“This poll shows that overwhelming community confidence has been firmly established..”

As Brian has mentioned, the NIO, and Northern Ireland Secretary of State Shaun Woodward, have weighed in to the campaign against the UUP with another of their famous surveys. But is it 75%? 73%? Or, as the BBC reports, 68% in favour? And was there a timescale involved for that support? And is it the case that “In terms of overall support for the agreement to transfer policing and justice powers to the Executive at Stormont, 67% were in support and 13% opposed.” I could point out that their last published survey indicated 74% in favour of that transfer at some time. Not that we can compare the findings to any of their previous offerings propaganda because, to date, there’s even fewer details on this poll than any of the others. Where, for example, are the figures for the other parties? Will we see the figures for those who indicated their support for the DUP? Wouldn’t it be interesting to see how many of those surveyed indicated support for the TUV? Was anyone asked? A margin of error would be nice, Shaun… Adds See also the post on the OFMDFM poll.

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  • alan56

    Overt and unsubtle government spin.. I suspect even SF and DUP will be embarrased as this will probably backfire

  • Brian Walker

    Good job Slugger is a blog and not tablets of stone.. I lifted the figures from two Irish Times snaps appearing suggestively together and didn’t commit myself to any great conclusions, thank God. Thanks for filling the story out, Pete. As you say, it’s a pretty silly piece of propaganda without more details – as I’m sure the Irish Times team wil go on to point out.

  • But is it 75%? 73%?

    I heard it was 105%… “polling” reminiscent of the calculation of turnouts in the good ole USSR.

  • Pete,

    There is a big Stars and Stripes elephant sitting in the funny but interesting little room marked Ulster politics and it would also be nice to see a weency little discussion on how it is that the leaders of the ‘free’ world have to tell the partners of the prospective British government how to behave in Ulster and the obvious embarassment this constitutes for the Tories.

    It has been clear for some time that many (including your goodself) are in denial about the extent and relevance of Yankee involvment in Ulster’s affairs, but leaving ideology aside for a moment surely this is the very stuff of polically anorakery that is Slugger’s lifeblood?

  • Turgon

    Brian Walker,
    You could always try updating your blog to demonstrate the fact that you were indeed talking nonsense and that Pete has demonstrated it. Then again why bother, your propoganda is normally so utterly dishonest that correcting it would be a major departure from your usual position.

  • joeCanuck

    Paucity of details of how this poll was done and utter confusion over the results; 75% or 67% for example? Agree with Alan, it’s clearly just spin.
    Remember what the “da” said in The Jerk; don’t trust whitey.

  • Pete Baker

    Brian

    “Good job Slugger is a blog and not tablets of stone..”

    Indeed ;o)

    Although the Irish Times, et al, should have been asking the same questions.

    Turgon

    Play the ball!

    MU

    On the latest example of the “big Stars and Stripes elephant”…

    You obviously missed my post last night?

    And as for being in denial about US involvement here…

    You should have a word with Gerry!

    *Cuckoo* *Cuckoo*

  • Assuming it’s all a dreadful CIA-MI5-Nationalist-DUP inspired fix then what the poll tell us is that the governments (3 in all ) expect the UUP to behave responsibly and if its not a fix then its the plain people of Ulster that want them to behave responsibly.

    Either way its not good for the UUP or the Tories.

    Someone needs to throw the isolated, politically exposed and diminutive Reginald a diminutive fig leaf befor he embarasses himself and his Tory pals further.

  • Pete,

    your post last night was less a fair review of the significance of said elephant but rather an elevation of the views of one of those, the diminutive Reginald, who is trying his hardest to avoid being squashed by it.

  • ding dong

    Moderate Unionist, the UUP don’t care what their tory partners think in all of this. Cameron was out of the blocks far too fast on the Hillsborough Agreement and clearly didn’t consult them, so the UUs don’t really care what he thinks either. The UUs will play the “Euro & Westmnister deal only” card and carry on –

    And so they should, there is nothing in this either way for the UUs. So why not become the focus of everyone’s attention.

