Questions remain over PSNI handling of Coleraine murder

The fact that disquiet regarding the PSNI’s handling of events in Coleraine culminating in the murder of Kevin McDaid is growing is evident in the swift appearance of an Assistant Chief Constable on the television today and by the actions of the Chief Constable in calling in the Police Ombudsman to investigate the incident. The most serious allegation– directly refuted by Assistant Chief Constable, Alistair Finlay- is that PSNI officers watched on as the 49 year old catholic was beaten to death, an allegation attributed to Mr. McDaid’s family. But there are other, significant and serious questions which must be asked of and answered by the PSNI in the coming days.
The speed and seeming certainty with which ACC Finlay dismissed allegations of loyalist paramilitary involvement is noteworthy, but upon closer examination it is easy to see why he should be so concerned to divert attention from this line of thought.

We are led to believe that the PSNI were liaising between community representatives throughout the day due to growing tensions of a loyalist ‘invasion’ of the area, yet ACC Finlay brushed aside queries regarding why the police failed to maintain a presence in the area. Could it perhaps be the case that, once the local police had ‘assurances’ from certain loyalist leaders that there would not be an attack they simply took them at their word and left the scene? That would certainly explain why he was so keen to divert attention away from organised loyalist involvement, and his depiction of those responsible as a “maverick” group.
Which raises another question. The local PSNI would have been fully aware that a similar, vicious sectarian mob attack on this small largely catholic community occurred less than a year ago, when loyalists objected to the gathering of items for an internment bonfire in ‘their’ town. That incident led to considerable criticisms from local nationalist and republican representatives, and to my knowledge no prosecutions. Given the precedent, why would the local PSNI not have taken steps to ensure that an effective police presence was maintained in the very real event of a sectarian attack on this occasion?

And then there’s this.

The Irish News report today carries this from an unnamed ‘witness’:
….a mediation police officer had told nationalists that an agreement had been reached with loyalists in the town that they would tolerate the flying of tricolours in the Pates Lane/ Somerset Drive area on Sunday as long as they were taken down the following morning.”

The actions of the PSNI officers during the day in ‘liaising’ with community representatives to reach an understanding to defuse tensions must also be looked at. As you can see above, it was reported in the print media today that a ‘deal’ had been struck to remove the Irish National flag and bunting from the district within a 24 hour period, presumably in return for something from loyalists- should we assume that that something was an assurance from a loyalist paramilitary source to the PSNI that there would be no ‘action’ taken against the local catholic populace?
All of which is revealing of a PSNI mentality towards the flying of flags which runs completely contrary to the PSNI response to the erection of loyalist flags in many mixed residential areas across the north- not to mention areas which are predominantly protestant. The thought will no doubt occur to many that, if republicans were of a mind (and thankfully they are not) to demand the removal of loyalist bunting and flags from a largely protestant district in a majority catholic town in return for not ‘invading’ the area, would the PSNI response have been different?

  • Driftwood

    barnshee
    I found it hard to disagree with any of your post. There is a dedicated ‘riot squad’ that is only deployed for ‘big media events’ and then, knowing the tv cameras are there, cannot be seen to be ‘heavy handed’. The furore over the Mets handling of the G20 protests will only exacerbate this. Any long term cop will tell you of the cultural change to being risk averse, and now they can’t bring in the squaddies to do the hard work, Trevor and Mandy simply stand back and rely on video evidence. 95% of the time this is enough.
    Your conclusions on the inquiry and trial also seem hard to argue with.

  • Trensen D’or

    Don’t kid yourself that it’s only ‘unionists’ who are wallowing in the shit of this thread.

  • Paul

    Dr. Who

    They arent stories they are the eye witness accounts of the victims

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “Keep taking the Prozac.”

    You think I’m on Prozac? How very 20th century.

    “If your “mate”

    “Did I call him my “mate”? I don’t recall. But you seem to know about me and my life than I do.”

    “… is unionist and a republican, it kind of excludes her from being a loyalist. Two different things.”

    “Her”? Who are you talking about? And more to the point, what are you talking about? Riddles, riddles…. But I’m sure it all makes sense … to somebody, somewhere.

    “Now if you remember that tomorrow buy yourself a few pastie suppers.”

    Why? Why are you concerned about my life? I thought this thread concerned the PSNI and Kevin McDaid.

    But that’s me.

