Cardinal Cahal Daly dies…

Cardinal Cahal Brendan Daly died tonight. The 92 year old prelate has been in hospital suffering from heart trouble. The late Cardinal was a distinguished scholar in scholastic philosophy and was credited with writing Pope John Paul II’s famous speech at Drogheda in 79 when he visited Ireland. In that text Pope John Paul uttered the words to the IRA:

“On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace. You may claim to seek justice. I too, believe in justice and seek justice. But violence only delays the day of justice.”

Daly rigourously avoided interfacing with politicians. He was the bishop of Down and Connor before becoming Archbishop of Armagh and ultimately Cardinal. He was born Loughguile in Co Antrim and educated at St Malachy’s College in belfast where he later taught… He held senior post as a lecturer in scholastic philosophy in Queens Univeristy in Belfast, prior to his elevation within the Church.

  • John O’Connell

    Turn away from the “paths” of violence

  • John O’Connell

    May he rest in peace.

    He fought a brave battle against Adams in West Belfast that, upon him being elevated to Archbishop and then Cardinal, resulted in Gerry Adams losing his Westminster seat and a weakened Gerry Adams having to declare a ceasefire in less than perfect circumstances. Not a bad day’s work.

  • DoctorWho

    Is it clear what part Daly played in the covering up of widespread child abuse by his clergy?

  • Stephen Blacker

    I am very sorry to hear of Cardinal Daly dying. The quote above is just one of a number of wise things the Cardinal said in his life, I like the part, “violence only delays the day of justice!” Wise words indeed! R.I.P. Cardinal Daly.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Doctorwho.

    It’s not time or the place. By all accounts this cardinal will be sorely missed by the church. A trailblazer of sorts.

    May he rest in peace

  • anne warren

    VIXII. He lived his life. RIP

  • Only Asking

    He had a brilliant mind, I think he was one of the first to translate the liturgy into the vernacular. He had a good innings though, may he rest in peace.

  • David Watson

    Eamonn, An excellent opening to the end of a long life. I spoke to Cahal Daly many times, and as a political corr (then) with the Belfast Telegraph, reported many of his conciliatory speeches.

    You will probably recollect a press conference at Stormont where he (and, indeed, me) were lambasted by Ian Paisley. It was over the Primrose Hill speech, which I had described as “panoramic” in its analysis of Northern Ireland and its conciliation attempts. I only met him once, at the Linen Hall Library. And how gentle and thoughtful he was.
    As an atheist, I leave religious aspects to others.

  • Lionel Hutz

    David,

    it would be hard to ignore his brilliant mind, even as an athiest. Although I never knew him that well, he was a good friend of my family who have been with many stories of his wit, intelligience and courage. His memory will live on

  • Eamonn Mallie

    HIs was a far from commonplace mind. Worth remembering for what he said on the topic of whataboutery (http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2005/02/glossary_what_i.php)…

    The scholarly priest is a rare breed at the best of times, and rarer than ever in these days of the raconteur, the charlatan and shallow celebrity…

  • DoctorWho

    “whataboutery the commonest form of moral evasion in Ireland today”

    Ah! moral evasion something Daly and his church where more than experts at.

  • granni trixie

    May he rest in peace. I remember that he used to visit us children in the Sacred Heart Home in the Ormeau Rd (his mother lived nearby).He brought us sweets and used to sing to us (he had a lovely voice).

    Strangely, he gave up singing a song with the line “the divil he hoisted her up on his back ..rifle, rifle tiddle fillee..” because he thought it unsuitable. Indeed he was an innocent who must really have been aghast at the current priestly scandals. And as this memory illustrates, all priests were not out to harm children.

  • Driftwood

    What the hell is ‘Scholastic’ philosophy?

    Did they cut out David Hume?

    Brilliant mind my arse. Good point DoctorWho.

  • Danny O’Connor

    RIP Cardinal Daly,
    He had a falling out with Pat Buckley and sacked him when he was bishop of Down and Connor.

  • Danny O’Connor

    Mick ,it is sad that people now choose to mock and scorn a man who can no longer defend himself.It seems there are people out there who will use any excuse for a bit of Catholic bashing.

    Dr who, it is not his church,he was a member of it ,it was not a member of him,maybe you should take a course in philosophy.

  • Stephen Blacker

    I am very sorry to see some disrespectful comments made about Cardinal Daly. Ironically the only people that are getting shamed are the contributers themselves and their families. Cardinal Daly was what he was and no amount of contemptible remarks will change that.

    If you cant say anything nice about the deceased do this man’s friends and supporters a favour and leave them to remember him in peace.