    Maybe there are several clever wee devices in the DUP camp and in the face of less than unanimous Unionist support maybe the snowmen will play their joker a “coup de grace on Robinson”

    Could all be very interesting but probably a damp squib.

  • The north has always been plagued by propaganda so what is new here?

    New Labour have always been spin over substance so what is new there?

    At lease it not another ‘good day to bury bad news’
    day.

    I cannot see the point in this…

  • dd,

    “Moderate Unionist, the UUP don’t care what their tory partners think in all of this”

    Well perhaps, but project UCUNF looks a gonner as the Tories will be in an alliance with an anti-agreement party – that cannot be be sustainable. Labour will be all over this like a rash.

  • alan56

    Is it just possible that the govt and dup are concerned that the ‘snowmen’ are having second thoughts and might not walk through the lobby?

  • joeCanuck

    Not much point at all pippakin. Just stiffening Robinson’s spine and twisting Empey’s arm.
    There has been a lot of backtracking recently and Sir Reg might do so too; not that he’s needed.

  • Alias

    “It has been clear for some time that many (including your goodself) are in denial about the extent and relevance of Yankee involvment in Ulster’s affairs, but leaving ideology aside for a moment surely this is the very stuff of polically anorakery that is Slugger’s lifeblood?” – Moderate Unionist

    In which case, it is a better position to be an ‘anorak’ observing stings being pulled by ‘non-indigenous’ players than it is to be an indigenous puppet being pulled by them.

  • ding dong

    Mod Un

    Why are you peddling the line/lie that by not supporting the devolution of P&J the UUP suddenly become some sort of “anti Agreement” party.

    Not supporting the introduction of further powers to a dysfunctional executive until it is sorted is actually pro agreement not to say sensible – the UUPs want the executive to work and work effectively, not limp on ignoring the fact the current system is holed below the water line.

    If Cameron had any wit and was truly interested in the Union – with his selfish strategic interest etc – then he would ditch the rubbish bi partisan approach that has enbale New Labour to continue to dress failure up as success

  • Alias

    It is important to the British state that the Shinners lead their community to endorse and support its security forces, whereas the Shinners are trying to spin the line that the British state is supporting a Shinner agenda rather than the other way around.

  • ding dong,

    “Why are you peddling the line/lie that by not supporting the devolution of P&J the UUP suddenly become some sort of “anti Agreement” party. ”

    The Hillsborough deal puts in place the last part of the GFA/STA and those trying to block it, by voting against it, are reasonably called anti-agreement even in these days of spin.

    The UUP are now an embarassing shambles and seem now intent on embarassing their Tory partners. It would be very interesting to hear what John Major has to say about his party’s choice of friends who are engaged in trying to wreck all his and others good work.

  • alan56

    MU
    You are joining in the spin. If govt,SF DUP et al were so concerned about UCUNF support it might just have been an idea to include them in the negotiations, not just a few vague chats on the edge of the negotiations proper. Is the great Robbo getting lonely?

  • ding dong

    Mod Un

    The Belfast Agreement was about running Northern ireland, it wasn’t about specific pieces of some bizarre SF/NIO/DUP jigsaw.

    No one is saying that P&J shouldn’t be ultimately devolved but what is being said, and quiet rightly, if they can’t cope with what they have why give them more?

    THe use of emotional language, anti agreement, blackmail – you won’t get the £800 million or shroud waving – the dissidents will grow because you don’t support devolving P&J – is total nonsense. Currenly those cheerleading for a deal tomorrow have completely failed to argue why P&J should be devolved now – to a dysfunctional Executive.

    Give me a few lines on why, tomorrow, P&J should be devolved.

    In your answer point out the positive work this executive have done so far, highlight how the executive have made a positive contribution to the lives of the people of Northern ireland and detail how where the evidence is for your optimism, that this Executive will do better with P&J.

    even in all their own documents the DUP accept that the executive is dysfunctional – SF still refuses to clear executive papers and as for transparency – just remind us all what has been agreed on parades? that’s right only the Orange Order have been shown that particular document!

