“Nice” IRA men chaperone actor

After the controversy surrounding the last film luvvie to tell us about the IRA, I suppose it should come as no surprise that another actor from the film “50 dead men walking,” Jim Sturgess has told us that some of the ex-IRA members he met “…were genuinely nice, passionate people.” He goes on to tell us “…it was a thrilling undercover ride, really. We would go into these pubs that we would never normally be allowed to hang out in, but because of who we were with we were vouched for. I would definitely not do that as an average citizen visiting Belfast. So it was exciting, becoming part of the city — or at least pretending to. Soaking it all in.” Maybe Mr. Sturgees has been captured by the “romance of the rebellion:” I wonder if he should visit some of the places where these “passionate people” committed their acts or visit some victims of these people’s “passion.” I suppose most likely this is simply nonsense to try to promote the film: the fact that it is pretty offensive nonsense will be unlikely to affect Sturgees.

  • Not the first one of the cast to fall for the romanticised slaughter of a population:

    http://redemptionsson.blogspot.com/2008/09/hollywood-defends-terrorism.html

  • Mark McGregor

    People can be nice when you meet. Unionists stunned.

    Petition?

  • Shore Road Resident

    It’s enough to make you wonder how the provos failed to charm their unionist neighbours.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes, Turgon. Just another bit of nonsense from the most insecure profession in the world.
    Best to simply ignore rather than giving them more publicity, their lifeblood.

  • NCM

    IRA volunteers were soldiers, and soldiers can be genuinely nice and charming people, despite the fact that their chosen profession is to kill. If these soldiers were American fighter pilots and not Provos, would anyone raise an issue? Yet the average American fighter pilot probably kills 50 times the number of people in war than the average IRA volunteer.

  • No their chosen hobby was to murder. Not exactly a profession unless they are emulating the Son of Sam.

  • joeCanuck

    Meant to say insecure and immature.
    Many of them are complete idiots even though good actors and actresses.

  • Driftwood

    Many witnesses said how Reinhardt Heydrich (and Himmler etc)were exemplary characters at dinner parties, loved their families blah blah. Great craic no doubt.
    http://www.bookstove.com/Non-fiction/Ordinary-Men-by-Christopher-R-Browning.34054

    The only difference between Himmler and our Deputy first minister is that Himmler never actually murdered anyone directly.

  • Driftwood

    Should add that the resemblance between Reserve Battalion 101 and present day SF is so acute.

  • Mark McGregor

    This is just stupid.

    I’ve met some IRA members and they are just lovely, really nice people.

    I’ve met some that were utter bastards.

    Sorta how any group of people you meet works out.

    I saw Jim Allister in the flesh recently and was surprised how decent he seemed as a person. Hated his politics, seemed like a pretty sound guy – likeable. Jim Nicholson for all his professional smooze didn’t make the same impact.

    Strange.

  • McGrath

    I sat beside Ken Maginnis on an airplane flight, struck me as a reasonable and nice guy.

    I have met Peter Robinson, struck me as a bit hermetic, but I couldn’t condemn the guy.

    I worked with a convicted IRA member, if I hadn’t known his history I would never have guessed it.

    People are usually nice when they want something.

    Oh, I had a brief encounter with Ian Paisley, struck me as a raving nut job.

  • Harry Flashman

    I think Turgon’s point is that the air head actor (and we pause to wonder how it is that modern society pays so much heed to the opinions of someone who is paid to speak lines other people wrote while pretending to be someone else entirely) was getting himself worked into an onanistic fervour about going to “dangerous” bars with oooh, “dangerous” men while not going to visit other places in Belfast once visited by these self same characters.

    Like you know, Donegall Street, Oxford Street Bus Station, the La Mons House Hotel, the site of the former Abercorn Restaurant, those kind of places.

    Sturgess might have found those venues a bit more enlightening.

  • josephine

    turgon: it’s called the “jonathan powell syndrome”, a cousin of its swedish counterpart in stockholm.

