“the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein”

More evidence, I’d suggest, of an ongoing “bid to exert control in nationalist areas in particular..” Via Newshound. Yesterday’s Irish News carried a report of a man forced to wear a placard claiming he was a house burglar and a thief and stand on a traffic island on the Andersonstown Road. The Irish News also reported Republican Sinn Féin’s criticism of last week’s briefings by those anonymous “senior republican sources”.

“We believe the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein and no longer claim to be the republican movement.”

[How about Provisional Sinn Féin? – Ed] Adds Related news?

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  • Grassy Noel

    FACT: RSF linked to CIRA. CIRA a criminal conspiracy involved in extortion, drug dealing, robbery and general violence against nationalist residents of west Belfast.

    FACT: youths made to stand with placards as a result of intimidation by group of dissidents calling themselve Oglaith na Eireann – also involved in tiger robberies, initimidation and general crime for personal gain. Also, Pete, you seem to have missed the very real FACT that this same group of people are involved in punishment beatings against those whom they have a person grudge with.

    Still you got the name of the road in west Belfast correct. Funny, I can’t see the post about similar incident on the Shankill.

  • IRIA

    I would think Sinn Fein “controls the nationalist areas” by way of the popular vote.

    Doing RSF’s bidding now?

  • Why are people thinking this is an anti-PSF thread? It seems to me fairly clear that Pete is citing reports linking the dissidents to the attempts to assert control nationalist areas through the use of violence, and, I would think, linking this to RSF’s demands that the Provos drop the name, which would leave them in sole control of it. But that’s just how it seems to me.

  • This is a shameful act, it implies that this is a community that is beginning to turn on itself. If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc, as the State targets low level criminals as informers. However today no republican group is involved in a serious insurgency; and to pretend otherwise by carrying out acts like this is as I said above shameful.

    CIRA’s recent attempt to ape J W Bush’s infantile ‘war on drugs’ was pathetic and makes one wonder about their grip with reality. Far from working, the prohibition of illicit drugs is one of the most destructive government policies ever implemented by a western State, it is on a par with the equally ridiculous ‘War on Terror.’

    Not least because it means targeting ourselves, for it is our children, our friends, our neighbors, etc, who take illicit drugs, if Prohibition worked, British, Irish and US prisons would not be full of people who are incarcerated for drug related crimes.

    Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic, but they are a societal problem and must be dealt with as such. It is for the whole community and their elected representatives to deal with this problem, it cannot be left to a bunch of individuals who believe they have almost a god given right to intervene due to a historical event that took place in 1918.

    If ever there is a case to reread the Pastor Niemoller poem, this is it.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Pete,

    excuse my ignorance in these maters – but who is the “ED” as in “[How about Provisional Sinn Féin? – Ed] ”

    Is Mick editing bits or are you adding extra bits in and then signing it as ed rather than yourself?

  • West Belfast

    I just wish RSF would stand for election – oh I forgot they did at the last assembly elections and were disgraced in WB.

    Why dont they just pack up and go away?

  • Neil

    This is designed to be a support winning popular action. The truth of the matter is that burglary, something I might add that many people experience at some point in their lifetime, is a traumatic and invasive experience. It’s not on a par with other crimes, like dealing drugs or vandalism. The majority of people I know seem to think, accurately or otherwise, that anti-social and criminal behaviour is on the increase in the west, with a marked increase in home invasions.

    The PSNI, regardless of political views, are fairly useless at clearing up crime – this may be down to a number of factors (cooperation, competence, the justice system generally speaking). So when the CIRA do something like this it is in my opinion designed to garner support in the community, and in my opinion to a certain degree it will work. Many people I know long for the days when the IRA controlled policing and crime was perceived to be lower than it is now.

  • halfer

    Why has everyone jumped to the conclusion that this was the work of the CIRA. WB’s reliable grapevine seems to relate it to the ONH faction.

    Anyhow, is it an attempt to control West Belfast? I find that a bit absurd based on the primae facae. A young fella up to no good gets to be held accountable for his actions in an embarassing spectacle in front of is neighbourhood peers. Will it out him off future antisocial actions? Possibly.

    Is this type of justice the panacea for antisocial behaviour in deprived areas? No

    Is this an attempt to take control? wise up.

