Number of security alerts indicate heightened concern

[Updated below the fold]  Yesterday’s security alert in east Belfast has been declared a hoax, and another in the Gobnascale area of Londonderry has ended after army bomb experts examined a ‘suspicious’ van following reports of masked men and shots being fired.  And more army bomb experts are examining a suspicious object found near the home of a police officer in Kilkeel, County Down.

Adds From the updated BBC report

[The police officer] is the niece of independent republican councillor Martin Connolly, who left Sinn Fein three years ago when the party decided to support the PSNI.

He declined to condemn the apparent attack, saying he “did not want to get into the politics of condemnation”.

“It hasn’t done any good in the past, nor will it do any good in the future,” he said.

“The fact of the matter is – let’s deal with facts and be realistic about it – while there’s British occupation in Ireland there will always be opposition to that, whether you agree with it or not.”

Mr Connolly added: “Let’s wait and see the outcome of this and see whether or not it is a viable device or whether it’s something as simple as a hoax.”

Well, as Danny Morrison, defending the position then taken by Sinn Féin’s Francie Molloy, once wrote on “The Politics of Condemnation”

Better to be honest, even if it means being misrepresented, than to be a hypocrite.

Indeed.

And  Sunday, security alert outside Lisburn Road police station in Belfast.

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  • joeCanuck

    old school,

    The people of the 26 counties did not vote for the GFA

    Keep on deluding yourself if you wish; the people of the 26 counties knew exactly what they were voting for.

    have an All Ireland vote on partition

    Sure, why not. At the same time ask a second question – “do you favour world peace?” What is it you want – a civil war?

  • Munsterview

    Speak for yourself, mine lit the fire that went out of control and started the thaw!

  • Munsterview

    Pip
    “….a facist cunt.” (12:53)

    I would have thought that the use of female genitalia as a degrading and abusive term would have been your first objection to Donal Fraser ? Are the sisterhood of a certain vintage getting that indifferent and complacent ?

  • MV

    The language is not a problem. Its demonising a whole community I can only take so much of. In reading the thread you will see the comment I had a problem with was not the first of its kind.

  • Alan Maskey

    “he drunken untermenschen of the Ardoyne, Lurgan and every other hell-hole in the North”

    I don’t see what this fascist phrase has to do wit a minor attack in Kilkeel.
    Also, what the Irish people neither knew nor cared what they voted for. It was the Glenane gang’s bombing of Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk. along with the other dirty work of MI5 and pure self interest and laziness that turned almost all of the people of the 26 cos into being apathetic about the 6 cos. The seeming never ending monotony of the killings did not help either.

    PIRA after 1969 turned their back on the 26 cos as the 26 cos had turned their back on them. There were, of course,. some beacons in that apathetic fog, the 1981 INLA hunger strike being perhaps the main one.

    Bottom line folks: get back on track, less name calling, less condemning and repeating and some analysis, even a drop of it.

  • Donald Fraser

    Not sure where I’ve ‘demonised a whole community’ . For the third time – if AR and his murdering scum friends constitute a community then I’ll demonise them while there’s breath in my body.

    What’s the problem with the “use of female genitalia as a degrading and abusive term” Munster? Presumably you also stridently object to people being called a ‘dick’, ‘cock’ ‘knob’ etc? Suspect you’re the type of ‘twat’ (see – it’s a relatively common descriptive device) who wishes he were back in a mid-1980’s student common room peddling ‘right-on’ feminesbian claptrap to gruesome-looking munters in the desperate hope of a shag.

  • vanhelsing

    Back to the original post ‘Martin Connolly declined to condemn the apparent attack, saying he “did not want to get into the politics of condemnation”.

    “It hasn’t done any good in the past, nor will it do any good in the future,” he said’

    No that’s right Martin – condemning attempted murder is never the right thing to do – clearly history shows that 🙂 It weakens your integrity no end…

    So let’s sum up – we have a RC Police Officer who clearly wants to move [both the peace process and NI in general] forward and her uncle who thinks that someone murdering his niece shouldn’t really be condemned, not really…

    So what about it AR, MM and AM – do you both subscribe to Martins views or not – simple Y or N will suffice – think you can manage that Maskey 🙂

  • lamhdearg

    A R on other posts you put a lot of importance on majoritys being the reason you are right in your opinion e.g. you have the backing of the majority of the people of ardoyne to oppose loyal order parades, Why then do you not except the majority of the island of irelands people to let the people of northern ireland decide their own future, Is it the fact that you only except majoritys if they support your view, I can understand why you believe as you do on the question of ireland as a nation, Fathers uncles and our up bringing all combine to teach us to believe as we do, but you must see that same logic applys to loyalist people also? republicans will not convert them by killing their kin and that they will not defeat them in open conflict, In short anti G.F.A. republicans actions are stoping you from getting what you want.

