It`s policing Jim, but not as we know it

Jim Allister`s recent press release on the devolution of policing and justice is so full of holes I hardly know where to start.

1. `by surrendering to Sinn Fein’s key “Brits Out” demand over policing and justice.` – is Jim Allister saying Northern Irish people are not British? Was the previous Stormont Assembly with devolved policing less British than now when a local Northern Irish person was in charge of policing, as opposed to a Westminster viceroy like Secretary of State? I think not!

2.’Our strategy is for a new all-Ireland policing and justice system. That cannot be achieved without the transfer of policing and justice powers away from London’ – Quite true, but that is rather like saying that because we have devolution and a Northern Ireland Assembly as opposed to London direct rule we are closer to being governed by Dublin. The logic doesn`t stack up. Moving power to Belfast instead of London is not a Republican goal. It is rather like saying because someone lived in Birmingham and has moved to Belfast that it will lead to them living in Edinburgh….illogical.

3. `No Unionist should be delivering the Sinn Fein agenda. Period!` – Jim Allister seems to take the view that if Sinn Fein supports it then he is against it. Period! Myself, I prefer to analyse things and come to my own, hopefully, informed decision. As far as I can see the DUP as a devolutionist party has supported the devolution of policing in it`s manifesto`s, so long as the conditions are right and the manner is correct! I presume TUV as a devolutionist party support devolution of policing in a voluntary coalition Northern Ireland Assembly? The same voluntary coalition NI Assembly that Peter Robinson has publicly stated is the DUP`s final destination?

4. `control of policing and justice – by gifting it to an Executive, through which every key justice issue will have to pass, on which IRA/Sinn Fein will hold a power of absolute veto.` – Is this not a misrepresentation? Can Jim Allister point to one single piece of `Republican legislation` that has passed through the NI Assembly since devolution? I don`t think so. Why? Because of the veto. That means devolved policing will remain exactly as it is now until and unless a majority of Unionists (and a majority of Nationalists) vote for a change.

I came across tis recently: “a fanatic is one who cannot change his mind, and refuses to change the subject” – Winston Churchill

  • Oh my baby darling

    Did Paul – he of ”blantant untruths” and Gerry Adams
    fanclub fame – assist you in writing this piece?

    One mustn’t forget: the TUV = Northern Ireland’s version of the Official Monster Raving Looney Party.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Mr. Allister and the TUV have nothing to offer the Unionist people except being the best recruiting agent for dissident republicians.

  • chewnic

    If the TUV is a devolutionist party and they achieve significant gains in the next asembly election, how can they participate in a devolved government (under the GFA structures) without sharing power with Sinn Fein?

  • Scaramoosh

    Is there any truth to the rumour that the TUV are the (subversive) political wing of Óglaigh na hÉireann?

  • The previous TUV press release in which Jim claims that the DUP are being forced into a deal because of their fear of an Assembly election is more damaging, an arguement repeated by Reg Empey. The commonsense outlined in this thread will be lost on the many who will simply see another victory for SF if the DUP agree a deal and they will turn in disgust to the TUV.

    The bitterness that characterizes Unionist politics with 3 parties now competing for the same votes will probably only dissipate after after a triumphalist SF secure further Assembly electoral success and Nationalism retains South Belfast and FST.

    Same old sad story.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Policing and Justice is the last piece of the jigsaw for Devolution and it is something that everyone can take ownership of. Peadar Heffron was one of those who took a massive step to help people see that our society has changed but he has paid a terrible price for that. (my prayers are with him and his family)

    The slow and indecisive actions of our politicians has given dissidents on both sides time to let their hate fester into violence. We need completion on this issue soon so we can move on together as one, well start fresh, and leave the Peace Wreckers with a firm message to, “Leave us in peace”

    The TUV cannot give the people of Northern Ireland a stable future by ignoring the catholic population. Policing & Justice now!

  • union mack

    i’ve been minded to oppose it’s immediate introduction, not on any mad notions like the TUV, but rather because i don’t feel our executive can deal with the powers it has in a mature fashion, never mind giving them additional powers. however, if it helped avoid incidents like the horror of the attack on Peadar Heffron, then devolving it now is a minute price to pay. as long as the deal is comprehensive, thorough, and will stand the test of time, then just do it and be done. Allister’s analysis is crazy, he consistently talks of a SF veto, yet thinks that they can create an all-island justice system with unionist acquiescence. P&J is the final piece of the jigsaw, it’s as far as SF will get

  • Blue Hammer

    Wilful misrepresentation Stephen.

