is more of a loose federation of the like-minded than a deliberate conspiracy to distort the media. In the case of this thread, a left-winger is attacking what he sees as impartiality in a US media network that is right-wing while ignoring impartiality in the other networks that are not right-wing but rather are proffering a political agenda that he shares. It is no coincidence that the political left is attacking FOX but neither is it organised conspiracy that the thread’s author should feel compelled to join in with that attack. It is simply a loose federation of the like-minded using their positions in the media (or indeed blogs) to promote their own political value system.

    It is promoted as ‘objectivity’ or ‘impartiality’ when it is simply left wing propaganda, and a desire to censor political perspectives that they disagree with.

  • Alan Maskey

    When I travel, I sometimes watch Fox News and am literalluy mesmerised by it. It is technologically structured to do that and the utter banality of the content also bewitches.
    The charges against Mr Beck have been levelled against Rushbaugh and the other right wingers in the past. Though Rushbaugh is extremely articulate, I don’t think Beck is. However, he plays to a home crowd.
    On the British/Irish front: save me the crap. On train journeys, I often persue the tabloids and other rubbish the unwashed leave after them. One of them had over 75% of its content devoted to celebrities. We all know about the X Factor, Big Brother, Paris Hilton. We are uninformed/misinformed sheep and not much better than the bamboozled Yanks.
    I looked at the TV for a few minutes today: cookery programmes,.X Factor take offs and Formula One Racing.
    Alias is correct about the Iraq war.
    We live in a cocoon with Naom Chomsky, John Pilger and a few others wheeled out on ocasion to assuage our sensitive souls.
    The Yanks are submerged in the journalism of the trivia. And, as with obesity, where they went, we will surely sollow.

  • So people who work in the media have a democrat bias? And people with an education tend to the view that humans are descended from other primates? There’s your correlation.

    “In the case of this thread, a left-winger is attacking what he sees as impartiality in a US media network that is right-wing while ignoring impartiality in the other networks that are not right-wing but rather are proffering a political agenda that he shares.”

    No I’m not. I just wonder how many other arguments you are going to imagine me advancing?

    My objection is to the demagoguery of a network and a journalist that deliberately and consistently propagates falsehoods without any pluralism to counteract them – ones that inspire fruitcakes go around attempting to assassinate people.

    In broadcasting terms, good public service broadcasters don’t do this and broadcasters that are run by commercial interests *that have their own public policy goals* do,

    I wonder what arguments you will imagine me making next?

  • Greenflag

    And Utah was where George W Bush got his highest percentage vote in 2000 and 2004 .Morminism has a long history of emphasizing financial success so it should come as no surprise that ‘fraud’ has been epidemic in the State .Salt Lalt City is the USA’s smallest city to have it’s own local branch of the Federal securities and Exchange Commission . The Ogden Standard Examiner reported that ‘the cultural emphasis in the Mormon Church that equates financial success with spiritual success as well as an unquestioning allegiance to authority figures , may partly explain why 10,000 Utah investors have been swindled out of more than 200 million dollars during the last decade .

    A compendium of press stories would turn up the following less than praiseworthy descriptions of Salt Lake City

    The nation’s ‘ Stock fraud capital ‘ , ‘a leading center of financial shenanigans’ , ‘the sewer of the securities industry ‘ among many more

    The above is from Kevin Phillip’s ‘Bad Money’

    well worth a read for anyone interested in the ‘connections between the neo con nutters of the right , and the prosperity is yours for the taking (even illegally ) churches of the reborns 🙁

  • Greenflag

    ‘and am literalluy mesmerised by it’

    Then you should find this idiot mesmerising too 🙁
    Beck’s political cousin just slightly louder and probably not much more insane 🙁

  • pippakin

    I think to really appreciate the inane content of Fox you have to watch Shep Smith “Round the world in 80 seconds” and that folks is the ‘world’ news…

  • White Horse

    Comrade 40 million dead

    You obviously haven’t read USA at play on the North. By the way, you wouldn’t be a sociopath, would you?

  • Comrade Stalin

    In continuing to employ Glenn Beck, does Fox News really have blood on its hands?

    Nope.

    “the other boy told me to do it” isn’t an argument we’d sympathize from one of our children after a transgression. Why should we accept it from grown adults ?