    Incidentally…is Grassy Noel going to provide evidence for his facts? Who or what is his source of infomation?

  • Dec

    Is Mick editing bits or are you adding extra bits in and then signing it as ed rather than yourself?

    Obviously I can’t answer your question Sammy, though I’m fairly sure this jocular form of editorial intervention originated in the ‘Letters Page’ of the Beano back in the mid-70s. Indeed.

  • cynic

    “If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc”

    ……. so you think it’s OK to shoot 15 year old car thieves because you think the police might recruit them as sources

    Aside from the morality and logic in that, what the hell use do you think a 15 year old glue head would be likely to be to the police?

    I agree with most of the rest of your post but that bit leaves me cold. Did you really mean that?

    Didn’t PIRA / PSF always claim that they shot them as a service to the community because of their anti-social activity? So of course that justified it?

  • cynic

    Parading them like this seems superficially attractive but what if little Liam or Sean standing with his placard didn’t actually do it but was just out of favour with those with the guns or fingered by someone with more to hide?

    A Catholic friend once told me that he had had a problem and went to see his local Councillor. He lived in an area that wasn’t too bad for crime but his children’s lives were being plagued by some youths who included a son of a local PIRA member. This lad was completely out of control and in my friend’s naievity he thought that the local ‘restorative justice’ people might help.

    ‘Sorry’ he was told. ‘Get real. That’s not the way the system works. Best we forget we ever had this conversation.’ So that’s just what he did.

    Either we have a system based on justice fairness and the rule of law or we just give in to the thugs – from whatever side.

  • Neil

    Either we have a system based on justice fairness and the rule of law

    I agree, as do 90%of my neighbours. Unfortunately the 1 in 5 clearup rates of the PSNI do not inspire confidence that they’re about to kick crime from the streets of West Belfast.

    The reason this kind of action will generate some support is that there are plenty of people who hear of another pensioner in the news, or another family terrorised who end up thinking ‘these bastards need shot’.

    If we could get to the point where the police were empowered/prepared to take on crime in West Belfast then things might change, but we are by no means anywhere near that situation at present. It’s a criminal nirvana at the minute because you can do what you like, and at best stand a 20% chance of being taken to court, where you stand an even smaller chance of being punished in any meanigful way.

  • Grassy Noel

    Halfer,

    Facts all of them:

    CIRA involved in buring a digger at Casement park because contractor wouldn’t pay protection money.

    CIRA levying drug’s tax on dealers in west Belfast (that one via the old “reliable grapevine” and senior republicans)

    ONH, or people representing them, went into the home of an aging former prisoner and demanded money that they claimed his son (whom they alleged was a drug dealer) had hidden in a chair. Reported in newspaper.

    ONH/CIRA/INLA all involved in assisting loyalists in drug trafficking and selling them arms.

    Source: The Irish News

    Like I said, a criminal conspiracy.

    what was that Johnson said about patriotism?

  • cynic

    Please read my post, what I wrote was,
    “If there is an insurgency taking place there is an argument to be made for punishments shootings etc, as the State targets low level criminals as informers.”

    No where did I write that I supported punishment attacks in the past and I made it clear I am against them today.

    Sadly in the past the police ‘have’ made use of young criminals as informers, either by blackmailing, bribing or threatening them; and I see no reason why this would not happen today, as this is still a common tactic of police forces all over the world.

    They use these people to spy and inform on their own and to act as their eyes and ears within communities and places the police have difficulty in going into. So yes, a 15 year old glue sniffing thief can as an informer be a valuable asset to an unscrupulous police officer.

    I’m told there is no lower age limit on police registering informers, which if true is very worrying.

    regards

  • halfer

    “CIRA involved in buring a digger at Casement park because contractor wouldn’t pay protection money.

    CIRA levying drug’s tax on dealers in west Belfast (that one via the old “reliable grapevine” and senior republicans)

    ONH, or people representing them, went into the home of an aging former prisoner and demanded money that they claimed his son (whom they alleged was a drug dealer) had hidden in a chair. Reported in newspaper.

    ONH/CIRA/INLA all involved in assisting loyalists in drug trafficking and selling them arms.

