Gerry Adams on the PPS

According to the Sinn Fein web site Gerry Adams last night addressed one of Sinn Fein’s “Townhall meetings” in Craigavon. The target of his comments seems to have been the Public Prosecution Service.

“And there remain serious matters to be tackled in aspects of the justice system, not least of which is the role of the PPS.
 
The Unionist and British establishment always understood the key importance of controlling the law and justice and policing.
 
The Unionist state included a legal and judicial system that reflected its tradition and interests.”

He went on to attack the failure to bring prosecutions in a number of high profile cases

 “This despite the huge amount of evidence available concerning the existence of collusion; for example in the Pat Finucane Case, or uncovered by the Police Ombudsman’s office in its investigation into the murder of Raymond McCord jr and the activities of Mark Haddock; or the Oireachtas Committee report; the Barron Inquiry in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings; the Glenanne report into Collusion in South Armagh and the Mid Ulster ‘murder triangle’ and the reports by Stalker and Stevens and much more.
 
The law did not require the DPP to give reasons for their failure to prosecute in any of these cases.”

Interestingly he seems to have left out quite a number of other high profile cases where the have been no prosecutions such as the murder of Frank Hegarty or Eric Lutton or indeed the Claudy bombing.

Although Adams was of course speaking to the faithful and it is election time, it would be wise for unionists to ask whether or not such comments from the leader of Sinn Fein increase community confidence in the possibility of the devolution of policing and justice.

  • ??

    Turgon should nationalists and republicans not also have confidence in the police and justice systems, or it just for unionists? Your bigotry is really showing tonight.

  • Uladh

    As long as Turgon as his fellow unionists have faith in the north’s criminal and justice system then everything is ok. To hell with what 45% of the population might think.

  • Turgon

    ??,
    Are you saying that we need to arrange a policing and justice system in such a way to ensure that convicted criminals are happy with it?

    Are you concerned whether or not a convicted murderer such as Paul Butler is happy with policing and justice?

    Are you worried about Gerry Adam’s view on policing and justice? Is it now DUP policy that Sinn Fein have to be happy with the policing system for the DUP to be? If that is now DUP party policy I trust we will all be told?

  • ??

    Turgon SF represent the nationalist community, are you saying they shouldnt have faith in the police and justice systems?

    So are you happy in the PUP have confidence inthe police then? or is it just those nasty republican terrorists you dont like.

    why would i be worried,the DUP have a veto on p+j arrangements – allister would give that away to direct rule ministers.

    THere wil be no P+J devolution unless the WHOLE community has confidence.

    Ohh the good old christian bigotry of the TUV is on fire tonight.

  • Uladh

    [i]Are you saying that we need to arrange a policing and justice system in such a way to ensure that convicted criminals are happy with it?[/i]

    You have an incredibly good knack of conflating the views of a few dozen bloodstained ex-Provos with the nationalist community at large.

  • fin

    “Are you saying that we need to arrange a policing and justice system in such a way to ensure that convicted criminals are happy with it?”

    Yes, of course we do Turgon, the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, Maguire family, Judith Ward, etc etc, including all the ‘ordinary decent’ people wrongfully becoming ‘convicted criminals’ in the UK, Ireland or any country have a right to a ‘policing and justice system’ that they and everyone else is happy with.

    Methinks the marching season is underway and your hormones are playing up Turgon, your bigotry is running wild at the moment. Perhaps a good trashing for Jim Allister will calm you down, oooaaarrggh good trashing, maybe not, cold shower?

  • Big Maggie

    Turgon,

    “Interestingly he seems to have left out quite a number of other high profile cases”

    What’s so interesting about that? Ian Óg demands an inquiry into the murder of Billy Wright. He’s hardly likely to demand same for Pat Finucane or Rosemary Nelson.

    If he did then that would be of real interest.

  • John O’Connell

    The boys are getting obstreperous tonight. Turgon is really only saying that an Antichristian party cannot be allowed to determine policing and justice matters.