  • Alan Maskey

    You are, for many reasons, not a judge, Herr VanH. Let’s analyse your post, which, like ancient Gaul, is divided into three parts:

    1. Connolly: He is standing by his position. And that is his business and people can interpret it as they will. For my part, I cannot see them having big Christmas reunions. Danny Morrisson, who Herr Baker quotes and quotes again for his own reasons, has two sisters married Brit soldiers at a time people close to Morrisson were trying to kill British soldiers. He did wish them a happy Xmas over the phone. Have the Connolly family unresolved issues? Yes but so have all unhappy families as Tolstoy (he is Russian, VanH) told us.

    2. Connolly’s niece, who joined the PSNI to keep NI safe for Loyalists. I have no idea why she joined. I suspect it could be a mixture of motives, just as your gallant heroes in Afghanistan join for a variety of motives (job, adventure, propaganda, bash uup the locals, save the planet).

    3. There is no word in the Irish language for yes or for no. We can see grey and nuances. Is that too nuanced for you?

  • Donald Fraser

    Because Maskey – those hell-holes seem (funnily enough) to be the only places dumb, bleak, depressing and hate-filled enough to offer support to the murdering scum that are currently rolling-out a series of ‘minor attacks’ across the North. I’ll condemn and name-call murdering scum all I want. The whole country has overwhelmingly reject violence and endorsed the present arrangements. Anyone choosing to perpetrate ‘political’ violence in those circumstances is a facsist [keep it civil – edited moderator]

  • vanhelsing

    Murder isn’t murder if it forwards the republican agenda – it’s only murder if it’s commited a brit – no need to reply to me – you won’t get one back…

  • Comrade Stalin

    The only Ireland I want is a 32 County Democratic Socialist Republic based on the 1919 Declaration….Anything short of that is not something I’d like

    You’re more alien to the Irish mainstream than the British are.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Are you going to endorse Irish national self-determination yourself some day ?

  • Damian O’Loan

    “He is standing by his position. And that is his business…”

    I think it’s fairly clear that it’s not just his business – his niece would have a say for one. Every single Catholic in the PSNI likewise. The people who voted him in on a SF ticket deserve an explanation. Wider society, I’d suggest, has an interest in knowing whether violent Catholic nationalism has an electoral base. So no, it’s not just “his business.”

    “Have the Connolly family unresolved issues? Yes but so have all unhappy families as Tolstoy (he is Russian, VanH) told us.”

    No amount of patronising will convince people that considering the attempted murder of your niece unworthy of comment is ‘normal’.

    “Connolly’s niece, who joined the PSNI to keep NI safe for Loyalists. I have no idea why she joined.”

    That didn’t stop you from fabricating a raft of fiction to suit your own blinkered worldview all the same. Joining the PSNI is nothing like joining the Army, let alone supporting the war in Afghanistan. Maybe she had the maturity to realise that even a united Ireland will need a police force capable of community support and operating to higher standards than knee-cappings and exiles, paedophiles moved on to another city and domestic violence considered par for the course.

    “We can see grey and nuances. Is that too nuanced for you?”

    Not as much you like to think, according to your arguments.

    So, does the constitutional status justify the killing of Catholic PSNI officers? And how is the latter supposed to affect the former?

  • Alan Maskey

    Donald: Save it for your porridge.

  • Donald Fraser

    Sorry Maskey – I don’t speak spide.

  • Alan Maskey

    Mr O’Loan: What are you on about? People join armies for all kinds of reasons and ex squaddies can be hard to integrate back into society. Part of the reason is they don’t know why they joined in the first place.
    I am not patronizing the Connolly family but VanH who patronizes the Oirish as a matter of course. I do not know the young woman and have no idea why she joined. You seem to though. If, as you claim, she joined to make a political statement or if she thought there is now peace and she always wanted to be a copper, or if she thought it was a good job and/or a means to meet a good husband, I don’t know.
    The same goes for Peadar Heffron, a more revealing case as his details are in the public domain. Had Heffron been born in Galway, he probably would have joined the gardai and they would have been happy to have him. Born in Wales, he would have played rugby and joined the local constabulary. Police forces want sportsmen like him, especially ones with an extra cultural package.

    His disfigurement does not help anyone or anything. But it is not me you have to convince. It is the RIRA/CIRA and the communities they draw their support from.

  • Alan Maskey

    On the Heffron thing: the GAA could make a big silent statement by giving him two good Croke Park tickets for life. Now there is something positive to get your teeth into.

  • Donald Fraser

    Beyond parody. [keep it civil – edited moderator]

  • slappymcgroundout

    The problem is as Damian has stated. Piaras Beaslai during the debate on the Treaty:

    The point of view of the non-ratifiers is so unreal, such a resolute attempt not to face realities, that I find it difficult to understand it. We, the members of Dáil Eireann, must realise that the nation was not made for Dáil Eireann, but Dáil Eireann was made for the nation. I will go further and remind the republican doctrinaires that if there was an Irish Republic in the past three years it consisted, not in an abstraction or a legal formula, but in the people of Ireland. The state is the people organised in a coherent form, and no matter whether you call it a Republic or a Free State, my allegiance is to the people of Ireland and to the state which represents the national will. If we do not represent the national will we are a usurpation, and your airy edifice of a Republic crashes to the ground.