    Source: The Irish News

    Like I said, a criminal conspiracy.”

    Sheesh the plot thickens……..Thank god gossip isn’t admissable as evidence.

    So whats the point of all this hearsay and speculation Noel? Does it add anything to this disussion? Is it about separating “Good republicans” and “bad republicans”?

    Or wait a minute…….are you profiling yourself for a job at the Sunday World?

    I dont have any hard evidence for me to believe anything that you say about any of the above groups. You seem convinced, so maybe you have some hard/fast proof. If thats the case why don’t you act like a “good republican” and hand it over to the PSNI. Or are you afraid of being laughed out of woodbourne?

    Now, back to the discussion. The PSNI are rejected by many in areas suc as WB because, like or not, people still distrust and hate them for a multitude of reasons. One of those reasons being their dire record at actually doing what police services usually do; tackling crime. (16% success rate)

    When communities feel the impotence that this justice vacuum presents, they look through the historical lens that Mick alluded to and paramilitary groups then carry the burden of taking such actions. Its a no win situation really. Paramilitary groups have no real chance in winning wars against drugs or anti social behaviour but they can help give an emotional balance to victims in the communities by making an example of young burglars in the way they did at the weekend.

  • veritas

    as someone who has been affected personally by crime(broke into twice)and one who has seen the inadequacies of the PSNI and SF`s response….I for one passed this person holding the placard and said well done to whoever made this alleged thug face the consequences of his actions….

    This won`t sit with those in this forum with no personal knowledge of West Belfast but another thing that will get mighty on this irrelevant forum mad….

    is, I haven`t met one person on the street who didn`t see this as a welcome development…

    The community has had enough of these thugs, enough of SF`s platitudes, enough of the PSNI letting these £10 touts run amok and had enough of the stoopies lecturing…

  • veritas

    “Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic”

    How would you know? I have suffered this and know the consequences, the fear, the despair…the inability to understand how these thugs get away with this…

    Bleeding heart liberal wishy washy theorizing without any firsthand experience, is utterly pointless and irrelevant..

    You would probably try and understand these thugs, comfort, pamper them, send them on foreign holidays to sort out their issues….

  • NCM

    “We believe the time has come for these people to drop the name Sinn Fein and no longer claim to be the republican movement.”

    If this happened, wouldn’t it be fitting if 10 years from now Gerry Adams denied ever having been a member of Sinn Fein?

  • Earnan

    Good for them…the kid avoids a record, the state avoids paying costs to charge/process/jail him, he feels shamed to possibly stop his way

  • “Low level crime like dealing and burglary are often troublesome and traumatic”

    How would you know? I have suffered this and know the consequences, the fear, the despair…the inability to understand how these thugs get away with this…

    veritas

    Please, do you feel that you are the only person who has been a victim of a crime? Show a bit of respect.

    One does not have to be what you call a bleeding heart liberal to understand the dangers of street corner ‘justice’.

    There are bigger issues at work here, for one does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand only the stupidest low level criminals, with absolutely no pull, ends up standing on a street corner with a placard around their neck, with what amounts to the words ‘kick me I am an idiot’ written on it.

    Will the son of an ONH man end up on the street corner, or one of those bankers we have all come to love? No, I think not.

    Rough justice is never good justice and can only be excused in extraordinary times and only then with great thought. Happily we are not living through such times.

    If the ONH has the power to make this poor sap stand on the street corner, what is to stop them telling him to go to the nearest PSNI station and confess all?

    No, what is occurring here is propaganda by deed, and as I said it is shameless as it plays to our most base instinct, revenge, The ONH need to think again.

  • young newt

    From a United Ireland to a Traffic Island-the ever-diminishing returns of the Republican Movement.

  • cut the bull

    People in working class communities will and do support actions like this as they see it as hoods who are terrorisng those ncommunities being shamed. The PSNI response to crimes particularly drug related crimeinality is almost non existant.

    People in these communities do not trust the PSNI and are seeing day and daily a complete lack of effective policing. Therefore if SF continue to urge people to support and join this organisation, then SF and its politics will become as ineffective as the PSNI record on solving crime.

    Wtih out getting lost in conpiracy theories it seems a good way to make SF lose political support. Let comunities go to wreck and ruin and sit back and watch SF run around in circles urging thoise affected by crime to support and join those who allowing it to happen.