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “Sure what´s the point explaining that to the likes of Big Maggie and Paul who have closed sectarian minds.”

    Almost forgot this one. You seem to know my mind as well as my daily life. Extraordinary!

  • Reader

    Big Maggie: I have a Unionist friend in Belfast who dislikes the royal family and wishes to see it abolished.
    Was your unionist friend in Coleraine recently? Are they to be tarred with the same brush as you use on the rest of us?

  • Paul

    Since I am an avowed atheist I don’t know how I could be sectarian

    Though you are right about the republican thing, I think the queen and her crotch fruit should be shown the door

    However as I am a Canadian Republican you are so wrong you don’t even know it

  • fin

    DrWho, still don’t understand the unionist/loyalist thing, however you’ve confused me more by mentioning the different unionist parties standing for election, are they really that different? the leader of the TUV was in the DUP when he won the last election, and several people have walked from the UUP to the DUP. unionists seem to more between political parties much the same as loyalists move between terror organisations.

    Wikipedia describes a ‘loyalist’ as a hardline unionist, do you agree or is there a more clear difference?

  • Big Maggie

    Paul,

    I too am an atheist. Obviously Doctor Who is unclear on a great many issues.

    Fin,

    Yes, a Loyalist is a Unionist. End of story. I can understand the irritation of some Unionists here when I refer to Loyalists as their “fellow Unionists”.

  • Doctor Who

    Big maggie + paul

    Being an athiest does not stop you from being sectarian. I also remember from a previous thread that Big Maggie knows very little concerning that subject as well, preferring cheap jibes at a Christian poster instead of trying to argue her point rationally. At least she´s consistant.

    paul

    “They arent stories they are the eye witness accounts of the victims”

    There seems to be many varying eye witness accounts, the truth can only be established through the PSNI ivestigation. The fact you have no faith in them means very little to be quite frank about it.

    As far as the Queen goes if the Canadian people no longer want her as head of state they will vote in a referendum to remove her. Ain´t democracy wonderful.

  • Paul

    Ah Yes Doctor who it has always served the nationalist citizens of Ireland to have the police and army investigate themselves. Obviously Bloody Sunday wasn’t the armies fault and Berntolet was the poster child for proper policing

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “Being an athiest does not stop you from being sectarian.”

    No, but it helps one to spell.

    I’m being mean and nasty. I must be unconsciously picking up your bad habits :^)

    I expect you have your reasons for considering me a sectarian. Would one of those be because I don’t agree with your point of view?

    “I also remember from a previous thread that Big Maggie knows very little concerning that subject as well, preferring cheap jibes at a Christian poster* instead of trying to argue her point rationally.”

    Cheap jibes in lieu of rational argument? Isn’t that YOUR department? You stopped debating a while back and resorted to personal insults.

    I resent your calling my jibes cheap! You have of course examples to back up that assertion.
    .
    .

    * Might this be the Christian poster you’re alluding to?

  • Paul

    Ah Yes Doctor who it has always served the nationalist citizens of Ireland to have the police and army investigate themselves. Obviously Bloody Sunday wasn’t the armies fault and Berntolet was the poster child for proper policing

  • Paul

    Maggie I beleive he was refering to the mentally unbalanced God botherer who flits through the coms calling people the antichrist and labeling himself the second coming of christ

  • Big Maggie

    Paul,

    Uh oh, I believe I know who you mean!

    Is he the one whose name can’t be invoked? Otherwise, like the Candyman, he’ll appear amongst us? :^)

  • Clady cowboy

    To evoke the language of the oppressor…

    Not all Unionists are Loyalists but all Loyalists are Unionists.

    That oughta settle it…(ahem)

  • Doctor Who

    Big Maggie

    You should be the last one pointing out grammatical errors.

    Paul, someone had better tell you that Bloody Sunday was 36 years ago, some of us have moved on since then.

    Maggie basis her atheism on the film “Religulous”, an apalling example of heavy editing because the protaganist was so weak. Many Christian´s and spiritualists of other belief systems base their beliefs on varying texts, spiritual movement, inherited belief, personal choice etc. etc. I as a Jew, then a lapsed Jew and then an Atheist journey´d to that decision in a similar way a Christian finds god. I still find people with spiritual belief very interesting people. Some of the greatest scholars alive are also people who beleive in an after life. I would rather converse and debate that subject with those people as opposed to psuedo secular twits like you both are.