    Don’t get me wrong, Beck is vile. But his popularity has a lot to do with the failure of the USA’s “reality-based community” to organize themselves properly to counter the vicious propaganda/lies peddled by Beck, Hannity and friends.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Did I ask you to trust Glenn Beck’s judgment? I wasn’t concerning myself with Mr. Beck at all. But in line with what I said re Romney, put the warning light on for Mr. Beck as well.

  • Greenflag

    I agree Comrade Stalin with some reservations .

    ‘ Why should we accept it from grown adults ?’

    Adolf Eichmann’s excuse along with thousands of others was he was following orders . As for accepting or not accepting that will depend on who wins the war . Had Eichmann’s side won the war he would not have had to find an excuse -ditto for others .

  • Brian

    Utah ranks number 1 among the all the states in terms of being business friendly.

    I work in Washington DC and have been working here for several years. My boss is a Mormon and there are several other Mormons in my office. They are all very nice but there is no doubt they certainly look out for each other.

  • Brian

    What did Bush 1 do to foist economic destruction on the US?

    BTW I’m pretty sure Beck is not a Neocon. He’s just an ignorant populist

  • Brian

    Seriously? Beck’s political cousin?

  • Alias

    “So people who work in the media have a democrat bias?” – Paul Evans

    That is supported by the evidence compiled by CRP. The three US networks, ABC, CBS and NBC, that proffered propaganda in support of the Democratic candidate in the 2008 US presidential election campaign were the networks where a total 88% of all political donations made to parties by “senior executives, on-air personalities, producers, reporters, editors, writers and other self-identifying employees” went to the Democrats. There is a clear correlation between the political bias of those network employees and the political bias of those networks.

    “And people with an education tend to the view that humans are descended from other primates? There’s your correlation.”

    I assume you mean that only educated people would hold left wing political views, and that those who no not hold such views don’t hold them because they are uneducated. If that is what you mean then you have made my point for me about left wing propaganda, and left wingers such as yourself proffering it through the media and blogs.

    “In the case of this thread, a left-winger is attacking what he sees as impartiality in a US media network that is right-wing while ignoring impartiality in the other networks that are not right-wing but rather are proffering a political agenda that he shares.” – Alias

    “No I’m not.” – Paul Evans

    Yes, you are, and you have just proffered more of your cheap propaganda above. Why did you not, in framing your blog in terms of regulation of the US media to promote impartiality in news reporting, not include examples of where this impartiality was lacking in left wing media? Why did you only include one example of it, and thereby forego impartiality on your part in doing so? It is self-evident why you did this: you did it to promote left wing propaganda that those who hold political views that are not left wing are lunatics of the sort that murder liberals and led to do it by “shock-jocks” whom you, as a propagandist, would like to create the false impression form the majority of that political constituency that is not left wing.

    “I just wonder how many other arguments you are going to imagine me advancing?” – Paul Evans

    Don’t you mean “observe” you advancing? You’re now like the little kid with crumbs on his lips denying he went near the cookie jar.

    “My objection is to the demagoguery of a network and a journalist that deliberately and consistently propagates falsehoods without any pluralism to counteract them – ones that inspire fruitcakes go around attempting to assassinate people.” – Paul Evans

    Yes, but only if they’re right wing fruitcakes.

    “In broadcasting terms, good public service broadcasters don’t do this and broadcasters that are run by commercial interests *that have their own public policy goals* do.” – Paul Evans

    And Mr Beck has not done so either since there is already a law in the US that prohibits incitement to murder. State-controlled broadcasters such as the BBC can be forced by the state to support a campaign of violence against millions as occured with the Iraq war so it is far more dangerous to allow the state to have the level of control that you wish it to have than it is to remove that control from the state. We have your beloved European media running stories about the Israeli army killing Palestinians in order to harvest their internal organs but we don’t have any blogs from you condemning this irresponsible incitement to hatred, do we? To try to advance this isolated ‘fruitcake’ as a valid reason to censor the freedom of the US press is just gibberish, frankly. What you were really doing is proffering your own political agenda, which is esentially “Look at those crazy people who aren’t left wing like us sensible, well-balance types.”

