Onward to the Kennedy Health Bill?

In passing, it looks like Danny was rightLobbying for the Kennedy Bill begins

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  • susan

    If not for Senator Kennedy’s hard slog to pass the Family and Medical Leave Act and COBRA, one of my daughters would simply not be alive and well today.

    Frankly, I don’t mind if they call it the Kiss Smug Insulated Endlessly Self-Referencing and Self Congratulatory Neoconservative Arse Till Your Lips Bleed Bill if it means some sort of meaningful reform becomes law and a public option brings more competitive prescription drug pricing and access to care for those left vulnerable by chronic health conditions, circumstances of birth, low to moderate household income or the shifts in the economy.

    And Senator Kennedy would not have minded, either.

  • David Vance

    Teddy’s parting gift – socialised healthcare. He just kept giving, what a guy.

  • Comrade Stalin

    David,

    I assume you steer well clear of NHS hospitals then ?

  • latcheeco

    I assume Dave boy is also opposed to socialised armies, socialised mail, socialised space exploration, socialised paying for marching season etc. etc. etc.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    “Teddy’s parting gift – socialised healthcare. He just kept giving, what a guy.”

    Another Unionist sarky remark……. as usual.

    Kennedy must have done some good then!

  • susan

    Difficult as it may be for many to fathom, here in America, the question of whether accessible healthcare is a privilege or a right is very much open to debate. Senator Kennedy famously, forthrightly, and forever maintained it was a right — to others, it is genuinely an open question.

    If you believe healthcare is a right, mind-bendingly difficult decisions must be made on how to finance accessible — I say accessible because free would further cripple a buckling US economy — healthcare for so many millions of uninsured or underinsured families.

    If on the other hand you believe healthcare is a privilege for those who can afford it, have the moral and intellectual honesty to own the consequences — preventable deaths, disabilities and incalcuable human suffering due to inadequate access to care. To children who lose parents in their prime and parents who lose children who could and should have been saved by prevention or early detection and care, I do not know what solace there may be in knowing they were deprived of a loved one not by war, not by terrorism, not merely by a cruel twist of fate, but because they hadn’t money in their pockets to prevent or to recover from catastrophe.

    Gragoir, many of those standing outside the Kennedy Library yesterday waiting to sign the condolence books had personal stories of how Senator Kennedy’s intervention — directly or through legislation — changed their lives, helped or brought real comfort to their families. The implacable moral guardians of the right and left will have their say, and so they should. Harsh words — some deserved, some not — do not diminish the good he did accomplish for those of us whose lives benefited directly from the Senator’s accomplishments and interventions. Nor can they take away the satisfaction the Senator so obviously found in a life that was in the end defined and remembered more by what he was for, rather than the Irish disease of reserving the lion’s share of one’s clarity and energy for opposing what one is against.

    I appreciated that. I benefited from that. I will try to keep it in mind going forward.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    susan: “If you believe healthcare is a right, mind-bendingly difficult decisions must be made on how to finance accessible—I say accessible because free would further cripple a buckling US economy—healthcare for so many millions of uninsured or underinsured families. ”

    If you listen Ezekial Emmanuel’s brother, the solution will simply be to alter the Hippocratic Oath — he complains that doctors take it too seriously — worry less about the patient and more about how much this treatment will cost the community. If your treatment has a less than optimal cost-to-community benefit, mayhap you’ll get palliative care, rather than treatment.

    “Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity—those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations—are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Covering services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic, and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” (Hastings Center Report, November-December, 1996)

    Most folks I know who are against this socialistic boondoggle are less against for philosophic reasons or economic reasons and are most against it because of the government’s track record in “public options” — Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc. Likewise, a “public option” insurer would be simply an incremental step to single payor, since the “public option” would never have to break even, let alone make a profit, with any losses being subsidized from the public coffers, ala the Post Office.

  • Comrade Stalin.

    I try to – since they are so lethal. That said, since I am forced to pay tax to keep the socialist experiment alive, why should I not use them?

    Now, back to Teddy, the champion of those who had none. Excluding the Kopechne family, obviously. Not really much of a champion there, was he?

    The liberal media sanctification of this IRA loving socialist pandering wife cheating hard boozing intern drowning hypocrite has been nauseating. The Slugger tributes are not a surprise.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    David Vance: “Now, back to Teddy, the champion of those who had none. Excluding the Kopechne family, obviously. Not really much of a champion there, was he?”