  • latcheeco

    To recap once more from Turgon’s last thread on this subject. Turgon is badly afflicted with the green-eyed monster: he lives for the day when Scarlet Johannson finally reveals her secret wish to have been been a B-Special down in Fermanagh. Until then he just mumbles begrudgery.

  • Glencoppagagh

    The IRA was always a purveyor of pornography for the more effete class of lefties. Killing people in uniform gave these people vicarious thrills to compensate for their own impotence.
    They express their gratitude by making adoring films.

  • Captain Slough

    Actors are useful people. Didn’t Melanie Griffith discover that the Holocaust happened in the Second World War.

  • fin

    I don’t think alot of people understand what they post on threads here, a constant arguement is that the rule of Law, when a soldier shot a volunteer that was good he was upholding the Law, but, when a volunteer shot a soldier he was breaking the Law, thats bad.

    But than the same people with this thought process start name dropping people like Himmler they seem to mentally block out the fact that Himmler was actually on the right side of the Law in that situation and so Himmler would actually have agreed with their point of view.

    A living example of this is Nelson Mandela, in prison Amnesty International did not offer him support because part of his conviction included terrorism, hence the same attitude says that apartheid government good, current SA government bad because it evolved from a “terrorist” organisation, the ANC, of which Mandela was a leader.

    This concrete attitude towards lawful good and unlawful bad is prevalent among a set of posters here, and I think it is a poor justification for their beliefs, but I think for them it is the only way they can deal with the recent past in NI, until I suppose a new revised past can be written for their children to believe in.

  • percy

    and the prize goes to latcheeco for scoring a direct hit with comic excellence.

  • Turgon

    percy,
    Indeed it was very funny, though I do not remember too many Fermanagh B specials trying to blow up children at Tullyhommon.

  • fin

    Turgon, are these the B-Specials you’re talking about……….

    The B-Specials were, according to Constantine Fitzgibbon, recruited from the Ulster Volunteer Force as well as from the “extremist Protestant riff-raff.” They were he says the armed wing of the Orange Order, which controlled the Northern State, and were he suggests the nearest thing to Nazi Storm Troopers that the British ever produced, conducted themselves in much the same way as the Sturmabteilung did once Hitler had come to power. The Specials he says immediately launched an intensive persecution of the Catholic minority and that it was comparable to the “persecution of the Jews by the S.A. in 1933 and 1934” resulting in a state approaching civil war that would last from 1920 to 1923. During this period he wrote, casualties, mostly Roman Catholics, estimated at some 300 and that there were cases of B-Specials “clubbing men to death and similar atrocities.” [88]

    Fitzgibbon notes that B-Specials were not disbanded until 1970, and this on the orders of the British government. The Northern Irish government’s stated their primary purpose had been to guard the Border against I.R.A. raids from the south, he says and since they were home-based meant that a high percentage came from the Protestant section in the mixed border counties where sectarianism was notably violent. Fitzgibbon notes however that the B-Specials also supported the R.U.C. in riot control duties, as late as 1968 in Derry and 1969 in Belfast. Duties he suggests, which they were entirely unsuited for, which they were sometimes used as a pretext for bashing the Catholics. The B-Specials he says, became, for the Catholic minority in the North of Ireland and for Irish nationalists in all Ireland, “the most hateful symbol of Orange oppression in the Province.” [89]

  • Turgon

    fin,
    The B specials were unacceptable and involved in a number of highly disreputable incidents. I note, however, that you have to go back as far as the 1920s to find allegations of murder. Events which were totally unacceptable and to be resolutely condemned. Any and all more recent immoral and sectarian acts by them are also to be utterly and unreservedly condemned.

    I am willing to condemn these incidents unreservedly and indeed say that I am well pleased that the specials were disbanded.

    I await your condemnation of the IRA using a command wire to watch whilst they blew up the Protestant children (with no security forces present) at Tullyhommon.