  • Big Maggie

    Clady cowboy,

    “Not all Unionists are Loyalists but all Loyalists are Unionists.

    That oughta settle it…(ahem)”

    You wish! See the post below yours. I genuinely thought he’d given up. Oh well, he’s good value for money I suppose :^)

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Clady Cowboy: “Not all Unionists are Loyalists but all Loyalists are Unionists.”

    The longer form is that Loyalists are less affluent, less educated and a wee bit more violent from time to time.

    Loyalist paramilitaries are to Unionists what mopeds and lasses of easy virtue are to young men — Sure, Unionism made use of them, but wouldn’t want to be seen in polite society with them. In this one matter, I think SF and, to a lesser degree, PUP took the smarter road — sufficient overlap / contact that the hard men don’t find themselves out in the cold, at least in the main.

    Of course, Republicans leave prison with a degree, Loyalists leave prison with new jailhouse tatoos.

  • latcheeco

    Driftwood,
    “Trevor and Mandy simply stand back.” Protestant police for protestant people?

  • 2050

    To right questions remain! It was well known the mob were heading over the bann for some blood & the heights was the obvious target. The PSNI had enough time & information to take preventative steps and didnt.

    Needs full impartial investigation but will it happen??

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Sure, 2050… it will be performed by gnomes arriving on flying unicorns — couldn’t have leprechauns — far too Irish for some folks nerves.

  • Paul

    Doc why

    It seems only fair that if 30 year old unsubstantiated rumours of Adams can be used to justify the Murder of Mr. McDaid then 36 year old FACTS about the muderous unionist government of nIreland can be used to justify not trusting the state police.

    Big Maggie

    Even though I am an atheist I wouldn’t want to invoke his name lest I invoke the rath of his father

  • latcheeco

    Jesus Dread,
    You’re showing unforeseen depths.

  • Doctor Who

    paul

    “It seems only fair that if 30 year old unsubstantiated rumours of Adams can be used to justify the Murder of Mr. McDaid”

    A barking comparison, but I would expect nothing better from a Jack Russell. You and Big Maggie should link up. A Jack Russell and a salivating Rotweiller, you could sit and repeatedly watch “Religulous” together, and giggle endlessly because laughing at your own ignorance makes you feel better.

  • 2050

    Who are the Police accountable to ?

    In recent memory (Portadown) they watched across the road in a jeep while a catholic was murdered. They weren’t there to help the we fella in Ballymena last year but in fairness secured convictions! There are many other cases .

    Is history just going to keep repeating itself every year & what are the police afraid off when it comes to mobs of mindless catholic hating thugs? Are we going to see this next year like all the previous years?

    One wonders when the last time a mob of mindless protestant haters beat a protestant to death in N.Ireland and what the reaction would have been ? That would make interesting stats!

  • Paul

    Doc you don’t like getting bested very well do you, go have a lay down and pretend that unionism isn’t loalism and if you dont come back you can even dream this all didn’t happen

  • Doctor Who

    Paul

    HAAAAAA!! yes Paul ok you did “bested” me, but don´t tell fat maggie as she might get jealous.

  • Big Maggie

    2050,

    “One wonders when the last time a mob of mindless protestant haters beat a protestant to death in N.Ireland”

    I’ve been asking that question for the last day or so. Oddly enough no one’s been able to provide an answer.

    Except perhaps our friend Adrian McQuillan who opined: “Tit-for-tat all the time.”

    All the time? Clearly we have more than one Time Lord in our midst.

  • Frank

    ‘Except perhaps our friend Adrian McQuillan who opined: “Tit-for-tat all the time.”’

    Adrian McQuillan ??

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/apr27_UVF_name_band_defended.php

  • Big Maggie

    Frank,

    “But Mr McQuillan said the parade should not be seen as contentious.

    “It has been going for more than 20 years and the Parades Commission has not voiced any concerns,” he said.”

    Remember I said on the other thread that they’ll have “any number of mealy-mouthed, rational-sounding but entirely specious reasons for marching on Friday”?

    Roll over, Mystic Meg.

  • The Raven

    When I see and hear the barely-literate Mr McQuillan, I am minded – to coin a party phrase – of a quote from the West Wing, from Toby to the President:

    “Then make this election about smart, and not… Make it about engaged, and not… Qualified, and not… Make it about a heavyweight. You’re a heavyweight.”