    TUV is not about ignoring catholics. Or Peace wrecking.

    It’s about holding murderers to account and not ignoring their murderous activity simply for political expedience.

    Too hard to grasp?

  • Stephen Blacker

    Blue Hammer,

    The reason i said that the TUV would ignore catholics is because if the TUV tried to exclude Sinn Fein the SDLP would not do any kind of deal with Jim Allister.

    The people that murdered during our “Troubles” were let out of jail as part of Conflict Transformation. It is a vile fact that far too many people died here and gut wrenching decisions needed to be faced and taken.

  • Comrade Stalin

    TUV is not about ignoring catholics.

    I’m sure Catholics feel right at home in a party which incorporates people who feel that an individual known only for sectarian murder should be treated as a special case by the justice system.

    It’s about holding murderers to account and not ignoring their murderous activity simply for political expedience.

    Yeah, as long as they’re not loyalists.

  • Kilsally

    Thanks for that creative interpretation of Jim’s statement.

    I think you may labour under the delusion that devolving these vital functions to an Assembly containing convicted murderers, bombers, gunmen and bank robbers is “normal”. It is not. It is a moral obscenity and no unionist should support this.

    TUV does not ignore the view of Catholics, but it utterly rejects the wishes of terrorists, their apologists and their new found DUP partners in political depravity.

    Clearly it suits the DUP’s republican allies to misrepresent TUV but I hope that I have been able to enlighten you.

  • Comrade Stalin

    And let’s get it straight about the difference between GFA prisoner releases and the TUV.

    With the GFA, prisoner releases were conditional and part of a larger package, and applied to all relevant paramilitary prisoners.

    The TUV member in question wanted an unconditional release, which is not part of a larger package, and which applies to one prisoner only (presumably, given the TUV party line, to the exclusion of the others).

  • Comrade Stalin

    David,

    I think you may labour under the delusion that devolving these vital functions to an Assembly containing convicted murderers, bombers, gunmen and bank robbers is “normal”. It is not. It is a moral obscenity and no unionist should support this.

    Quite right, David. So would you care to remind us once again of your opinion of the Irgun and the King David Hotel bombing ?

  • Blue Hammer

    CS

    As i have said elsewhere, your deputy leader’s dalliance with loyalists seems to give you no pain.

    Those in glass houses …..

  • Comrade Stalin

    Terrorism is wrong, period. Now, repeat after me, terrorism is wrong and terrorist godfathers such as McGuinness in high office is obscene. If you can agree with this, progress is made. (Not sure that TUV is running on an Irgun agenda, are they standing for election here?)

  • David – I am in favour if Peter Ribinsons stated destination of weighted majority systems / voluntary coalition but I am quite sure a return to direct rule would be bad for Unionism and NI. But can you confirm TUV would support devolved p & j under a voluntary coalition as espoused in previous DUP manifesto’s since TUV is a devolutionist party?

  • Please forgive the predictive text typos. On mobile.

  • Alias

    Jim Allister rigorously adheres to Dicey’s doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty. Dicey also argued against Gladstone’s Home Rule on the grounds that devolution of sovereign powers from the UK parliament to the nations would undermine his doctrine. Jim at least is consistent in that he also opposes the EU on the similar grounds.

  • tacapall

    Terrorism is wrong, period. Now, repeat after me, terrorism is wrong and terrorist godfathers such as McGuinness in high office is obscene.

    Posted by David Vance on Jan 13, 2010 @ 11:20 PM

    Does that mean Peter Robinson, Ian Paisley and other senior unionist are terrorist godfathers, didn’t they create the Third Force whose members tried to sell state secrets in France i.e. Shorts Blowpipe missle system for guns, didn’t they along with the UDA, UVF bring hundreds of Rifles into the country from South Africa and some of these were used to murder innocent catholics. Didn’t David Irvine publicly state that the DUP advised them NOT to call a ceasefire when they were murdering innocent catholics. Typical unionist hypocrisy I suppose this was all lawful to you.