  • vanhelsing

    Don’t feed him Damian – he’s made clear that he supports murder if it furthers his own aims…

  • slappymcgroundout

    “You’re going to have to take the question of republicanism respecting the national will seriously if you want to be taken seriously.”

    They never have. To correct the one misstatement, he isn’t a splinter of a splinter of a splinter of a splinter of a splinter of a splinter. He stretches in long unbroken line to those who killed Collins, O’Higgins, etc.

  • PN

    “3. There is no word in the Irish language for yes or for no. We can see grey and nuances. Is that too nuanced for you?”

    Very interesting statement. This sort of linguistic determinism goes right back to Fichte and the birth of Romantic Nationalism. The idea is that the peculiarities of a mother tongue determine a sort of national essence such that one nation literally cannot understand another and can have no relationship other than competition.

    I think it’s a fascinating but pretty dangerous idea. Wagner and Nietzche were very influenced by it. So were the Twentieth century Nationalists who did so much damage (and, in certain rainy corners of Europe, still are).

    P.S. (Fichte was German!)

  • Munsterview

    Donal F.

    My student third level days were in the sixties not the eighties. I did not have the privilege of sitting around in common rooms debating, I was apprentice shop steward for an engineering union, I was on the branch committee also as I was on the council of trade unions.

    My third level was one day a week full time trade based education and two nights a week by my own choice at another institute where the engineering aspect was an appendix to the main activities.

    My son however did have that privilege because I and others like myself I helped organize and agitate finally got a proper technical college, I was shop steward and a convener on site for part of the construction of that facility also. I helped install mechanical services in the building.

    Each of my children did have the luxury of a full time third level education with the privilege of enjoying all, including common room socialising, that those few short student days entailed, including my youngest son who graduated from the institution I helped organize and construct.

    So as to your criticisms of of my student day activities and as you seem to revel in vulgarisms, here is another Munster one that you can add to your vocabulary…..” You can shove that up the highest rafter of your arse hole and I hope it festers…”

    As to my objections to your sexist nomenclature, aside from the pathetic and barren poverty of expression I have known far too many fine women in trade unionism, in the republican movement and in other walks of life to countenance anything other than true equality.

    Inside Munster Traveller culture ( which sometimes preserve what has been lost by society at large ) younger women of child bearing age are referred to as ‘Beores’ from the gaelic beo… meaning life, hence Beor…. life-giver.

    My objection to the specifics of your vocabulary in this regard have nothing to do with ‘feminist claptrap’ they in the main are but the reverse head of your coin, rather my objections arise from a Sacral sense but I have a sad feeling this is too far over your head to relate to in any meaning full way!

  • Munsterview

    Donal F.

    My student third level days were in the sixties not the eighties. I did not have the privilege of sitting around in common rooms debating, I was apprentice shop steward for an engineering union, I was on the branch committee also as I was on the council of trade unions.

    My third level was one day a week full time trade based education and two nights a week by my own choice at another institute where the engineering aspect was an appendix to the main activities.

    My son however did have that privilege because I and others like myself I helped organize and agitate finally got a proper technical college, I was shop steward and a convener on site for part of the construction of that facility also. I helped install mechanical services in the building.

    Each of my children did have the luxury of a full time third level education with the privilege of enjoying all, including common room socialising, that those few short student days entailed, including my youngest son who graduated from the institution I helped organize and construct.

    So as to your criticisms of of my student day activities and as you seem to revel in vulgarisms, here is another Munster one that you can add to your vocabulary…..” You can shove that up the highest rafter of your arse hole and I hope it festers…”

    As to my objections to your sexist nomenclature, aside from the pathetic and barren poverty of expression I have known far too many fine women in trade unionism, in the republican movement and in other walks of life to countenance anything other than true equality.

    Inside Munster Traveller culture ( which sometimes preserve what has been lost by society at large ) younger women of child bearing age are referred to as ‘Beores’ from the gaelic beo… meaning life, hence Beor…. life-giver.

    My objection to the specifics of your vocabulary in this regard have nothing to do with ‘feminist claptrap’ they in the main are but the reverse side of your coin, rather my objections arise from a Sacral sense but I have a sad feeling this is too far over your head to relate to in any meaning full way!

    There are a few such women posting on these pages, perhaps they may have a ting or two to add to my comments?

  • Alan Maskey

    PN: Your point about Fichte is interesting – certainly more interesting that the “do you still beat your wife” posters.

    I think we can agree the British and Irish do not understand each other. They are different and part of it is cultural background/baggage. The Ardoyne, whiich fratures a lot here, is a case in point. It was a stronghold of the ITGWU and of the IRA from the early part of the 20th century.

    Linguistic determinism is interesting and, of course, tied to Romantic Nationalism. However, I am not not only not a determinist but I am very anti determinism. Though this should probably be apparent from my posts, I think determinists from Calvin, Malthus, Marx onward have done incalculable harm.

