TUV, DUP spar over ‘sectarian’ anti-ecumenism

A verbal sparring match has been sparked in Antrim following the refusal of TUV councillor, Mel Lucas, to attend a Remembrance Day service in the town due to the involvement of a catholic priest in the service. There are two notable aspects to the story. Firstly, it would appear, in nationalist eyes, that the TUV leader’s expressed distinction between catholics and republicans articulated at its recent Party conference isn’t too widely shared within party ranks. Secondly, the fact that the former DUP councillor’s actions have been condemned as ‘bigoted’ by the DUP is both a sign of changed times and, possibly, a bit of a dilemma for the party as the association of anti-ecumenism with sectarianism hasn’t always been so freely promoted by the party, not least at leadership level- and Rev. Kennaway thought the seeds travelled slowly from London to Ballymena

  • Mack

    When will the TUV show their respect for the Men and Women who lost their lives defending us in the world wars. The fact that Mel refused to go anywhere near a remembrance service just because a priest read a few verses proves that regardless of christianity he wants to attack the DUP. I recently spoke to a soldier that marched through the streets of Belfast and was disgusted to hear that Jim Alister was absent proved yet again that they are a party that has nothing to offer other than attack the DUP.

  • riverlagan

    Turgon

    On this site, you have mentioned that you believe their are people within the TUV who have integrity and principle. I took this remark to mean, that it was of your belief, that their are people within the party who are not driven by bigotry.

    In your writings you give the impression that you are somehow aloof when it comes to members of Mr. Lucas’ ilk: when in fact you are in the gutter with them.

  • Big Maggie

    riverlagan

    Strong words there. I hope you can back them up with evidence.

  • PaddyReilly

    There are people who are a very great deal more intelligent than either you or I who believe in God and there are people a great deal more intelligent than you or I who do not believe in God.

    And there are people more intelligent than Greenflag who do not believe in repartition, either.

  • Turgon

    riverlagan
    “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” Oscar Wilde

  • cynic

    “When will the TUV show their respect for the Men and Women who lost their lives defending us in the world wars.”

    …but presumably they believe that all the non-protestant ones went straight to hell so it may be a bit difficult theologically for them.

    Oh dear…what sad, sad people.

  • Big Maggie

    cynic

    Yes. Unfortunately other sad, sad people vote them into positions of influence. Which means it’s sad, sad for the saner among us.

  • autocue

    HBF

    Representatives of the Orange Instituion were present at the Cenotaph in Belfast as where representatives of all the major denominations and indeed the Jewish community and Muslim community also.

  • kathryn

    Could someone clarify – which church does he belong to! I understood he was Presbyterian, this church holds joint services all the time so what is the problem! Me thinks he has an agenda – silly of course he does he wants to be the next MP! What a joke! Surely the people in South Antrim would not be so stupid – he has pulled the wool over our eyes enough, we will not fall for his nonsense again.

  • Carson’s Cat

    The most interesting point made here was the fact that this is unlikely to be the first time that a priest was involved in this ceremony.

    What did Lucas do in previous years? That needs to be answered and if he’s doing something different now to what he did when a member of the DUP then he stands very guilty of hypocrisy.

    From what I know of my local remembrance event organised by the RBL there is an RC Priest who reads a portion of scripture. That was in the presence of the Distrct Master of the Local District Lodge amongst others. The format has been the same for quite some years now, and I suspect its been like that in Antrim too.

    Lucas needs to be asked why he’s had this sudden change of heart. Did he only join the Orange Institution recently, or has he only decided to become ‘uberprod’ recently?

    The insult to those from both traditions who fought and died alongside eachother in two world wars is very obvious.

  • Greenflag

    Padraig ,

    ‘There are people who are a very great deal more intelligent than either you or I who believe in God and there are people a great deal more intelligent than you or I who do not believe in God.’

    So ? Here’s some news padraig . Just because people are deemed ‘intelligent ‘ either by themselves or others doe not mean they don’t , won’t or can’t lie , steal , abuse power , commit crimes etc etc . Have you been reading up on the Wall St ‘intelligentsia ‘ over recent weeks ? I’m sure many of the medieval popes , reformation leaders , and shamans going back to neanderthal times were deemed ‘intelligent ‘ by their peers . Did’nt stop them form ‘believing’ in an invisible being , creator etc etc .

    ”When we I recall this it makes me a great deal more humble ‘

    Humility is a virtue but not in the face of unadulterated bigotry and stupidity masquerading as ‘religious ‘ principle

    Try this out yourself and see?