  • percy

    turgon,
    its up to all of us individually to choose to free ourselves from the prison of bitterness and hatred.

    some wear it as a badge of honour, or even a virtue.
    Consistently winding yourself up with threads like this does no-one any good whatsoever.
    Jim Allister TUV is a false prophet, as all he does is exploit your resentment.
    The day you tell him to go shove his hate up his ass will be a great day for you and the family.
    But you’ve got to really want to be FREE.

  • Turgon

    percy,
    I merely feel that murderers and those who support murder have no place in a democracy. It is the murderers and their cheerleaders who have shown their bitterness and hatred not those of us who oppose them.

    Unlike you, I can and do condemn all murder: you work out for yourself which of us is stuck in the prison of hatred and bitterness.

    Now remind me do you condemn the attempt to wipe out the Protestant children of Tullyhommon or would you like to try a different way of avoiding answering the question?

  • Dave

    “I merely feel that murderers and those who support murder have no place in a democracy.”

    Bob Dylan and the American playwright, Sam Shepard, jointly wrote a song called ‘Brownsville Girl.’ One of the lines in it goes: “People don’t do what they believe in; they just do what’s most convenient, and then they repent.” I think the first and second parts are correct, but why repent when you can easily claim that there never was any sin? That is what’s most convenient.

    I agree that the Shinners were murderers who should rightfully have no place in a democracy. While the State does not officially dispute that they were murderers, it does fudge the issue, and render the civic/moral judgement redundant by rejecting the claim that murderers have no place in a democracy. Having actively colluded with these murderers for the express purpose of injecting them into the political process, the State finds it most convenient to ensure that the pathology and abhorrence of that ilk is kept from public view lest the State is condemned rather than celebrated for their expediently. Likewise, those who were encouraged to mistake civil murderers for heroic tribe-defenders, and who voted for them, also find it most expedient to filter that seedy reality though a self-serving prism where absolution sans the need for redemption. You win the moral argument, but your win is meaningless because the powers-and-voters-that-be are are not guided by morality or other principles, only by “what’s most convenient.”

    In regard to Sturgess, I’ll leave you with a quote from Homer Simpson: “Celebrities: is there anything they don’t know?”

  • Economic Hitman

    “Some people have told me that we need fascism. We have the Orange order. We have the B-Specials. What need have we of fascism?”

  • Harry Flashman

    The B Specials? Christ of almighty are we still droning on about them?

    The B Specials were a part time police reserve force made up mostly of yokels and clodhoppers who were of no relevance, repeat no relevance, whatsoever to the period of sectarian bloodletting commonly known as “the Troubles” which consumed our community from the late 1960’s until the end of the century.

    The B Specials were a phantasm, a bogey man, dreamed up by parents to make naughty children behave at bedtime, anyone who seriously discusses the role of the B Specials today is as idiotic as those of Paisley’s ilk who tell you Jesuit stormtroopers specially trained in the Vatican were behind the IRA campaign.

    You might as well discuss the role of Home Guard in the battle of Stalingrad.

  • Now Harry as someone from Derry you should know that it was fear of the B Specials being sent into the Bogside that helped fuel the desperation of the fighting in August 1969 and the welcome the British received.

  • fin

    Turgon,
    The author did not go back to the 1920’s to find evidence of B-Specials misdeeds, he started their with their formation and any quick look at their history will show you that this behaviour continued until they were disbanded, and then continued again when they joined the UDR.

    However the point I would like to make is, this organisation was founded, armed, paid, and directed by the government of NI, your condemnation is of individual incidents and not of their paymasters, who are ultimately responsible for their actions.

    You ask me to condemn the IRA for the failed bombing at Tullyhommon, ABSOLUTELY, not only because it would possibly have killed people I went to school with (I’m quite local to there) but because it was wrong. I really don’t think you will find many republicans out their who don’t have the same attitude as me. Furthermore like most republicans I condemn the bomb that did go off that day in Enniskillen and there have been other events where as a republican I think the IRA done the wrong thing.

