Adams ordered McConville execution, says ex-IRA leader…

THIS voice from beyond the grave was widely expected, yet the claims are no less diminished for all that. The words of former IRA commander Brendan Hughes, pictured left with Gerry Adams:

There was only one man who gave the order for that woman to be executed… That man is now the head of Sinn Fein. I did not give the order to execute that woman — he did. And yet he went to see [Jean McConville’s] kids to promise an investigation into her death.

And making a mockery of Adams’ claims never to have been in the IRA, Hughes said:

I never carried out a major [IRA] operation without the okay or the order from Gerry [Adams]. And for him to sit in his plush office in Westminster or Stormont or wherever and deny it, I mean it’s like Hitler denying that there was ever a Holocaust.”

Given Hughes’ standing within republicanism, these are claims that Adams – who carried Hughes’ coffin not so long ago – will find hard to dismiss.

  • Brian MacAodh

    As a nationalist who hears comments like that a decent amount, I have to agree. Iraq and Afganistan have f all to do with N Ireland.

  • Munsterview

    Allas,

    I will give a considered response to your analysis as sometime tonight, it deserves that.

    I considered many of the points that you raised not for the peace process but around the time of the 69/70’s split when I discussed these things for a whole evening and well into the night with two good to good and late comrades who wanted me to stay with the Sticks, one who died defending miners rights in Tipperary and the other who was killed by a former comrade in circumstances that foreshadowed the Costello/Goulding armed clash.

    I did not come to this business yesterday my Great grandfather and his two cousins were out in 67 and the two cousins were central to the Fenian Movement in their respective areas. One later became an M.P. and the son of another an M.P. also, the issues you raise were being discussed inside my extended family and part of it’s politic as far back as the end of the 19th, start of the 20th century.

    The roots of those Old Fenians went right back, not to ’98, but all the way to the Desmond Rebellion, they were central to that and at the end of the Desmond Rebellion/ Elizabethan Wars Our People and O.Sullivan Beara’s were the only two Southern families refused a pardon. Elizabethan Commanders and Officials consider our respective families opposition to Crown interests in Ireland implacable.

    One of the problems here is that any debate such this is taking place in a vacuum. It is only when what was discussed at that meeting that Adams/Twoomey et al attended in England, what was discussed at the meetings with Wilson in Dr.John O’Connell’s house, and what was on the table for the early seventies treaty/ceasefire that broke down when after a weekend’s stalemate a convoy of people and their lorry loads of household effects attempted to leave where they were held to take up possession of their houses, ( Anyone remember that ?) that things can be contextualized from Republican viewpoint.

    It is only when background discussions and agreements with the Brits are known that the decisions and actions of the Provo Leadership can be put into context. I am not an unconditional supporter of the current Republican Leadership, while in general I supported the peace process ( and still do ) I was another of the ‘awkward squad’ in the South, most of whom were sidelined with scant ceremony irrespective of their service . I came on this site specifically to support Ms.Cahill and anybody reading my extensive postings from then can see that I did not pull my punches.

    I deliberately stayed out of this particular debate to see what developed. One central issue not addressed and all else follows from that; did the Irish Republican Army have

    a) a right to exist and

    b) to be involved in an armed struggle ?.

    If the answer is yes, then a certain logic follows from that and likewise if the answer is no. These stands must frame the discussion and there is no middle ground not can there be any grey areas here.

  • John O’Connell

    Munsterview

    Did the IRA have a right to exist? Yes, if you believe in an eye for an eye response. It has no validity under Jesus Christ.

    To be involved in armed struggle? The tactical use of human suffering is objectively evil and can only be used by those who have low empahty for other’s suffering. It is, despite the niceness that seems to flow from the title “armed struggle”, cosy wee thing, and noble ideal, it is a strategy of the Old Testament.

    The above might be a Christian answer to your phoney-profound meanderings.

  • granni trixie

    Munsterfiew: I take it from what you say that you have not had to live through the misery of the Troubles in NI but as person who has can I tell you the answer is unambiguously, no.

    Physical force was no way to bring about necessary reforms – it created more problems then it solved. The case of Mrs McConville for instance shows what kind of rough justice replaced the RUC. I know who I’d have taken my chances with.

    Besides,surely its obvious by now that the IRA’s tactics didnt work?

  • Seosamh913

    John O’Connell

    Let’s keep this particular discussion political if we can please. After all, for people of sense and moral normality, Jesus Christ has no validity at all. When the time comes for phoney profundity discussions, we can talk all day about the alleged Christ, trust me.

  • John O’Connell

    SEosamh913

    After all, for people of sense and moral normality, Jesus Christ has no validity at all.

    That’s just perversion, Seosamh, and I think you know it. It’s either Jesus Christ or an eye for an eye, which is the basis of this discussion. Like it or lump it. It is either good or evil. Trying to absolve yourself of your evil while declaring Christ alleged is itself profoundly evil. But really I think you’re just confused.

  • Munsterview

    John

    some weeks ago I on another posting I took you up on the Christian issue any tried to engage with you purely within New Testament references regarding the use of force and violence. You refused to come out to play despite continuing to contribute on other issues.

    Fine, your right and privilege but do not expect me to concern my self with your comments again, they have ceased to matter to me!

  • Seosamh913

    John

    Entirely unconfused about my own position, thanks. If we took the alleged Nazarene’s advice for example we’d be blessing those which persecute us, a positively immoral teaching.

    I would invite you to evidence the existence of this figure please.

  • John O’Connell

    Munsterview

    You asked me questions that relied on a presupposition that even you denied existed, so far as I recall. I don’t know what it was now. But you’re entitled to run scared in a tantrum.