    Try what ? You have your ‘style’ -I have mine – Yours works for you -mine works for me 😉 Slugger can be a rough place at times and is not a place for those of too sensitive a disposition .

  • Greenflag

    paddyreilly,

    ‘And there are people more intelligent than Greenflag who do not believe in repartition, either.’

    Indeed paddy and these people exhibited their ‘intelligence’ by believing that Sunningdale power sharing would work ? that the several Trimble /Mallon power sharing failures were just ‘teething pains? and the present 5 month non meeting Executive is functioning perfectly as planned ? These may also be the same people who believed that the 4,000 deaths , tens of thousands physically and psychologically traumatised for life, and the billions of pounds of pounds of property damage were all a worthwhile ‘investment ‘ so that a powerless Assembly could be set up and not meet for half the time since it was established ?

    Would these be the same ‘intelligent’ people who believe that a UI is just around the corner and all that needs to happen is for the nationalists and republicans to outbreed the prods or die in fewer numbers so that one fine day a referendum on a UI will be created by 500,000 NI people voting for it and 499,999 voting against ?

    Would these be the same ‘intelligent’ people who believe you can have an SF Deputy First Minister but not an SF Minister for Peace & Justice or a DUP First Minister but not a DUP Peace & Justice Minister ?

    Don’t know about you paddy but perhaps this so called ‘intelligence ‘ quality is overrated more than a little eh 😉 Think about it for a moment how else could the NI headless political chickens run around for 40 years in ever diminishing circles looking for a fix for a political entity that just does’nt work, can’t work and won’t work in it’s present format !

    And I did’nt even mention the dreaded R word 😉

  • autocue

    Has Jim Allister backed the stance taken by Mel Lucas?

  • Reader

    Greenflag: Indeed paddy and these people exhibited their ‘intelligence’ by believing that Sunningdale power sharing would work ?
    Sunningdale power sharing did work for several months. It was the Council of Ireland add-on that broke it. But what intelligent person ever believed that the Council of Ireland would work?
    But surely the original point is that intelligent people can believe different things from other intelligent people? And they can all still be wrong. Even honest people can work from different ethical underpinnings and different data (e.g. data from within their own community)

  • Greenflag

    reader ,

    ‘Sunningdale power sharing did work for several months’

    If several months ‘endurance ‘ is to be the gold standard or norm for NI devolved Government after 40 years of ‘efforts ‘ then I suppose we can look forward to a full Assembly term of 4 years in approx 480 years ? (pro rated as per Sunningdale performance ). How many Unionists today would love to go back and share power under Sunningdale terms, than endure the present compulsory power sharing with SF ?

    ‘Surely the original point is that intelligent people can believe different things from other intelligent people? Even honest people can work from different ethical underpinnings ‘

    I never said they could’nt. The point I’m making was why did it take 40 years ? and even now they’re still farting around in the dark ?

    You can call it honest disagreement between intelligent people if that’s your view .

    I call it something else.

    Horseshit !

  • Greenflag

    ‘What did Lucas do in previous years? That needs to be answered and if he’s doing something different now to what he did when a member of the DUP then he stands very guilty of hypocrisy.’

    So ? One more ‘hypocrite’ added to the already voluminous pile of political hypocrites won’t make a blind bit of difference anyway .

    Perhaps he’s the genuine article and was just recently struck by ‘enlightenment ‘ from the ‘heavens ‘ . Now that he has seen the ‘political ‘ light and the road ahead under the newer than new, more proddie than the DUP, more loyal than Queenie’s Corgis, that newest Unionist ‘elixir of rectitude ‘ the TUV 🙁 there’ll be no stopping him unless the TUV boot him out of the party . Fat chance of course .

  • Big Maggie

    Greenflag

    I wonder if he’s aware of Slugger. This thread has to be the finest third-party publicity Mel has ever had. Okay, most of it isn’t exactly flattery but…

  • BB

    There is no such thing as bad publicity

  • Big Maggie

    That’s what I meant, BB.

  • Greenflag

    BB,

    ‘There is no such thing as bad publicity ‘

    There is . This much used cliche may apply in certain cases but not in all circumstances and not always in politics. Bishop Casey did not appreciate the publicity surrounding the ‘resting ‘ of 70,000 pounds of his parishioners offerings in his account for the upkeep of his american bit on the side. Neither did many Conservative Ministers in John Major’s Government of family values, appreciate the revelations of activities of a distinctly non family value ilk .

