Picking on the Republic’s tax discs offenders?

Not only is the north mopping up on the shopping but the PSNI are becomng officious over southern motorists’ laws, it seems. We all tell stories in a tight corner but this one has a ring of truth from the Derry Journal.

…the Inishowen mother, whose car was pulled over had her Irish registered car clamped despite her car tax being out of date by 48 hours. The distraught mum, who wishes to remain anonymous, was clearly seriously distressed as she told the Journal the only reason her car was untaxed was because she was waiting for her insurance certificate to come through – which is required in the south to get a car taxed. In the south there’s normally a 14 day ‘grace period’

So there is in GB – and surely in NI too?

When the Journal asked the PSNI – who were in charge of checking cars during Wednesday’s operation – if they were directly targeting southern drivers and could this not be considered sectarian?’

Or is a really good blagging lobby doing the rounds?

  • al

    Broke the law, deal with it. Why should people from the south be treated differently? The Derry Journal should be thanking the police for doing a job that obviously the Garda are not capable of if all the cars pulled were from the south.

  • paddy

    no tax.no excuse itll harden her

  • Comrade Stalin

    I have had to present my insurance document every time I renew my tax.

    The “waiting for insurance certificate to come through” thing doesn’t really weigh up. Reminders to renew tax, up here at least, are sent out about six weeks in advance, insurance renewals likewise.

  • Dave

    “She had only ventured in to Derry to do a bit of Christmas shopping, now she says she’ll never go back again.”

    Good girl! The road tax on Irish-registered cars is not paid to Her Majesty, so there is no loss of revenue if an Irish car is not taxed in that sovereign jurisdiction and therefore no valid reason to clamp the car. It seems like it is a clamping scam to get penalty revenue from Irish drivers. She should take it up with the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs.

  • al

    She was driving untaxed on European roads, that’s not legal. It’s hardly a scam Dave.

  • A North Antrim man was recently fined £50 for driving a car whose MOT certificate had expired four days earlier whereas a ferry operator ‘drove’ a ferry for eleven days with an invalid passenger certificate and the authorities first of all said the previous owner had done it too and, when that didn’t hold up, they blamed themselves 🙂 It’s a funny old world.

  • Dave

    What law did she break? Irish law allows a discretionary period since a car cannot be taxed until an insurance certificate is produced at the tax office. She broke no law in this jurisdiction.

    Also, EU law does not require road tax. Poland, of example, doesn’t have any tax discs. Road tax is a revenue generating policy of national government. Which leads to the question: if no revenue was be paid to Her Majesy’s Treasury, why did they clamp the car? No reason other than that the release fee earns Her Majesty 260 from Irish citizens who must then export that fee to the UK from Ireland in order to release their car.

    It’s a scam targetted at Irish citizens aimed at boosting revenue for the UK

  • John O’Connell

    Comrade Stalin

    The “waiting for insurance certificate to come through” thing doesn’t really weigh up. Reminders to renew tax, up here at least, are sent out about six weeks in advance, insurance renewals likewise.

    Unless you are changing insurance company or renewing at the same time you tax your car.

    I’ve never heard such claptrap coming from you and others. It’s so lacking in empathy.

  • I imagine the PSNI Commander in (L)Derry will be receiving a nice card from the Dept of Finance any day now – since they have just incentivised the early payment of car tax and keeping shopping business south of the border in one fell swoop!

    (ironically the submit word for this post is… tax!)

  • John O’Connell

    Dave

    It’s a scam targetted at Irish citizens aimed at boosting revenue for the UK

    I agree.

  • @Dave – discretion given in one jurisdiction is not binding on another. She had an obligation to ensure her car was conformant to the rules in NI, end of story.

  • iluvni

    ‘Sectarian’ to check drivers from the Republic of Ireland comply with the law in Northern Ireland?
    Are they kidding?

  • John O’Connell

    iluvni

    It might not be sectarian but it is damn unseasonal.

