“We expect the police to take responsibility for parades”

With the Strategic Review of Parading Report stranded in the limbo of a dysfunctional semi-detached polit-bureau, on yesterday’s Politics Show Yvette Shapiro sketched out the state of play on parades in the current political environment. Of particular interest, in light of Sinn Féin’s warning of their withdrawal from stewarding protests, may be the role of former Sinn Féin adviser Breandan MacCionnaith of the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition – now spokesman for and, according to the report, general secretary of dissenting republican group éirígí. Below the fold, a less than illuminating studio discussion with SF’s Martin McGuinness and the DUP’s Simon Hamilton. Adds A previous post on identity.

A less than illuminating studio discussion with SF’s Martin McGuinness and the DUP’s Simon Hamilton.

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  • slug

    It was interesting and significant I think to see the OO leader stating to Martin McGuinness “I’m as Irish as you are, just I am British too”.

    This reclaiming of Irishness seems to be spreading from the 3000 Versts types – not to the OO types. So one can say it is catching on. It was in the troubles that Irishness was not so much used among unionists, now the troubles are over, it seems to be being reclaimed.

  • slug

    Read this one, with typo corrected:

    It was interesting and significant I think to see the OO leader stating to Martin McGuinness “I’m as Irish as you are, just I am British too”.

    This reclaiming of Irishness seems to be spreading from the 3000 Versts type civic unioists such as Checkov, now to the OO types. So one can say it is catching on. It was in the troubles that Irishness was not so much used among unionists, now the troubles are over, it seems to be being reclaimed.

  • Glencoppagagh

    Perhaps one of the daftest statements he will ever utter.
    As Irish as McGuinness? I doubt it. I fancy Nelson’s roots leave Ireland a lot sooner than McGuinness’s.

  • slug

    I would not judge a person’s Irishness by number of generations lived in Ireland. One generation is more than enough.

  • dub

    Here here slug. Amother asinine comment from Glen…

  • Yokel

    Your length of heritage does not decide your choice of nationality or association.

    It isnt a pissing up the wall contest, its a choice of what people define themselves as.

  • Pól

    [i]As Irish as McGuinness? I doubt it. I fancy Nelson’s roots leave Ireland a lot sooner than McGuinness’s.[/i]

    That’s pathetic. You can’t go about dictating to people how Irish they are.

  • IMO It’s not so much the reclaiming of Irishness that is significant (although it was a shock tp hear it expressed so clearly), but rather the recognition of a dual Irish and British identity, which reflects the reality of the more complex heritage of many of us living in these islands. If this complexity can be acknowledged more readily, then perhaps NI society will be able to move on to treating other minority ethnic groups as fully human in, oh, about another 200 years…

  • fin

    This state of been Irish and British is confusing the hell out of me, some years ago ‘unionist’ argued like mad to be British and not Irish nor Northern Irish, hence the GFA recognised the right to be British or Irish.

    Its defo not the same as been Scottish and British or Welsh and British as both those regions are in GB, the term for the state been the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the GFA removed the entity of been Northern Irish leaving the choice of been Irish or British.

    I can understand dual nationality, or holding 2 passports, but surely this is about holding 2 political viewpoints.

  • slug

    Fin, in fact the GFA explicitly recognised that people could be British, Irish, or BOTH.

  • GavBelfast

    Fin, drivel from start to finish from you there. Well done.

    Great to see a senior Orangeman reclaiming Irishness.

  • Glencoppagagh

    Slug
    “I would not judge a person’s Irishness by number of generations lived in Ireland. One generation is more than enough.”
    That required careful reading. For a moment I thought you were suggesting that one generation of being Irish is more than enough.
    Well, if you think anyone who turns up to live in a country automatically assumes the identity of that country, there’s no arguing with you.
    How long does a Polish migrant worker have to stay in Ireland before he becomes Irish and does he stop being Irish if and when he decides to return to Poland. And all those Irish emigrants of yesteryear who pitched up in Birmingham and London became English after year or so, I suppose.

  • Dave

    It’s more a case of ‘reclaiming’ Irishness for Her Majesty’s United Kingdom rather than recognising the right of the Irish nation to unfettered national self-determination and a sovereign, independent nation-state. By ‘Irish’ he means support for British constitutional structures.

  • The Truth

    Let me clear it all up for you.
    If you are born on the island of Britain then you are British.
    If you are born on the island of Ireland then you are Irish.