    And Mr McQuillan is heavy only in body, and double chin. At what point will the voters of this country start to make it “about smart”?

  • Frank

    Big Maggie

    I’m not sure if McQullan’s other favourite band – Moneydig yc will be doing any ‘coat trailing’ on Friday night?

    http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=8043518861

  • Doctor Who

    USA

    You have a fixation with me which borders on obsesvive.

    You quote me often completely out of context, while at other times you completely mis-quote and mis-represent my point of view.

    You attribute this quote to me,

    “This is an isolated incident”,

    NO, I said “this is an isolated incident although not unique”. Which is the case, I also mentioned that a single murder of anyone should not be tolerated.

    With reference to the quotes in the press to Ryan McDaid, I said he may be right, but they contradicted other reports from so-called eye witnesses. I also aknowleged that it was a very difficult time and emotional situation which I didn´t envy. Although I do have experience of it.

    Again you mis quote me when I used the word “mere”, this was the word used by Rory in his mocking exageration of my point when he implied it was easy to make out people and figures from “a mere 100 yards”.

    USA

    “Undaunted you ranted on about how”

    “the opponents of unionism have been quick to point the blame to the wider unionist community, the PSNI and even Rangers FC supporters”.

    This is what is happening on this thread, that´s how I and other unionist posters have felt. I have whole heartedly condemned the murder, but certain posters see me as a unionist equivocal to the Neanderthals that carried out this act.

    me

    “Your timeframe of events is extemely jaundiced as is your sectarianism.”

    This was directed at Dec who has had some of his posts moderated recently, he also told me to fuck off, and called another poster “you cunt”. I find his posts sectarian in nature as many folk find yours the same.

    “people are keenly aware that Mr. McDaid was murdered by low life loyalist knuckledraggers.”

    This is a quote from me which you attribute to yourself.

    You

    “You even questioned the presence of the PSNI at the scene asking Eranu “Why eranu do you think they didn´t shoot? if indeed they where at the scene”.”

    Well this was a fairly good view point to eranu, who replied in a mature manner (tip for you usa), contradictory reports where placing two PSNI at scene of the assault, but the son´s quotes in the press put them 100 yards away in the patrol car. It was also strange to hear a republican call for NI police to shoot at people given their opposition to an armed police force in the past.

    “So Mr McDaids son was mistaken when he said the Police where not there but 100 yards away in a patrol car, watching.”

    Why is this not a possibility.

    “You forgot to mention that unionists used to have catholics as slaves, I cried the day mine was emancipated and taken from me, god he was a great shoe shiner”

    That quote was directed at Rory and was meant to be IRONIC, in answer to Rory´s amusing and flipant observation that the differnce between a loyalist and an Unionist was 30K per annum. I know you don´t do irony in the US of A, but please try.

    You say

    “and offend others belief systems with comments such as “psuedo secular twits like you both are”.

    In actual fact I was complaining that Paul and Maggie where offending others with different belief systems, unfortunately they seem to think having watched religulous and laughed at a few creationists, that qualifies them as atheists. But if you bothered to read the posts from Maggie and Paul who all through this thread have treated the death of Mr McDaid as a big joke, you will see that they deliberately try to offend. Paul even said he “bested” me. i hope you don´t want to “bested” me USA, but as you stalk me around slugger regularly im really not so sure that your intentions are honourable.

    You really out to read the posts in the context they where meant and to whom they are aimed at, that way we will avoid any mutual embarassment.

    Im glad you feel that the police should be able to do their job, others here think they spectated while a catholic was beaten to death with their blessing. I have repeatedly said that these thugs wether acting independently or as part of an organisation have no place in our society.

    A man is truly dead and the due process of law is being slowed down by the attention being switched from the perpetrators to the Police. Let the PSNI do their job, let this family grieve and may these barbarians rot in jail.

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “In actual fact I was complaining that Paul and Maggie where offending others with different belief systems, unfortunately they seem to think having watched religulous and laughed at a few creationists, that qualifies them as atheists. But if you bothered to read the posts from Maggie and Paul who all through this thread have treated the death of Mr McDaid as a big joke,”

    How dare you?! Who the hell do you think you are to judge others? USA is spot on with his assessment of your behaviour on this thread and others.