    There is most likely a strain of determinism in Irish Nationalism which is a multi rooted flower. All flowers should be in their proper position and a weed is just a misplaced flower.
    There are, of course, people (“seeds”) who revel in violence or who become inured to it. Today, August 8th, in 1973, Elmer Wayne Henley confessed to killing his partner and to the the sadistic murders of 27 teenage boys beginning in 1970. People like him often join the armed forces instead. Certainly., Irish republican groups have had, at the least, a sprinkling of needlessly violent people and so too have the UVF and UDR.
    So where does this get us? Perhaps we should all live within our own myths. Our sundered Loyalist brethern should, against the evidence, believe they are democrats and have a democratic tradition. And the dissidents should continue to risk long jail sentences for nothing more than a clap on the back from RSF. And the British rulers should continue to believe they do not have blood on their hands. And others can go on with the same empty condemnations we have been hearing since La Mon and the Abercorn.

  • Donald Fraser

    Right first time Munster – that penultimate paragraph in particular was WAY over my head. Your (unfortunately rather boring) post seems to be abridgable as “I’ve a chip on my shoulder about my relative lack of formal education and I (somewhat anachronistically) think that the use of the word ‘cunt’ is offensive to women.” Well done.

  • Munsterview

    Donal F.

    That simply will not wash.

    In the early eighteen thirties in a mid munster area a Government Surveyor overseeing a roads project was amazed to overhear a group of farmers who were hiring out horse and buts to draw stones, discussing rates in latin. These were my people and culture !

    My Clan were marginalized into bogs and wilderness in the 1600’s post the Elizabethan wars, they had a few barren decades but they managed to keep education central as did others in that community.

    When I left home at seventeen I had a suitcase of books as well as one of clothes and as for having a ‘chip on my shoulder’ well others may have a different view on that, including the various judges that gave me awards at literary festivals over the years.

    Medical problems and forced early retirement gave me time for my current academic pursuits : I now know college life and all that entails. Guess what…… I would not change one moment of my life and enriching early educational life path route back then for the college environs and lifestyle I now know.

    Regrets for boring you, I will forebear any further comment on that matter, I was raised with a value system that did not take kindly to mocking the afflicted and I am loth to break old taboos even if I were so inclined!

  • Munsterview

    Donal F.

    Apologies for double postings, computer on the blink, this went into wrong section

    Donal F.

    That simply will not wash.

    In the early eighteen thirties in a mid munster area a Government Surveyor overseeing a roads project was amazed to overhear a group of farmers who were hiring out horse and buts to draw stones, discussing rates in latin. These were my people and culture !

    My Clan were marginalized into bogs and wilderness in the 1600′s post the Elizabethan wars, they had a few barren decades but they managed to keep education central as did others in that community and hedge schools were numerous in the region.

    When I left home at seventeen I had a suitcase of books as well as one of clothes and as for having a ‘chip on my shoulder’ well others may have a different view on that, including the various judges that gave me awards at literary festivals over the years.

    Medical problems and forced early retirement gave me time for my current academic pursuits : I now know college life and all that entails. Guess what…… I would not change one moment of my life and enriching early educational life path route back then for the college environs and lifestyle I now know.

    Regrets for boring you, I will forebear any further comment on that matter, I was raised with a value system that did not take kindly to mocking the afflicted and I am loth to break old taboos even if I were so inclined!

  • MV

    Hedge Schools, absolutely fascinating! I have been learning a little and hope to expand on that in the not too distant future. People worked so hard, had so little and yet still paid to have their children educated in this unique way.

    At the risk of offending many I have say I see no real; difference between the Brits and the Irish in todays culture. It is mostly Americanised anyway.

    Donald Fraser

    The language you choose is up to you, just as it is up to everyone else to draw their own conclusions.

  • Munsterview

    “………PIRA after 1969 turned their back on the 26 cos as the 26 cos had turned their back on them…….”

    Totally incorrect, Sinn Fein has always operated as a thirty two county unit.

    The IRA division into Northern and Southern commands was for operational regions and the respective commands were dictated by the campaign requirements, not an acknowledgment of the border per se.

    Pat Doherty for instance was one of the Republican organizers that put considerable time into certain Munster areas just as many southerners like myself spend time in the North meeting our northern comrades, communities, seeing and experiencing how things were on the ground up there.

    Some of us in the South knew Derry, Armagh and Belfast better than we did Galway or Dublin back then.

  • lamhdearg

    I did not realise you where a provo, That explains you apparent ambuguity towards kiddie fiddlers.

  • socaire

    Donald Fraser, you should join the PSNI. They seem to reflect your class and opinion of your fellow Irishmen.

  • Munsterview

    I came on this site specifically to support Joe Cahill’s niece and my postings at that period and since on CSA speak for themselves.

    As to the penny just dropping regarding my previous Sinn Fein participation and continuing general party support, as I have referred to it every two or three weeks since, it is hardly news to to the majority of readers at this stage, even David Vance and myself have long got over that stage of things.

    However my apologies to you, giving detailed postings can be confusing for some one who is more accustomed to acquiring their political literacy, such as it is, from painted sectarian wall slogans!

    When someone form my perceived side of the political divide have exceeded the bounds of common decency in their postings, I have constantly objected and tried to steer things towards a reasoned response.