    A securocrats plan if there ever was one

  • The Raven

    “You would probably try and understand these thugs, comfort, pamper them, send them on foreign holidays to sort out their issues….”

    So do we get into the whole nature/nurture thing on this? Perhaps it’s time some of the elected representatives for West Belfast sorted themselves out to see what the problems actually are when it comes to crime and the causes thereof…

    Whatever political muscle these people exert, it’s clearly not working. I DID live on the Falls for a few days each week for a couple of years. It’s not the same as being a “full-timer”, but you don’t have to be stupid to see that many of the problems in the area go back to the underlying tone in the Andytown News/Gerry slugfest we had a wee while back.

    Mick wrote: “No, what is occurring here is propaganda by deed, and as I said it is shameless as it plays to our most base instinct, revenge”.

    Sure, it’s not Kristallnacht – but it’s not long til it starts to go down that path.

  • dunreavynomore

    The idea that ‘dissidents’ are involved in various criminal enterprises while s.f and their ‘ira’ are not is patently ludicrous. s.f’s ‘ira’ wrote the book on such enterprise, are still up to their necks in it. o.k, i can’t speak about belfast but i know enough about sth armagh to know that the terms ‘criminality’ and ‘mainstream republican’ are not too far divorced. want a load of bad drink? see an ira man, some washed diesel, same thing, hijacked goods, aye, and on it goes. come on down and see the electric gates capital of ireland (while s.f cry about the most deprived wards in the country)
    these people are gerry a’s ‘good republicans’.
    and, of course, if you want someone battered to death apply to the same people.

  • dunreavynomore

    The idea that ‘dissidents’ are involved in various criminal enterprises while s.f and their ‘ira’ are not is patently ludicrous. s.f’s ‘ira’ wrote the book on such enterprise, are still up to their necks in it. o.k, i can’t speak about belfast but i know enough about sth armagh to know that the terms ‘criminality’ and ‘mainstream republican’ are not too far divorced. want a load of bad drink? see an ira man, some washed diesel, same thing, hijacked goods, aye, and on it goes. come on down and see the electric gates capital of ireland (while s.f cry about the most deprived wards in the country)
    these people are gerry a’s ‘good republicans’.
    and, of course, if you want someone battered to death apply to the same people.

  • dunreavynomore

    sorry about the double post.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    dunreavynomore

    The foreign politicans that were stupid enough to try and divide a country like Ireland should have realised that you are always going to have smuggling as a result of their stupidity – best to think of it as a reminder of the folly of partition.

  • LURIG

    I have to laugh at SF pointing the finger at others. Who do people think funded many of the private building projects in and around North & West Belfast? Who are many of the landlords for these properties? Step forward well known Provisional Republicans. I also know people who have contacted Sinn Fein about anti-social behaviour and criminality in their areas. When the claims were investigated it was found that some of these hoods and thugs involved were related to Provisional Republicans or friends of friends of them. They are the biggest hypocrites going. As a Nationalist I have so fear in saying West and North Belfast are 2 big anti-social shitholes controlled and run by criminal elements both within The Provisional movement AND so called dissidents run by Special Branch and M15. There is no great desire within local Government, Sinn Fein or the PSNI to improve the living conditions for decent people there because it would involve tramping on too many toes and disrupting vested interests. Sinn Fein must think we are all fools when they say Republicans are NOT involved in criminality. They creamed millions from the building trade over decades with tax and National Insurance scams and this money has been offloaded to so called ‘legitimate businesses’. What we have today in these areas today in the fruit of the Republican Movement’s criminal loins, dissident or otherwise.