  • John O’Connell

    They often ask me how do I judge other people but it is pretty apparent that there is only one basis and that is on the basis of empathy. Do they have empathy for other human beings? It is clear that this thread divides around those who have empathy for the woman and those who obey the law (in their dreams, of course).

    But it is a complete division between New Testament empathy and Old Testament adherence to the rules of men. So judging’s pretty easy really when you know how.

  • John,

    who asks you such questions? Who is ‘they’ lad?

  • anyonebutmonica

    Now that our Human Rights Commissar Mc Williams is back (I think), from moonlighting in Timor for the Irish Government, can’t she lean on Dublin to take up the case of poor Irish folk oppressed by the P.S.N.I.?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Dave,

    Road tax is a revenue generating policy of national government.

    Road tax ? What is this Road tax ?

    Road tax is a revenue generating policy of national government.

    Taxes are a revenue generating policy of national government ? No shit ?

    why did they clamp the car? No reason other than that the release fee earns Her Majesty 260 from Irish citizens who must then export that fee to the UK from Ireland in order to release their car.

    Probably because they can clamp any car which is on the road illegally.

    Just out of curiosity, is the grace period on the tax really “in Irish law” or is it a grace period granted by the tax office ? In NI you can drive for 14 days after your tax expiry, as long as you have actually applied for tax and that the tax certificate continues when the last one expired.

  • alan56

    This is all part of Matt Baggots new drive for co-operation, convergence and ignoring the border.republicans should be happy!

  • Alliance of scum

    Comrade – I thought Alliance was supposed to be the nice party? What a bunch of sectarian bigots you really are

  • slug

    Just shows how the cry of “sectarianism” can be ill founded and knee jerk.

    You broke the law. Tough.

  • Trev

    So it’s “sectarian” to police those from the Republic driving in NI? It’s interesting to know that every driver in the Republic is a Catholic; has the ban on Protestants in public life extended so far?

  • Marty McG

    There is something I have always noticed about the Lefties on this board and elsewhere.

    The complain about the taxes [on this blog, road tax] and at another time complain about the amount of benefits, pensions given to those eligible by Her Majesty’s Government. They whinge that benefits aren’t enough, whilst in another breath they support unlimited immigration, many of these new inhabitants merely joining the ever increasing benefit queue.

    It is very simple economics. If the Government don’t collect taxes, then it can’t pay benefits. The left have never learned this…..the want to pay less tax and throw more benefits at those work-shy types that vote for them.

  • aquifer

    A hard one. An uninsured car can be financially disastrous for anyone it hits, even without injury, and it could be even harder to get recompense if the driver lives in another jurisdiction.

    I’m for straight down the line enforcement. There are too many people running about here who think that they are above any law but their own. And too many whingers also. So the lady paid some extra for schools and hospitals. That’s OK.

    Untaxed uninsured ‘Runabouts’ are notorious for involvement in crime, and for collisions where the driver just runs away from his £150 worth.

    Whats the alternative? Let anybody respectable looking in a shiny car drive on? I’ve seen BMWs and 4 x 4s clamped, the authorities are not soft pedalling on this, and they are just right.

  • Rory Carr

    Marty McG, your above remarks are untrue, unfounded and simply ridiculous. The left have no objection to taxation, our objection is to unfair taxation in that the poor share a greater burden of taxation than do the rich who also receive a much greater allocation of benefits from the state than do the poor. It’s Billy Bunter in charge of the Tuck Shop at Greyfriars.

    In any case clamping piracy has long been a scandal and it is high time these privateer rogues were brought to public account.

    I support Dave’s line of reasoning on this matter. The woman owed no duty to display a NI Road tax certificate on her vehicle as she is a citizen resident in the Republic visiting Northern Ireland while driving a vehicle registered in that state. Any breach of the Republic’s requirements as to Road Tax certificates are a matter for that jurisdiction.

    She should appeal. I am agnostic as to any sectarian motives in her being singled out and I suspect that she was more likely just another opportunity for clamping privateers to perfect their piracy on the high road if not on the high sea.