    It is however a sad characteristic of this and other threads that when some ‘knuckle draggers’ resort to proactive crudities and insults there is not the same tendencies on the other side of the debate to pull such obnoxious insulting provokers into line !

    Will this time be any different? Until some of you do disassociate from this garbage, these people can, with justification, claim speak for all on ‘ their side’!

  • lamhdearg

    socaire, Donalds heart on the sleeve statements seem to mirror A R and ALAN, In that all are hitting back at each other with as much venom as they can, What however is your view on Martin Connollys apparent belief that as his NEICE has joined the local police she should be murdered.

  • lamdhearg

    Mr Connolly refused to condemn the attempted murder of his niece. He said such condemnation had not worked in the past. No doubt his family, if he has any willing to recognise him, are thrilled to bits with his neutrality.

  • wild turkey

    Pip
    with respect, i find your logic flawed. ‘Such creatures’ if only condemnation can cease or inhibit their actions, they know only shame. therefore, they may be shamed, yes?

    what they may not be capable of is the personal responsibility and ownership that enables guilt. i suspect in lives and belief structures like these the most ‘responsible’ person is the other guy. because it is always the others guys fault and he made me do it, etc. ,etc. ,etc.

    we have been there, done it, worn and sold the T-shirt.

    long story short? wrestle the scum to the mat once and for all on their terms and methods. it may not be nice and pretty, but neither is this shit. of course, in this instance, i make no reference or inference to the brave and principled mr connolly. let us gaze on patriots for what they are. for they remind many of us of what we are not.

    another Omagh? FFS, where did that get us? and in particular, where did that get the families left behind to clear up the wreckage.

  • lamhdearg

    hello pip, Not that it maters but do you know is she his niece through marriage or is she his sisters/ brothers child?

  • Hello WT its been a while.

    I think I may not have explained myself well (as usual)

    When I said it would take another Omagh I meant the level of condemnation for such an act would stop the atrocities for a while, but not for good. I do not believe ‘such creatures’ know shame at all. Do you think the perpetrators of Omagh are ashamed? I dont.

    Patriots all, or so they would have us believe.

    I sincerely hope there are no more acts of violence, but realistically, with the attempts increasing, and with fools like Connolly trying to find comfort on a spiked fence, sooner or later they will kill again.

  • lamdhearg

    No, I have not seen anything on the relationship beyond what we all know.

  • Steve

    So I see. A united Ireland cannot be obtained by democratic means via an all-Ireland referendum because of the “threat of civil war”. You concede therefore that NI is a terrorist state – founded on the theat of loyalist terrorist violence, created on the basis of a sectarian headcount and maintained on the threat of civil war. And you think NI is legitimate? And, even more laughably, you think NI can ever deserve to work as an entity?

  • lamhdearg

    pip, Good night.

  • Dexter Alar

    “ArdEoin Republican says:
    7 August 2010 at 10:01 pm

    while the immoral occupation of part of Ireland remains so to will armed actions!”

    Why?

  • old school

    Connolly has a point, and one that has not been answered in this thread.
    What does condemnation serve, apart from getting otherwise anonymous politicians some T.V airtime.
    Has it ever been proven that it changes the mindset of those they are condemning? Or does it make those they are condemning more determined to make their point?
    I find the whole “condemnation” school of politics utterly nauseating and phoney. Whingy, whiney 2 bit politicians parroting the same old words with their put on faces of sincerity.

  • Pete Baker
  • Donald Fraser

    Socaire – keep taking the tablets you mentalist.

  • Donald Fraser

    Great one lads. Another proud blow for Irish ‘freedom’. Utter fucking scum. I hope and pray that you are all hoovered up by the PSNI/M15/M16/Gardai/Army and dumped in Maghaberry for the rest of your natural lives.

  • Donald Fraser

    It’s called being a normal, civilised human being. When you’ve pond-life attempting to justify fascist murder in a twenty-first century democracy then, tiresome and trite as it may be, you HAVE to go to the trouble of saying the self-evident, namely that fascist murder is wrong and should be condemned. Squirrel-brained bog savages like Connolly can barely spell ‘the politics of condemnation’ never mind even understand what it means. He no more ‘has a point’ than he has a brain, a soul or a life. He’s a stupid, fat, ignorant cunt – pure and simple.

  • Munsterview

    Careful : you could be dissing some future assemble government ministers, after all there is a clear, well trodden path, from the bomb to assembly cabinet and Westminster seats.

    I seem to recall a few hysterical abusive voices like yours back then too when that journey was underway. They may have been more articulate and more expressive ( which would not be very difficult ) but the message was the very same.

    Expletives did not work back then and will not work now! However do feel free to continue, those involved are no doubt texting your little gems to each other and their supporters as proof of the effect they are having !

  • Damian O’Loan

    There are two questions there that it’s important not to confuse, as is the aim or mistake of Mr Connolly.

    First is the expression of an elected representative’s position on the event or action – so you know what you’re voting for. Secondly, is the leadership role or explaining why it is wrong or right.