  • Craoibh Rua

    In an article entitled ‘The state of West Belfast dissidents’ written by an anonymous reporter, you stated the following “the IRSP and 32 County Sovereignty Movement, have also joined together under the Republican Network for Unity (RNU) banner.”
    For the record here are the FACTS. Neither the IRSP, nor 32 County Sovereignty Movement, nor any other Republican/Socialist party, nor grouping comes under the Republican Network for Unity (RNU) banner.
    The RNU are a distinct Republican/Socialist political entity. Emerging from the ‘Concerned Republicans & Ex-POWs against the RUC/PSNI”. Our founding Ard Fheis was held in Derry City on Sunday February 1st 2009. From which an Ard Chomhairle was elected, tasked to develop policies and strategy for the Year ahead.
    It is correct that the RNU are affiliated to the Republican Forum for Unity. As are the IRSP, 32CSM and a broad spectrum of non-aligned Republicans and ex-prisoners.
    We attend and fully participate in public, not clandestine, meetings and rallies throughout the Country hosted by the Republican Forum for Unity. The Republican Forum for Unity is an open Forum and on-going invitations to participate and contribute in any matters relevant to Republicanism in the 21st Century have been extended to the SDLP, éirígí and both provisional and republican Sinn Fein. To date none have seen fit to attend and give us their analysis and/or insight. This splendid isolationism is fully a matter for themselves.
    We appreciate this opportunity to clarify this unsubstantiated matter and in order to prevent your newspaper from facing the dilemma posed when you used the nuance of anonymity to critique the MP for West Belfast, we would humbly suggest that, as a matter of journalistic integrity, you corroborate your sources before accepting as fact (from an anonymous source who can no longer justify the need for anonymity on the grounds of security) by contacting the political group(s) you intend to critique before you repeat your previous mistakes. A simple phone call would have informed you that the Republican Network for Unity was a stand alone entity and not a “banner” for any group.
    Furthermore, it would be a sad reflection on investigative Journalism if the ATN was to continue in this vein and become a localised version of the “Sunday World” basing the merits of future articles on anonymous contributions. If your Newspaper is interested in objectivity and balance then allow The Republican Network for Unity the ‘right of reply’ on a proportional basis to the piece of tabloid reporting which you carried in edition dated Saturday 07.02.09. We can assure you that no anonymous sources will be used.
    As Yet the ATN have not carried the correction nor the Editor responded.

  • veritas

    Mick Hall…

    Stop trying to be smug, my point was addressed to you and again I`ll ask you.

    Have YOU ever suffered at the hands of these £10 thugs and what do YOU know about the ordinary person in West Belfast?

    I, along with countless others in West Belfast,have saw first hand how useless the Police are….

    Whether you like it or not, this community when it sees action taken against thugs, takes joy on seeing thugs pay the price for their terror..

    So continue on with you liberal diatribe…

  • NCM

    Veritas, how is an unelected group without popular mandate taking the law into its own hands without due process and without limits as to type of punishment not just a form of private fascism and thuggery? If gangs of Loyalists wanted to “help” West Belfast by doing these sort of things so as to keep the criminal elements there in line, would you support this as well? Why not?

    What if one of your family members is accused by someone with a personal grudge against him of being a burglar or drug dealer? Would you want the “liberal” due process of a public trial for your relative or would a kneecapping by a shadowy group of self-appointed avengers be just as fair, even though the evidence of wrongdoing by your relative wouldn’t withstand scrutiny and even though the consequences of incorrectly targeting your relative would be life-long, severe, and irreparable?

    Would, in your vision of a just world, a united Ireland also dispense with needless niceties like trials for accused criminals and just mete out punishments based on accusations, hearsay, and no opportunity to offer a defense by the accused?

  • picador

    Who or what is ONH? Is it a distinct grouping from ‘Real’ IRA and CIRA? What is its target date for the liberation of dear old Éireann?

  • Grassy Noel

    Who or what is ONH? Is it a distinct grouping from ‘Real’ IRA and CIRA? What is its target date for the liberation of dear old Éireann?

    A group of assorted criminals, former republicans, and general ne’er-do-wells engaged in a power grab while lning their own pockets at the same time.

    They may have some relation to the groups you mentioned, but it is all very murky – and let’s be honest, in pursuit of the Queen’s shilling – by mostly illegal means – they haven’t been averse to taking it straight from the hands of the Brits in return for information.

  • Grassy Noel

    Craoibh Rua,

    is Slugger getting a scoop? A letter published here before hitting your intended publication?

    You spent all those words and exhausted all that pomposity in saying basically: we are not an umbrella group, we’re a political party. But we do belong to the umbrella group you mentioned, so you were almost right. Check your facts in future.