    I also feel they’re are many things for unionism to be deeply ashamed of, to allow a one party unionism state who treated their fellow human beings like animals, who allowed organisations such as the specials and the UDA to exist within the law, who created a corrupt police force, for denying a whole community a right to political representation, social housing, access to employment, its a long and shameful list of abuse of power.

    It continues today, when nationalists watch unionist electioneering consisting of bragging rights about who is going to put the most manners on republicans.

  • fin

    Harry, you forgot to mention they were also largely made up of members of the UVF, you also fail to mention that members largely went on to join the RUC Reserve and the UDR, two organisations who membership is intertwined with unionist paramilitaries and who only disappeared in recent times.

  • Turgon

    fin,
    “Furthermore like most republicans I condemn the bomb that did go off that day in Enniskillen and there have been other events where as a republican I think the IRA done the wrong thing. ”

    How magnanimous of you. I note you think the IRA “done the wrong thing.” You see I think by their very existence the UVF UDA et al. were completely and totally the “wrong thing” and all their actions were wrong. Shame on you if you cannot say that about the IRA: then again that might make it difficult to vote for Gildernew.

  • latcheeco

    Feck lads chill…it was just funnier than using RUC woman or greenfinch. How your minds do wander!
    Percy,
    Thank you very much,I’ve got a block booking: I’ll be here till Ireland’s free 🙂

  • fin

    Turgon, the B-Specials where recruited from the ranks of the UVF, and for many years the UDA was a legal organisation. But I guess you only condemn them for their ‘illegal’ periods

    The RUC and UDA were intertwined with unionist paramilitaries, undercover agents employed by the State, such as Brian Nelson imported weapons and identified innocent people to be murdered.

    Your condemnations count for nothing, because you are an individual who hides behind the ‘Legal’ arguement, the aparthied government, the nazi government, the Pinochet government, and many others were the ‘Lawful’ and ‘Legal’ goverments of their respective countries. The extermination of Jews, gipsies etc, the disappearing and murder of socialists and trade unionists, the treatment of Blacks as 2nd class citizens were all legal and lawful, the resistance to these acts were unlawful and illegal.

    The question is not do governments behave in a legal fashion, they generally do, the question is do governments behave in the proper manner, are their actions morally correct.

    I believe that NI was (and is) a corrupt state and hence so was its single party government, and because of that NO I can’t condemn the IRA in the blanket fashion you would like, just as I can’t condemn Nelson Mandela for planning to plant bombs, or the terrorist organisations that came about to fight Pinochet and the other South American dictators, nor can I condemn anyone who tried to assassinate Hitler, who was the democratically elected German Leader.

    Tell me Turgon, do you condemn Nelson Mandella, the South American trade unionists, do you believe its wrong to assassinate democratically politicans like Hitler

  • Turgon

    fin,
    You see I do not hide behind the legality argument. I am sure there was collusion; we can argue about how much but there was some and it was completely wrong and immoral.

    Incidentally I do condemn the fact that Mandela and his cronies tried to blow up white farmers. However, I condemn the evil apartheid regime much more. Many fought that regime without recourse to acts of violence: Helen Suzmann and Desmond Tutu spring straight to mind.

    Being brought up near Pettigoe I am sure you suffered not an ounce of the discrimination which blacks suffered in South Africa. To try to compare yourself to them shows absolutely classic MOPEry. Comparing the IRA to those opposed to Pinochet, Hitler etc. simply shows how spectacularly skewed your moral compass is: you must be close to the prize for best MOPE of the year.

    Your bringing Nazi’s into it is a classic example of Godwin’s law which tends to mean you have lost the argument.

    Now I have condemned all the people you asked me to but you tell us that you cannot produce a blanket condemnation of the IRA. Actually most people in NI can but clearly you cannot; I guess that explains why you are a morally bankrupt cheerleader and apologist for murder.

  • fin

    Turgon, either you are looking for a way out (which as you) or you don’t understand Godwins Law, I compared noone to the the Nazi’s or Hitler.

    Again I did not compare myself or the nationalist community to the aparthied regime.