  • Rory Carr

    I must add though that if the woman’s vehicle was not properly insured then all my sympathies fly out the window. I am a fickle and unchivalrous fellow when it comes to insurance requirements and would be happy to have the drivers of uninsured vehicles clamped to the nearest lamp post, never mind their vehicles.

  • Dave

    “Road tax ? What is this Road tax ?” – Comrade Stalin

    Who the fuck knows? But “road tax” returns 3,220,000 results on Google. Why don\\’t you toodle off and come back with the exciting news about what it is?

    \\”Taxes are a revenue generating policy of national government ? No shit ?” – Comrade Stalin

    You’re not a particularly bright boy when it comes to following context, are you? Now pay attention to this:

    “Also, EU law does not require road tax. Poland, for example, doesn’t have any tax discs. Road tax is a revenue generating policy of national government.”

    And notice that it is in reply to this:

    “She was driving untaxed on European roads, that’s not legal.” – al

    So you might now grasp that road tax is a “revenue generating policy of national government” and not an EU law?

    “Probably because they can clamp any car which is on the road illegally.” – Comrade Stalin

    Post a link to the UK law that says that a driver of an Irish-registered car must display a current tax disc on UK roads or his car will be clamped. Indeed, while you are doing that, try to figure out how such a law might apply to a driver of, for example, a Polish-registered car whose country does not issue tax discs.

    “Just out of curiosity…” – Comrade Stalin

    The Irish courts interpret the Irish law. The discretionary period is up to the judge to decide. Usually, the period is 14 days – after that, you need a very good excuse. The motor tax office neither makes nor interprets Irish law, so it has nothing whatsoever to do with their discretion.

  • The Raven

    “The complain about the taxes [on this blog, road tax]”

    I complain about road tax because of the manner it is collected! Work out the relevant amount to be added to a litre of petrol, have your point of collection at the forecourt, and bang! No more fines, no more rushing to the tax office, and a reduction or redeployment of several hundred civil servants.

    Can anybody help me out with why this isn’t the case…? Seriously, like? If there’s a flaw, I’d love to know what it is…

  • Dave

    By the way, Comrade, in case you are wondering why I asked you to produce a link to the UK law that you claimed she violated: that’s because Her Majesty’s police force does not implement the law of another sovereign jurisdiction.

    So, remember now, no links to UK laws that declare that drivers of UK-registered cars must pay duty to Her Majesty’s Treasury or their car may be clamped. The claim you made is that there is a UK law that declares that drivers of Irish-registered cars must pay tax to the Irish government or their car may be clamped in the UK.

    Good luck with that. 😉

  • Reader

    The Raven: Can anybody help me out with why this isn’t the case…?
    Not everyone buys their fuel in the state where they keep their car and do most of their driving.

  • Dave

    “You broke the law. Tough.” – slug

    Slug, thank you for abiding by the laws of the Irish state and for cheerleading Her Majesty’s police force as they implement them in your sovereign jurisdiction. I never thought that unionists would choose to live by our laws but I was obviously wrong.

    Normal convention between sovereign states, however, is that law is also sovereign. That means, for example, that we in Ireland do not flog a visitor from Iran for not wearing a hijab in our jurisdiction even if that is the law in Iran. It is not our law. Likewise, if the Irish government passed a law that made it illegal for citizens not to wear a furry green hat on St Patrick’s Day, the UK would not arrest Irish people in the UK who fail to comply with that law since, rather obviously, Irish law does not apply in that jurisdiction.

    Now it is true that there is a law that requires UK car owners to pay road tax to Her Majesty’s Treasury. And as you point out, if Her Majesty’s citizens fail to comply with Her Majesty’s law, then there are legal consequences. But why does Her Majesty’s police force in Northern Ireland now apply Irish law in that jurisdiction? After all, it is Irish law that you claim she violated, since she has no duty to pay road tax to Her Majesty’s Treasury. No, she has a legal duty to pay tax to the Irish government because that is the Irish law.