    Come on, the only sensible and honest position, away from the hype and the crap – is to accept that on this occasion all the cheerleaders for progress have accepted the emporer has clothes –

    No He Doesn’t!! It’s a con job! Even the SDLP know it’s a con job but they don’t have the balls to vote No

  • Harry J

    even in all their own documents the DUP accept that the executive is dysfunctional …………..

    as if this new, anyone remember the farce that was the UUP/SDLP executive, remember the deputy first minister (mallon) even resigned …or did he?

  • ding dong

    No reason for it to continue Harry! and even less of a reason to give it more powers.

    Until the chattering classes stop whinging about the Executive and then supporting it when asked by the NIO, this crap will continue.

  • ding dong

    Time for the really important question –

    What are the Snowmen of the DUP saying? the UUP are really irrelevant in this if the Dodds etc of this world vote yes – so is all the clamber about the UUP position really a smoke screen and is the real problem not the DUP?

  • ding dong,

    Of course according to your rules for listing the advantages of the deal we should not mention ’emotional’ aspects like peace and political stability – thats a bit like asking what are the advantages of the motor car but excluding mentioning that it gets you from A to B very quickly in the answer.

    The arguements in favour of agreement will not interest you or you would not already have made up your mind but dont bother listening to me why not listen to what the Tory party, the UUP’s political partners are saying.

    But of course dont tell me – they have got it wrong as well – it’s just Wee headless Reg and his diminishing band that are calling it corectly. Oh and I nearly forgot, the TUV.

  • ding dong

    Thanks for confirming Mod U you have nothing to offer.

    At no stage did I suggest you can’t use the trite nonsense of the emotional “peace and stability” argument! you applied that to yourself but go ahead try it out but be warned the vast majority of the electorate want more than peace and stability, they want jobs, education, health – gov policies, strategies that deliver – you know the things real operating gov do by nature.

    The saddest thing for Northern ireland is that yet again no politician has made an argument for the devolution of policing and justice, we are supposed to accept it.

    finally Mod, your mind reading abilities are very poor, I am pro Agreement and in the unionist political areana have taken the brick bats for being so and I still am, I genuinely want this to work but I wont take arrogant lectures from the likes of you about whether I’ll listen to arguments or not.

    You were given your opportunity to make your case – you ran away proving that even the most moderate unionist can’t or won’t even attempt to justify the devolution of P&J at this stage.

    Thaks you have made my case very clearly

  • ding dong,

    the Tories, the Government of Ireland, the Government of Britian, the Government of the US, the SDLP, the DUP, SF, the Alliance Party, the PUP, the Green Party, FF, FG, the Irish Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and the UUPs own political colleagues have all called it wrong by being in favour of the deal and Headless Reg’s crazy bunch and the TUV have called it correctly.

    I see.

  • Garza

    MU stop setting up strawmen arguments, they will be blown done again and again.

    The TUV don’t want p&j devolved under any circumstances.
    The UUP want it devolved but wants Stormont to work efficiently before it handles such a great responsibility.

    Two completely different reasons.

    But I don’t think you will see sense due to your paranoia and obsession with the uup/tory link up that sees you post stuff about them in RSF threads and every other thread going? Are you a troll per chance?

  • Alias

    They’re all supporting a British state national security agenda whereas, ironically, the UUP isn’t – or, more accurately, its leader is opposed to the squalid means by which the British state is promoting its national security agenda in this instance whereas the others have no such moral or democratic qualms and simply follow protocol as directed.

  • Garza,

    straw men my arse – both the TUV and the UUP are against the deal.

  • Still haven’t heard the details of who carried out the research for NIO. The OFMDFM released research on similar theme of P&J in principle being accepted (on which most probably agree), carried out by Red Circle: company founded by Steven Lawther “a research and communications expert with a strong track record in delivering for clients. Steven is the former Head of Communications for the Scottish Labour Party.” An sure the NIO used quite different consultants for its research, and absolutely sure that there is no way the OFMDFM and NIO would have shared costs on the same research programme with two slightly different outcomes.

