46% of Northern Irish people believe immigrants are taking away jobs…

One thing that was not tested, or at least shown up in the negative result in last year’s Lisbon referendum was the extent to which anti immigration sentiment affected the overall decision. According to some anti Lisbon campaigners Slugger has spoken to, although it was barely a factor on the doorsteps it was something they had expected to encounter. But this year, in Northern Ireland, anti immigrant feeling is certainly present if not yet widely radicalised outside hotspots like Loyalist south Belfast. According to Reuters:

…nearly 50 percent of those polled in one survey believed migrant workers take jobs away from people born in Northern Ireland. Of the 1,215 adults interviewed between October 1, 2008 and February 27, 2009 for the Queen’s University Belfast and the University of Ulster, only 38 percent disagreed with that assertion: 46 percent were in favor.

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  • Sir,

    There is xenophobic language used within all communities and socio-economic groups in Northern Ireland. I witnessed this while home for a year recently.

    I feel that this eventuality is natural for a people who were boxed off from the rest of the UK for so long. Lets be honest, the influx of immigrants in Ireland gave many quite a shock.

    Many God fearing people found themselves in a position in which they felt uncomfortable; overnight they were working with blacks and eastern Europeans, a massive departure for even liberal Irish people.

    Post-war Northern Ireland is still in it’s infancy, and it is going to take long time for the people there to look outside their parish and embrace a world that is quickly diversifying and developing.

    It’s high time for people to start practicing some of their dearly beloved Christian values, instead of fearing the unknown.

    Time to grow up folks.

    Mike

    http://canyouwalkonthericepaper.blogspot.com/

  • Neil

    Many of the attacks against foreigners have been perpetrated in impoverished Protestant neighborhoods such as Skey’s South Belfast. Northern Irish Catholics are generally more open to foreigners, according to the universities’ survey.

    I recall suggesting that beforehand and being dismissed out of hand, but there you go, what you knew already. Catholics are less racist. Not perfect, obviously:

    Even among Catholics, however, not much more than half would accept as a close relative a Muslim or an Irish Traveler.

    I would say experience of having dealt with members of the travelling community may discourage many people in NI from accepting one as a close relative, (presumably they would become a close relative through marriage). I would say anti Muslim feeling would be more sparse in my community.

    “I tell everyone it’s worth coming to Belfast, it’s a really liveable place,” said Bernadett Haasz, an English language teacher from Budapest who works for a Belfast broadcaster.

    “One must know which neighborhoods to move into, but that’s the same in every city.”

    Obviously referring for about the third time in that article to the Village/South Belfast.

  • michael

    Belchings from certain MLA’s don’t help the problem.

    Rightly or wrongly, I assume that the 46% are probably working class, people who work alongside migrants, day in, day out, from coffee shops to chicken processing plants.

    A younger brother, who didn’t get as much out of the education system as I did, works with many migrants in a ‘factory job’ in Derry. The local and migrant workers mix freely both inside and outside of work, relationships are formed, friends are made, even a few babies and wedding plans have been made.

    I’ve been working in IT for 10 or so years, and migrant workers, be they from India, Spain or eastern Europe get the cold shoulder from the local workforce in almost every company I have worked for, both here and in England.
    They are often hated (I don’t use that word lightly) by local programmers and pressured and exploited by project managers.

    I have been asked to stand in on client meetings with potential customers in the place of, quite frankly, better/smarter Indian staff because the company wanted to look like it was staffed by local boys.

    Two kinda extreme contrasts I know.

    I once heard that it takes 15-20 years for migrant workers to move from low paid/unskilled work to traditionally ‘middle class’ positions in a country.

    IT would be an exception as anyone with a little hard work and aptitude can become a fairly well paid, if IT is anything to go by, the hostility towards migrant workers is as strong amoung the better educated as it is amoung those who have never seen the inside of a uni.

  • DC

    ‘Belching from our MLAs’ dontcha just mean Sammy Wilson’s TV Burps?

  • Zoon

    Would it not be fair to say that in times of economic prosperity natives were happy for migrant workers to take minimum wage jobs – and some employers where more than prepared to exploit them for their keenness to do that job. Now that the tide of economic prosperity has lowered the xenophobia is indeed being exploited by some – remember how the demagogue Paisley rose to prominence in the 1960s etc.!
    This society has been so used to hiding its baggage under the lawful terms such as ‘community’ instead of just admitting that we have been hot-wired to be sectarian, maybe its not our fault as our leaders are not ours but either your community or mine.

