Then some idiot goes and spoils all the fun…

Before anyone gets up in arms about the Obama swastika theme got up by Rush Limbuagh, they should remember the pillorying many on the left gave President Bush. From the Swift Boat Vets’ shredding of the US military honors system US political debate seems always to find a way p*** all over its honourable institutions… But the Mobfather may have pause for thought for his ‘public vision’ of the American eagle resolving itself into the Nazi’s chief political symbol… Underneath it all there are important decisions to made about the future of healthcare in the US… Dick Morris (now a portly 61) points out that American pensioners may be the ones who pay for the extension of what is effectively to be a new public health franchise… Whilst Carol Gould in the Telegraph notes that the pejorative referencing of the NHS (and the Canadian Health Service) misses the point that at least in cases of emergency, NHS consistently outboxes the private sector dominated US system…

Update: Check out Political Scrapbook who’s got the fuller version… It’s not just the right that’s disgracing itself over all of this either

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  • OC

    Is the topic re the current row over USA health insurance reform?

    Part of the brouhaha is that it has morphed into a health care reform debate.

    IMO it’s all a straw man to divert our attention from the jobs crisis.

    Here in the USA, most health insurance comes through business sponsored health insurance offered by employers.

    No job = no health insurance.
    Crappy job = no health insurance.

    If all American citisens had jobs that offered health insurance, there would be little to no debate on this issue.

    Why don’t we have decent jobs?

    Illegal immigrants.
    Predatory work visas.
    Jobs sent overseas.
    Recession.

    If these aren’t reversed, soon there won’t be anybody left with health insurance, or a decent job for that matter.

  • RepublicanStones

    What an idiot the woman is, she looks a bit like a rabbit in the headlights once he starts to berate her.

    Interesting points, OC regarding the majority of healthcare coming through employment. But illegal immigrants are a reason there are no decent jobs?

    If they’re illegal surely they wouldn’t qualify for jobs that offer such insurance. Don’t the illegals scrape round the bottom of the employment ladder in precisely those kinds of menial jobs which don’t have attractive packages?

  • kensei

    OC

    If all American citisens had jobs that offered health insurance, there would be little to no debate on this issue.

    Complete ignorance. US Health care costs are through the roof. It’s not simply the uninsured but the declining state of coverage in various other jobs, the cost of drugs, the efficiency of treatment and a lot else besides. If you don’t do something the problem is going to be a hell of a lot worse ten years from now. It remains to be seen whether the republicans can again effectively kill the debate.

    Any Democrat deliberated sabotaging this is dumb though, because if it doesn’t pass in some form they are all vulnerable.

  • OC

    RS:

    For example, look at coal mining. A dangerous, dirty job, lowing paying. Just the kind of job that the left says that illegal aliens fill because citisens won’t do it.

    But wait a sec… The coal miner’s have a strong union, and it’s not open to illegal aliens.

    The still-union job is still dirty, and dangerous, but at least it pays well enough, and has decent health insurance, so there is little problem finding US citisens to do the work.

    Take away the coal miners’ union, and yes, the job would be abandoned to illegal aliens, because it will have become a low-paying job, that is also dirty and/or dangerous. That is how many jobs became “menial”, ie “low paying”, and no longer attractive to US citisens.

    There are many more examples.

  • OC

    kensai:

    “Complete ignorance.”

    Kinda harsh.

    I’m not arguing that some reform isn’t needed.

    But if all US citisens had decent jobs that had decent health insurance, the reforms needed wouldn’t take up four stones worth of paper stock.

  • RepublicanStones

    Forgive me OC, but i fail to see how the lack of decent jobs is down to illegals. Whether or not a particular employment sector is unionised has nothing to do with those crossing the border.

    Unless of course you think as a cost-cutting measure, the big business would attempt to put the unions to bed a la Thatcher, allowing them to drift-net hoards of illegals in to replace the local boys. But I doubt such an industry would base most of its workforce on those without papers !

    (Tbh, im just interested as I have little knowledge of the US system, bar a while spent in Philly gettin paid under the table myself 😉

  • IRIA

    Here’s a great response to “Obama’s plan is Nazi like”, from Rep. Barney Frank:

    Please, no more links from DICK Morris. That guy is consistently wrong.

  • OC

    “Unless of course you think as a cost-cutting measure, the big business would attempt to put the unions to bed a la Thatcher, allowing them to drift-net hoards of illegals in to replace the local boys. But I doubt such an industry would base most of its workforce on those without papers !”

    That is exactly what has happened in the construction industry, especially in non-unionised areas.

    Another example:

    Last year, a major meat-cutting operation in west Texas was raided by immigration authorities.

    So many illegal aliens were rounded up that the plant had to close until legitimate workers were found. And that didn’t take very long at all.