    Of course, neither in my opinion should those stuck in the Old Testament. Adams is only playing with an Old Testament that unionists, rejecting Christ, have been solidly endorsing ever since the plantation of Ulster.

  • johnwatcher

    go you and get another pork szechuan out of raymonds john…you thell him lol

  • iTurdonye

    turgon,

    you really are in true casual bigot mode tonight. wise the fuck up you and jimbo are in for a massive shock on june 4, which, many years later, will be followed by Papal rule over the entire 32 counties. hahaha you’ll have to go back from whence he came to avoid this impending calamity!!

  • Comrade Stalin

    Uladh:

    You have an incredibly good knack of conflating the views of a few dozen bloodstained ex-Provos with the nationalist community at large.

    That’s a disgraceful comment. Gerry Adams was never in the IRA.

  • Uladh

    Sorry, Comrade, I forgot. Apologies to all those directly affected and offended.

    I can’t believe Turgon gets away with these hate-filled utterances on a regular basis. The fact that he cannot differentiate between the nationalist community and ex-Provos makes it absurd for him to have the audacity to comment on matters such as policing and justice powers.

  • Expenses111

    It is rich for Gerry Adams to criticise the PPS. Does he now accept British Rule in all its glory??

  • alan56

    Of course we need an independent and impartial PPS. We must always keep questioning how it operates. Adams comments however seem a little hypocritical as he did not have the same criticisms of the ‘nutting squad’ all down the years

  • Expenses111

    Alan 56,

    Here here here. Adams is a complete hypocrite

  • ??

    ADAms may well be a hypocrite by his party does represent nationalism and it seems Turgon and his master Allister does not want nationalists to have any confidence in the policing and justice system let alone a say in it.

  • Minnow

    SHOCK HORROR, republican leader makes republican speech in front of republican audience

  • Expenses111

    IS this Turgeon Jimbo’s son? or assistant?

  • Uladh

    I believe that the manner in which Turgon manipulates this website for petty political gain is something which Mick Fealty to address quite soon, especially with an election fast approaching

    I can’t imagine a senior member of Sinn Féin or the DUP being given similar powers on this site. I assume Turgon to be a senior member given that party’s distinct lack of members.

  • Uladh

    **ought to address

  • alan56

    ??

    If that is what Turgon is seeking to do then I diagree with him. He is though probably inunciating a view within the unionist community where it is hard to take Adams comments on this issue seriously given the nature of many aspects of the PIRA ‘campaign’. Unionists and many nationalists regarded this campaign as sectarian in the extreme.

  • John O’Connell

    Comrade Stalin

    Gerry Adams was never in the IRA.

    Nice to see that the big lie is still alive and kicking.

  • alan56

    Hearing that SF expenses are to be highlighted in the next tranch of stuff from Telegraph

  • John O’Connell

    alan56

    Unionists and many nationalists regarded this campaign as sectarian in the extreme.

    It just goes to show that if there is ever to be a united Ireland, it can’t be delivered by Sinn Fein. Only the SDLP have the track record of decency to actually deliver a united Ireland.

  • alan56

    JOC

    Problem is that the SDLP have to get the votes. This is not imminent, certainly with the present performance of its current leadership.

  • John O’Connell

    Alan56

    No, but my analysis shows that people will eventually realise that they have to vote SDLP to get what they want. It’s just a matter of time before the votes come.

  • Expenses111

    The SDLP are dead in the water

  • granni trixie

    The PPS are deservicing of criticism but its hard to take it from someone who didnt raise his voice to show leadership against the rough ‘justice’ of punishment beatings/exiling (and other lethal forms of injustice).

    Also, during the troubles the peace movement recognised the importance of delivering a system of P&J in which everyone had confidence as a prerequesite to a lasting peace. What caused tension in the movement was between the thinking ‘peace before justice’ and ‘justice before peace’.Well, more or less we have policing and security now so justice sysem has to be sorted out and devolved – as reasons to be confident.