    This shared future thing seems to be coming along rather nicely. Now all we need to do is pass a law in Ireland that makes it illegal not to put the road signs in Irish. Won’t it be so much fun when Her Majesty’s police force feels a similar duty to impose Irish law in that regard too?

  • joeCanuck

    I do hope that this blog is filed under the humour category.
    She broke the law but so did my wife when she was caught speeding and no amount of crying saved her either.
    JOC’s contribution is the funniest; how unseasonable.
    BTW I know that private vehicle enforcers are a bunch of pirates. One here in Ontario got sentenced to time in gaol for an unrelated offence and the other prisoners beat him up when they found out that he was the owner of such a company.

  • for deffs

    john o c didnt tell anyone that he has changed favourite chipshop

  • The Raven

    “Not everyone buys their fuel in the state where they keep their car and do most of their driving.”

    Do you mean that many Dover drivers, and the resultant hinterland population of Southern England, nip over to Calais for a fill-up…?

    There are 33 million vehicles on the roads of the UK, around 26 million of which are cars.

    Around 300,000 of them are in Northern Ireland. How many of them take a wee jaunt to Donegal or the other border counties for a fill up?

    And if there were around 100,000 of those vehicles, what impact on the overall tax take – given that the UK as a whole is losing out on that tax anyway, would that number of vehicles have on the 33 million fill-ups that sea-locked mainland Britain would yield….? An impact, that could be mitigated by a “rounding-up” of the amount put on a litre of petrol…?

  • aquifer

    “The woman owed no duty to display a NI Road tax certificate on her vehicle”

    Correct. An up to date ROI or other EU certificate would have been fine.

    But she took her chance and lost.

  • barnshee

    “She broke the law but so did my wife when she was caught speeding and no amount of crying saved her either”

    What UK law did she break? If none sue Baggot personally

    “8.“Not everyone buys their fuel in the state where they keep their car and do most of their driving.”

    Perfectly legal contents of vehicle running tank are safe

  • Garza

    Dave,

    Does this mean I can drive with no insurance in the Republic of Ireland? Fantastic! Can I drive drunk too?

  • The Gospel according to the PSNI in relation to southern shoppers……..

    Render unto God the things which are God’s, and unto Trevor the things that are Trevor’s

    …..and you know it’s just an income generating exercise.

  • To be driven temporarily in the U.K. a vehicle must have effective tax and insurance from the originating country. If the vehicles tax has expired insurance is also no longer valid so I hope this tax-dodger is chased after for driving without insurance also! I’m sure Rory Carr would agree given his previous comment.

    Submit word = justice! lol

  • “Sectarian’ or discriminatory? My arse!

    Obviously what is at work here is “zero tolerance”. And I see nothing wrong with that, particularly in the present tension in the North-West.

    Equally, I would predict and expect similar treatment from the French authorities. I recall for certain seeing something very similar in leaving the Calais ferry port at Calais (admittedly, on that occasion, the driver provoked the gendarme by queue-jumping).

    As Rory Carr, above, says, that’s all fair game. An untaxed vehicle is also uninsured. As one who has been, and hopes again to be a pedestrian in and around Derry, that somewhat concerns me.

    Clearly few here recall the dubious delights of the triptych and what involved if either jurisdiction was in a foul mood. Ah, you’ve all got it soft these days.

  • Dave

    “Does this mean I can drive with no insurance in the Republic of Ireland? Fantastic! Can I drive drunk too?” – Garza

    Are you related to Born Stupid by any chance?

    Pardon? Driving without insurance and driving while intoxicated are both offences under Irish law. Therefore, you would be under a duty to comply with Irish law.

    You would not, however, be under any duty under Irish law to pay tax to Her Majesty’s treasury or to comply with other UK laws while in Ireland. For example, if it is an offence under UK law to load more than two suitcases onto your roof rack but that is not an offence under Irish law, then you would not have committed any offence in this jurisdiction. Consequently, you would not have your car clamped in Ireland for breaking a UK law. As you beginning to grasp this sovereign law thingie now or will I go fetch the coloured crayons and maybe dig out an old Etch-O-Sketch too?

