“because politicians here aren’t grown up enough to take their own decisions”

As Mick mentioned, the DUP’s Sammy Wilson has identified the “contrived” nature of the current “crisis”. Which anything more than a cursory glance at the St Andrews agreement confirms. The Northern Ireland deputy First Minister, apparently, still believes that “commitments” were given then. Was it Ian junior again, Martin? Even you know that’s nonsense. But haven’t Sinn Féin demonstrated their bona fides? Apart from that mis-understanding over those good friends of NI Executive Minister, Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy, and Soca being “a front for the MI5..” And that’s without mentioning questions over a certain party leader’s current failing memory. Still, a Downing St spokesman is reportedly telling the BBC that – “Prime Ministers Gordon Brown and Brian Cowen are making progress in mediating talks between the DUP and Sinn Fein”. Which is fine. As for the title quote from Alliance Party leader David Ford, apparently they’re also not grown up enough not to threaten to throw their toys from the [political] pram when they can’t get what they want within the terms of their own “indigenous” deal.

, , , ,

  • aquifer

    The other first minister was behaving like the only minister and deserves whatever he gets back.

    Repartition might be the practical outworking of SFDUP ethnic apartheid but lets just have joint authority with the centre parties providing direct rule ministers.

  • percy

    Devolution of P&J is in the DUP manifesto

  • FitzjamesHorse

    must be frustrating for David Ford…….so close to a cabinet seat and a limo.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    Go back or go forward or park up altogether.

    Even every kind of a moron becomes bored parked up permanently.

    I would like to go forward but is there enough of us that hope to see a better future.

  • Pete,

    you are indeed spot on, but unfortunately being right is irrelevant if it is deemed by those yielding the power not to be expedient.

    Just like Trimble found out over decommissioning, if the British government decides to give it’s support, not to those loyal to state, but rather to those dedicated to destroying it, then you have to adapt your game.

    There is no point in Sammy losing his cool in public over SF summoning up a crisis when the two prime ministers are already sitting inside the gates trying to resolve it. This is back-foot negotiation and the Unionist people deserve better that their leaders being publically humiliated and coerced into making a deal.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    it doesnt really matter.
    THe GFA has been sold as two different things. Creative Ambiguity or if you prefer bare faced lies …and as long as the Peace Process is built on lies it cant hope to succed.
    The best that the Peace Process actually contributes is Peace…nothing mor or less.
    So long as nationalists/republicans see it as stepping stones…then they will always probe at the boundaries.
    And so long as the unionists see GFA as a barricade…..then they will always stall.
    That is built into the process……

  • percy

    Its worth asking why if P&J is in the DUP manifesto, are we having this endless delay?
    What does the oft-repeated phrase ( fableed) “community confidence” actually mean?
    silly questions?

  • Mick Fealty

    Of course it is percy. But, contrary to SF’s current line, there were preconditions.

  • tacapall

    THe GFA has been sold as two different things. Creative Ambiguity or if you prefer bare faced lies …and as long as the Peace Process is built on lies it cant hope to succed.
    Posted by FitzjamesHorse on Jan 25, 2010 @ 11:23 PM

    Spot on FitzjamesHorse, Maybe the best thing to do is bring the agreement to the European Courts and let the Judges decide and tell us all what the REAL agreement actually means from an impartial observers perspective.

  • Mrazik

    A plague on both their houses.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Spot on FitzjamesHorse, Maybe the best thing to do is bring the agreement to the European Courts and let the Judges decide and tell us all what the REAL agreement actually means from an impartial observers perspective.

    Being a republican, why would you accept the jurisdiction of a foreign court ?

  • Mick Fealty

    Well, if you follow the links above tacapall, you’ll find that even Martin can give you the answer to that particular inquiry, as you very well know…

  • percy

    ok so the precondition is “community confidence” ; however we’re finding out
    that what that actually means is a free pass on parading for the OO anywhere.

    Dunno bout you, but if marching down the road of somewhere you’re not welcome,
    is what you need “just to get it up”, there’s something wrong with you!