  • DoctorWho

    Danny

    “Dr who, it is not his church,he was a member of it ,it was not a member of him,maybe you should take a course in philosophy. ”

    It is perfectly acceptable to say his church, in the same way you would say his team, it implies he is a member. Or was.

    Furthermore I think it perfectly reasonable to bash religion irrespevtive if its Catholic or any of the fragmented Protestant Churches. In this case the usual outpouring of grief exonerates this man, who while holding the highest office his church could bestow upon him in Ireland chose to ignore the actions of his colleagues who brought so much pain and suffering to many. Ach! but sure he could sing a nice wee song.

    I take no joy in the news of his death, he seemed like a pleasant enough man, but I wasn´t aware that slugger was now a book of condolence.

  • Danny O’Connor

    No it is not,if someone is a colonel in the army ,is it his army?his is a possessive pronoun,the army is of course not his,he may command a regiment in that army,but it is not his regiment,would a private in the regiment be right in saying it was his?of course not, the Catholic Church is not my Church.The Church belongs to God ,it is His Church.My faith belongs to me and I choose to belong to the Catholic Church,I can use the possesseive pronoun my because it is mine personally.

  • Erasmus

    Dr. Who, Driftwood,
    De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

  • wje

    He’ll be remembered fondly in the Catholic Parish of Drumcree for standing up for, and beside, his parishioners there in 1996. Some of those parishioners gave him verbal abuse in the aftermath of the forced Orange parade that year as they believed (wrongfully) that he was party to what occurred.

    I believe the sermon he delivered at Mass in Portadown the following Sunday regarding the events of that July was published in full in the Irish News: events which he termed to be “the blackest day in the history of the Northern state.”

    It would again be worth reading today.

  • wje

    I forgot to add: Whatever any of his other failings – Suaimhneas Síoraí ar a h-anam.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Doctorwho,

    I will spend many years lambasting you because of the commentoutou have made about this gracious man. If you think someone who was in charge for 6 years in the 90s is the equivalent of a child molester then it is indicative of your bigotry.

    [keep it civil – edited moderator]

  • Stephen Blacker

    Lionel Hutz

    Stay calm my friend, think of what Cardinal Daly would say to these people, he would forgive them. He was as you quite rightly say “A Gracious man!” When you hear people like Eamonn Mallie speak of him in glowing terms, disrespectful remarks are hurtful but really mean nothing.

    Through out history lots of really good people have passed on and out come the twisted people with vile remarks. They are letting themselves down and letting their Mothers down because it shows that they were not taught respect!

    Sit back and look at the tributes and remember the Cardinal with the fond stories from your family, as you stated above! No more bad words, not on this page please!

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys,

    There is always someone who will speak poorly of the departed. It’s not pleasant, but your points would be better made if people looked for the substance in their remarks and challenged them, or focus on their own recollections of the man.

    Drift,

    I thought you were a nascent Tory? If so, I would like to hear from others sympathetic to that party what they think of your foregoing remarks on an individual of whom you seem to know very little, for a pretty crass attack on his church?

    It should be possible to set doctrinal considerations to one side and consider the life of an individual outside the reflexively tribal politicisation of that life… That would be ‘the Protestant thing’ to do…

    Oh, and just because David Hume was a great Protestant and a great Scot does not mean you have automatic rights to appeal to him as a idol of your own particular cave (*See Frances Bacon, and the appeal to authority).

    If you only got as far as Aristotle, it would serve you better in this and many other debates on Slugger to provide readable content than indulge in sectarian barbs…

  • The Spectator

    Mick

    Slightly off topic, but pertinant in the light of this thread and others.

    Do you feel the registration experiment is working? I have regularly been depressed or bemused by the (lack of quality) in many posts on slugger over the years, but this was always levened somewhat by occasions of genuine insight, or cut and thrust.

    The last few weeks, however, have just .. well, I wouldn’t say depressed, but I feel a wave of resignation that the quality has gone down the pan. The trollish are still singing up happily enough, but the insightful seem to have wandered off.

    Admittedly, I have adopted a policy for some time of simply not reading almost any of Pete’s posts, and consciously avoiding engagement in Turgon’s for reasons I have set out before, but having broken my own ordinance over the last two days in order not to write in ignorantia, they haven’t altered my broad feeling of disengagement.

    Don’t worry, Mick, I’m not suggesting you should care about my engagment per se, I don’t matter, but my wider point stands…

  • DoctorWho

    Blacker

    “They are letting themselves down and letting their Mothers down because it shows that they were not taught respect!”

    lol, MY Mum is a very fine women and is not responsible for my behaviour, which is perfectly reasonable. Had the thread stated sign the book of condolence here I would not have commented.