    I find it incredible (well, not really) that folks can be so thick as to fail to grasp that what is actually very simple. Because I’m very patient with those with special needs, I’ll try one last time to elucidate for the poor afflicted dunderheads.

    Let me see now…

    Now best to explain…

    Hmmmm…

    Okay… let’s try this:

    Let’s say two sovereign states have the same law (yes, I know this is what has confused you but stick with me on this and it might become clearer). Just because two sovereign states share the same law does not mean that the shared law is applicable in both states.

    No wait… still too confusing.

    Say, two states have a taxation policy of imposing a £10 tax on curly wigs. Still with me…?

    Now, say you buy your lovely curly wig in one state and wear it in another state, would you expect to have said lovely wig confiscated in that state if you did not pay your £10 tax in the other state? Yes or no? Well, you would expect that because you’re obviously thick but you’d be wrong to expect it because it is not the function of one state to impose the laws of the other state.

    Oh, I know you’re confused again now because it’s a ‘shared’ law in that both states have the same law even if the law that is applicable in one state isn’t applicable in the other.

    See, kid, the offence she (allegedly) committed is an offence under Irish law so the UK has no jurisdiction to punish her for the alleged offence. The UK’s version of the Irish law requires UK owners of UK cars to pay road tax to the UK government: it does not require Irish owners of Irish cars to pay road tax to the Irish government. There is no reciprocal duty on either state to ensure that car users pay taxes that are due in the other state.

    Now go start the short bus… and no drooling on the seats! 😉

  • Dave

    “An untaxed vehicle is also uninsured.” – Malcolm Redfellow

    Not the case. Her untaxed vechicle was insured. At any rate, she was not arrested for having no insurance and her car was not clamped for this reason, so this is irrelevant nonsense.

  • Cahal

    I don’t get it – what UK law did she break? Would a German driver also be cited, if for example they drove through London in a German registered car without valid vehicle tax?

  • heck

    The Northern Ireland police are sectarian bigots

    what’s next breaking news-the pope is catholic ?

  • Pigeon Toes

    Would anyone be happy to travel on public transport if it transpired that lack of valid certification also meant that the vehicle was also not insured?

    It happens…

  • igor

    “She should take it up with the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs.”

    They might be more inclined to help if she had paid her tax.

    Dave

    Can you please tell us what other laws Irish people should be exempt from in this country? And is it only residents of the Republic who are exempt or are all those who live here but claim to be Irish included too?

  • igor

    “Any breach of the Republic’s requirements as to Road Tax certificates are a matter for that jurisdiction.”

    When in a different country ie the UK, local laws apply. Her car wasn’t taxed. she is liable

  • Cahal, please read my previous post to see why the German vehicle driver would also be liable.

  • Rory Carr

    “An untaxed vehicle is also uninsured.” – Malcolm Redfellow

    “Not the case” indeed, Malcolm as Dave has already pointed out. In the UK it is necessary to produce a valid insurance certificate and MOT certificate in order to renew one’s Road Licence Fund disc and, while the failure to hold a valid MOT certificate may invalidate one’s insurance, the failure to have current Road Licence Fund cover does not.

  • Pigeon Toes

    Rory,

    Presumably becuase you could have a vehicle which does not use public roads, or has been declared “off road”, but the owner/keeper might still wish to have said vehicle insured.

  • Neil

    Seems severe if it were only slightly out of date. I got pulled at the bottom of the Grosvenor cause my disc was about 6 months out of date, I asked him to put the details into the computer (as it was a new car and I’d been told it was taxed til November by the dealer) and luckily enough it was about 10 days out of date. So they let me on my way with a warning to have tax straight away, which I sensibly went to get straight away luckily enough as I was checked the following day.

    So to any southern folk reading, just say you only got the car and it is taxed, you just lost your disc, or the incorrect disc is in your window, and ask them to check the computer. Cause they can’t, and they’d have to let ye go I reckon. Fuck ’em anyway, if you’re a month out of date then you deserve what you get, you play the game some you win etc. but anything less than 2 weeks is petty I reckon.