  • John O’Connell

    E111

    Just lulling you into a false sense of security.

  • Expenses111

    JOC

    It is well known that SF will continue to takes votes of SDLP as SDLP dont engage with people outside of their own. The only people on the door steps have been SF asking what can we do for you. It is that kind of thing people want not snobbery

  • John O’Connell

    E111

    your analysis doesn’t apply to Derry and is highly prejudiced.

  • Expenses111

    JOC

    IS Mark Durkan out knocking doors in Foyle??

    How is that highly prejudiced?

  • John O’Connell

    I was knocking doors with Mark and Alban Maginnes on Friday on a working class estate in Derry.

    We’re not all snobs. Not all Sinn Feiners are thugs.

  • Expenses111

    JOC

    Prove it!!

    What is your profession? Alban is a barrister

  • alan56

    JOC

    Interested to know, spin aside, how you think the SDLP campaign is going?

  • Expenses111

    JOC,

    I know from my own experience that anyone that calls at the door you tell them that you are going to vote for them in order to get rid of them. Otherwise you get a load of spin from those campaigning

  • Pigeon Toes

    Well apparently we can bring our concerns to then. Whether SDLP has the courtesy to respond or act is another matter.

    Would it surprise anyone that a local SDLP rep asked an employee , what an employees husband’s (Protestant ex armed forces) political allegiances were?

  • Turgon

    alan56,
    Thank you that is of course correct. We cannot have a situation in which everyone is happy with policing and justice. There will always be criminals of the supposedly political and non political variety who oppose the police and the courts.

    The reality is that the criminal justice system is not perfect. However, it seems pretty clear that most people have confidence in it and although there have been serious problems which to be fair include some of the issues Adams mentions there are also other issues where it looks like semi political decisions were taken which may have benefited republicans: the cases I mentioned above included.

    The problem is that it looks as if Sinn Fein are trying to claim that they must be happy with the DPP etc. for it to be acceptable to nationalists and then in the same breath demand it be politicised. In reality I suspect that will play quite poorly with very many nationalists (maybe even the majority of SF supporters) as I personally do not believe that the majority of SF voters actually support killing people. In addition I suspect even many SF supporters take an extremely dim view of their political representatives previous activities. The reasons why nationalists / republicans vote SF are undoubtedly complex, just as the reasons why people vote for a given unionist party are complex.

    uladh,
    I am not conflating the views of the majority of nationalists with those of SF’s leaders; my contention is that Adams is trying to do exactly that.

    Incidentally I am not a very senior member of the TUV. I only became a member shortly before Mick Fealty asked me to start blogging here. In addition I only joined the TUV because I was asked to on this website by a senior TUV member when I was a commentator and not a blogger.

  • alan56

    Pigeon Toes

    Tell us more. Innocent curiosity or something else?

  • Expenses111

    Turgeon,

    Are you Cedric Wilson in disguise? The failed politician?

  • Expenses111

    Folks,

    Check out the link. The Daily Telegraph are now on the back of Sinn Fein. About time in my book.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5301510/MPs-expenses-Sinn-Fein-claimed-500000-for-second-homes.html

  • alan56

    Turgon

    Thanks for the further explanation. Very clear. You do nor pretend that PPS is perfect. Also you note that the shortcomings do not just reflect nationalist,republican interests but also issues whicgh are important to unionist community too.
    If this is accurate then those who dismiss you as sectarian or biggoted are not only wrong but may have other less honourable motives,. I hope I am wrong.

  • Turgon

    alan56,
    Thank you. I am not a lawyer and I must admit to feeling that at times the justice system is dreadfully flawed. This is not merely about the troubles. I find the perversity of it amazing.

    However, it seems relatively apolitical and as far as I can see is no worse than that in other democracies (certainly better than in many). My concern is that what is largely a non orange green issue will be made one by the devolution of P&J. As it stands all decent people of all sides have a large interest in the normal P&J issues of arresting criminals etc. My concern is that devolution will see the whole thing bogged down in arguments about the relatively few issues where P&J intersects with orange greenery: that may have a major negative effect on the public’s confidence. It is worth noting that P&J is not to my knowledge devolved in Wales yet their devolution seems to proceed fairly efficiently.