    Many may not see the hypocrisy in the beatification of the recently departed, but I think it perfectly reasonable to ask the question – Was Daly complicit in the cover up of sexual abuse by the Catholic Church in Ireland?

    As I have said before outwardly he seemed a decent man, who had a good innings. The comments and abuse of Lionel Hutz and Stephen Blacker show that there are clear mental issues when you force a religion on someone and maybe their mothers may have been better to let them choose their own.

  • Danny O’Connor

    DoctorWho
    IT may be reasonable to ask a question,but your post at #11 is not a question.

  • Comrade Stalin

    No it is not,if someone is a colonel in the army ,is it his army?

    You’re damn right it is.

  • Mick Fealty

    TS, YOu’re right, it is off topic. Registration is not an end in itself. but when we move against registered members, they stay off at least for a time. The new site will give us more tools in the battle for quality comment.

  • I didn’t live in Ireland when Cardinal Daly was active, so I am interested in people’s memories of him. I was struck by Donal McKeown’s brief interview about him on Radio Ulster today, in which in the face of the crises facing the church Daly said it was an exciting time to be a young priest. I write more about here: http://www.gladysganiel.com/

  • Brian MacAodh

    Gerry Adams was very fond of Mr Daly

  • DoctorWho

    To the Moderator

    You rightly censored the disgusting, vile and threatening post by Lionel Hutz, you have however left the worst bit of his post on the thread,in which he attributes things towards me that I neither posted nor implied.

    I would be grateful if you could remove his entire vile post.

  • Turgon

    Mick,
    This is off thread but I feel I am entitled to a right of reply to The Spectator

    The Spectator,
    I see you avoid engagement in my threads. Presumably you have some pseudo-intellectual explanation for this. You have tried that explanation previously including with infantile insults about me being a lone voice in an echo chamber (it is pretty full in my echo chamber) with support from no one (see the other comments on that thread).

    I might actually observe that what I suspect you dislike is that I am able to attack and chase cheerleaders and usually they eventually give up and go away; their arguments defeated to all save themselves and their explanations exposed for the perverse lies that they are.

    Now you may wish to entreat with cheerleaders; you may be one for all I know.

    You may feel intellectually superior to me and not need to debate (You may well be intellectually superior; I pretend no great intellect). Alternatively you may fear losing and instead make snide remarks on threads which I am not using.

    As to you feeling disengaged: despite your comment that Mick should not care; you quite clearly think he should. I cannot speak for Mick but it sounds very much like you are taking your ball home because you do not get your own way. Well go ahead: No major loss as it happens. I for one will not be worrying. Still if you make childish and insulting remarks about me (the only ones you ever have as it happens) do not expect me to fail to respond.

  • Turgon

    Since I am on this thread might I say that Cardinal Daly seems to have been a man of great religious and intellectual standing.

    He spoke for his church and his community and seemed to manage to be a long term religious leader who had an appropriate level of political involvement. He did not enter into every political issue but equally did not refuse any involvement in politics as if it were unclean.

    92 is a great age and in the future his friends and family will no doubt look back happy he lived so long. That does not, however, make the pain of loss much less at this time. No matter how long we have our friends and relatives we always want them for a little longer.

  • The Spectator

    Mick

    As you command.

    Turgon

    I see you avoid engagement in my threads. Presumably you have some pseudo-intellectual explanation for this.

    You presume too much, in both the general and the specific.

    You have tried that explanation previously including with infantile insults about me being a lone voice in an echo chamber (it is pretty full in my echo chamber) with support from no one

    Firstly, Turgon, at NO stage did I suggest you were a ‘lone’ voice. Not even close. Either that is a lie, or you entirely misconstrued that thread. Your choice.

    Secondly, I’m not sure what you believe is gained by introducing a petty insult such as infantile. It is patently inaccurate, but perhaps more to the point, it’s pathetic, in the true sense of the word.

    I might actually observe that what I suspect you dislike is that I am able to attack and chase cheerleaders and usually they eventually give up and go away

    1. Either observe it or don’t observe it – the circumlocution isn’t impressive.
    2. Your suspicions are both inaccurate, and more importantly largely irrelevant.
    3. With all gentleness intended, I think you overestimate yourself here.

    You may feel intellectually superior to me and not need to debate

    Indeed I might feel that way, and indeed I might well be correct to, but what concern of it is yours?

    I don’t remember ever flaunting my education or academic achievements in your threads, am I wrong?