    “I wonder what arguments you will imagine me making next?” – Paul Evans

    I guess it’ll be more of the the ones you make and then deny making.

  • Only noting that the network that supposedly destroyed Mitt Romney on the basis of antipathy to Mormonism promotes Glenn Beck, a Mormon. If Fox were anti-Mormon how would Beck have airtime?

  • Beck’s a great guy and I am sure he will be a key adviser to President Palin in 2012. BTW – seen those forecasts for thw Mid-terms? How’s that hopeychangey thing goin’ for you guys?

  • Greenflag

    You have a slightly better chance of making it into the NI Assembly than Palin has of ever choosing the curtains for the White House . Don’t hatchet the mid terms just yet -egg on face and that thingey !

    [Play the ball – edited moderator]

  • I only wish the UK Lame steam media had the courage to allow the UK equivalents of Beck air-time. Instead all we get is thirty shades of left.Fair and balanced?

  • pippakin

    David Vance

    Palin, you sure? I have a feeling Newt Gingrich has his eye on the WH.

  • JAH

    That’s the best laugt I’ve had all day. So why hasn’t Cameron appointed Littlejohn to run his PR? Probably for the same reasons no sane individual would allow Beck in through the door.

    I’ll repeat again. Only 1% of Americans watch his entertainment show. The vast majority ignore him

  • JAH

    We have lots of shock jocks the length and breadth of the land. Except nobody much listens to them. They are treated by most people as really going through some sort of care in the community by being allowed to broadcast.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The day David Vance regards the local media coverage as fair and balanced is the time to get out of the country.

  • Greenflag

    spoilsport -I’m sure Vancey would have loved the titular abuse 😉 now he’ll never know what he missed 🙁

    I’ m sooooooooooooooo sorrrrrrrrrrrrrry 😉

  • Greenflag

    You need to move beyond simple right left ideology Vancey -Those days are coming to an end and offer no real solutions to the decline of the western world .

  • Alan Maskey

    Paul Evans: Your criticisms of Mr Beck are many years too late. Rush Limbaugh was blamed for inciting the Oklahoma bombing. Rush can certainly spin it. He is entertaining and a lot more articulate than Beck, whom I regard as the more successful equivalent of the plonkers who are hired by the Sindo.

    David Vance: Do you like all the big Fox News names? What are your five favourite/best British media outlets? For hard news, that is, not celebrity gossip and the like.

  • Greenflag

    Most Americans other than racists and neo con freaks are NOT going to vote in as President a cretin like GIngrich who divorced his cancer stricken wife and then lied about his upbringing . Everybody knows or knew about President’s Obama ‘international background from his school years in Indonesia to his half sisters in Kenya and Indonesia and his other half sister in Germany who speaks perfect German .

  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    Gingrich is all you say, but he is also powerful within his party and has the support of many of the, ahem, bible bashing types. In addition the Republican party appears to be undecided. McCain apart from moving to the right has announced he is not going to run again, so, that leaves the powerful Gingrich among a crowd of relative unknowns. Palin? no, I really can’t see that.

  • Alan Maskey

    http://www.radiotimes.com/blogs/1064-strictly-come-dancing-ann-widdecombe-diary-week-five/

    “Slighlty off topic but Anne Widdecombe writes a nice Strictly Come Dancing blog for a rabid right winger. Is there hope? David?

  • Gendjinn

    Highway Patrol prevented a gun attack on the Tides Foundation in San Francisco – the guy got the idea to attack Tides from Glenn Beck.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/24/INPG1EIKHU.DTL

  • USA

    40 million dead? What are you talking about?

  • USA

    I agree that some of his audience watch out of voyeurism rather than support. It’s for the shock value.
    If you ever get the chance CNBC (liberal) is a much better channel for the more discerning American public, ie those that vote Democrat. The shite on Fox is so fringe Republicans can reinforce their own right wing world view.

  • USA

    GreenFlag,
    It’s not all over yet, but there is a lot of truth in what you say, unfortunately.

  • Mickles

    Byron Williams (who shot at police, and explained that he planned to kill people of importance at TIDES and ACLU), speaking to journalist John Hamilton:

    “Beck would never say anything about a conspiracy, would never advocate violence. He’ll never do anything of this nature. But he’ll give you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need.” – Byron Williams.