    Neither did I compare the IRA to anyone Turgon.

    Neither did I ask you to condemn acts of collusion

    I stated that a state with an engineered (unionist) majority, a single party (unionist) party government, with a unionist police was improper and morally wrong.

    Many people in NI also tried to change the corrupt state peacefully, indeed the DUP was founded to oppose the civil rights movement and unionist civilians joined the polices brutal attacks on civil rights marches.

    I find it strange that you are keen for me to join you in condemning an attempted bombing which may have killed innocent children, yet you find it difficult to condemn a regime which condemed entire generations of children to be 2nd class citizens. I can only draw the conclusion that you are using the potential loss of life at Tullyhommon as a cynical arguement.

    So let me ask the question again do you believe a government has a moral obligation to behave in a proper manager towards all its citizens?
    the reason I ask is that, for the reasons I’ve already given, I don’t believe the goverment of NI fulfilled that obligation

  • Turgon

    fin,
    I have done a number of blogs stating that the old Stormont regime was morally wrong in its treatment of Roman Catholics and indeed also frequently its treatment of working class Protestants. It was a state for the Big House and Quite Big Hosue unionists. Although I was 1 when it fell I have no difficulty saying it was wrong and indeed people like me (quite big house Prods) need to say sorry for discrimination.

    However, the simple fact is that I condemn the Stormont regime but also condemn IRA terrorists and all their works just as I do loyalist terrorists and all their works.

    Your problem is that you cannot do likewise because you are a terrorist cheerleader: you cheerlead for a group of sectarian murderers. Like quite a number of such cheerleaders, however, you do not even have the moral courage to admit that you are a cheerleader.

  • fin

    Turgon, I waving my pompoms around as I type.

    amazing how such a small number of people ran and controlled the state, all by themselves.

    it is good that the apparatus of that failed state has finally started to be dismantled after so many years

  • Turgon

    Yes fin, I see you have given up trying to defend yourself. As some one from Fermanagh put Fermanagh into this search page and tell me which of the sectarian murders by your friends you support: or is it just all of them?

  • fin

    Turgon, As the most of them were security forces or contractors working for the security forces, to be honest, it’s easier for me to name the ones I don’t support.

    I wasn’t aware that search facility existed, you refer to the IRA as sectarian repeatedly, however the vast majority of those killed were security forces or contractors working for the security forces.

    defination: Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination, prejudice or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement.

    I can see how it can be applied to the NI goverment, but to the IRA on the information you have provided.

    Can I also add that that list includes Michael Naan (35) and Andrew Murray (25) both stabbed to dead (13 and 19 wounds) also that the same army abused the corpse of Seamus McElwaine by kicking it about the field after he had been shot. The same british army fired on my parents, and my neighbours, that verbally abused myself and my family and relatives, the same army that for no reason arrested my relatives and held them for indepth interrogation. Also the same police force who came within 1 metre of shooting me but fortunately (for me) shot a young girl next to me.

    so whats your point Turgon, as Taigs we should lie down and take our beatings form our lords and masters

  • Turgon

    fin,
    You see I have never suggested that you lie down and take beating. I have condemned all such. I just condemn criminality and murder. Of course I condemn the murders of Michael Naan and Andrew Murray.

    As to the IRA being non sectarian let us list the names of protestants murdered in Fermanagh by the IRA who were not members of the security forces, had no connection with them and had done nothing even by your perverted standards of justice to deserve death shall we:

    Armstrong, Wesley
    Armstrong, Bertha
    Bullock, Emily
    Crowe, Sylvia
    Deering, Douglas
    Gault, Samuel
    Hill, Ronnie
    Johnston, Kit
    Johnston, Jessie
    Johnston, Gillian
    Kilfedder, Margaret
    Liddle, Gordon
    McAdam, Raymond
    McCabe, John
    Megaw, John
    Mullan, William
    Mullan, Agnes
    Price, Alan
    Quinton, Georgina
    Trotter, William
    Wilson, Marie
    Woodhouse, Helen

    And that is using your utterly perverse definition of innocent victim whereby a policeman doing his job, a retired soldier, a civilian working on a police station are all “legitimate targets.”