  • Garza

    [quote]Garza,

    straw men my arse – both the TUV and the UUP are against the deal.[/quote]

    Wow, gee you sure showed me, what a response [sarcasm ended].

  • bohereen

    But why do “they” want the UUP to vote for this if they don’t actually need the UUP votes to pass it?
    This is crazy.

  • ding dong

    Well done Mod U, you can list of a set of political parties of various sizes and complexities, now back to the question asked, why do you, repeat you, think devolving p&j to a dysfunctional executive is a good idea?

    You can use any arguement put up by anyone else but go give it a go – tell us why?

    And as bohereen says why all this pressure on the UUs – answer because the DUP MLAs don’t believe this is a good deal either and they won’t sign up without cover.

    AS for the Americans, the Irish and the mainland parties do you actually think any of them even know what the deal allegedly conculded at Hillsborough even means?

    Now for the real bombshell for the DUP snowmen, according to the politics show today the Orange Order haven’t approved anything, they are simply waiting to see what the legislation says – so Peter hasn’t even got Bobby Saulters and his crew on board.

    I’m glad Peter never tried to sell a house for me!

  • DerTer

    I know it’s probably futile but can I protest once again – on behalf of ‘once-a-day’ Sluggerites who have other things to do as well as read this blog – about having two threads on exactly the same topic. Dare I even propose a new site rule on this – comparable to ‘play the ball not the man’?

  • ding dong,

    ok here are a list of reasons for the UUP to vote yes. I’m sure you can now go through them all and tell me they are all not imnportant? But hey you did ask nicely.

    Peace:

    1)cuts off excuses to Republican dissers.
    2)progress has been made on parades

    Stability:

    1) Difficult to put deal together, very painful for Unionists to have SF near justice ministry, months of negotations wasted if deal falls.

    2) Incoming Government may have other priorities.

    International Reputation:

    Collapsing things is not good for investment, business like certainty.

    Cohesion at Stormont:

    1) Police and Justice has been the cause of much of the disagreement between SF and the DUP, solving tihs issue is itself a major step forward and should improve the overall atmosphere.

    2) It is to be welcomed that the (mainly) non aligned Alliance influence are involved this is an excellent example of the will to make things work.

  • ding dong

    Mod U apologises I was having a life last nite so been busy.

    1st – peace – bollocks – violent Irish republicanism has been with us for centuries and will continue, the legitimacy of the Stormont institutions has little, in fact no, bearing on dissident republicans – so get real

    progress on parades – bollocks – once the proposals are made public, your dissidents will, as republicans have done for centuries, revive the now dead parades controversies, begin “community defence” always a republican winner and a long hot summer predicted for all – only fools would reintroduce this dead issue but the DUPs did!

    2nd stability – because the DUPs wasted time on a crap deal is no reason to vote for it today or any day

    Incoming Gov? what’s that about – vote for a crap deal because Westminster don’t care about us – again really poor answer

    Cohesion at Stormont – again a real bollocks of an answer – if you had any political sense you would realise the disagreements between SF and DUP are about the fact that they don’t like each other, they don’t want to be together and that on all policy issues they are facing in opposite directions, added to this is the fact that the set up allows for no collective responsibility or executive control of ministers – aka Ruane – so the overall atmosphere will not improve and by the way its a government not a girl guide troop – atmosphere should be based on respect and ability not cosy feelings

    Welcome for the Alliance party welcome my arse, politics is about mandate and representing the people, setting out your stall, presenting it to the electorate and if you have any guts or decency then sticking by what you have said. On all counts the Alliance Party have no right to be involved and as seen last week – if anyone says boo to Ford he runs and cries – hardly a principled politician to stand up to SF and the DUP.

    So after marking you paper on reasons why there should be the devolution of policing and justice today your grade is an abysmal F minus

    try harder next time