    “I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn’t for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind.” – Byron Williams

    So the answer is ‘yes’ – when Beck hawks his unsubstantiated nonsense to braindead, unable-to-think-for-themselves morons, Byron Williams is the result.

    Fox news is laughable, for all the misinformation it peddles for ratings. Perpetuating rumours and flat out lies, writing off the hard evidence against it’s ridiculous claims as attacks by the liberal agenda. It’s like those people who counter actual blatantly obvious evidence by shouting over you and claiming you’re attacking them.

  • Greenflag

    pippakin ,

    ‘has the support of many of the, ahem, bible bashing types. ‘

    Ah the bible bashers -Some of the species seem to have revised the Christian message and have adapted it to the eh believers in the God wants you to be rich prosperity churches . Jesus in the revised version did not expel the money changers and Pharisees from the temple but as we all know now he actually hated the poor and the sick and especially those without health insurance – and even gave a push to make sure the rich man could enter through the eye of the needle . New evidence for this belief is shown by the way Jesus a.k.a God directly orders the killing of hundreds of thousands of the desperately poor all over the world -Haiti-Indonesia -China etc etc – never in Beverly Hills or Wall St -and as per Pat Robertson the same Jesus delivered aids as a warning to mankind not to ease up on biblical homophobia !

    But alas the God of prosperity has failed one of his longest standing insitutions . The Crystal Mega Church of Orange County , California has filed for bankruptcy .

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?

    The power of positive thinking has it’s limitations -somewhere around 48 million dollars in this particular case . It’s not known whether Bank of America or Goldman Sachs will now ‘diversify’ into the religion business now that sub prime lootery and CDO fraudulent are now passe 🙁

    Interestingly well certainly in comparison to ‘religious identity issues ‘ in NI – some 50% of all marriages in the USA are now between people of different faiths and denominations . In addition to that fact some 33% of Americans who believe in a religion have removed themselves from the religion of their birth . While this might appear on the surface to be a trivialisation of religion or a downgrading of the product to say a particular brand of baked beans or rolls of toilet tissue nevertheless there appear to be some positive benefits as can be heard from this link on the post below

    http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=130650141&m=130650130

  • Mickles

    Courage?! You mean stupidity. Thankfully the people in this part of the world would see right through a character like Beck. Not being disparaging to all Americans but they have serious problems with media fact checks over there.

    It’s amusing that right wingers often equate facts backed up with evidence as a liberal bias. They talk and shout over anyone who asks them for evidence or tries to explain the proof of the actual facts. The right, particularly in America tend to just not listen to anything that does not re-enforce their world view in my experience.

    It’s typical of the right to attack ‘Lame stream media” for refusing to report on rumour and insinuation, and focus on facts – Many times I’ve heard Fox “News” reporters start sentences in supposed news stories with: ‘Some people say..’ or ‘It’s interesting that..’ or ‘A lot of people are talking about…’

    Unsubstantiated and easily debunked nonsense from the likes of Beck, O Reilly, Hannity, Jones and Limbuagh just wouldn’t sell over here – we like to have at least some proof when someone makes outrageous claims – we’ve heard enough bullplop over the years to be wise to it!

  • Alan Maskey

    “It’s like those people who counter actual blatantly obvious evidence by shouting over you and claiming you’re attacking them.”

    Bill O’Reilly would NEVER do that

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIcx_rxTstc

    Though the technological slickness and informational banality of Fox News amazes me and more articulate Americans, you are wrong to say not over here. The Sunday Independent is crafted to appeal to the lower denomination. British tabloids are world infamous, celebrity crap is pandemic and Alias has already alluded to the invasion and criminal invasion of Iraq, which UN muppet and married into the Wallenberg family Kofi Annan had to even admit was wrong.
    America simply sets the pace and the Irish and British lackeys follow. ^To be fair to the Amerians, wen all they get is wall to wall crap, how are they supposed to know any different?
    Menawhile, the main British stories today are: Ark Royal (the ship, not the horse), Wayne Rooney and some woman getting pestered for throwing cat into a wheelie bin (this latter is a global story)

  • Mickles

    Classic O Reilly! This is also pretty ridiculous (sorry about quality) as Billo cracks up when an Iraq War vet’s son doesn’t share his views: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BAFb97L3KU

    You’re bang on about the tabloids – i just thought it was a given that no one here with any sense considers the likes of the Sunday Independant or the Sun, Mirror, Daily mail, etc. as actual news. I forget that some people actually still read newspapers!