    Now, you might want to stick to the content. Trying to shoot the messanger is not going to work with me, Turgon.

    Debate is the key word, Turgon. What you are doing, by your own words, is in no meaningful sense debate. Debate requires mutual engagement. You seem to consider that itself anathema. Indeed, it is that very opposition to actual debate, rather than anything else, that means I tend to overlook your posts. That, and the constant reversion for authority to your own feelings. I meantioned that many moons ago, and my views haven’t changed.

    Alternatively you may fear losing and instead make snide remarks on threads which I am not using.

    Wrong again, Sherlock.

    And you see, THAT was snide.

    Simply noting I don’t tend to read certain posters is not snide. Look it up.

    As to you feeling disengaged: despite your comment that Mick should not care; you quite clearly think he should.

    There’s that presumption again. I post very little here. My absence would basrely be noted. Quite rightly.

    I think the site is suffering a bit. No more. No less. Keep the pseudo-psychology for someone who believes in it.

    I cannot speak for Mick

    Correct.

    but it sounds very much like you are taking your ball home because you do not get your own way.

    Get your ears checked.

    Well go ahead: No major loss as it happens. I for one will not be worrying.

    And apparently I/m the ‘infantile’ one.

    Turgon, I’m sure you’ve heard the one about beams and motes. Learn it, love it, live it.

    Mick

    Out of curiosity, was that ‘ad hominem’?

    Just so I know.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Wasn’t sure about that comment when I posted it but I’m glad I did. It had the desired effect

  • Turgon

    The Spectator ,
    No you are the one who introduced the ad hominem attack the last time we discussed things on slugger. It is here just so everyone can see it. You said I was in an echo chamber and dismissed the suggestion that many people share my views. As such you effectively said I was a lone voice. Admittedly when challenged you said that others shared my views but that we had no relevance. Clearly you feel so intellectually superior to us that you dismiss the idea that everyone is entitled to express their views.

    Then on this thread you introduce comment on me. It had absolutely nothing to do with this thread. You could have sent the whole thing as a private email to Mick but it is quite clear that you wanted to sound off about your dislike of the views of certain bloggers and their approach to debate and you mentioned me. In addition you criticised the level of debate here. Well it may not be up to your standard but since you clearly look down on me and it seems the rest of us, there is little we can do about it.

    You say I am not involved in debate and that debate requires mutual engagement: Wrong. I do debate with many on this site; the fact that you do not approve of my method of debate is not relevant. In addition debate does not require engagement in the sense you mean. I have debated on this site and in public without engaging with republicans. Debate with republicans is for me to attack and expose them. That is clearly not the form of engagement you want but that is just your hard luck. You cannot tell the rest of us how to debate. The only person here who can is Mick and I have not seen him stopping me.

    Then you tell me not to presume and in the same breath say you feel the site is suffering. You clearly do not do irony: though you seem to do arrogance rather well.

    Since you rarely comment (by your own admission) and then decry the quality of debate: what are you doing about it? Ah yes an ad hominem attack on me: not really calculated to raise the quality of debate is it?

    Finally to introduce a personal attack on me on a blog about the late Cahal Daly is actually in pretty poor taste.

    As I said you could have emailed Mick with your concerns but instead chose an inappropriate time to do so. That tells us about your self importance. Your second post merely displays your arrogance.

  • querulus

    Both Turgon and The Spectator have indictated they are off-topic but may wish to continue to debate their differences. Can a separate thread be started to allow that, and reserve this one for those who have thoughts about the late Cardinal?

    I did not know the Cardinal. I most remember him for an impressive piece on TV about the family and marriage. 92 yrs is a good innings.

  • Turgon

    querulus,
    That is a fair comment and I would invite The Spectator to email me with his / her concerns or move the discussion to Gael gan Náire’s latest blog.

    I apologise for involving myself in debate on a blog on an important and highly regarded gentleman’s obituary. In my defence it was only when personally attacked here but my apologises anyhow.

  • querulus

    Turgon

    Fair enough

  • DoctorWho

    lionel blair

    “Wasn’t sure about that comment when I posted it but I’m glad I did. It had the desired effect ”

    Bizarre, the only thing you suceeded in doing was getting censored and also darken the name of Daly. If he was indeed a gracious man like you said, you certainly do not follow his example.

    The fact that you deliberately lied about what I said does not bother me in the slightest as only you would know why you would bother to do that.

    Happy new year.

  • the future is bright the future is orange

    Regards to the family. I’m not really that familar with the man but it’s clear that he was very highly thought of by many sections of the community. RIP.