    All those names, (22 out of 112) even with your own pathetic little weasel worded excuses and still you claim the IRA were non sectarian. Of course we could do exactly the same in every county in Northern Ireland.

  • latcheeco

    Turgon,
    If you really do believe what you write, why not direct your ire at the true culprits for the ensuing sectarian slaughter on both sides: the government that set up the sectarian state.

  • Turgon

    latcheeco,
    The state was very far from perfect: indeed it was grossly flawed. However, two things: firstly the fact that it was flawed gave no one of any side the right or excuse to indulge in sectarian murder.

    Secondly individuals have to take responsibility for their actions: a specific person shot Douglas Deering, a specific person planted the Enniskillen bomb, a specific person watched to see the children die at Tullyhommon (thankfully s/he watched in vain).

  • Reader

    fin: undercover agents employed by the State, such as Brian Nelson imported weapons and identified innocent people to be murdered.
    See; that’s where all the bigger conspiracy theories founder. What’s the point in targeting innocent people? You could achieve as much with a telephone directory. If you produce a conspiracy theory that makes tactical sense to a state with an IQ of 100 or more you might get a bit of traction.

  • Harry Flashman

    @Garibaldy

    “Harry as someone from Derry you should know that it was fear of the B Specials being sent into the Bogside”

    Precisely my point Gari, the fear of the B’ men was nothing more than a phantasm, the nationalist community had elevated this group of farm boys into such a bogey man that when they eventually emerged they were treated with little short of derision.

    Read Clive Limpkin’s “Battle of the Bogside” as he describes his disappointment at their arrival in Waterloo Square, the sight of them in ill-fitting ex army uniforms carrying rusty old bolt action rifles and walking sticks and the ones at the back shuffling as they tried to keep in step.

    @fin

    I have no doubt that in the 1920’s many of the Specials were UVF men, mostly veterans of the Great War, here’s the thing though in the 1920’s most members of the Irish Army and Gardai would also have been IRA men, many also veterans of the war.

    That’s how the two states divided at that time, neither the Northern state nor the Free State could claim that there were no sectarian murderers among the ranks of their security forces, there were many on both sides. Why is it that you only single out the North for condemnation?

    The fact remains however that by the 1940’s, if not even earlier, the B Specials were a joke, a useful reserve of boyos to drag out and make up the numbers for road blocks or search operations, nothing more. It was only in the fevered imaginations of the Northern Nationalist community that the B Specials constituted a frightening force.

    The fact that after such a long passage of time there are still people who subscribe to that myth is an indication of hysterical paranoia.

  • Burning Ferny

    Turgon..

    You need to set up your own blog. You could rant away to your heart’s content. Hate..hate..hate. Hatred and venom heaped on the Irish of Northern Ireland. Wouldn’t that make you feel better? But wait..no one would read the crap. So you come here to Slugger, which has a lot of readers, and we are forced to put up with your mouth. I don’t know what happened to you during the “troubles,” but you need to move on. Quit dumping your head trips on every one else. Mick allows all people voice their comments here. Personally, I think you are abusing Mick’s fairness. I have enjoyed some of your post’s in the past..but I have decided that a few rare gems aren’t worth the hassle. When you rant like this..I just get a headache. So I won’t be reading anything with your name on it.

    You Turgon, and people like you, are going to be the reason there is never going to be true peace in NI for the Irish people. Do you have children? They must literally be basket cases listening to you rant day and night.

    Fin..I respect your comments and trying to calm this thread down. But when you are dealing with closed minds, it’s just whistling in the wind.

  • Turgon

    Burning Ferny,
    Oh so I am the one filled with hate whereas fin is trying to be reasonable. Strange: I can condemn any and all murders but fin cannot if they “were security forces or contractors working for the security forces.”

    I would have thought that having enough hate to support killing someone is the sort of reason there may never be peace here.