    I try to make my own mind up about the news using actual video evidence, youtube, etc. Where in-context unedited videos are laid out for you in full and often shed light on some stories. The internet community at large is generally quite good at spotting fakes and bullplop and calling it out as such. There’s a lot of balls out there on the interpipes but often the facts are out there for those who seek them and are willing to check a wide variety of sources, rather than depending on one outlet which is solely concerned with sales rather than facts.

  • Alan Maskey

    See Mickles, that is a serious flaw in your stance and that of Mr Evans. People do read the papers you mention.
    The Sindo is perhaps the most intereresting of the papers you mention. It has great sports coverage (on the sports pages, not the twits who do GAA bashing elsewhere on it). Its obituary columns are also important.
    The Sun is “great” with its subbing puns and the Daily Mail does tap into middle Englande. One canot just write off those forces.
    When I buy a paper, I buy the Daily Telegraph, much on the lines Eamonn Mccann extololed many moons ago. He said growing up in Derry, his da always bought the Daily Express (good racing pages btw) as he then knew the exact opposite was the truth.
    Good papers, loke all otehrs are under financial pressure.

    And what is a great paper? The Economist used beautiful English but its stories are mosrly rehashes and they propound the globalisation view that Alias would destroy. They also pander to their readers, telling them how suave they are and to prove it, they should renew their subs.
    A closer reading of papers like The Economist shows its uglier Pax Americana side.
    The FT and WSJ often have good, incisive stories with a right wing bent (which is their right). Not too good on racing, the dogs or whether Rpoo and Coleen and Fergie wil all live happily ever after,
    Nor are they particulalry good to tell us what Phil Mitchell is up to. Say what you like about the sapies but we must be up to speed on them and the other dross that fills the TV ti hold certain conversations.

  • Mickles

    “One canot just write off those forces.”

    Unfortunately not, however, the death of the newspaper is coming on leaps and bounds. Growing up during the crossover to the information age has maybe spoiled me with having the ability to look up any alleged fact or claim on a million different webpages, and I think it’s a shame people DO still read those papers.

    For all the guff out there on the net, when you look in the right places (here for starters) you tend to get the views of real people, uncensored and unedited, right or wrong, and not the views of some journalist, paid to exaggerate fear and stoke the fires of division. Of course the net has plenty of nutty crazies saying nothing of consequence, (myself included), and it requires a certain level of personal common sense to ascertain fact from fiction – which a newspaper doesn’t think you need. But the resources are out there for all to see if we look for them.

    Newspapers are trying to shift copies and we see them sloshing about in the gutter every day, in order to sell more. I find it hard to value the opinions of a regular sun or mail reader. And couldn’t bring myself to read through page after page about who is sleeping with who – the TV advert about the paper with an exclusive about john terry makes me physically ill, and filled with despair for the human race.

    You mention great sports coverage in the Sindo, I can’t speak on that as I don’t really follow sports, racing tips online are more up to the minute and have done me better than a paper at the bookies, with endless pages of statistics to inform your descision, obituaries usually get sent to me in the form of a text message joke copied off sickipedia. The Sun is certainly not “great” – even with quotes to indicate sarcasm, it’s gutter press example number one. If want puns I’ll buy a Tim Vine dvd. The mail taps into nothing but fear and is the closest thing to Fox News we have here.

    I guess we’re from different times Sir but I just can’t get behind the concept of a newspaper in this day and age, with so many other and better ways to obtain information and opinion. Let them die!

  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    Looking forward to playing the link later tonight.

    I suppose there is nothing wrong with ambition but there does appear to be a strong element in the US that have decided ambition and even more, success is their God. I just can’t get my head around it, especially when you think of the ‘churches’ who have been in trouble with the law there, including the latest ‘preacher’ accused of sexually assaulting young males.