    Most of the illegals were from Mexico. They knew a good thing when they found it. So when illegal aliens from Guatamala tried to get in on it, the illegal Mexicans attacked them and drove them from the area.

    In high tech industries, many highly trained and experienced workers were laid off, and replaced by H1B visa workers from Asia. Why? Because they were paid less, in violation of the law I might add.

    In both cases, it led to less workforce diversity, too.

  • RepublicanStones

    Isn’t the construction industry large companies and loads of little independent contractors as well. I would have thought that the coal industry was a sort of oligopoly by contrast.

    But surely if such a thing happened, all it would take is an affected local boy to pick up the phone and get in the G men?

  • Mick Fealty

    IRIA,

    I’m not allowed one link in 6 months? Good lord man, what next? His point goes to the heart of a lot of anxiety about these reforms. The easing off resources away from chronic (deserving) towards funding universal acute medicine (undeserving).

  • RepublicanStones

    Barney Frank looks a little like Al Franken from a diistance. (or is it just me?)

  • Sean

    OC

    A lot of american industries would benefit from universal health care as they wouldn’t be forced to try and fund legacy costs of retired employees and the chronically sick

    Suddenly more manufacturing would be cost effective and you might have an economy again

  • OC

    Rep. Barney Frank?!?!?

    The man who allowed a homosexual prostitution ring to be run from his house?

    And who had Congressional over-site over the regulations that led to the current world-wide recession?

    At the risk of violating Godwin’s Law, that’s like letting Adolf Hitler run the Kosher Food Laws.

  • OC

    Sean:

    “A lot of american industries would benefit from universal health care as they wouldn’t be forced to try and fund legacy costs of retired employees and the chronically sick”

    Most companies don’t fund retirees health insurance. They use Medicare, a form of socialised medicine.

    The poor have access to Medicaid, another form of socialised medicine.

    As part of the GM shakeup, retirees medical bennies are now picked up by their union.

    There is an arguement to be made that if the USA had some form of a NHS, then companies would have lower unit costs, making them more competitive.

  • IRIA

    Re:Morris.

    The problem is the link provided is an effort to hawk his book which is simply a conspiracy theory about healthcare, trying to frighten the elderly. The same people who say “I don’t want Government run health care. Keep out of Medicare!” LOL. Morris would be happy to pimp the much discredited “Obama wants to Euthanize granny”, but since he’s still judged as “credible”, he has to find other conspiracies, such as what he proposes AARP is up to.

    And yes, Morris is the same guy who got caught with a prostitute sucking his toe.

  • Sean

    You tell me I am wrong then cite the perfect example of why I am right! Make up your mind

    Legacy costs are what killed GM and is hurting a lot of traditional heavy industries

  • 6countyprod

    As I recall the Swift Boat vets turned out to be the honourable ones in their quarrel with Kerry. The vast majority of their accusations against Kerry still stand. As far as I am aware, the $1m reward for proving the claims wrong remains uncollected.

  • Sean

    6

    If you set the terms then you control the result

    For instance my brother challenged me to a race because he believe his truck is much faster than mine, I accepted and set the terms. 1 tank of gas whoever gets the farthest wins! He never took up the challenge because I know my truck has a bigger fuel tank and gets better mielage. It was a race but one he never had a chance of winning

    Now lets take it a different way

    I offer 1 million dollars to any one who can prove to my satisfaction that little green men do not exist?

    I set the terms and you will never satisfy me so its an ampty offer

    Sort of well.. exactly like the swift boaters

  • Mick Fealty

    6cp,

    My point was not the targeting of Kerry (totally legit), but the de-legitimising of the military honours system in the process.

  • 6countyprod

    As for Limbaugh, he was responding to Pelosi who was the first to introduce the swastika theme to a national audience. What prompted her to say it, you may wonder. Daily Kos, of course!

    Typical liberal MO: liberals introduce the ludicrous, and then conservatives are blamed for the controversy when they reply.

  • 6countyprod

    The Vets did the honourable thing when they left Kerry alone when he was a mere senator, but they couldn’t stomach the idea that such a man could be CiC of the US military. That’s why they exposed him. Apart from his fanciful imbellishments like ‘Christmas in Cambodia’, the dishonourable and despicable element of Kerry’s action was the litany of false accusations he made against those who served with him in Vietnam.

    I have worked with Americans who served in Vietnam, and they absolutely loathe Kerry for the way he slandered them when he returned to the US after his 4 month stint in Vietnam.

  • Sean

    6

    If IIRC correctly the swift boaters never ever produced any one who served directly with Kerry to refute his version of events

    Instead they had men who suposedly served “near” or in the “same theatre of operation”

    They have been shown to be nothing but a sham PAG invented by rich republicans

  • OC

    Sean:

    I merely wrote that most retirees are NOT covered by their former employers. And companies that still do are changing their polcies.