    Note there’s no word on how some of the, shall we say, military fellow travellers mentioned in the ATN are engaged in campaign of liberation freeing nationalist residents of their peace of mind, security, money, health and well being?

  • cut the bull

    securocrats are having a laugh

  • Dave

    “A group of assorted criminals, former republicans, and general ne’er-do-wells engaged in a power grab while lning their own pockets at the same time.” – Grassy Noel

    Yes, that’s Sinn Fein, but what is the ONH?

  • circles

    I love letters written in the “royal “we”” form – when issued by somebody writing as a republican they have me rolling on the floor laughing. Pompous is a good word for it Noel.

    I also liked that bit “The Republican Forum for Unity is an open Forum and on-going invitations to participate and contribute in any matters relevant to Republicanism in the 21st Century have been extended to the SDLP, éirígí and both provisional and republican Sinn Fein. To date none have seen fit to attend and give us their analysis and/or insight. This splendid isolationism is fully a matter for themselves.” Priceless!!!! So basically – nobody is talking to us even though they’re talking to each other but they are the isolationists! Pompous AND delusional!

  • dunreavynomore

    it was sammy…

    you’re right about the smuggling but i was not talking about smuggling. a smuggler brings, for instance, petrol across the border having bought it wholesale . he avoids all taxes and sells it on in the 6 cos. he makes big profit, the retailer makes good profit and in border areas the customer gets a couple of pence off per litre. washed diesel is another job altogether where the consumer is not told what he or she is getting and can destroy their engine in the process,these gangsters even dilute good petrol to increase their profits. same with bad drink as opposed to smuggled normal drink, and spurious cigarettes compared to ‘normal’ cigarettes. this is gangsterism pure and simple and it is organised and controlled mainly by well known ‘republicans’ who are friends of our friend, that paragon of virtue who never was in the ira,beardy gerry.
    along with everything else the bad drink being peddled by these heroes has a lot to answer for in terms of fights and general anti social behaviour. if it was ‘dissidents’ or ordinary criminals who were involved we would hear a lot more from our m.p (murphy) about it.

  • Grassy Noel

    Circles,

    the whole thing has a People’s Front of Judea ring to it!

  • The whole thing has a People’s Front of Judea ring to it!

    Posted by Grassy Noel on Feb 11, 2009 @ 11:02 AM

    Grasy Noel,
    Surly you mean the Peoples Front of Judea [general command] as it is well known the PFJ are the running dogs of the Roman Empire.

  • veritas

    My family aren`t and never have been involved in thuggery, again another play on words from the bleeding hearts brigade…anyone can play “what if” games….

    The more criminals and £10 thugs who have to face the wrath of the community the better…

    This is what the community in West Belfast is calling for as the failing and ineptitude of both SF and the PSNI are there for all to see..

    All Thugs must face justice…and since the police don`t want to do it, is there any surprise ordinary decent hard working law abiding people have had enough…

  • Neil

    I can understand the logic veritas being from the west myself, and when I told the missus about the incident in a/town last night her reply was ‘Happy days!’ We’ve had our fair share of anti-social trouble over the years.

    But I think that the majority of people from the west understand that approving of these kind of things happening to some kid, is only a stones throw away from these things happening to your kid. And we all know there are certain people around who have used their power and influence to grind down ordinary decent hard working law abiding people, we all have a chuck living on the street that we don’t want to fall out with.

    I always find myself thinking that really with some younger people the fault lies almost exclusively with the parents. It’s not a pleasant thought for me to imagine a misguided 17 year old, terrified with a placard round his neck, taking baying abuse from passers by, when that child has been barely looked after by his own parents, who in my opinion deserve the punishment more.

  • Earnan

    West Belfast sounds like a real sh*thole

  • Neil

    You make your point well, when I was very young I was taught to never trust people who are over keen to punish others, whether they be individuals, organizations, the state or the police, as they often do so to cover up their own shortcomings.

    If such brutality worked we might have to look at it, but it does not, young kids have had their knees shot away and worse, yet still anti social behavior plagues some areas.

    The real problem here is the failure of the politicians, if SF had confronted those who support selective education head on, instead of trying to reach a compromise with people who had no intention of compromising. We might at least have begun to see the end of the sink schools that turn out some working class youngster barely literate.