    Then let’s not forget how we take more of the Exchequer per head that the rest of the UK vis-à-vis the Barnett formula, which may be amended soon, the proportionally higher numbers of workers here in the public sector and those claiming benefits due to little white lies that many will do basing their belief on the premise that either they earn a better living on the black economy and/or think ‘sure Mr Orange/Green’ does it and he doesn’t get caught. How many of us turn a blind eye?

    Has any one doesn’t what a litre of petrol costs now?!

  • kensei

    michael

    I never seen any hostility to migrant workers that are actually working in the same company in IT. Off shore workers in host companies yes. But that is because they are typically of variable quality and can drive you to distraction.

  • Neil

    Also in a large IT firm, and I would say that the racist jokes are commonplace. I don’t think anyone reckons they’re losing their jobs to immigrants here (though I think some 20% of the company is non native), and there is most definitely more ill feeling towards the off shore crowd (as you say Kensei usually cause they won’t answer the f*cking phone or for some other incompetence). But there is a lot of casual racism/homophobia amongst the ‘lads’ (which this being IT is 70% of us).

  • michael

    Kensei

    In one large IT company in Belfast I worked for, migrant workers were seen by many as some sort of scouting division, ‘over here’ to skill up and go back and train off shore workers who would ‘steal our jobs’.

    captcha is ‘race’
    freaky

  • Drumlins Rock

    “…nearly 50 percent of those polled in one survey believed migrant workers take jobs away from people born in Northern Ireland.”
    Lies, damm lies, and statistics, lets be a bit pedantic here lets say out of the thousands of foreign nationals who have come to work here just two of them took the jobs of two NI locals, possibly because they were alot better qualified and the NI guys were crap at their jobs, (i’m just talking hypertheically here not casting sterotypes!) if that was the case then the statement is true, migrant workers have taken NI workers jobs, therefore it is a fact!
    BUT !!! acknowledging a fact does not make you racist, in the vast number of cases the immigrants are filling jobs that the locals do not want, or there are not sufficient locals qualified to do those jobs, they are essential to the local ecomony and generally welcome.
    So please please take all surveys with a pinch of salt.

  • kensei

    Drumlin

    It’s more complicated than that. For example, if you are at full employment, if the immigrant doesn’t come here then it’s likely the job isn’t created.

  • michael

    If an ‘off-shore’ guy could sort out this website’s horrific navigation ‘standards’, he can move next door to me and marry my imaginary sister.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Thats what im sorta getting at Kensei, its alot more complicated than some vague survey makes out, I know locally with the food industry here it would not survive without the MWs, and some would say they have replaced the locals, which is true to an extent, but it far outweighed by spin off jobs those industries create, not to mention they are vital to the agricultural industry.
    So the reality is there is a bit of truth in every statement, its hitting the right balance for everyones good.

  • Only asking.

    I believe there is an awful lot of confusion surrounding immigration, which has mainly two types, those from within Europe, and those from without. Those who come from within Europe, thats like say moving from one US state to another, due to the EU, but what is the need for those from without, especially at a time of economic recession?

    How many of the immigrants who come from outside the EU actually come for economic reasons anyway? Not too many, they come for ‘family reunion’ and asylum. All at a cost to the tax payer.

    According to Christopher Cdldwell,:

    One of the amazing statistics in the history of European immigration is that the number of foreign residents in Germany rose steadily between 1971 and 2000 – from 3 million to 7.5 million, but the number of employed foreigners did not budge. It stayed rock steady at two million people. In 1973 65% of German immigrants were in the work force, in 1983 a decade later only 38% were.

    So how are they surviving? Benefits, and that is at a cost to the taxpayer imv.

    Those who mostly benefit from immigration, are immigrants, the host society gets very little out of it. Most immigrants set up industries that suit themselves, like the Polish newspapers in Dublin, nine of them I believe there are. Who else would read them except Polish immigrants?

    Also who actually benefits from immigration if we consider the cost of the management of diversity?
    According to Christopher Caldwell’s book “reflections on the REVOLUTION in Europe”, the Oxford demographer Coleman, says:

    the total cost of the integration process and of the associated immigration and race relations business, the costs of meeting the special education, health, and housing needs of immigrants, the net effects upon the education of ordinary children in immigrant areas , the permanent need to ‘regenerate’ urban areas of immigrant settlement instead of demolishing them, issues of crime and public order, [and] the multiplier effect on future immigration.

    This of course does not take into account the cultural price that the host society has to pay for the price of diversity. NI is bound to follow the mistakes of Britain and Europe, and soon we will see colonized enclaves all over the north with running battles with disaffected youth like they have in France, or Lozells type battles instead of sectarian ones.