    BM

    ‘I wonder if he’s aware of Slugger.’

    Not sure I’d have used the word ‘aware ‘ in that context . It has connotations of an acuity or flexibility of mind which may be entirely lacking .

    Nonetheless one hopes a sense of humour may be present although my personal experience of the mindset of the ultra religious is that God is not keen on smiling or telling rude jokes .

    I suppose there are some people who look forward to an eternity of singing and praising with the heavenly chorus and watching the aforesaid boycotting all those ‘events ‘ in which Catholic hymns are sung 😉

    Anyway I’m outta here on this one . Enough as they say is enough 😉

  • Big Maggie

    Greenflag

    Well you’ve given ME quite a few laughs on this one, for which I thank you. But you’re wrong about the ultra religious. David Koresh and Jim Jones were a bundle of laughs—provided you took the kool-aid of course.

  • Padraig

    So were Joe Stalin , Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot and they didn’t exactly kiss the altar rails.

    Just shows, you never know, even fundamentalist, due paying atheists can slide off the rails and maybe even teach David Koresh and Jim Jones a trick or two…..

    But thats the trouble with mud slinging and stereotyping , there’s always a large wallop of mud might hit you back in the kisser from the other side.

  • Big Maggie

    Padraig

    So were Joe Stalin , Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot

    Excuse me? Can you quote a single humorous line from any of them?

  • Jo

    As a councillor, you occupy a public, representative office.

    As such, (and no-one is forced to nominate for election) you should as a moral democratic imperatve, be constrained by your office and represent everyone, irrespective of who actually elected you. Alienating or speaking out about a section of the electorate renders you unfit for the office.

  • Jo

    Before we get carried away with admiration about superststition: I think it is opretty explicit in Scripture that one should not eat prawns.

    Are all prawn open sandwich eaters Hell-bound?

  • PaddyReilly

    The Catholic and Orthodox view of Scripure is that the Gospels contain the actual words of Christ, the Epistles an early commentary on them, and the Old Testament merely figures, something like prophetic dreams of what was going to happen.

    Presbyterians however took all three books and bound them together as one work with equal authority and set out to live their lives according to the rule of the Bible, something which is impossible because the later works repeal the rules in the earlier one.

    So the answer is no, prawn eaters are not hell-bound sinners because

    1) Jews will tell you that these rules are only for Jews, and Gentiles have no business trying to follow them;
    2) Christians better read than yourself will point out that St Paul’s vision of a table decked with forbidden meats repealed the legislation regarding prawns for Christian believers.

  • Big Maggie

    Jo

    Alienating or speaking out about a section of the electorate renders you unfit for the office.

    Hear hear. Shame that Iris Robinson didn’t consider that in recent weeks—and that the FM actually endorsed her outpourings.

    Are all prawn open sandwich eaters Hell-bound?

    Yes of course. Similarly those who eat blackbirds baked in pies. I thought these things were self-evident.

  • Big Maggie

    PaddyReilly

    St Paul’s vision of a table decked with forbidden meats repealed the legislation regarding prawns for Christian believers.

    A vision? Would this be similar to the one Muhammed had when he saw rivers of wine in paradise, alcohol being forbidden to Muslims?

    I understand that a certain Presbyterian minister once had a vision of a line-dancing party in paradise. Goes to show.

  • edward

    Jo

    the only way to represent every one is to represent no one, thus rendering you unfit for office

  • Big Maggie

    edward

    With respect, tosh. One can represent everyone if one holds one’s tongue in public. It’s called diplomacy.

  • Greenflag

    big maggie ,

    ‘Excuse me? Can you quote a single humorous line from any of them? ‘

    Not directly but indirectly there are no end of yarns which rubbish the great dictators justa s much as those which rubbish the one who remains invisible .

    To wit (no pun )

    Stalin one day questions his driver .

    ‘Are you more or less happy than before the Revolution ?’

    ‘Less happy ,’ says the driver.
    ‘And why ?’
    ‘Before the Revolution I had two suits , while today I only have one .’

    ‘What are you complaining about ?’ says Stalin . In Africa people live completely naked .”

    ‘Ah !’ says the driver ,’And when did they have their revolution ?’

  • Big Maggie

    Greenflag

    LOL!