    Donald Fraser, like most people, finds it self-evident that these attacks are wrong. Democratically, that makes them wrong. Since we live in a society that prefers absolutism to consequentialism, it usually helps when members of the clergy express their view. But clearly not everyone shares the view that these attacks are wrong. all the time. So the second part is necessary.

    As regards leadership, then, I agree with you that these glib condemnations using the same language each time lose their effect. Better for example to say, as if often done, this is not only wrong, but counter-productive in the search for a united Ireland.

    But Connolly, like others before him, does neither. Like others, he hasn’t the integrity to say that he thinks it is acceptable because he thinks it serves to bring a united Ireland closer. It’s important to note that one doesn’t cancel the other out – he’s doubly wrong in that regard. It’s revealed in his inaccurate analysis following the astonishing failure to condemn.

  • Lamh Dearg firstly, U mentioned the GFA….Do U not realise that the St.Andrews and Hillsboragh Agreements ended the GFA?

    Anyhow, as 4 majorities etc…I do accept that Loyalists feel they have a majority for keeping the Six Counties within the Union…..But do U not see the corruption of real democracy that the Northern has been and continues to be?

    Unionist have been promised a veto over Irish National rights and that is both immoral and illegal under international law! It matters not what the London, Dublin and Stormont Governments think because they all have contributed towards renewed conflict on this small island……By pretending that the GFA and other Agreements will end armed resistance to partition and occcupation.

    Strong promises were made by PSF about a British Withdrawal etc and nothing near that has came about…Hence renewed armed actions and whether we all issues statements of condemnations or not – attempted bombings such as the one in Kilkeel are inevitable.

  • Damian O’Loan

    “Do U not realise that the St.Andrews and Hillsboragh Agreements ended the GFA?”

    You’ll find both the NI Act 1998 and the NI (St Andrew’s Agreement Act) 2006 remain on the statute books, the former being much more important than the latter.

    “Unionist have been promised a veto over Irish National rights and that is both immoral and illegal under international law!”

    This is a gross misrepresentation of the principle of consent, which offers unionists nothing it doesn’t offer republicans, i.e. a framework to make their case convincingly.

    “Strong promises were made by PSF about a British Withdrawal etc and nothing near that has came about…Hence renewed armed actions and whether we all issues statements of condemnations or not – attempted bombings such as the one in Kilkeel are inevitable.”

    For someone so fond of the 800 years line, you’d think 12 years would be quite an acceptable wait. You should know that long timeframes are always part of victories as a former combatant.

    When you say “inevitable”, I presume you forgot to mention ‘inexcusable and counter-productive’?

  • old school

    Haha Munsterview. I’ve left very strict instructions that if I ever take the route of Mc Guinness or Adams into the role of a puppet minister, that I give permission to any soul to put a bullet in my head. I’m prepared to put it in writing.

  • old school

    Don’t even joke about it!!! Time will show, when MMcG is first minister and assuming they have one or more in the Dail, Ireland will have moved closer together and the path will be clear for all, even the most blinkered to see.

    MV

    I think Mr Faser is nothing more than a fascist troll. You know the rule: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

  • lamhdearg

    A R “But do U not see the corruption of real democracy that the Northern has been and continues to be?” no A R i don’t, the one island one nation veiw of ireland that irish nationalism puts out as the only true way is just wrong, if it where the only way there would be no country called scotland, and yes they may be in union with england but that union can be broken at any time should the people of scotland want it. I and many others do not want a 32 county republic and killing some of us will not change that.

  • Donald Fraser

    The (obvious) difference Munster is that now the fascist scum have negligible support (thereby of course confirming them as even more fascist than their Shinner precursors) and are carrying out acts of violence in the face of the explicit will of the Irish people as a democratic whole. If the dissident muck-munchers want to text my comments to one another in order to provide justification to one another for their continuing ‘campaign’ then that’s a matter for them. My job is to ridicule, confront and abuse – it’s for the forces of law and order throughout the island to put these animals behind bars.

    (Glad by the way you’ve managed a post without a breathless, exhaustive and uninvited history of your education to date. It was becoming a bit of a tiresome signature flourish.)

    Sorry you think I’m a fascist Pippakin – not sure how/why you’ve come to that erroneous conclusion.

  • Rory Carr

    Since this Donald Fraser fellow seems not to have a clue as to exactly what a fascist might be other than a nasty pejorative term to fling at all he feels aggrieved with it is no wonder that he feels a little confused when Pippakin suggests that he might be a fascist troll himself.

    I wouldn’t know whether he is a fascist or not, but then it seems, neither would he.

  • Donald Fraser

    Just a short definition to help you Rory, there’s a good chap (I used Wikipedia because I’m working at the moment and have, frankly, better things to do)

    “Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy. Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined left-wing and right-wing political views, but it gravitated to the political right in the early 1920s. Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum. Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. They advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists reject and resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists’ nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated. They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and a threat to the nation. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.”

    A modicum of education strikes me as a fairly sensible pre-requisite to posting on this site. Don’t bother if you don’t have it (and no, that’s not an invitiation to provide a Munster-style curriculum vitae).

  • Donald Fraser

    Fascists also suppress free speech and treat dissent as a crime.