  • Mick Fealty

    Maybe that’s what it means… maybe something else… but whatever it is, it remains a pre-condition of the St Andrews Agreement…

  • Marcionite

    If all fails, I genuinely do think NI had the following options:

    repartition with voluntary resettlement grants

    beefed up powers for the new councils. Yes it would be a sectrarian cantonisation but at least each side would have control over it’s own territories. Think about it though, at first glance this may seem a travesty but imagine a council district where say the unionists had 80% control over, over time they would feel secure enough numerically to entertain a high degree of internal policy debate that we could see new localised non sectarian parties evolve to address local needs

    you may know my opines on the NI state and it’s sectarian nature if start up but paradoxically, it’d core weakness at the heart of it’s creation was that it didn’t have a sufficient degree of Protestantism that would have led to a sufficient comfort of developing new parties that all would have been unionist but have had competing left right idealogies. The northern State had too high a number of RCs to make them seem a sufficient threat hence the big tent Unionist party

    The Free State however was 90% RC therefore it felt safe enough to entertain the monolithic SF breaking up into FG and FG etc.

    Perhaps dividing NI into two substates , Bann East and West could be the key. Neither could seccede without the others permission

    if NI or a repartitioned NI was almost exclusively Unionist then it would be game over for any nationalism that remained. Then unionism would be safe and feel confident to break into left:right. After a few generations, there would no sense if being a Unionist as such. Then the two Irelands could begin to realise that each other is not an ogre and a constructive debate on unification could begin

  • tacapall

    Being a republican, why would you accept the jurisdiction of a foreign court ?
    Posted by Comrade Stalin on Jan 25, 2010 @ 11:38 PM

    Well we are talking about full stops and commas aren’t we ! It can always mean two thigs to apposing sides, and lets ask the European Court, well we’re all European citizens. We voted democratically to get into it, what about you.

    and Mick what do you mean

  • Mick Fealty

    Tacapall, this is what Martin was saying 18 months ago when they were still talking (ie just before the 154 days when SF went off on their unilateral break): http://url.ie/4rh3

    154 days when they could have been pushing the DUP on precisely what this confidence meant…

    A poor return for the way in which the DUP kept schtum over the Paul Quinn beating/murder (http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/we-cannot-allow-this-to-be-brushed-under-the-carpet/)…

  • Alias

    Being a Republican, you could not refuse to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ if a valid act of self-determination gave it authority over the Irish courts in the constitution (which it did).

    Incidentally, this is an interesting press release from the Shinners dated the day before the special Ard Fheis meeting in January 2007.

  • joeCanuck

    but whatever it is, it remains a pre-condition of the St Andrews Agreement

    Mick, Would that be the agreement that the Dup (depending on which side of their mouth they were talking out of), was the greatest thing since sliced bread (well it fixed all the things that were wrong with the GFA) or the agreement that was an agreement between the two Governments and which they, the DUP, never signed up to yet went into Power Sharing on the foot of.
    If the latter, they can hardly complain if the two Governments not complete it.

  • percy,

    the DUP sucessfully negotiated “community confidence” into the STA as both the devolution carrot to dangle just in front of the SF nose and then as the devolution stick to beat them acrosss the arse with by delaying it’s delivery.

    This was all very well as long as everybody played their part and SF would still be trying to get it’s teeth into that elusive root vegtable if the British government had not called time on the game. It appears now, that this disloyal intervention, has handed not only the carrot to SF but also presented them with the stick.

    Even the incoming, allegedly Unionist, Tory administration, hadnt the balls to stand up to SF and say tell them that the DUP had not agreed to any timescales and they would just have to wait until Unionism was ready.

    Of course this was all entirely predicatable, as Trimble would no doubt have told Robinson if the two had been on speaking terms and as anybody who has witnessed the behaviour of the British government over the last 30 years would have known.

    The DUP now look to be weak, divided and in disarray and they need to sell this (now inevitable?) retreat (deal) as their Dunkirk as the TUV (and probalby some in the UUP) tell us it is much more like Munich.

  • Mick Fealty


    That would also be the ‘indigenous deal’ that Gerry told us no one should interfere with… the facts have changed but only insofar as that ‘indigenous deal’ has become a liability to both its chief architects…

    Night all…

  • joeCanuck


    I guess they forgot to spit on their hands and shake on it.


  • tacapall

    The DUP now look to be weak, divided and in disarray and they need to sell this (now inevitable?) retreat (deal) as their Dunkirk as the TUV (and probalby some in the UUP) tell us it is much more like Munich.
    Posted by Moderate Unionist on Jan 26, 2010 @ 12:14 AM

    Well they are better off just getting it over with now, before the world see’s what their really like.