    Ah, but, in some quarters, they posit that maybe, just maybe, Mary Jo would say her “sacrifice” was worth it and that Teddy, by dint of not becoming president, was “punished enough” for his failure.

    Frankly, had he not been the youngest son of Papa Joe, had he been Edward Moore and not Edward Moore Kennedy, the end of this tale would have been far harder on Fast Eddie.

    Ted Kennedy — a good senator, but a lousy date.

  • latcheeco

    Dread,
    Comedy gold! I’m sure you also agree that the reluctance to accept another govt. program is based in part on an unspoken fear among certain sections of society (of one color) that, like their perception of other govt. programs, they are going to be paying for certain people (of another color) to sit back and play for free. A fear compounded by their belief that the whole thing is the brainchild of a moslem alien.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    latcheeco: “I’m sure you also agree that the reluctance to accept another govt. program is based in part on an unspoken fear among certain sections of society (of one color) that, like their perception of other govt. programs, they are going to be paying for certain people (of another color) to sit back and play for free.”

    Ah, the smarmy, thinly veiled insinuation of racism, meant to make up for the lack of a cogent argument.

    Color doesn’t enter into it, latcheeco — the free-loader issue arises anytime you socialize a problem, regardless of color, creed or what-have you. Hell, the French even figured out how to do it for national defense for a couple decades, with their withdrawal from NATO.

    latcheeco: “A fear compounded by their belief that the whole thing is the brainchild of a moslem alien. ”

    The “birther” business is a cute academic question, but that’s about all — frankly, he’s the only thing between the world and the phrase “Joe Biden, leader of the free world” and bless him thrice for that.

    Social programs get pushed on the basis of their good intentions and not their actual efficacy, at least in the US. The war on poverty was a failure, the socialization of the American dream of home ownership via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac left a smoking crater in the economy — on the basis of the government success rate, what rational person would want the government involved in their relationship with their physician, especially on the terms that Presidential adviser Emmanuel (Ezekial, not Rahm) has been discussing?

  • latcheeco

    Dread,
    Why smarmy? And it wasn’t thinly veiled. Did you miss the “in part” bit? Are you denying it’s a motivation for many on the Right? Perhaps many of the same people who fled to the suburbs to avoid other shades? We both know race is a huge unspoken factor in the debate and to pretend it’s not as much of a motivation as “cogent” arguments is disingenuous. The Right abandoned cogent arguments in favor of stopping reform at any cost. I think when your side turns up sporting AR 15’s in a democracy it’s proof you had few arguments.

    But keep on pulling for huge insurance monopolies. What with some of the highest infant mortality rates in the western world and the humane idea that healthcare is only a privilege for those who can afford it, oh, and those insurance company life or death based on profit panels that have been the reality for Americans for years.

    What rational person would want an insurance executive whose primary motivation is profit between them and their doctor (it’s bad enough when doctor’s see dollar signs when you walk in). It’s clearly the pinnacle of endeavor for a nation founded on indelible rights.

    BTW. Why keep harping on the guy’s name? I thought your team liked the yids and were facing the ever imminent armageddon with them as brothers in arms. And I wouldn’t worry about old Joe, considering the genius with the seccessionist spouse who the Right wanted to put a heartbeat away instead, yall got off easy.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    latcheeco: “Why smarmy? And it wasn’t thinly veiled. Did you miss the “in part” bit?”

    Nope. Did you miss the “to make up for the lack of a cogent argument?”

    latcheeco: “Are you denying it’s a motivation for many on the Right? Perhaps many of the same people who fled to the suburbs to avoid other shades?”

    Do you think that color of the free-loader is more important that there is a free-loader?

    As for white flight, what, do you think that minorities with money stay in the less desirable neighborhoods at any higher rates than whites?

    latcheeco: “We both know race is a huge unspoken factor in the debate and to pretend it’s not as much of a motivation as “cogent” arguments is disingenuous. The Right abandoned cogent arguments in favor of stopping reform at any cost. I think when your side turns up sporting AR 15’s in a democracy it’s proof you had few arguments.”

    Um, latcheeco, I hate to rattle your blind sterotyping with factual information, but the fella toting the AR-15 at the rally was a black man, and not everybody who is against this program is on “the right.” The guy is a libertarian, which, at least in the states, covers a world of sins.

    http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PHXBeat/60504

    Latcheeco: “But keep on pulling for huge insurance monopolies.”

    The insurance industry is highly regulated by government, from rate-setting to mandated coverage and compete with one another. No monopolies, although the liquid resources necessary do raise barriers to new entrants to the market.

    latcheeco: “those insurance company life or death based on profit panels that have been the reality for Americans for years.”