    You are the one who lacks any kind of reasoned argument. When I and others challenged you on this you descended at once to gutter insults.

    And then you accuse me of having no respect for Kevin McDaid and of treating his death as a joke!

    Go and hang your head in shame.

  • whom

    Maggie,

    what does this ” :^) ” mean?
    you seem to have used it quite a lot over the last couple of days. Are you using it to show how happy you are. Is it supposed to signify that you’ve just said something funny?

  • Big Maggie

    whom,

    And your point is…?

  • Rory Carr

    “Rory

    You forgot to mention that unionists used to have catholics as slaves,…” – Doctor Who

    Better by far to be an unwilling slave than a willing slaveheart, Doctor. Take a deep breath and try emancipating your mind from its self-imposed chains.

  • Doctor Who

    rory

    Surely a man of your obvious wit would have seen the irony in my post. Am I to take it that you do actually think that the difference between a unionist and a loyalist is 30k per annum.

    Is it a class thing?

    Was there such a sizeable middle class unionist population that constantly rejected terrorism simply because they where happy to let those downstairs carry out the dirty work.

    No it´s a ridiculous suggestion. While some unionist politicians over the years have certainly stoked the fire, by and large mainstream unionism has always condemned violence from whichever source it came from.

    As you join the other less eduacated individulas on this thread equating loyalist murderers with mainstream unionists, perhaps it´s time you unlocked the shackles of your mind and tried to understand unionism.

  • Paul

    Doctor Deluded

    No it´s a ridiculous suggestion. While some unionist politicians over the years have certainly stoked the fire, by and large mainstream unionism has always condemned violence from whichever source it came from

    Show me the money! Tell me when did paisley ever condemn murderer of Catholics?

    Tell me how Robinson didn’t stage a military raid on Clontribinet?

    Or when the good people of the oo condemned all the people murdered for, about and around Drumcree?

    Main stream unionism is loyalism in a boler hat and an orange sash.

    The sooner you deal with those facts the sooner you can hector nationalists about the IRA

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    “Surely a man of your obvious wit would have seen the irony in my post.”

    Were your gutter insults to me irony?

    “As you join the other less eduacated [sic] individulas [sic] on this thread equating loyalist murderers with mainstream unionists”

    Is this also ironic?

  • Paul

    I should have said “honestly hector nationalists about the IRA”

  • tom

    There has still been no statement from Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness, Barbara De Brun, Alban Mc Guinness, Mark Durkan or the spiritual leader of Catholics in Ireland Cardinal Sean Brady on the death of Mr. Mc Daid and the conduct of the PSNI on the day.

    The thundering silence from the great and the good of the nationalist leadership is in stark contrast to their reaction to the deaths of the two soldiers and the PSNI member which I do not condone, when they were screaming from the roof tops that Catholics had a moral duty to support the PSNI.

    I do not see Martin Mc Guinness standing shoulder to shoulder with Peter Robinson or Hugh Orde this time round, calling for punitive action against the loyalists involved. Nor do I hear any pronouncements from that other PSNI stalwart Alex Maskey on the conduct of the PSNI in Coleraine on Sunday or their dismal failure to prevent another innocent Catholic Being beaten to death. (The latest in a long line of such brutal murders of innocent Catholics in recent times.)

    Their silence on the conduct of the PSNI while this sectarian murder was taking place is shameful to say the least. Perhaps the timing of this sectarian murder so close to an election is unfortunate and they would rather ignore any awkward questions about the PSNI’s wiliness or ability to protect the Catholic population from massed loyalist attacks or sectarian murder.

    They have publicly endorsed the PSNI even though it is still run by Special Branch and MI5, with no accountability to our elected politicians whatsoever. They would appear to be a law onto themselves. So having a DPP meeting in Irish or talking about the machinations of the PSNI traffic branch will make no difference to operations conducted by the Special Branch or MI5 against the nationalist community or their ability to run these loyalist mobs at will. (Martina Anderson, please note).

    These integral elements of the PSNI command structure are well known for their anti Catholicism and their willingness to orchestrate sectarian pogroms and murder when it suits. Why SF the SDLP or the hierarchy of the Catholic Church ,chose to endorse the Special Branch MI5 and the PSNI is not something that any of the above mentioned would care to discuss during an up and coming election on the door step with the nationalist electorate or from the pulpit to the Catholic faithful on a Sunday.