    And the union health care for retirees is NOT run by by the gov’t – it is still private sector.

    My comments about using the lower unit cost factor as a reason for a NHS has not, to my knowledge, been made by anyone but me.

    I also have suggested an Insured Patient’s Bill Of Rights to assuage the fears of many opposed to the Obama/Dem reforms.

    We are still a democracy in the USA, so if the majority of folks don’t want the Obama/Dem reforms, why should it be crammed down their throats?

    The reported “mob” actions at so-called Congressmen’s Town Hall Meetings are actually tame compared to what I’ve seen at UK Parliament meetings.

    But I’m glad for them, because now the electorate is revved up for the next stage – Obama’s Illegal Alien Amnesty Program.

  • michael

    “The Vets did the honourable thing when they left Kerry alone when he was a mere senator, but they couldn’t stomach the idea that such a man could be CiC of the US military. ”

    So they plumped for the guy that was almost good enough to defend Texas airspace against UFOs and other assorted imaginary shit when he could be arsed turning up?

    I think you’re confusing the word honourable with the phrase ‘partisan whores who got recieved 18million dollars from a small number of prominent republicans’.

    Easy mistake to make if you like your politics like you like your chariot races.

  • 6countyprod

    IRIA, like CNN you forgot to mention one little detail about the Barney Frank video. The lady(?) in question is not a Republican, she is actually a fringe Democrat.

  • 6countyprod

    Michael, what are you rambling on about?

  • michael

    Bit cryptic? i’ll break it down for you 6cp.

    I’m wondering how dumb someone would have to be to believe that men who previously praised Kerry, would as a point of ‘honour’ suddenly publicly berate him in a presidential election.

    Additionally ignore that the same men recieved over 18million in donations from a small number of prominent republicans, and not gag on their own disbelief that as ‘a point of honour’ they were backing a man who spent the vietnam war in a rich mans draft dodge outfit.

    I’m wondering if that sort of person would be better off not thinking about politics, and instead stick to something similar to early imperial roman chariot racing. Two sides, easily distinguished by their racing colours and all the fun of screaming at the other guys for no real reason other than they are the ‘other guys’.

    Kinda like NI politics, only with naufragia.

    Less cryptic?
    Too blunt?

  • kensei

    Interesting take on the debate in 538. Essentially this is turning campaign like tactics on policy debate.

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/asymmetrical-policy-warfare-and.html

    That’s a complete disaster if it gets widespread. One can only hope that scorched earth politics eventually backfire. I suspect that some form of health care will get through, as even conservative dems will take a hit if they don’t.

    OC

    You are still wrong. Scary graph time:

    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/us-population-distribution-by-age-1950.html

    That’s what is happening to the US population, which will affect Social Security but will probably affect health care costs much more.

    Many scary stats here:

    http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2009/tc20090223_440746.htm

    Key takeaway:

    The U.S. already spends more than twice the share of its GDP on health care than any other industrialized country, with no better outcomes, a state of affairs that most economists and company officials complain weighs mightily on the nation’s global competitiveness. Consequently, there is a growing consensus among politicians and the health-care industry that some level of health-care reform is a must. Obama said during his campaign that he wants to decrease the number of uninsured, both by penalizing large employers who do not offer insurance and by setting up a new public insurer, a plan the Congressional Budget Office estimated could cost up to $65 billion to implement. Economists agree, however, that ultimately efforts to cover the uninsured and lower costs, though expensive in the short term, are critical to bringing long-term health-care inflation under control.

    Everyone having a job will not solve the problem. Rising health care costs will cannibalise your wages.

  • David

    The current US system benefits the rest of the world more than the US. The big drug companies develop lots of new drugs for the lucrative US market, not for the NHS.

  • Sean

    David

    You sound like you think the us is the only place drug research takes place give your head a shake

  • 6countyprod

    Naufragia, Michael?

    You crack me up, you really do. Are you trying to take Turgon’s place with your historical analogies?

    Thanks for the new word, btw.

  • I say tell him straight up that if he’s going to be a jerk and act all crazy you don’t want to be around him much anymore. But also explain to him that he’s a good friend to you and you guys have fun together, and that sometimes you’re not able to be all vocal about things but that if he needs to talk, you’re there to listen. Maybe that’s all he needs. And maybe you do need to start being more vocal. But definitely put your foot down about him being a jerk and messing with you, if he continues, cut him off. Give him another chance though.
    Work at home Jobs

  • Quagmire

    Why are my contributions repeatedly deleted? Do they not fit in with the pro-Israeli narrative? For the third time, Israel is a fascist, right wing, reactionary, Nazi state!!