    In addition I do have an enormous problem with the likes of Gerry Adams pronouncing about policing and justice. I am sorry if that sounds a bit bigoted but I suspect most unionists and very many nationalists are less than delighted by the thought of him telling us how P&J should be performed.

  • alan56

    Turgon

    Thanks for that. Many will understand your frustration with GA pronouncements but…and its a big and important but… P and J with active SF support is a major step forward, don’t you think?
    It will soon become clear if they are for real or not. The Mazzerene and Lurgan killings surely reprenented a big leap in terms of SF credibility.

  • dunreavynomore

    Did Gerry A mention the IRA murder of Paul Quinn, I wonder? Probably not.

  • John O’Connell

    alan56

    SDLP campaign going well. Could sneak in under the radar.

    E111

    World saver.

  • alan56

    JOC

    Love the optimism. Good luck…
    Somehow didn’t think you would say otherwise!

  • Expenses111

    JOC

    No need for sarcasm!!

    It will be interesting to see Mark D fight for his political life next year against Martina A for Foyle. My spies tell me she has it in the bag!!

  • alan56

    E111

    Those aren’t MI5 spies I hope!

  • That’s a disgraceful comment. Gerry Adams was never in the IRA

    Ha ha ha! very funny, Comrade. What exactly has been Gerry’s job all these years, I wonder??

  • Expenses111

    Alan56

    Those spies are def not MI5!!

    Red Avenger

    Gerry Adams used to be a nun spreading peace until his operation!!

  • Comrade Stalin

    Ha ha ha! very funny, Comrade. What exactly has been Gerry’s job all these years, I wonder??

    Re-read my comment again, this time noting that my tongue was firmly in cheek.

  • the joxer

    ‘In addition I do have an enormous problem with the likes of Gerry Adams pronouncing about policing and justice’

    Turgon, yeah, we’re on much safer moral ground with the Clontibret Raider, Peter The Punt, and his predecessor.

    After all Unionist politicians have never consorted with loyalist paramilitaries. -1974 UWC Srtike or Anglo-Irish Agreement, anyone?

  • ??

    amazing aht the TUV is critising SF for wanting to improve the PPS, maybe they want them to go back to killing police officers instead.

  • Salem

    Expenses11 – Martina doesnt have it in the bag ! At least Mark is working hard on all fronts truly representing the people of Foyle.

    Then there are some that just want to elect another Sinn Fein Windbag !

  • Turgon

    the joxer,
    Actually that is a very fair point and helps suggest that P&J would be best kept as a Westminster power as it is in Wales.

  • Turgon

    ??,
    “TUV is critising SF for wanting to improve the PPS”

    So you really think that Adams wants to improve the PPS? You do not actually believe that do you? Are you that naive?

  • It will be interesting to see Mark D fight for his political life next year against Martina A for Foyle. My spies tell me she has it in the bag!!

    Third election in a row the Shinners have said this. I bought that line the last time but won’t so easily now. The Shinners have never beaten the SDLP at any level in Derry and Martina is scary enough to Unionists – in a way that Mitchel wasn’t – that Mark has a deep well of tactical votes to draw on.

    If de Brún really crushes Maginness next month – say by 3:1 or so – I might start believing that one, not until.

    So you really think that Adams wants to improve the PPS? You do not actually believe that do you? Are you that naive?

    It’s not often I defend the bearded wonder, but do you really think that Adams wants the PPS to perform badly do you? You do not actually believe that do you? Are you that paranoid?

  • John O’Connell

    E111

    It will be interesting to see Mark D fight for his political life next year against Martina A for Foyle. My spies tell me she has it in the bag!!

    My spies tell me that allegedly Martina likes to glass people and therefore will have very serious problems in attracting the marginals.