    Seosamh

    WE might make the world better by blessing those who persecute us rather than killing them.

    I think you’re an honest republican by the way, not afraid to worship the Antichrist Gerry ADams rather than Jesus. I offer no evidence but I’m sure there won’t be any Churches to Gerry Adams in 20 years time never mind 2000.

  • wee buns

    Is it compulsary to feed the religious monomaniac comments? Was rather hoping this thread would not be derailed.

  • John O’Connell

    wee buns

    That’s no way to refer to Jesus.

  • Brian MacAodh

    I really believe that had the IRA had stopped their campaign after Stormont fell, they would have been looked at today as heroes-while sparing the province 2 decades of strife.

  • John O’Connell

    Brian

    Clearly you haven’t heard of the SDLP and the civil rights who would have been the real heroes had the Troubles ended in 1972. The reason the Troubles persisted was to get IRA personnel into positions of prominence and to remove the SDLP from those posistions. That is at least how it seems now.

  • Seosamh913

    John O’Connell

    You can go blessing pederast priests and islamofascist death cult caliphatists in the name of your religion until you’re blue in the face for all I care, just don’t go trying to persuade me that to do so is moral. Deal ?

  • John O’Connell

    Clearly, you’re irrational SEosamh.

  • Brian MacAodh

    I said “looked at” as heroes-romantic image of gunmen defending the Catholic “ghettos” and all that. Of course some of the most courageous of all throughout the troubles were the Civil Rights marchers.

    Most IRA men did not join up to get into position of prominence, they truly believed that it was the only solution-especially in the early days after Bloody Sunday and later the British governments surrender to the Unionist strikers of 1974.

  • Munsterview

    Wee b……. thanks for ref. to Ber. already printed off

    Pip…… C.S.A. in no go areas; wherever society is in turmoil all sorts of abnormal behavior manifests and some of it receive a toleration that it otherwise would not be accorded. I would be very surprised when studies become available if the figures for the North generally do not exceed the South in compatible sectors of society. The fact that it occurred had little to do with who ran these areas per se.

    Republican Civil War ? There were two main disagreements, the first concerned whether the Armed Resistance still had a part to play in the ongoing Republican Struggle. Most felt that it had not. Those who did left and continued as before. There were no gun battles on the streets about this or any other issues. That is not to say there were not some bad feelings or recriminations about the decisions.

    The second concerned the tactics being follower through Sinn Fein to achieve Republican objectives. Many experienced Southern Republicans had doubts about policies and tactics being followed , but never the less we went along and when proved right, just ceased to be active. Every-time somebody in the South like Christie Burke walked so did a lot more who had a deep respect for people like him and their service. Nothing more complicated than that.

  • Munsterview

    I had heard that the north had a greater degree of incest but have seen no evidence to support that. I am sorry but in a no go area, the victims could not get help, unless it was the help of PIRA or loyalist, and if the perpetrator was one of them or protected by them, well you see where this goes. It does make a difference, it makes a very great difference and we must all do our best to ensure it never happens again. If it needs to be said, I am not excusing the authorities who may well, subject to investigations, be found to have been complicit in the cover up of some abuse cases.

    I had heard about the civil war, pretty much what you have said, except for the dead bodies of course.

  • Munsterview

    Sorry! bloody broadband!

    Last sentence ‘dropped’ again! it was: Thanks for answering.

  • granni trixie

    Around the early 70s over a period of 2 years when he gave me a lift to work, I got to know an NSPCC inspector who covered W. Belfast. He told me that you would not believe the extent of incest he came across in his work. I knew little about abuse and hardly knew what he meant at the time.

    Anecdotal evidence only but conversations with him resonates with themes in public talk today.

  • lamhdearg

    granni trix
    No doubt not just west belfast, lets hope if people keep taking about it thing will change.

  • grannie trixie

    And we and the authorities ignored it. I hope we are in continuing to keep the subject in the limelight it will force the authorities to act, and who knows it may enable some to look at their behaviour and dislike what they see.

  • granni trixie

    To be fair Pip, donversations with my friend in the NSPCC suggests that he was definately not ignoring what he came across.

  • grannie trixie

    No, and I should not have made such a sweeping statement. I get so angry!

    I wonder though, in the circumstances of the time, how much success he had.

  • granni trixie

    Pip: its one of those things we shall never know but what it does suggest is that there wre signs of abuse behind the scenes coming to the surface.
    I suppose incest in particulr was unthinkable – think of the sensitivites social services and NSPCC etc had to deal with – incest can divide I imagine whole families. Also ofcourse it was only in the mid 60s that the profession of trained social workers emerged.

    I myself did not know who to turn to as a child in domestic violence situation so that is why,rightly or wrongly, I walked into a children’s home where I stayed for many years.

  • andnowwhat

    Jaysus. this thread’s heading down the tubes!

  • granni trixie

    You are right about incest splitting up families. I knew of cases where the victim was thrown out of the family for reporting the matter, and this was in London. It must have been so much worse in the north.

    I am not entirely convinced by the ‘trained social workers’. Personally I believe the best training a social worker can have is having raised a family themselves. In my opinion it is no job for college kids, however well supervised.

    I sympathise with you regarding your upbringing. You know in some ways my Mother had a better time. Oh it was brutal, but her Father visited, and because he did she and her sisters were safer than others, and most importantly the family link was maintained. A lot, maybe most of the students in those schools had no family left when they left school they were on their own. It must have been traumatic.

  • granni trixie

    Thanks Pip.