  • danielmoran

    Moderate unionist…..msg 5 sadly, from your point of view , that is true. Nevertheless, I don’t take satisfaction from it.
    Unionist voters have been severely shortchanged by BOTH of their parties. I recall in 2004 or thereabouts when the DUP’s most disabled ally, Gregory Campbell on the sub-question time programme, LET’S TALK, came out with the cretinous, line that, now the DUP were the main unionist party that ‘UNIONISTS WERE OFF THEIR KNEES’ Now, unionist voters know who to blame for the fact that , THEY ARE NOW PROSTRATE.
    SinnFEIN have, in spite of themselves seen the DUP sucking off from the leftovers.

  • iluvni
  • JG

    To David Vance terrorists in government is fine in Israel but obscene in Norn Iron.

    I suspect it’s more the taigs than the terrorism he’s a problem with.

  • JG

    I suspect your ignorance about me is only exceeded by your ignorance about Israel.

  • Henry94

    The TUV position won’t survive the scrutiny of an election campaign. They want to engineer the collapse of the institutions but they won’t come out and say so because they know the voters want to keep the institutions.

    I think David Vance would make a fine MLA but the party in general need to come clean about their intentions.

  • Will someone please tell Sammy Wilson it is January already and to pop back from the Future to the Present and change the date on his blog for [quote]
    Sammy’s weekly column – 11th December 2010 [/quote] is surely futuristic nonsense from the Minister of Finance and Personnel. … http://www.sammywilson.org/2010/01/12/sammys-weekly-column-11th-december-2010/

  • Mr. J.

    Interesting.

    One thing that always intrigues me about the TUV and their apparent refusal to accept ‘IRA/Sinn Fein’ in government, and their claims of not ignoring the Catholic population.

    Do they realise that the ‘terrorists and apologists’ of Sinn Fein have widespread electoral support, which is why they are the largest nationalist party in the Assembly?

    And that the majority of Sinn Fein voters would be Catholic?

    And that any devolved government that excludes or seeks to minimise or exclude the role of Sinn Fein isn’t representative?

    Whilst they may feel it is a moral obscenity for those they describe as terrorists to hold high office, unfortunately that is the price that must be paid to have a representative government in Northern Ireland.

    They don’t have to like it. They do, however, have to work with it.

  • iluvni

    I think TUV must clarify their position on the Torrens Knight petitioner.
    Would Jim Allister or David Vance be comfortable sitting next to the man who petitioned on behalf of Torrens Knight at a TUV party conference?

    I may be in tune with quite a lot of the TUV opinion on the goings on at Stormont, but I sure wont vote for them whilst there remains murkiness on this issue.

    Is it unacceptable to have terrorists in Government but ok to have those who petition on behalf of sectarian killers in the party?

  • JG

    Davd Vance: “I suspect your ignorance about me is only exceeded by your ignorance about Israel”

    You’ll be gald to know I haven’t the slightest interest in you! On Israel, the terrorist godfathers of the Irgun ended up in the Israeli government. Was this obscene, or just fine and dandy, wise sage?

  • tacapall

    TUV does not ignore the view of Catholics, but it utterly rejects the wishes of terrorists, their apologists and their new found DUP partners in political depravity.

    Clearly it suits the DUP’s republican allies to misrepresent TUV but I hope that I have been able to enlighten you.
    Posted by David Vance on Jan 13, 2010 @ 11:08 PM

    TUV leader Jim Alister was a leading member of the DUP when they met and advised the UVF not to call a ceasefire, coupled with their position on the serial murderer Torrens Knight, obviously Jim Alister and the TUV define loyalist terrorism differently than republican.

  • tacapelli

    TUV opposes terrorists in government. Period. Is that too tough to grasp? The sheer depravity and immorality seems to escape you. IRA, UVF, UDA et al. Get it?

    Iluvni

    There is no murkiness. Read my view above. Knight and the REST of the scum that infested this place deserve nothing but utter contempt. TUV Policy is simple, direct, concise. However you can vote for the DUP which sits in power with terrorists, or the UUP which helped out them in power.