    We definitely need a debate on immigration, with some clear thinking and plain talking instead of moving forward aimlessly to a point where there could be a situation of this sort. Do we really need so many immigrants at a time of economic recession? Since Britain is a borderless country do we have a choice? Not really, theres little hope of a gap in immigration to allow society to get to grips with it, we’re doomed to walk in the same failed footsteps of Britain and Europe.

  • only asking

    filling jobs that the locals do not want,

    This is pure shite, a large immigrant pool of labour will push down wages, and can make it economically difficult or impossible for locals to take these (manual)jobs. This is the sort of double thinking people are fed to make immigration look attractive.

  • Davros

    “In one large IT company in Belfast I worked for, migrant workers were seen by many as some sort of scouting division, ‘over here’ to skill up and go back and train off shore workers who would ‘steal our jobs’. ”

    Plus ce change, thats what some of my now ex-colleagues said when lots of NIrish people started appearing in Canary Wharf for 6 week assignments before heading back to the new ‘centre of excellence’ in Titanic Quarter. And they were right.

  • michael

    Work in shittybank Davros? 😉

  • only asking

    “One must know which neighborhoods to move into, but that’s the same in every city

    In other words nationalist areas will have to make room despite previous threads on slugger showing nationalist wards are among some of the most under funded, and the housing lists in these areas will grow longer making it more difficult for nationalists to be housed in public sector housing…. this will simply shift the ‘racist’ boot on to the other foot.

  • Neil

    filling jobs that the locals do not want,

    This is pure shite, a large immigrant pool of labour will push down wages

    Two things. National minimum wage does not change dependant on the make up of the work force, and that wage is by far the most common one offered here, especially for the types of jobs you’re talking about. So that is, to paraphrase, pure shite. The wages remain the same, piss poor, regardless of who does the job.

    Secondly, in my experiences with helping run the family business, which currently has a work force of roughly 50% eastern European, 50% NI, would I seek to employ a slack jawed, lazy local who thinks they are doing me a favour by coming to work, when I can hire motivated, hard working and intelligent Czechs or Poles who think that I’m doing them a favour by giving them work?

    Neither is that true, no one is doing any one any favours in work, the employer pays, the employee works end of story. But I’ve seen far too many locals who were thick, shit lazy, piss poor attitude generally and less loyal to the business.

    Also your earlier assertion, much heard, is that they take our benefits. FUCKING LIES. Immigrants are not entitled to benefits here. They have to work, unlike the majority of lazy fuckin locals who have come through my doors seemingly with the intent of treating my customers like shit and complaining about the job they said they wanted in the first place.

  • bootman

    By the way, in reference to one of the opening assertions immigration was indeed cited as a resaon for voting NO in the official research. A whopping 1 or 2% mentioned it apparently

  • OC

    Last year, a major meat-cutting operation in west Texas was raided by immigration authorities.

    So many illegal aliens were rounded up that the plant had to close until legitimate workers were found. And that didn’t take very long at all.

    Most of the illegals were from Mexico. They knew a good thing when they found it. So when illegal aliens from Guatamala tried to get in on it, the illegal Mexicans attacked them and drove them from the area.

    In high tech industries, many highly trained and experienced workers were laid off, and replaced by H1B visa workers from Asia. Why? Because they were paid less, in violation of the law I might add.

    In both cases, it led to less workforce diversity, too.

  • only asking

    which currently has a work force of roughly 50% eastern European, 50% NI,

    They aren’t immigrants, thats movement of labour within the EU you stupid ignorant moral exhibitionist!

    FUCKING LIES

    Asylum seekers don’t get benefits? Immigrants who come for family reasons, and all the other non economic reasons and don’t end up in the work force, how do they live. By government largesse thats how! Prove its fucking lies moron. If it is ‘fucking lies’ then explain the German stats provided, otherwise go read a little and stop trying to be a moral exhibitionist when in reality you are nothing more than someone who puts his ignorance on show for all to see.

  • Neil

    They aren’t immigrants, thats movement of labour within the EU you stupid ignorant moral exhibitionist!

    They aren’t immigrants? How about buying a dictionary. For those so dim as to not know what an immigrant is (I suspect this will be of use to only one person on this board):

    a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to settle there

    There you go only asking, you’re marginally more intelligent now than you were when we started the discussion.

    Asylum seekers don’t get benefits?

    Yes they do. At present they make up 0.43% of total benefits claimants, so it’s entirely irrelevant. Especially in the context of immigrants ‘stealing our jobs’.

    Immigrants who come for family reasons, and all the other non economic reasons and don’t end up in the work force, how do they live.