    It probably won’t hurt the preacher much. It’s true what they say: there are none so blind as those who will not see. Sad.

  • Alan Maskey

    Fox is excellent but when it comes to UK news it is a poor effort. We have the outrageous BBC from the State Broadcaster and trash from Channel 4. ITN is also grim. The one thing all these channels have is leftist bias and as a great example of this I offer Question Time, that weekly lefty love in with soaring intellects like Billy Bragg giving us their marxist wisdom. UK media needs a REAL Fox (Not Sky) amongst the chickens.

  • Driftwood

    http://thedailymailoncologicalontologyproject.wordpress.com/

    Loved the Mail headline a few months ago stating ‘Housework prevents breast cancer’.

  • Alan Maskey

    Yes, but to go back to my questions: which British/Irish media outlets do you actually like?

  • Mickles

    @ Driftwood

    That is a genius site! Gotta watch out for them energy saving lightbulbs!

  • White Horse

    USA

    According to Wikipedia estimates of the number of victims of Stalin range from 3 to 60 million. I’m just reminding our comrade of the reality of his seeming ambivalence to the evil that was Stalin.

  • Mickles

    Are you serious? I’ve never heard of you David Vance, but to say “Fox is excellent” and mean it, is the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. I’m not defending any other networks, but I’ve seen some of them and wouldn’t classify any of the other sources you list as having a ‘leftist bias’ – they just don’t report rumour as fact as much as Fox “News”.

    I mean, how can you say that about a supposed news organisation that took legal action to ensure they can lie!?!? http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/11-the-media-can-legally-lie/

    Question time has a leftist bias? Didn’t they have the BNP on?

  • Mickles

    [Play the ball, not the man – edited moderator]

  • Driftwood

    There are others..

    http://kill-or-cure.heroku.com/

    The Mail is a hypochondriacs wankfest.

    There are also the ‘shock’ photos of scantily clad celebs and ‘wardrobe malfunctions’ to satisfy the office conservatives.

    As the print market contracts, the headline grabbing nonsense gets worse, Ben Goldacres ‘Bad Science’ blog counteracts it all.

  • None.

  • Mickles.

    Suggest you give this site a visit.
    http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com
    I hear it is rather good.

  • Alan Maskey

    David Vance: Thank you for the link. It is a lot of money to pay just to get cookery programmes and the lovely Anne Widecomble on Atrictly Come Dancing (I wonder when Gerry A will do it).
    .The site uses quotes from the Daily Mail and Observer.
    You cannot say you hate or despise all the media. Though that sounds very Fox Newsish/Rush Limbaughish, it does indicate you get few if any mainstream sources of info. I do not think this helps your credibility in general.
    You think, for example, the D Telegraph is a total waste?

  • Alan

    DT and Times OK at times, Mail has it’s moments, Guardian a rag and Indie divorced from reality. Local press dodgy although some decent journos. Problem is the lack of balance on TV and the central issue is the £3BN annual BBC tax imposed on us. This stifles opinion, betrays genuine debate. Fox brings left and right to debate, the BBC brings Hard Left and Moderate Left to debate. It’s the lack of choice, the scarcity of diversity….that so grates. By way of evidence, check out the BBC’s coverage of the Comprehensive Spending Review as it unfolds tomorrow.

  • Mickles

    Ok so you choose to ignore my question about how you can consider Fox to be excellent given their legal action to ensure they can lie to the public and instead you post a link to some site you say is rather good.

    Within minutes I could instantly see what a joke that site is – the first article at the top of the page: (http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/2010/10/who-said-what.html) talks about Robin Shepard’s ‘well deserved pop at the BBC’, Robin Shepard who then goes on to complain about the BBC article and how ‘It gives them a golden opportunity, which they grasp with alacrity, to opine negatively in the form of: one “critics say” and one: “some suggest.”’

    Which is a fair enough point about BBC bias, and is exactly what Fox News constantly does and it’s sad the BBC is following suite. Obviously I switch off when I see phrases like those.

    Then I scroll down to the Jesse Jackson article (http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/2010/10/genuflecting-to-race-hustler.html), where whatever moron posted the article uses the phrase ‘*Some* argue Jackson was weeping because “it should have been me”.’