    I am concerned that like previous Police investigations evidence will be mysteriously lost or altered especially if it generates a very negative public image for the command structure of the PSNI. The public perception of the PSNI is also of paramount importance to Gerry Adams Mark Durkan and Cardinal Brady given that they have invested so much in endorsing in this newly rebranded unionist Police Force and have propagated the myth of a new policing and political dispensation. At the end of the day it is still croppies lie down no matter how Adams Durkan and Cardinal Brady try and sell the lie of the new political dispensation it simply does not exist.

    I am deeply concerned that any PSNI investigation will be compromised and justice will not be done

  • Doctor Who

    USA

    Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

  • Doctor Who

    Big Maggie

    “Is this also ironic?”

    Yes well spotted big girl.

    BTW a friend of mine was knocked down by a car in Spain by a white Spanish driver. Arn´t all drivers, spaniards and white folks just sickening.

  • Paul

    LOL Maggie I don’t think the doctor spotted the Irony

    Kind of Ironic

  • Doctor Who

    Paul

    Duh!! Paul that´s really funny, still thinking the murder of someone is a big joke. Keep it up.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    As opposed to, say, the UDA, who consider it a way to brighten up a slow night?

    Seriously, tho — I think y’all… in fact, *all* y’all have reached the point where further “discourse” is useless.

    On the other hand, the endless harangue is an excellent metaphor / analogy for the problems in N.I. Everyone else’s paramilitaries are thugs, whilst “yours” (in the *STRICTLY* generic sense — I don’t want to single out Dr. Who) are brave defenders of the tribe. Every comment needs a response, every slight requires a rejoinder. Throw in few guns, a few explosives and run it over a few years and you’ve got the Troubles.

  • Paul

    Doc old son the murder of any one is no cause for humour

    Your defense of muderers, your dismisal of cause and efect, your attempts to deflect are however cause for making fun of you

    Maggie hoisted you on your own petard and I don’t think you even know where or why

  • Doctor Who

    Paul

    “Your defense of muderers,”

    Please retract or back the quote up. Or perhaps you wish to “bested” me again wee man.

    Dread C

    “Everyone else’s paramilitaries are thugs, whilst “yours” (in the *STRICTLY* generic sense—I don’t want to single out Dr. Who) are brave defenders of the tribe.”

    Dread in my mind all paramilitaries are thugs, never have they represented me and I have always distanced myself from them. As a small “u” unionist I have always struggled with certain dubious politicians who say they condemn violence but don´t see the irony (or perhaps they do) in appearing on platforms with some very evil characters.

    The forthcoming euro election will see me use my postal vote for the first time, I could never vote DUP, I have serious concerns about UUP pacts with Torries, and I could find no other re-course than to give my top preferences to the Alliance and Green Parties. I am sure there are a lot more “unionists” like me.

    The word tribe is a word often used by Bi Maggie but not in the context in which you use it. As you are someone who quite often posts thought provoking comment I am surprised you see this “two tribes” concept as black and white.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    “The word tribe is a word often used by Bi Maggie but not in the context in which you use it. As you are someone who quite often posts thought provoking comment I am surprised you see this “two tribes” concept as black and white. ”

    When wading into a bun-fight, one aims for the lowest common denominator. Like I said, that post wasn’t strictly for your consumption in toto.

    My main point was that this exchange has hit the proverbial wall. There is no exchange of ideas here, merely verbal broadsides and sniping. While I treasure the fact that the majority of sniping and broadsides in N.I. are now verbal, the next phase is for people of goodwill to come together to move forward.

  • Paul

    wee man …. been 25 years since some one called me that, Thanks(I mean that)

    And I will stand behind anything I said

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “While I treasure the fact that the majority of sniping and broadsides in N.I. are now verbal, the next phase is for people of goodwill to come together to move forward.”

    Agreed DC

    There does need to be a starting block e.g. unionists acceptance that groups like Sinn Fein have moved forward and the acceptance from others that Unionism is a broad family which should never be generalised. Vauge generalisations always come across as offensive.

  • Doctor Who

    Paul

    “And I will stand behind anything I said”

    I only want you to back up your claims that I am a defender of murderers. If you can´t do that you really should just shut up before you embarass yourself further.

    USA
    Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

  • Big Maggie

    Doctor Who,

    For what it’s worth I don’t consider you to be a defender of murderers.