    Instead both SF and the ONH have looked for scapegoats, the former to report them to the police and the latter to terrorize them. Neither will solve this problem in the long run, those who claim it will are being dishonest.

  • NCM

    Veritas, if you think I’m a bleeding heart, you’re wrong. But I do believe in basic civil liberties, which are one of those things that are all too easy not to care about until the “powers that be” target someone close to you, sometimes unjustly and corruptly. Simply living a virtuous life will not keep someone safe from the abuse of power when the process for accusing people of wrongdoing is shadowy, not transparent, and subject to private abuse.

    If dissident Republicans enforcing order through the gun on the streets of West Belfast is fine by you, what exactly is wrong with anything the US has done in the past 8 years? Gitmo, Iraq, the Bush administration assault on basic civil liberties… who cares, since we’ve kept ourselves safe from Islamic terrorists, right? If these dissident Republican groups take power, they might want to change the murals along the Falls Road complaining of US or Israeli imperialism to murals praising the US for its efficient way of dealing with its enemies.

    *********

    Earnan: “West Belfast sounds like a real sh*thole”

    No, you should see some parts of Chicago.

  • halfer

    Gonna have to repeat myself Grassy Noel…..if you have any hard proof of all your spewings, then go inform your local constabulary of the PSNI like the good woolly Republican you are.

    The placarding of anti social elements is a side issue here. The major issue is that Adams is briefing journalists that all these groupings are criminal conspiracies to pave the way for Hugh Orde and his special branch to carry out more police attacks, and Terry McCafferty type arrests against Republicans form outside of the GFA fold.

    This criminalisation through friendly media outlets and side of mouth smears by unnamed “senior republican” sources (thats you too grassy noel) is as heinous as it is obvious in its intentions.

    The real threat to PSF is not from these small groups of republicans but rather the unravelling of their logic, strategy and control of traditional republican areas.

  • Grassy Noel

    Hey Halfer,

    your psychic powers are fading fast, I’m not a republican – never have been, and probably never will be – so you can leave that line of attack to the one side.

    I’m not relying on the word of Adams, or anyone else, but my own friends and family and contacts in west Belfast – so you take that and eat it.

    This criminalisation through friendly media outlets and side of mouth smears by unnamed “senior republican” sources (thats you too grassy noel) is as heinous as it is obvious in its intentions.

    Funny, but I’d say the criminalisation of these peope comes not from others’ words, but by their own deed and they stand condemned by them.

    Your attempt at obfuscation on this issue is understandable given that – like many adherents to an ideology that loses its way – you seek somewhere for your ideas and sense of betrayal to find solace.

    That you’ve attempted here – in a rather disngenuous way – to absolve or offer a defence for violent criminals the type of which have such consideration for peoople in nationalist areas that they were prepared to abandon pipe bombs in a built-up area while chidren went to school – shows what a long way down that path can take you, and how far from your stated aim.

    But maybe it is only those who only you deem as ‘republican’ are those worthy of care or belief, or are worth listening to.

    One thing is apt: your PR skills for said rump are about right, and to that they are entitled.

    I just wish they’d go away – and so does everyone else.

  • NCM

    Halfer: “The major issue is that Adams is briefing journalists that all these groupings are criminal conspiracies to pave the way for Hugh Orde and his special branch to carry out more police attacks, and Terry McCafferty type arrests against Republicans form outside of the GFA fold.”

    But aren’t dissident Republican groups playing right into this dynamic, knowing exactly that Adams will turn on them to maintain the status quo? When that happens, where will the popular support be?

  • veritas

    as a victim of crime, as a victim of these thugs as someone who has 3 neighbors who are victims of these thugs, I believe I`m in a better position than the internet warriors and bleeding hearts on this forum to comment…

    Yes its about civil liberties but were are mine and my neighbors when we see these thugs get a free hand, when we see first hand the complete apathy of the police…

    In these areas the thugs are well known and maybe its because of their status as police informers that a blind eye is turned…

    I don`t support dissent republicans but when these thugs are made to pay the price of their terror, then I won`t apologize for saying well done, an attitude which is gathering place in Nationalist areas…

    Now its easy for those with no experience of crime, no knowledge of parts of West Belfast to sit in their comfy house well clear of the trouble and moralize…

    Victims don`t have the time to moralize..