  • the joxer

    Turgon,

    Your appreciation of my point is no doubt genuine and sincere. However the essential point is that people from all sides will have to swallow a bitter pill before accepting responsibility for controlling our own police force etc. Alternatively, we can take your view and hang on to the coat-tails of Britain…

  • Turgon

    the joxer,
    You see I do not think we have to swallow this pill. Indeed we should not as this pill may well turn out to be a poison. To be honest I do not think our politicians or our political system are up to the devolution of P&J. I think it puts the system of justice under unnecessary strain and in unnecessary danger of losing public confidence.

    I do not think P&J should be devolved in the foreseeable future. I think the current system, flawed as it is, is better than what devolution would bring us. You call it hanging onto Britain’ coat tails: I call it simply sensible. In Wales P&J are not devolved and their system of devolution seems to work just fine. Equally during the whole of the time which Scotland did not have devolution (several hundred years) it had a separate legal system. I do not think P&J needs to be devolved unless one wants to make political mischief with it. That could well bring the system of P&J into public disrepute: that would be a genuine disaster. Imagine if policing became the sort of political football which education already is.

  • Turgon:

    “This model of more limited legislative powers was partly due to the fact that Wales has had the same legal system as England since 1536, when it was merged with England. Ireland and Scotland were never conquered by England, and so always retained some distinct differences in their legal systems. The Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly both have deeper and wider powers.”

  • Comrade Stalin

    Turgon,

    Some of us have a sense of responsibility which means that we’re supposed to take an interest in the running of our own affairs rather than shirk it and blame others when things go wrong.

    The “stronger direct rule” line is Bob McCartney all over again. Tighter integration with the UK isn’t desired by anyone here. The mainstream UK political parties, whom you want to run our affairs, have never been accepted by the local population as representatives.

  • pól

    [i]JOC

    No need for sarcasm!!

    It will be interesting to see Mark D fight for his political life next year against Martina A for Foyle. My spies tell me she has it in the bag!! [/i]

    Word of warning E111. This man actually believes he’s the second coming of christ. He’s mentally unstable.

  • the joxer

    Turgon,
    I take your point. However the weakness in your argument is your blind faith that the administation of P and J has never been subject to ‘political mischief’ whilst under the control of Westminister. I would contend that ‘political miscjief’ is putting it mildly in terms of Britain’s lomg-standing abuse of policing and justice here.

    Keep tugging your forelock eastwards in the direction of your British masters, if you wish, whilst the rest of us look to pursue our right to control our own affairs.

  • Mick Fealty

    Uladh,

    “I can’t imagine a senior member of Sinn Féin or the DUP being given similar powers on this site. I assume Turgon to be a senior member given that party’s distinct lack of members.”

    First, of all Turgon will not be stepping down because of pressure applied by rival party hacks.

    Second, I expect all the politicos on this site to prosecute their own cases partially, as they see fit. My hope is always that in doing so they bring something of their own value to the party.

    Third, we don’t have any senior members of political parties blogging for us (though we have occassionally run individual pieces by them). Two of our bloggers were/are Sinn Fein when they were recruited (and both of them bring excellent value with their own blogging). No less than four of our team were members of the DUP (two stepped down after becoming elected representatives)… And again brought huge value.

    Fourth, the sight of one party hack telling another he’s being partisan, is risible. Stop playing the man, and take the ball on the bounce and play it (if you can). If you can’t, silence would serve you better than trying to muscle an opposing player off the field.

    [Don’t you just love election campaign – different playets, same strategies]

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    being against the transfer of police and justice is consistent with your position of not wanting those you dont deem fit to be in government to be involved in running it and presumably believe deserve to be in prison – Gerry et al….and I have little doubt that the majority of Unionists if they had the choice would want the same if it would not lead to a breakdown in the peace process.

    You could argue that the DUP are not being consistent have shared more or less your view before the last election but they have accepted the political realities and admirably move on.