    Paul,

    You really should retract that.

  • USA

    Doctor Who Spouts,
    Now telling others to “shut up” (did you invent that phrase also?). Another typical response from someone with an inflated sense of themselves.
    You are a disgrace.

  • Rory Carr

    “As you join the other less eduacated individulas on this thread…” – Doctor Who in response to an earlier post of mine.

    ’nuff said. Comment is superfluous (with apologies for any big words, Doc).

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Is this another Chris Donnely thread?

    I will not be blogging as he allows others to blog in my name.

  • Reader

    Big Maggie: Yes, a Loyalist is a Unionist. End of story. I can understand the irritation of some Unionists here when I refer to Loyalists as their “fellow Unionists”.
    Actually, that’s a euphemism too, isn’t it? Since you regard the murder as sectarian, not political, it is more certain that the murderers are Protestant than Unionist (especially since I expect some of them are actually Ulster Nationalist, if they were ever sober or articulate enough to say so).
    Besides your labelling being made more internally consistent, the other plus is that I think Doctor Who wouldn’t mind you referring to the murderers as Protestants. I wouldn’t.
    Go on, you know you want to.

  • Big Maggie

    Reader,

    No, I don’t.

  • Doctor Who

    rory

    Was left with a bit of egg on my face there Rory, although do you really have to be so sanctimonious.

    By the way did you ever do those O level resits all those years ago at Belfast Tech.

  • RepublicanStones

    Some things never change….

  • Big Maggie

    USA,

    I may not agree all the time with “Ulster” but he has a very valid gripe.

    How would you like it if somebody hijacked your handle and posted stuff that was at odds with your views? I think Chris could do worse than keep an eye on such things. They diminish Slugger.

  • Reader

    Big Maggie: No, I don’t.
    Why not Maggie? I have explained why protestant is a more accurate description of the murderers in this sectarian murder case than your preferred term(s). So why did you prefer the broad term ‘unionist’ over ‘loyalist’, yet you reject the undeniably accurate term ‘protestant’? Are you beginning to grasp what your broad brush work actually means?

  • Big Maggie

    Reader,

    Oh all right, if you insist. If you’ve lived in NI as long or longer than I have—that’s over a decade now—you’ll know that Unionists with few exceptions are Protestant, and Nationalists with few exceptions are baptized Roman Catholics.

    It’s shorthand, I’ll grant you that, but it’s common currency. So when a Nationalist is murdered by a Unionist mob it’s safe to say that few if any of his attackers are Catholic. They’ll be Protestants of some flavour or other, even if they attend church rarely if not at all.

    Both Nationalists and Unionists belong to one of two tribes. The designations “Catholic” and “Protestant” will cover the situation. I assume we’re in broad agreement here.

    When a Hindu Nationalist mob in Coleraine murders a Muslim Unionist then you and I know we’re in real trouble.

    I hope this is helpful.

  • barnshee

    pot on mqaggie I wish the press etc would use the designations protestant and catholic when identifyiny the tribes

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics
    And the Catholics hate the Protestants
    And the Hindus hate the Moslems
    And everybody hates the Jews

    But during National Brotherhood Week
    National Brotherhood Week
    It’s National Everyone-Smile-At-
    One-Another-hood Week
    Be nice to people who
    Are inferior to you
    It’s only for a week, so have no fear
    Be grateful that it doesn’t last all year!

  • Big Maggie

    Dreath Cthulhu,

    Many thanks for that! I’d almost forgotten Tom Lehrer.

    “Step up and shake the hand of someone you despise” is far better wisdom than can be found in the New Testament.

  • Rory Carr

    Was left with a bit of egg on my face there Rory, although do you really have to be so sanctimonious.

    I wasn’t being sanctimonious, Doc. I was really being a wee bit mean as I could see that your errors were more likely caused by mis-keying than poor spelling. But you did set yourself up for your own comeuppance with your own silly little attempt to demean my supposed lack of educational achievement. I say “silly” because I am not in the least fazed by attempts at juvenile insult. I am happy with myself and within myself for the most part and it’s good of you to admit to your faux pas.

  • Doctor Who

    Rory

    Was a little juvenile I must say, although my aim was not to demean you in any way.
    For what it´s worth I usually do find your comments humourous when intended, and at other times food for thought.