    There is nothing wrong with being a dissenter, the problem is not with dissent. The problem is with the violence that is sometimes, and not always correctly, associated with dissent. If you seek to prevent free speech you are actually encouraging violent reaction to perceived injustice.

    Regardless, if you feel you are not a fascist, I apologise: You are just a troll.

  • Rory Carr

    Quoting from your Wikipedia entry above, Donald, that:

    Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.

    one might be tempted to consider that your assertion in reply to Munsterview that:

    [The dissidents and indeed Ardoyne people as a whole]…are carrying out acts of violence in the face of the explicit will of the Irish people as a democratic whole. comes uncomfortably close with its insistence that you alone perceive the true will of the Irish people as a whole.

    But I would not contend that your angry, explosive and sexually offensive language alone implies that you are a fascist since attributes generally associated with fascists is not enough alone to label one a fascist – simply dressing up in black leather doesn’t do it. As Wikipedia correctly notes the main characteristic of fascism is its corporatist determination whereby, “Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.” Without such perspectives, whatever it may look like, it ain’t fascist.

    Now I have no idea whether or not you espouse corporatist ideology (though it wouldn’t surprise me in the least) but I certainly know that, whatever their many differences with my own stance, neither do any of the dissident republican groups.

    Besides which, when all is said and done, besides being extremely naive, it is a grave error to go flinging the “fascist” slur around nilly-willy at all and sundry who do not meet with your approval; it confuses people and implies that you wouldn’t recognise the real thing until it was much too late.

  • Munsterview

    You are the one that alleged I had a chip in my shoulder regarding university education; unfortunately to let such tripe go unanswered is to concede an argument by default, irrespective of the ‘feeding trolls’ rule.

    As to playing the game, your idea of this is to nail the ball to the pitch and kick the goalposts all over the field. Any reasonable person can see just how many times you have moved the goal posts in this thread alone.

    Whether this arise from argumentative perversity or intellectual incapacity to develop a focussed response is immaterial, I merely note the fact in passing.

    Rant all you will : there is a reason why McGuiness, Kelly and co are sitting at a Cabinet table and your kind are catcalling from the sidelines.

    Enough said!

  • Munsterview

    So the man can google…… it is a start of sorts I suppose !

  • Rory Carr

    “Fascists also suppress free speech and treat dissent as a crime.”

    Very true, Pippakin, but be careful – it does not follow that a government that supresses free speech and treats dissent as a crime is fascist otherwise we would regard Henry VIII as facsist and that would just be silly and of course both the Irish and British governments have notoriously supressed free speech and been intolerant of dissent from republicans in our recent past but, however much one might dislike them and howver tempting it might seem it would be juvenile and just plain wrong to classify the Thatcher Tory government or Fine Gael-Labour coalition as fascist.

    A zebra may look like a horse but a painted horse must not be called a zebra.

  • Munsterview

    Concurred!

  • Rory Carr

    At my heels again, and in ‘teacher’ mode, how kind.

    The difference between the fascist/communist states and our own, on both sides, is that dissent flourishes, even whilst in some cases suppressed. This is not because the dissenters are so strong or so devoted. It is because dissent within peaceful parameters is allowed.

    Thanks for the horse thing. I like horses, as I mentioned in the little blog…

  • Donald Fraser

    Christ – what a tedious bunch of low horsepower pedants you are.

    “Quoting from your Wikipedia entry above, Donald, that:

    Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.

    one might be tempted to consider that your assertion in reply to Munsterview that:

    [The dissidents and indeed Ardoyne people as a whole]…are carrying out acts of violence in the face of the explicit will of the Irish people as a democratic whole. comes uncomfortably close with its insistence that you alone perceive the true will of the Irish people as a whole.”

    How THE FUCK do you work that out? There’s a wealth of incontrovertible electoral and other evidence demonstrating (beyond even the specious witterings of you muppets) what the current true will of the Irish people is on the question of the use of violence for political ends. I’m merely re-stating it.

    “But I would not contend that your angry, explosive and sexually offensive language alone implies that you are a fascist since attributes generally associated with fascists is not enough alone to label one a fascist – simply dressing up in black leather doesn’t do it. As Wikipedia correctly notes the main characteristic of fascism is its corporatist determination…..”

    Where does it say that precisely? That THE MAIN characteristic of fascism is its corporatist determination? It doesn’t (funnily enough). You just made that bit up.

    “…..whereby, “Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.” Without such perspectives, whatever it may look like, it ain’t fascist.”

    Says who? You? But we’ve already established that you’re a liar.

    Robert O. Paxton’s definition (as opposed to your “I’ll say whatever I think will bale me out of a hole” definition) is probably perfectly apposite for present purposes “A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion”

    Sounds like a fairly accurate description of the dissident untermenschen to me. But then, what do I know?

  • Donald Fraser

    “A zebra may look like a horse but a painted horse must not be called a zebra.”

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!! Priceless. Take you long to come up with that? You should trademark it. No, really, you shouldn’t. I’ve heard more insightful analyses fall from my six year old’s lips.