    Now what the fuck are you on about. Immigrants who come for family reasons? Like what pray tell. You’re the first to have mentioned ‘family reason immigration’ and why I am to assume that your brand new category of immigrant does not work for a living. In any case, they would not legally be entitled to benefits.

    Whatabout all the other non economic reasons and they don’t end up in the work force I hear you whine, well, whatabout it? You have provided no evidence, no anything to support the idea that vast numbers of people, not legally able to claim benefits are here, claiming benefits. You are telling lies.

    If it is ‘fucking lies’ then explain the German stats provided

    LOL you must be that fucking stupid that you believe that twenty year old stats from Germany prove anything whatsoever in 21st century Northern Ireland. They prove nothing. Any gods number of factors would influence the ease with which immigrants to Germany between 73 and 83 couldn’t get a job, but it still means fuck all to the situation here.

  • Clown

    Slugger went to great lengths a few days ago to reinforce the point that Gerry Adams’ Westminster constituency has an employmet rate of over 15%. So if a non-NI person is here doing a job, how are they doing anything other than taking away jobs? This is true regardless of whether or not some of the unemployed would want to work in the jobs carried out by immigrants.

    By the way, what are the Roma Gypsies who returned up to now work-wise?

  • David

    This racism thing is difficult to keep up with. Let’s get this straight:

    1. If I think that immigrants are here to work and therefore to take jobs that would go to Northern Irish people – well that is “racist”. OK

    2. If, on the other hand, I think that they are not here to work and are here to get benefits instead, well that seems to be “racist” too.

    So the only non-racist option is to think that immigrants are all just here as tourists?

    Good to know that lurid and exaggerated allegations of racism are not distorting the immigration debate.

  • only asking

    I referenced:

    Germany rose steadily between 1971 and 2000

    You (the fool) wrote:

    LOL you must be that fucking stupid that you believe that twenty year old stats from Germany prove anything whatsoever in 21st century Northern Ireland.

    Twenty years old, yet they mention 2000, Idiot!

    They aren’t immigrants? How about buying a dictionary.
    …a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to settle there

    How about going beyond the basic dictionary to find out what citizenship is?

    After the second world war it was relatively easy to become a European citizen…duh do you know why???? Britain dissolved a whole empire of of more than half a billion people and did not define clear citizenship criteria. They tried to do it in 1948 with the nationality act of that year, not by defining what a citizen was, but by defining what a non citizen was. In europe citizen ship could be defined by soil or blood. Therefore somone who simply leaves one country to settle in another is not a definition of ‘immigrant’, except in your jeuvenile world. Maybe if you understood hbow the EU is meant to work, basically someone who leaves Poland to work in your shitty job is not classed as an immigrant because he left Poland to come to NI, because his citizenship is defined by ‘soil’. He is on European soil within the EU, but don’t let facts get in the way of your ignorance will you .

    Now what the fuck are you on about. Immigrants who come for family reasons? Like what pray tell. You’re the first to have mentioned ‘family reason immigration’

    What-a-load-of-utter-bollocks!

    Sure I invented ‘family reasons’. Do not immigrants have the right to family life, and can bring with them in to a country their spouse and children? O now I made it all up….. nice display of ignorance there….

    Whatabout all the other non economic reasons and they don’t end up in the work force I hear you whine, well, whatabout it? You have provided no evidence, no anything to support the idea that vast numbers of people, not legally able to claim benefits are here, claiming benefits. You are telling lies.

    You are the liar, and most importantly of all, a believer of lies.

    page 41 of Caldwells book:

    By 1997 just 12 percent of immigrants arriving in Britain from what used to be called the new commonwealth were coming for work.

    Other reasons were family life, asylum etc…. remember idiot/troll we are discussing ‘immigrant’ not other EU citizens LOL

    You have provided no evidence,

    On the contrary, I’ve backed up all I said referenced from Christopher Caldwell’s book, it is you who has provided nothing, nothing to either substantiate what you spew forth, or to negate anything I’ve presented.

    You are talking out of yer arsehole, with a capital A on your forehead. Do some reading, catch up, and don’t put your ignorance on display for all to see….

  • willis

    Can we cap this ad hominum stuff now?

  • borderline

    They should be driven out before they establish themselves.

    Before you know it they’ll be seizing land, oppressing our religion, changing the language and swearing allegiance to the foreign country they came from.

    And marching down the street rubbing our noses in it.