    As if it wasn’t bad enough to accuse a CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER of playing the race card (complete with tasteless, badly photoshopped image), the poster uses this low level insinuation and thinly disguised inuendo to claim that a man who has campaigned tirelessly for African Americans, was showing ingenuine emotion, on the night that America saw something come to pass that no black American could have ever dreamed of in the 50s and 60s. So the poster of the article is either psychic and can read Jesse Jackson’s mind, or believes that civil rights is simply a form of ‘playing the race card’ and should be denied to certain groups of people.

    The Jesse Jackson article seems to insinuate that Jesse Jackson has sour grapes that Obama got elected and not him. But the radio interview that the article refers to doesn’t give me that impression (I listened to it all) – Jackson seems to be reasoning that the fall of Obama’s popularity is down to smearing by certain elements of the media and political opponents – which is pretty much true (links to video proof on request!) I don’t get hints of jealousy from that, it’s a stretch at best to say Jackson thinks ‘it should have been me’.

    Anyway Vancey, thanks for the link, I look forward to finding other hilariously ill-informed contradictory articles on that site.

    BOOM!

  • Mickles

    Fox brings right and left, cuts left off, lets right speak over them:

  • JR

    “Fox brings left and right to debate,”

    You might as well try to convince me that pigs fly. I am no great fan of the BBC or RTE news for that matter but they are pillars of truth and fairness when compared to FOX

  • LOL – JR, stick to Dallas.

  • Mickles

    LOL at Vance – ignoring the many points he can’t refute to have a go at JR, using a reference that shows just how out of touch he is – you should come join us in the 21st century.

  • JR

    LOL- ever google imaged your own name david?

  • The Reincarnation of Paul Reveres Horse

    Is this worth revisiting after what happened in Tuscon yesterday. Plenty of commentators including those at the independent were suggesting Fox News, Beck and Palin have to shoulder some responsibility for the shootings.

  • pippakin

    The Reincarnation of Paul Reveres Horse

    No. The origin of those ‘suggestions was a Democrat. It now appears that the murderer may have been more Left than Right wing. Free speech cannot be banned because of the risk of lunatics.

  • edgeoftheunion

    “It now appears that the murderer may have been more Left than Right wing.”

    It may be a lot more weird than that.

    “He dropped out of high school during his final year and drifted for a bit. Then he crossed paths with Gabrielle Giffords, the congresswoman he attempted to assassinate on Saturday.

    Three years ago, Loughner had found a place at a community college and attended one of Giffords’ outdoor meetings with constituents. He submitted a written question that essentially asked: “What is government if words have no meaning?”

    When Giffords, presumably baffled, gave only a cursory response, Tierney said Loughner was angered.

    “He said, ‘Can you believe it, they wouldn’t answer my question’, and I told him, ‘Dude, no one’s going to answer that’,” Tierney said. “Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/jared-lee-loughner-arizona-shooting

  • andnowwhat

    Last night I signed up to The Guardina website to comment on the shooting. Suddnly the place went crazy with right wing americanscalling all British people lefties etc. and some racist stuff too.

    None of them had any profile information and their discussion history only recorded their current one.

    I posted and asked a guy, who it seemed was a regular, if they normally have this many americans and of this ilk on the site. He told me never so many.

    Now, what was going on there?

    Oh yeah, they also kept posting the same stuff, same comments and lists.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    The nonsensical right wing/nut job belief that “guns dont kill people….people kill people” plays well in USA.
    But of course in Western Europe we are far too sophisticated to accept that.
    But anyone accepting/rejecting that is also bound to believe or disbelieve that what people say on internet message boards/talk shows does/does not kill people”

    Sadly it seems the Internet has an underside which is very unpleasant. And the laptops dont do the killing but the people using them kill.
    If we accept that we should have gun control….it is logical to say that we should have a measure of internet control.
    It is seemingly a weapon.

    Yet the most interesting aspect of the internet is the two continents divided by a common political language.
    I enjoy being a relatibvely sane……slightly left of centre person in Europe and yet on American message boards I am denounced as a dangerous, pinko, liberal, commie.

  • edgeoftheunion

    andnowwhat.

    Oh it is better than that. There are even Americans who think the Daily Mail is run by pinkos.