  • percy

    thanks moderate unionist
    we will if the marriage guidance counselling has been successful. tomorrow.

  • Pete Baker

    Some commenters seem to be forgetting the actual power-brokers in the deal.

    And their historical influence on certain players – “There is an endless debate about Sinn Fein and its ties to the IRA but what we all know for years is that there is no place in a democracy for a private army engaged in criminal activity.”

    *Cuckoo* *Cuckoo*

    And what was, and is, needed – “people will just have to be tolerant of that…”

  • Alias

    No nation will compromise on its right to self-determination, as “the actual power-brokers in the deal” are discovering in Iraq and elsewhere but that is one lesson they don’t want to learn from NI. The Americans guard their own sovereignty and would do well to assume that others value it just as highly. If neither of the two nations in NI valued their right to self-determination then there would be no need for elaborate constructions of creative ambiguity. The British would simply say to the Irish nation in that region “Give up your right to self-determination so that we can retain control of the disputed territory” rather than hoodwink them into formally renouncing that right while telling them that they are doing no such thing.

  • joeCanuck

    P&J devolution before end of March.
    Review of parading and the need for changes to existing Parades Commission will be held following this year’s parading season, late Sept/early Oct.

  • Part 1 of 2

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  • Part 2 of 2

    Now there is something in all of that for everyone, from the slowest to the quickest, for [i]everyone, Republican or otherwise*, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.[/i]

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    * even Imperialist Unionists bogged down in Old Mad Dog Revolutionary Religionist Dogmas?

  • joeCanuck


    Are you sure you’re not on the moon. Might be worthwhile doing a star check.

  • danielmoran

    percy msg 13 the phrase so beloved of Campbell and the other neanderthals, is conveniently elastic and doesn’t necessarily involve parades issue being resolved. It’s more of a device that the hardliners can use to delay P&J just out of malice against shinners, In the DUP, that is sufficient motivation. Saddos.

  • percy

    roger that daniel

  • harry

    all this crap about p&j & parades is just a smokescreen to take the heat of Gerry & Peter.also why do we want anyone in the executive to have control over these issues. Anytime a hard decision has to be made it is put out to consultation. When the current crap[crop] of mlas show they can look after what the have been elected for maybe then is the time to let them take a bit more responsibility. harry

  • Munsterview

    marcionite Jan 25 2010 @ 11.47

    An interesting connection, some points of contact but not a valid comparison. Anti-Conscription was one of the main issues in that election, Sinn fein has led that particular campaign, the Nationalist party were increasingly seen as impotent and incompetent in their dealings with Ireland so Sinn Fein was the bright new hope.

    Many Nationalist and other M.P.s such as Cpt. D.D. Sheehan stepped aside or stepped down, or sufficient were ‘pressured’ out to give Sinn Fein a clear run. Their supporters however while to support Sinn Fein is this one issue did not support Sinn Fein policies per se. Sinn Fein never had their support, they had but a loan of their votes!

    The newly elected Sinn Fein T.D. while they did have the overwhelming support of Nationalist Ireland in terms of votes cast, these Nationalist and mainly conservative ‘loaned voter base’ did not support Sinn Feins radical political program. S.F. had the votes in the Dail yes but this never translated into feet on the ground. If it did it would mean these moderately prosperous middle class conservative farmers/business class becoming turkeys voting for christmas.

    The Post Treaty Split as indeed the later Sinn Fein split but reflected this reality, Sinn fein mark 1) that later evolved into Fin Gael, Sinn Fein mark 2) that became Fianna Fail in 1927 and Sinn Fein mark three 3) Clann Na Phobalacht 1948 Sinn Fein mark3) Sinn Fein/ Sinn Fein Gardner st / Sinn Fein, The Workers Party / (Sinn Fein) Democratic Left etc eventually had to engineer a reverse take over of the existing Labour Party to get a platform and an acceptable place in Irish Politics.

    In North Kerry, one of the most sympathetic areas for the movement, Labor now has its act together, Fine Gael has a solid vote base, Fianna Fail have a good TD in ‘ Young Mac’
    All three reflect the real socia/economic/conservative majority due and the remainder while significant are not sufficient to to get Martin Ferris over the line on the first count.

    Sinn Fein in the South sufficient did not work at radicalizing and expanding their base, they drifted into the same kind of clientele politics as the other main parties. The others have been doing it longer and better so the now there is a price to be paid!