    And who created the HMO, latcheeco? Whose bright idea was that again?? (Hint: they were created via an act of legislation.) The only medical notion that successfully exited Congress dumber than the HMO was the Medicare HMO, for reasons that should be obvious.

    latcheeco: “What rational person would want an insurance executive whose primary motivation is profit between them and their doctor (it’s bad enough when doctor’s see dollar signs when you walk in). It’s clearly the pinnacle of endeavor for a nation founded on indelible rights.”

    And one of Ezekial Emmanuel’s “community boards” would be an improvement, what with him saying that the Hippocratic Oath needs to be taken less seriously and with an eye towards “community impact?”

    latcheeco: “Why keep harping on the guy’s name? I thought your team liked the yids and were facing the ever imminent armageddon with them as brothers in arms.”

    This is where the whole “lack of a cogent argument” comes in, Latcheeco. It isn’t his name I dislike, it is the bad idea he’s pushing. Since you don’t have any better arguments, you just slime in with innuendo and smarmy comments. Your grasp of politics is limited to some simple Zoroastrian “good/bad” equation where Left = good and Right = bad and questions and fact are strictly optional commodities.

    latcheeco: “And I wouldn’t worry about old Joe, considering the genius with the seccessionist spouse who the Right wanted to put a heartbeat away instead, yall got off easy. ”

    She lost, ergo, no one has a need to worry about her for three more years… and you obviously haven’t gotten to hear Joe speak with any frequency. He’s so far gone he doesn’t grasp that part of his job is to not contradict his boss.

  • Latcheeco

    Whereas the previous resident of the Naval Observatory got mixed up and thought he was the boss 🙂 And the most recent Republican nominee clearly wasn’t quite sure what the VP actually did according to the Constitution.

    Actually I don’t think a person’s color is important at all. It’s clearly not an issue on this side of the fence. But I see you haven’t outrightly denied race is a major motivation in the debate. Just offered a token as an example. Another Michael Steele, ‘they’ve got a midget, we need a midget”moment.

    Yes he was a black man, so what? Lone black man was at right wing rally so… race isn’t a factor? Come on Dread? One swallow doesn’t make a summer.

    He was on the right as most libertarians are in American politics.What was the percentage of black people who voted for the President compared to those who voted against him? Race is an issue. And the fact that there is a black president is motivating much of the histrionics in this debate.

    As for Zoroastrian ? Sorry wrong again! Catholic conservative. I tilt to the right on many issues: abortion, 2nd amendment (just paid this year’s NRA dues)etc. but not on healthcare or corporate theivery (which, of course, you will no doubt somehow contend, is also the government’s fault) or the recent propensity to elect jibbering idiots to the White House.

    So I don’t really fit your arrogant stereotype. But thanks for asking. Keep making your snotty, self-righteous assumptions and dreaming of a simplistic world where problems are solved with bull horns and sniper teams 🙂

    By the way as far as I know you haven’t offered your solution to the current healthcare mess. I presume you are then still in favor of the health and well being of other Americans staying primarily an issue of profit.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    latcheeco: “Whereas the previous resident of the Naval Observatory got mixed up and thought he was the boss 🙂 ”

    Shucks and other comments… something we agree on.

    latcheeco: “Actually I don’t think a person’s color is important at all. It’s clearly not an issue on this side of the fence. But I see you haven’t outrightly denied race is a major motivation in the debate.”

    Latcheeco, if you need it spelled out plainly, it doesn’t figure into my calculations. It doesn’t figure into the overwhelming number of my friends and associated and acquaintances verbal comments.

    Besides, *which* party has the only Klukker in the Senate?

    Latcheeco: “es he was a black man, so what? Lone black man was at right wing rally so… race isn’t a factor? Come on Dread? One swallow doesn’t make a summer.”

    I’m not the mental midget who has to make racial insinuations to make up for the lack of a cogent economic argument.

    Right now, the US is at the tipping point — the number of folks who pay taxes vs. those who collect transfer payments are just about split down the middle. Another major entitlement will tip the whole shebang ass over teakettle — if Bush running year to year deficits in the hundreds of billions was bad, how is running a trillion dollar a year deficit for the next ten years supposed to be a good thing?

    latcheeco: “As for Zoroastrian ? Sorry wrong again! Catholic conservative.”