    Mr J

    The fact that a majority of nationalists endorse IRA/Sin Fein is not something to be proud of – it is shameful.

  • danielmoran

    David Vance. Catholics have only voted SF recently because of Trimble’s failed gamble which propelled the DUP to the top of unionist pile. They had voted SDLP since that party came into being in 1970, and in the next few years since stormont was axed, unionist refused to sit in govt with those well known ‘terrorists’ Gerry Fitt and John Hume precisely BECAUSE they were Catholics, but they couldn’t afford to admit their bigotry so used the figleaf of the council of Ireland which was toothless and they knew it.
    So don’t complain now because unionists caused SF being in power by their refusal to treat catholics as equals.

  • iluvni

    DV,
    I know you abhor Loyalist terrorist scum, as much as I do…but….lets address the detail of the petitioner. Are you comfortable that someone prepared to take such a stance in support of a sectarian mass murderer remains a member of the TUV?

    (if the mods permit the playing of the man in this discussion)

  • So….does TUV support devolution of p&j under a voluntary coalition? No takers from TUV?

  • Kilsally

    No.

    iluvni

    Not my wish but so long but it is not party policy.

  • iluvni

    I’m not too sure what that reply means.

  • tacapall

    TUV opposes terrorists in government. Period. Is that too tough to grasp? The sheer depravity and immorality seems to escape you. IRA, UVF, UDA et al. Get it?
    Posted by David Vance on Jan 14, 2010 @ 07:57 PM

    That does not answer my question wheither your leader and unionism in general regards loyalist terrorism as different from republican, your leader was a senior member of the DUP who advised the UVF not to call a ceasefire when they were murdering innocent catholics, they also helped bring in hundreds of weapons to murder innocent catholics through the third force ie Ulster Resistance, If I am telling any untruths then challange me and prove im wrong.

  • tacapalli

    I cannot speak for Unionism “in general” but I can speak me for me. ALL terrorism here is appalling, without any justification, morally repugnant, depraved and all concerned SHOULD be behind bars (or, better still,at the end of a noose) I have been saying this for years. Your allegations re DUP support for UVF are pathetic. Perhaps you got them confused with the PUP and the sainted Mr Ervine, so beloved of republicanism?

  • tacapall

    Your allegations re DUP support for UVF are pathetic. Perhaps you got them confused with the PUP and the sainted Mr Ervine, so beloved of republicanism?
    Posted by David Vance on Jan 15, 2010 @ 10:52 AM

    While Robinson, DUP, (BT 4-1-1994) warned Westminster that if they didn’t “listen to the ballot box, they will hear the rattle of gunfire for some years to come,” Paisley suggested that, with the benefit of hindsight, he should have been much tougher, saying that if he had not acted within the law, successive governments might have taken more notice of him (BT 1-3-95). According to loyalist sources, key members of the DUP advised against calling a cease-fire: “They said even if nobody was killed, we should maintain the threat as a bargaining chip”. (Sunday Times 16-10-94).

    Kinner, PUP (Irish Times 3.9.94) said ” fears and insecurities…have been generated… and instilled into working class communities by unionist politicians. They have often … been used to manipulate the paramilitaries into engaging in violent activities, and …the politicans who generated the situation then wash their hands of them, condemning them for taking their call to arms too literally.”

    http://www.ccruni.gov.uk/research/temple/discus4.htm

  • tacapall

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Resistance

    The group was launched at a three thousand-strong invitation only meeting at the Ulster Hall. The rally was chaired by the Democratic Unionist Party member Sammy Wilson and addressed by party colleagues Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson and Ivan Foster. Also on the platform at the rally was Alan Wright, the Chairman of the Ulster Clubs. The launch rally was followed by a number of similar assemblies across Northern Ireland.

    The group collaborated with the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) to procure arms. In June 1987 the UVF stole more than £300,000 from the Northern Bank in Portadown. The money was used to buy 206 Vz. 58 assault rifles, 94 Browning 9mm pistols, 4 RPG-7 rocket launchers and 62 warheads, 450 RGD-5 grenades and 30,000 rounds of ammunition which arrived at Belfast docks from Lebanon in December 1987. [4] The weapons were then transported to a farm between Armagh and Portadown, to await collection by the three groups. [5]