  • fin

    Turgon of the 22 “sectarian” 11 were from the Enniskillen bomb, one a member of the judiciary (which as pointed out recently by the SDLP is still skewed in favour of unionism)and one was a Catholic(?)

    The rest is generally civilians caught up in attacks on the security forces or mistake in identity.

    Armstrong, Wesley – Enniskillen bomb
    Armstrong, Bertha – Enniskillen bomb
    Bullock, Emily – shot in attack on Husband (UDR)

    Crowe, Sylvia – killed in bomb attack on UDR patrol

    Deering, Douglas – Justice of the Peace
    Gault, Samuel – Enniskillen bomb
    Hill, Ronnie – Enniskillen bomb
    Johnston, Kit – Enniskillen bomb
    Johnston, Jessie – Enniskillen bomb
    Johnston, Gillian – claimed a mistake of identity
    Kilfedder, Margaret – bomb attack on home previously owned by member of UDR

    Liddle, Gordon – bomb attack intended for 2 relatives in the RUC

    McAdam, Raymond – Catholic

    McCabe, John – shot during gun attack on RUC officer

    Megaw, John – Enniskillen bomb
    Mullan, William – Enniskillen bomb
    Mullan, Agnes – Enniskillen bomb

    Price, Alan – mistake of identity for regular postman who was UDR

    Quinton, Georgina – Enniskillen bomb
    Trotter, William – booby-trap bomb on his field, don’t honestly know if it was intended for him

    Wilson, Marie – Enniskillen bomb

    Woodhouse, Helen – passenger in booby trapped car of RUC member

    Care to discuss the nationalists on that list, I see Vol. Louis Leonard is listed as killed by Loyalists, should ask Captain Reese about that, the army also raided his family home on the day of his funeral. James Murphy (SF) same story, again believed to be the BA, Michael Naan (civil rights activist) and Andrew Murray multiple stab wounds (19 & 13) from BA patrol (media tried to claim they were volunteers, then they were killed by the IRA, and tried to hide the details of their deaths)Patrick Kelly (civil rights) murdered and body dumped in Lough Erne, believed UDR responsible, not to mention the arrest and internment of innocent catholics,

  • Turgon

    fin,
    Yes I condemn the murder of any and all nationalists by anyone; if they were murdered by members of the police or army that is, if anything, even more disgusting than by loyalist paramilitaries.

    You do not condemn all murders: you are very selective in whose murders you condemn.

    I also see that you have excused or explained away each and every one of the sectarian murders I have mentioned. This simply demonstrates that your are a supporter of sectarian murder.

  • fin

    Turgon, now you’re been silly, I posted a defination of sectarianism for you previously,

    I engaged in debate to correct points you made, I invested time correcting them, however, like the dinosaurs on both sides you’re a broken record, and you are unable to break with the ulta-unionist mantras of the past, I’ll exit this discussion now, its pointless to continue, I hope on day you can move on and risk looking at these things from the other sides perspective, and shoulder your share of the blame

  • Turgon

    fin,
    It really is very simple: either you condemn all murders or you do not. I do you do not.

    I am afraid the vast majority of people regard the IRA as sectarian murderers. So you are the supporter of sectarian murder and the cheerleader for the murderers. I am not.

  • Mayoman

    “So you are the supporter of sectarian murder and the cheerleader for the murderers. I am not.”

    But the party you align yousrelf with is!
    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/an-overdue-spotlight-on-stoneyford/

    The hypocrisy just oozes out of you Turgon! If you really “condem all murderers” come out now and distance yourself from the TUV and then go and apologise to the family of Ciaran Heffron for your involvement in/support of a group that openly supports one of the people alleged to have been involved in his murder.

    You find it easy to be black and white with Fin. Why not hold that standard to yourself?

    Here’s an idea. Why not start your own party the Unionist Party With No Connections to Paramiltaries Whatsover (UPWNCTPW). There must be a few telephone boxes near that you could use for your meetings.