    C

  • NCM

    Veritas, fair enough, and I can guarantee that if our places were reversed I would be thrilled to see local thugs put in their place by any means necessary and would have no patience for outsiders across the ocean lecturing me about it. But it is a dangerous practice to enforce order without law, and the end result can be worse than the street crime it was designed to reign in. If the vigilantes can restrain themselves and be fair and accurate in their meting out of justice, then so be it. But I doubt they will and in the end innocents will be made to suffer and justice itself will be harmed.

    This seems like an intractable problem, given the reluctance of the official police force to care about nationalist areas and the reluctance of nationalist areas to view the police force as legitimate and provide information about criminals to them. SF doubtlessly sees the threat to their power and will do whatever it takes, I predict, to quash the growth of any rival claimants to power, and who knows — this whole thing might come to a head at some point.

    But seriously, though, on a personal level, best of luck and I’m glad to hear that these tactics, which I believe are dangerous and counter to the way things are supposed to work in a civilized society, have at least brought a bit of piece of mind.

  • NCM

    On the plus side, anything you guys decide to do in West Belfast with your criminals is a whole lot fairer than this fine example of due process in Pennsylvania, USA.

    http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/4518008/

    Pa. judges accused of jailing kids for cash

    For years, the juvenile court system in Wilkes-Barre operated like a conveyor belt: Youngsters were brought before judges without a lawyer, given hearings that lasted only a minute or two, and then sent off to juvenile prison for months for minor offenses.

    The explanation, prosecutors say, was corruption on the bench.

    In one of the most shocking cases of courtroom graft on record, two Pennsylvania judges have been charged with taking millions of dollars in kickbacks to send teenagers to two privately run youth detention centers.

    “I’ve never encountered, and I don’t think that we will in our lifetimes, a case where literally thousands of kids’ lives were just tossed aside in order for a couple of judges to make some money,” said Marsha Levick, an attorney with the Philadelphia-based Juvenile Law Center, which is representing hundreds of youths sentenced in Wilkes-Barre.

  • William

    It was interesting listening to a Sinn Feiner giving his views on the alleged Dissident IRA killing of Jim McCallion in Londonderry’s Prehen area in the early hours of Wednesday morning. It was wrong etc etc….however, it set me wondering what the difference was, when a few years ago his mates in Sinn Fein / IRA murdered another notorious drug-dealer, Christopher ‘Crikey’ O’Kane, a few miles from Prehen, at Curryneiran just outside the city near Ardmore? That murder was claimed by the SF / IRA badge of convenience organisation, Direct Action against Drugs [DAAD]. As usual with the Chukkies, when we did it, it was good, now you folk who were once part of us do it, it is bad. Another reason why Sinn Fein / IRA are unfit to be in a democratic Government.

  • picador

    the Chukkies

    Do you play for a polo team, William?

  • Earnan

    NCM

    “Earnan: “West Belfast sounds like a real sh*thole”

    No, you should see some parts of Chicago.”

    I work a few blocks from the White House, which means I only work a few miles from parts of DC that have worse murder rates than any part of Chicago. The only time I have been through there is driving my grandpa to the Veterans Hospital

    So, NCM, how many civil rights did the average American lose under King George II?

    Non citizen, enemy combatants dont count

  • NCM

    Earnan: “So, NCM, how many civil rights did the average American lose under King George II?”

    Let’s see. Warrantless wiretapping, arbitrary no-fly lists, routine “no knock” local militarized police raids on private residences, routine surveillance of international phone calls, confiscation of laptops and papers at borders without any probable cause or reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing… but why worry about such things, right? Oh, and citizens better hope that they are never branded “enemy combatants” and subjected to kangaroo courts and evidence obtained by torture.

    But I promise, if history teaches anything it is this: I’m sure we can trust our government not to abuse its new-found powers. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

  • Chief Joseph

    The “average American” had to wait until King George had decamped before losing their civil rights, along with their culture, land and lives.

    It was the people of the USA who destroyed the American way of life replacing the native peoples with a planter-society led by a succession of planter-presidents extending to the present day and all built on the land and bones of the true Americans.