  • Drumlins Rock

    there is no island called Britain, it is a group of island, the largest of which is called Great Britain (the great just refers to its size compared to the rest) the rest, including Ireland, isle of man, jersey etc. are also British,

    so Being Irish and British is no problem

  • McKelvey

    “Let me clear it all up for you.
    If you are born on the island of Britain then you are British.
    If you are born on the island of Ireland then you are Irish. ”

    Does this then mean that if you’re born on the island of Tory then you are Toryish?

  • The Truth

    The island to the east of Ireland is the island of Britain. The British isles are the islands surrounding the island of Britain. The Irish isles are the islands surrounding the island of Ireland.

    And denial is more than a river in Africa.

  • John

    Great Britain is an island. It is called Great Britain to distinguish it from Lesser Britain (or, Brittany) in France.

    Stop talking shite Drumlin.

  • Thick Paddy

    Glencoppagagh what a numpty you are. Either that or you are in the Sean Russell tradition of republicanism.

    I’ll bet you that on both sides of your family you have planter – of either Norman or Tudor or Stuart times – stock. I know I do, and I am from Andersonstown via Co. Donegal.

    On the Belfast side my granny saw Big Mick take the salute from the Army in which her father – with a planter surname served.

    On the Donegal side the planters married a Catholic and fled from their plantation town to the wilds of the *really* far North (if Rome is the traditional capital of Europe then there cannot be many places in the continent further away).

    Yes, there were Gaels in the family too. But I make no claim for genetic purity and regard anyone who does as a fool at best.

    But I am as Irish as you, and even as that Orangeman.

  • Paul

    Everyone in the British Isles are British. Irish Nationalists are simply in denial.

  • Dave

    “Let me clear it all up for you.
    If you are born on the island of Britain then you are British.
    If you are born on the island of Ireland then you are Irish.” – The Truth

    Not true. If you’re born in Northern Ireland, your default nationality is British; and if you’re born in Ireland, your default nationality is Irish. However, if you were born in Northern Ireland, you have an automatic entitlement under the amended Article 2 of the Irish constitution and under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 to seek Irish nationality if you want it. Under Section 6 of that Act, “…every person born in the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen… if… he or she does any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do…” Such an act would be producing your birth certificate at the passport office. Irish nationality only applies from the time of the approval of the declaration, so it doesn’t imply that you were born Irish.

    The fact that someone born in Ireland has not done “any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do” does not give rise, however, to a presumption that he or she is born as a stateless person or is not entitled to enjoy the privileges of Irish citizenship. Article 1(1) of the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, it is declared that “Contracting States shall grant their nationality to persons, otherwise stateless, born in their territory.” Someone born in Northern Ireland is covered by lex soli under British nationality law.

    In common with other nation-states, Ireland’s un-amended Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act granted citizenship on the basis of jus soli, declaring that “Every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth.” As a result of pandering this “island of Ireland” agenda, it was deemed politically expedient to declare that no one born on “the island of Ireland” should be deemed to be born as an Irish citizen.

    Under international law, one state cannot make an extraterritorial claim to the citizens of another state. As the Irish State no longer makes a sovereign claim to Her Majesty’s dominion of Northern Ireland, it could no longer justify the old Article 2 which declared it to be its “national territory” and its citizens, thereby, to be born as Irish nationals. Subsequently, it amended nationality law so that it could avoid claiming that British citizens of Northern Ireland were born as Irish citizens.

    The use of “birthright” in the amended Article 2 makes it sounds like the Irish state is declaring that a citizen of Northern Ireland is born Irish when it is actually doing no such thing. The actual “birthright” is the entitlement that is conferred by birth to apply for Irish nationality, not to be born with it.

    It’s just another appeasement fudge that needs to be cleaned up.

  • Pedantic Gaeilgeoir

    Pete misspelled éirígí.

  • Pete Baker

    Thanks Pedantic Gaeilgeoir.

    Should be fixed now.

  • fionn

    “Everyone in the British Isles are British.”

    The term ‘British Isles’ has no legal standing anywhere.

    “Not true. If you’re born in Northern Ireland, your default nationality is British”

    There is no adjective for the UK. While the term ‘British’ tends to be used, it is not strictly correct.

    http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/britain.html

  • Mayoman

    At least he is not “ere on ‘oliday” 😉

  • Reader

    fionn: There is no adjective for the UK. While the term ‘British’ tends to be used, it is not strictly correct.
    My passport says “Nationality : British Citizen”. That seems to be reasonably official – for both Nationality and Citizenship. I think both Paul and ‘The Truth’ above are talking bollocks, since the Good Friday Agreement actually gave us the choice. This is all about politics and identity, not geography.