    …but that takes us to the UUP/Tory/NF/crypto party muddle… who are now anti-GFA/STA implementation by talking against the transfer of Police and Justice using their arguements of convienience that if they cant run education etc they cant run justice. They should be getting their political arses kicked about this shocking political opportunism and hypocricy that aligns them with only the TUV.

    As someone who disagrees strongly with your views I dont see anything sectarian or bigoted in what you have written just and honest distaste for the way events have turned out in Norn Iron.

    ps Are the Englezes releasing some estimates of the cost of the transfer of Police and Justice this/next week?

  • Expenses111

    JOC

    How the hell does Martina glass people? Dont talk nonsense.

  • Pigeon Toes

    “Pigeon Toes

    Tell us more. Innocent curiosity or something else?”

    Probably hoped that if he keen enough to marry a Catholic, he could be persuaded to
    1. Vote
    2. Vote SDLP

    Hardly appropriate in the workplace though….

    Think that she might have had a job persuading employee or her husband.

  • Glencoppagagh

    One group which will be eagerly anticipating the devolution of P&J will be the legal-aid junkies. They know a Stormont minister will be a pushover
    when they suggest that the current level of payments is totally inadequate. There’s quite a lot of them and they want sweets as well.

  • ??

    but that takes us to the UUP/Tory/NF/crypto party muddle… who are now anti-GFA/STA implementation by talking against the transfer of Police and Justice using their arguements of convienience that if they cant run education etc they cant run justice………

    the tories supported the recent legislation going through westminster, the UUP under Emptey oppossed it. so who is right and who does Jim whats his name support?

  • PT, I thought the workplaces was supposed to be a politically neutral working environment, a concept that the SDLP would have strongly advocated prior to its inception.

    Perhaps the SDLP leadership has failed to convince some of its grassroots activists of PNWE’s merits.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    ??

    Quite right. I think this is a difficult issue for SF and the DUP (and to use a Turgonist Roman analogy*) the 2 consuls Marty and Robbo – but surely the Aliance Party – especially as they are likely to be the main beneficaries and the SDLP should be pointing the finger at the UU Cryptos as they are competing for the ‘middle’ ground.

    *The two consul system seems to be a very good way to control faction fighting in Norn Iron and has worked pretty well as it did for the Roman Republic – backstabbing aside.

  • Comrade Stalin

    especially as they are likely to be the main beneficaries and the SDLP should be pointing the finger at the UU Cryptos as they are competing for the ‘middle’ ground.

    Given that the UCUNF signed a transfer pact with the TUV a couple of months ago, and (as you have noted) made a token protest against devolution of policing and justice powers by voting against the legislation in the Commons, I think it’s reasonably safe to say that they aren’t in the middle ground at all.

    They aren’t a threat to the SDLP, not unless you’re as deluded as they are into believing that “Roman Kethlicks” are going to come over to them in their droves.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    CS,

    I think you are right the statement above might suggest I believe that the UU/Cryptos are a moderate party. I do not – but I do think they have a small, probably growing minority of moderates and with the influence of the Tories this number is likely to continue to grow and they will increasingly compete for the middle gorund.

  • John O’Connell

    E111

    How the hell does Martina glass people? Dont talk nonsense.

    Why don’t you ask her – has she ever glassed anyone or two or so?

  • Gabriel

    I do know Gerry was going to retire November 2008 but had to postpone it until the end of this year.That was from someone very close to him.

  • Expenses111

    JOC,

    Prove it. Mark D better watch out then!!

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sammy, agreed but in principle this shouldn’t be a major issue. It’s not hard to explain to the voting public the reality that is UCUNF, and as long as that message goes across the middle ground is safe. Having UCUNF out of the way will benefit the DUP tremendously so it’s expected that they will be doing what is necessary to ensure the centre ground is underpinned while they make their case in the other direction.

  • John O’Connell

    E111

    Prove it.

    Ask her if she’s ever glassed anybody.

    Mark D better watch out then!!

    You bet!