  • joeCanuck

    Guy from Harlem, NY, dies. When he gets to Heaven he says to God, “Something always puzzled me; Is a zebra white with black stripes or black with white stripes?”
    God says “You are what you are”.
    Guy meets with a friend and tells him what happened. His friend says “Well then, it’s white with black stripes”.
    How do you know says the guy.
    Well, his friend says, “if it was black with white stripes, God would have said “Yo is what yo is”.

  • Donald Fraser

    A truly pointless piece of unfunny racist nonsense. Thanks for wasting fifty seconds of my life.

  • Alan Maskey

    Girls: Any chance of getting back on track. Whilst I do not get put out by your waste of bandwidth, I am sure the moderators will.
    As a bridge building exercise, in the Spirit of both Gerry Adams and St Francis: the dissidents can see where your priorities lie (Narcissus anyone?) and they will move on accordingly.

    Donald: I hope you are more civil to your 6 year old, who is at a formative age.

  • joeCanuck

    Nothing racist about it. I did not say anything about race. I said a guy from Harlem. It has become quite gentrified in places. Bill Clinton has a residence/office there.

  • Donald Fraser

    Of course I am Maskey – she’s a delight and I treat her accordingly.

  • Munsterview

    The man can not only google…… he has someone who can explain what it all means….. I am impressed!

  • Munsterview

    Ah the penny drops!…….. she is the one who has been helping you with your political arguments ?

  • wee buns

    MV
    she is the reason he has begun to be cognizant.

    Freisin go bhfága Dia agam thú, for your earlier address on the subject of language and what is cherished.

  • Bongo

    Depressing reading. Despite the valuable service Slugger offers, perhaps there are times when we’d be better served with the withholding of scurrilous, hate soaked comments supporting attempted murder of an innocent young woman. Just a thought.

  • Hard hat

    6 years old, around the same age age the toddler strapped into a bomb-laden car in Kilkeel. It defies belief that anyone with a conscience could defend this. ArdEoin Republican – you know I am not your greatest fan, but surely this is beneath you? “However, she too needs to realise that she represents British policing in Ireland and as such, she’s regretably a target!”
    Just to be clear – is this a continuation of the political war? If the security forces engage and kill some of these heroes on active service, will they be murder victims or casualties of war?

  • mark

    Does your six yr old answer some of your posts ?

  • Munsterview

    Brid, leat fein, Buiochas !

  • Stephen

    Of course Good Friday and the SAA are more legitimate! The 1916 proclamation was made by a group of 12(or 16?not a lot anyway) poets, led by the buck-eejit Patrick Pearse, whilst the 1919 Declaration was pronounced by a splinter group elected on an anti-incumbent wave sparked by British idiocy.

    The GFA, meanwhile, recieved a populist and landslide raitification unmatched by either Easter or the 1919 Declaration. Justify yourself, please.

    And before you suggest anything, I’m republican. At least as much as you are.

  • Munsterview

    So dissidenting was allowed ?

    Why then did I spend almost a quarter of a century censored for appearing on radio, tv and even more insidiously, blacklisted from prizes at any literary festivals an receipt of government grants.

    If I or others like me got a prize and a platform then the festival organizers got reduced or no funding the following year. No letters or instructions to be discovered under the FOA about this either, all parties knew how the system worked…….. and worked it!

    Not either that I used my literary standing, such as it was, for political polemic, I often had cultural friends for years who were quite surprised of my politics, just as business friends were, when they eventually found out.

    But then again as I have repeatedly said then and since, censorship was always more protecting the Brown Envelope Brigade from open criticism by the likes of myself than it ever was about dealing with ‘The Boys Of The Old Brigade !’

  • Damian O’Loan

    Strange that after all that censorship you choose to use a pseudonym. Perhaps it would explain the incessant, irrelevant autobiography though..

  • Munsterview

    I had been reading slugger for years, I came on for one specific reason, I had not intended back then continuing. However that aside, had I intended continuing I would have still used the same method of contribution.

    Just as I did not mix polemic politics with general cultural or social events, I use a pseudonym here as it gives me the freedom to persue or deal with political matters from my own personal perspective, without having to adhere to a party line or defend a particular position.

    I am now out of the kitchen and I do not stir the pot for the sake of it or tell the cooks there how to do their job. If I have any influnce these days, it is because I still play the game by the rules : senior people discussing sensitive matters or concerns can only do so in a situation where discression is a given. Is that so hard to understand?

    As to the “……..’insessant, irrelevant autobiograbhical thought etc…..” I cite my own personal direct experience only where I need to ground an argument or provide background for an obversation.

    In the absence of this, my contributions would then be just like so much yours, openions without foccus, coherence and, as is frequently the case, seemingly pointless save as a vehicle for a stream of crudeties and vulgarisms for their own sake.

    The old maxim of ‘Contra factum non est argumetur’ seem lost on you!

  • JJ malloy

    Oh boy, you have got everyone worked up, including yourself.

    I don’t think these people are fascists, but just idiots who belong to a cult of violence. Their claim to represent the true, uncomprimised spirit of Ireland is just an attempt to justify their sad and destructive existence. They aren’t much better than the Islamists.