    Thought you said you were done with this thread. But pray continue, self-deprecating humour being proscribed to so many supernaturalists :^)

  • Greenflag

    Jo,

    ‘As such, (and no-one is forced to nominate for election) you should as a moral democratic imperatve, be constrained by your office and represent everyone, irrespective of who actually elected you. Alienating or speaking out about a section of the electorate renders you unfit for the office.’

    Lovely words Jo very sensible , intelligent and ultimately practical . However we are dealing with NI ‘politics’ in which case these words may apply for a small minority in theory, but would never actualy work in practice . Do you believe that Paisley would ever have become DUP First Minister if he had never raised his voice in public condemning fenians,papists,republican scum, etc . There’s at least 30 years of records out there which prove to the Mel Lucas’s of NI that being rude, ignorant, and undiplomatic can pay big political dividends in NI.

    It goes with the territory . Night follows day and all that .

  • Ulsters my homeland

    PaddyReilly

    “[i]The Catholic and Orthodox view of Scripure is that the Gospels contain the actual words of Christ, the Epistles an early commentary on them, and the Old Testament merely figures, something like prophetic dreams of what was going to happen.”[/i]

    We all know why Roman Catholics and Orthodox dispute some of the Old Testament, they don’t want to follow it because their churches have invented traditions which are at odds with it. That’s why Roman Catholics and Orthodox try to suggest the Old Testament was compiled after Christ died (at the council of Jamnia in 90 AD. They try to claim the Jews didn’t have a compiled written word when Christ was alive. Their attempts to re-write history than accept the OT was compiled during Christ’s time on Earth is pathetic to say the least.

    “[i]Presbyterians however took all three books and bound them together as one work with equal authority and set out to live their lives according to the rule of the Bible, something which is impossible because the later works repeal the rules in the earlier one.”[/i]

    What in God’s name are you blabbering about Paddy? Presbyterians did not compose the bible and the later works do not repeal the rules in the OT. The New Testament fulfills the OT, that is what Christ taught, but those around him couldn’t comprehend how this could be, it’s the same today, people just can’t understand.

    There are many laws in the OT which people today wrongly see as applying or not applying to them. These people try to make the OT suit their beliefs, because they fail to understand the proper context in which these books were written. People just don’t understand the OT correctly. There are many books in the OT which are books of prophecy, foretelling the birth, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of those books is the book of Psalms and that book is widely thought of as only a book of Songs. Get my dift? It’s us who are at fault for making the OT suit out traditions. Tradition is at fault.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Greenflag

    “[i]Do you believe that Paisley would ever have become DUP First Minister if he had never raised his voice in public condemning [b]fenians,papists,republican scum, etc [/b].[/i]

    tell us when Paisley condemed the fenians,papists,republican scum, etc?

  • PaddyReilly

    UMH

    For your education I repost the following, which has already appeared on Slugger. The original author was an American:-

    – When I burn a bull on the altar of sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. they claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    – I would like to sell my future children into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, I’m concerned as to what would be a fair price for them?

    – I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24) The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    – Levicitus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided that they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Why can’t I own Canadians?

    – I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    – A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t disagree. Can this be settled on Monday’s Nolan?

    – Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I do have to admit that I wear glasses from time to time. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    – Most of the guys I know get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    – I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    – My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does my aunt by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton & polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of rallying the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)?

    – Couldn’t we just burn them to death in a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

  • Someone Who reads sluggerotoole.com

    The LCU contained elements of the UVF, the UPV and the Ulster Constitution Defence Committee – the last two the creation of Mr Gelignite himself, Noel Doherty. The LCU counter-demo was banned and the march went ahead without incident.

    In November, civil rights marchers assembled again, this time in the Diamond, despite a promise from the LCU that “no placard-waving Fenian will be allowed to pass through Derry’s walls.”

    he DUPs statement questioning the rights of Nationalists/Republicans to parade simply shows the true nature of DUP beliefs and their warped view of what equality actually is. Whilst they denounce Nationalists rights to parade in Ballymena and state this as one of the reasons for the sectarian attacks they are loath to accept the same analysis of violence occurring elsewhere due to Orange parades being forced through Nationalist areas.

  • Greenflag

    UMH ,

    ‘tell us when Paisley condemed the fenians,papists,republican scum, etc?’

    All of his political life up until he became First Minister at which point given the nature of the power sharing agreement it became no longer ‘politic’ .

    And Paisley had a good ear for what was ‘politic’ in NI . You don’t see off Captain O’Neill , Chichester Clark , Brian Faulkner , Jim Molyneaux and David Trimble without having a finger on what the baying mob wants to hear 🙁