  • LongDanSweeney

    Borderline

    priceless! You’ve put a smile on my face

  • Concerned Resident

    I know many people in West Belfast who would love to be gutting chickens in Portadown and would be if it wasn’t for them Portuguese coming all the way from Portugal and living in Portadown and gutting the chickens. Don’t they have chickens in Portugal? Outrageous.

  • Dec

    Perhaps if the 10% of the population that receive DLA and spend their days watching Sky Sports inbetween picking up fares at Tescos in their mobility car, stopped complaining about foreign workers whose taxes fund their cushy lifestyle and got off their big fat arses and actually tried seeking gainful employment then these migrant workers might then face a bit of competition in the ‘taking all the jobs stakes’.

  • Neil

    The quote you provided may mention the year 2000, but the only stats provided regarding the employment of immigrants in Germany are from 1973 – 1983, i.e. 20 years old and in Germany:

    In 1973 65% of German immigrants were in the work force, in 1983 a decade later only 38% were.

    How about going beyond the basic dictionary to find out what citizenship is?

    How about just speaking English. Here is a link to the definition of immigrant: http://tiny.cc/7ZMZ6. An immigrant is defined as someone who comes to country where they weren’t born to settle. We were discussing immigrants. Definition provided.

    You stated: They aren’t immigrants

    They are immigrants. The dictionary backs up that fact. Please provide a link, if you can find one that tells me how someone from Czech. Poland etc. living in NI is not an immigrant. You cannot because you are wrong, it’s that simple. You could do the decent thing, admit that you are technically and really incorrect, but it’s easier for the mentally challenegd to sling insults. Go for it, you accuse me of a display of ingnorance while trying to argue that your definition of a word is correct and the dictionary’s is not. ROFL.

    Do not immigrants have the right to family life

    Yes.

    can bring with them in to a country their spouse and children

    Again from a linguistic point of view, this means nothing. You’ve gotten a little mixed up with your words, but it’s ok. Care to have another go? Are people entitled to bring their kids etc. yes, if they have visas or are from the EU.

    My query regarding both statements above is this: if they are entitled to come here, they are still not entitled to claim benefits. So ‘family reasons’ means nothing.

    Other reasons were family life, asylum etc…. remember idiot/troll we are discussing ‘immigrant’ not other EU citizens LOL

    Look, for the final time you thick twat, a immigrant is someone who settles in a country not of their birth. You may want to start redefining words to suit your argument, but we are talking about other EU citizens, by definition and in the context of this discussion. Are you contending (and it wouldn’t surprise me from someone so stupid) that when people here refer to immigrants taking our jobs, that they are reffering only to those from outside Europe? As the vast, vast majority of our immigrants (again, check your dictiopnary if you’re still having problems understanding what an immigrant is) are Eastern European, they are more than relevant, and they are exactly what we are discussing. The clue being in the use of the word immigrant which no matter how hard you wish will not change it’s meaning for the purposes of your misinformation.

    You are talking out of yer arsehole, with a capital A on your forehead. Do some reading, catch up, and don’t put your ignorance on display for all to see….

    Go for it, get it out of ye. You must be coming across as a genius with your repeated assertions that eastern europeans are not immigrants, and irrelevant to the discussion, even after having been provided with a dictionary definition to read. When you are reading do you arbitrarily apply your own meanings to words you don’t understand? It would explain plenty. You are the arsehole, and your ignorance is very, very obvious. At least to those of us who can speak and articulate ourselves in English, who don’t think we can bypass the dictionary and tweak English to make ourselves look less retarded. Only saying: FAIL.

  • only asking

    Look, for the final time you thick twat, a immigrant is someone who settles in a country not of their birth.

    Listen fuckwit, you obviously need to read up on the EU and how it works. Your fucking shitty minimum wage job was given to another European citizen, a member of another European state, under EU rules he is not an immigrant. The EU has borders, anyone coming into the EU from outside its borders is an immigrant, movement around inside it is like moving around inside the United States, you know the states that make up the union fuckwit? so moving from poland to work in your shitty fucking job is like moving from California to New York – geddit.

    Here is a copy

    http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/jl0001_en.htm

    of the European common immigration for Europe, given to member states. You, fuckwit, are entitled to go live in Poland if they’d be stupid enough to have someone as thick and retarded as you, as he is entitled to work in your shitty fucking job.

    If you are too stupid, dumb, backward to geddit thats your problem forest gump.

    Now go play with yourself.

  • only asking

    Are you contending (and it wouldn’t surprise me from someone so stupid) that when people here refer to immigrants taking our jobs, that they are reffering only to those from outside Europe

    No fuckwit, the loyalist is a dumb as you, how does it feel to be of his intellectual level?