    Metaphor, simile and rhetorical speech are lost on the likes you, aren’t they?

    latcheeco: “I tilt to the right on many issues: abortion, 2nd amendment (just paid this year’s NRA dues)etc. but not on healthcare or corporate theivery (which, of course, you will no doubt somehow contend, is also the government’s fault) or the recent propensity to elect jibbering idiots to the White House.”

    Hardly. I’d like to see the whole of the welfare state — individual and corporate, foreign (The Congress is sending billions to subsidize Brazilian oil exploration with cheap loans and preventing it domestically…)wound down.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574346610120524166.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#printMode

    When individuals break the law, they should feel the full force of the law. When a company breaks the law, they should also feel the full weight of the law. The one thing I’d like to see, for entirely different reasons, is a Swedish style system of fines for both individual and corporations.

    latcheeco: “So I don’t really fit your arrogant stereotype.”

    No, you simply missed the point.

    As for stereotyping, mayhap you should address the plank in your own eye before you worry about other folks problems.

    latcheeco: “Keep making your snotty, self-righteous assumptions and dreaming of a simplistic world where problems are solved with bull horns and sniper teams :)”

    Says the smarmy little ass who, to make up for an inability to debate, insinuates that those who don’t agree with him are racists? Physician, heal thyself.

    latcheeco: “By the way as far as I know you haven’t offered your solution to the current healthcare mess. I presume you are then still in favor of the health and well being of other Americans staying primarily an issue of profit. ”

    For starters, one doesn’t need a solution in one’s hip-pocket to know that handing 1/6th of the economy to the people who gave you the DMV, the IRS and the Post Office is a bad idea. Ironically, my personal fortunes would be best served with the passage of this bill. Pretty much would guarantee my lifetime employment.

    I’d like to see a system where a body could get old-fashioned catastrophic care policies without them being larded up with mandates from the state. I’d like to see health insurance set up more like auto insurance — you don’t expect your auto policy to pay for your tires and oil changes, there is no reason that health insurance should pay for every little thing. I’d like to see the Federal regulations that force healthcare providers to give private payors the most disadvantaged position rolled back and some common sense applied to the problem, rather than trying to ram through a multi-trillion dollar program being rushed through on in a couple weeks time without serious debate. I’d like to see the layers of corporate and government that muck about in the relationship between the physician and the patient pared back, if not eliminated.

    The problem is that, as insurance became common, the doctor went from a solid career to a country-club and Jaguar career. They’ll not want to change the scenario. The insurers make plenty of money, so they like the status quo. The government names the tune — creating HMOs and then running against them when their own creations were demonstrated to be a bigger problem than the one they were created to solve.

    Frankly, the whole doctor/lawyer/politician/insurer relationship needs broken up.

    Now a question for you — do you know how insurance rates are set?

  • latcheeco

    Dread,
    Where I am, it’s a huge motivation. And my original post was not directed at you personally but it clearly walloped a nerve judging by your little girly hissy fit of a response. And six three aint little chief.

    My point was that rascism is a big factor. You completely missed that and thought you personally were being accused of being David Duke.

    I think your charges on mental dexterity are unfair though, I’m more at fault for arguing with an idiot and people then not knowing the difference

    In fairness to Byrd he did stand up against the war and as far as I know hasn’t burnt a cross since the ’40’s. Oh and did you notice the first brother president is a dem.

    Shit are you saying you didn’t really think I was a Zoroastrian…thanks for clarifying. If I don’t do metaphorical flourishes you don’t do irony even if your self-declared genius is wasted sitting on blogs. But enough unpleasantness and hysterics.

    We actually aren’t as far apart as you think. Doctors and lawyers have created a new aristocracy in a country ostensibly working to remove the notion.

    As regards car insurance models..perhaps but too many of us have dealt with the same companies over hurricanes etc. and unbridled they are pure evil. Oh and they just posted record profits but can’t pay out on Katrina in Mississippi and Louisiana.

    My insurance is probably amongst the best but then again the govt. negotiates it. And before you jump I also have a business when I’m not protecting you.

    They aren’t split down the middle in earnings as far as I know. The top 10% still makes more than the rest of the country put together.

    The economic argument is important Dread but for those who believe in the right to healthcare, if not now when? It’s not likely to get a better response in a buoyant economy either. The Right’s argument is diminished when blended with immigration, abortion and gun rights just to scare people. Thats what one does when one can’t form cogent arguments. And morality is an issue for some of us (i suspect you’ll find that smarmy and intellectually bereft because you don’t agree 🙂

    Return question: can you find one person who has medicaid or medicare who is willing to give it up?