  • Neil

    JOC,

    Do not judge, or you too will be judged

  • Rory

    It might not necessary be the case that an untaxed vehicle is uninsured but statistics prove it often is, for when the insurance runs out it is impossible to get a tax disc in both the UK and Ireland.

    I agree with you clamping piracy has long been a scandal, in my area one of these companies is run by a well known criminal clan, who pull the most outrageous strokes to get their clamps on vehicles. Although such outfits mainly work on private spaces, Pub and super market carparks, that type of thing.

    I have no problems really with the police, which ever jurisdiction they come from, targeting foreign vehicles. Indeed my grip is they seem to do this so rarely. It would be interesting to know the outcome of the purge of Irish plates, how many vehicles turned out to be untaxed and uninsured and no MOT certificate.

    Driving around the M25 these days has become a deadly nightmare due to the number of foreign owned, left hand drive lorries, most of which have a very dangerous blind spot. I was run off the road by a lorry which was ‘registered in the Ukraine.’ It took my insurance company over a year and a half to settle my claim, due to them having difficulties gaining insurance details etc from the Haulage firm. During that time I lost my no claims, etc and some how had to find the cash to replace my car.

  • igor

    Would a German driver also be cited, if for example they drove through London in a German registered car without valid vehicle tax?

    yes

  • dub

    This action by the PSNI was plainly illegal. She should sue them for every penny.

    Dave, well done. Unfortunately most people here just do not understand the legal issues. There would also be the tendency to regard british law as extraterritorial in effect.

  • Dave, don’t bother.

    Some here are so blinded that they’ll never see past that fact that the lady was from the south and therefore should have been treated in any way deemed by The Trevor.

    The proper (unbiased/objective/fair) interpretation of the law has never been upheld in the O-6 and you can see this in some of the postings on this thread. Many have entered this thread with the mind-set that the lady was guilty and then posted from this starting point.

    Kinda enlightening in a sad kinda way. Good work on your part tho’

  • OC

    Where I live in the States, we have to renew our registration every year – we pay a fee, and get a new dated sticker. We have to have a current insurance card before we can renew the registration. We also have to have an annual vehicle inspection – we pay a fee for this, and get a new dated sticker.

    If we’re out of date on any of these three items, we get a ticket, at the minimum. Cars from other jurisdictions have to have valid registration and inspection stickers, and a valid insurance card from their home states, otherwise they might even be arrested.

    As for driver’s licenses: if presented past the expiration date, not only can lead to arrest if driving, but are even refused as valid ID.

    The article read, “she was waiting for her insurance certificate to come through”. Does this mean that she wasn’t insured?

    Is the “RoI vehicle tax” a yearly registration event?

    Sounds like she was deficient in these two categories.

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    Do not judge, or you too will be judged

    With justice he judges and makes war. (Rev 19:11)

  • Neil

    John,

    are you an idiot? The book of revelations:

    With justice he judges and makes war

    The He in question is accepted as being Christ, and yes, we know He judges. The point contained in my earlier post is that we as mere human’s should not judge.

    And you’d be pressed to find a theologist to disagree with any of that. So perhaps you’re not so ingenious with religious matters as you pretend to be.

    You do judge people, in contravention of the teachings of the bible. So perhaps you’d better stick to pissing around with pointless numerical cyphers and leave the god bothering to those who understand and know the bible.

    Unless of course you can point out where we as Catholics are encouraged to judge the behaviour of other Christians (which is the preserve of God and God alone).

    JOC – Bullshitter.

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    Unless of course you can point out where we as Catholics are encouraged to judge the behaviour of other Christians (which is the preserve of God and God alone).

    God delegates judgement to one of us, a human being made God, a Christ.

    Did nobody tell you that I am he? I hope I don’t shock you or disappoint you.

  • Neil

    a human being made God

    Well we can agree on something at least.