Protests grow and spread

With both éirígí and SF already declaring protests against the MoD parade in Belfast, British Army Chaplain David Latimer has also expressed disaproval.

I’ve also heard of protests being organised by RNU (Republican Network for Unity) at the Markets and the WSM (Workers Solidarity Movement)

UPDATE: The IRSP and 32CSM will be protesting at the Markets. RSF still intend to be at their annual Edentubber commemoration.

  • Steve

    The british army could always cancel their parade and for once do some good in nIreland

  • Driftwood

    Any society that was ‘anti-war’ has long since disappeared.
    Switzerland was on the map of Europe last time I looked.

  • Switzerland was on the map of Europe last time I looked.

    Switzerland is far from anti-war! Just try invading them if you don’t believe me.

    Swiss Army

  • KD

    No Horseman you presume incorrectly.

  • CYNIC

    If the RIR parade is stopped as SF now suggest then will they agree that every republican pararde through the city centre must also be stopped? And every memorial at the shrines to murderers they have erected across the country?

    Parity of esteem is a dangerous concept.

  • So, KD, when I presume “that you are anti-this-war, but will keep your options open for the future. Just in case, for instance, the next war is one that is unequivocally necessary for you and your society – I am incorrect?

    So, if, for example, another country invaded Northern Ireland you would oppose defence? You would simply stand back and let them in?

    Or are you luxuriating in Northern Ireland’s isolated position, that allows you to hold such principles.

    Would you have been an anti-war Bosnian woman in the early 1990s, or an anti-war Rwandan waiting for the machete? I think not. All of our principles depend on our circumstances, and if those circumstances start to change then so should your principles … or you’re dead!

  • Mike

    Garibaldy

    “As for autocue’s remarks about getting at the troops. I’m sorry – does being in an army remove moral responsibility? Didn’t we settle that argument in Neuremberg?”

    “I have a genuine concern about the attempts to expand the role of the military into civilian life,”

    “Historically the army has been a tool of those who have resisted the expansion of rights.”

    “This is exactly the type of creeping militarism and expansion of the army into civilian areas that I am talking about. ”

    There’s a massive contradiction at the heart of your argument here, since you seem to be advocating the armed forces refusing to accept decisions on military policy made by the democratically-elected government, and mandated by Parliament.

  • Oh that it could be all just as jolly good fun as V.E. day in Dublin back in 1945 as the TCD students waved Allied flags, UCD students protested and some guy by the name of Haughey burnt a Union flag. Thank God we have all moved on a bit!!

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Would you have been an anti-war Bosnian woman in the early 1990s, or an anti-war Rwandan waiting for the machete? I think not. All of our principles depend on our circumstances, and if those circumstances start to change then so should your principles … or you’re dead!”

    Very true!

  • KD

    Horseman – who would want to invade N.I. for heavens sake – get real man. You couldn’t give the place away.

  • … who would want to invade N.I. for heavens sake …

    That is entirely my point. You are relying on the fact that NI is isolated to avoid having to take aa real position on war. NI can afford ‘anti-war’ sentiment because it has no hostile neighbours, but that is hardly a very strong moral position, is it?

    And if the whole of NI agreed with you, and NI was independent, you can be certain that someone would notice the opportunity and step in. If they were assured of no armed opposition, I’m pretty sure lots of people, states, criminal gangs, etc, would like to take over the place.

    You couldn’t give the place away.

    Now I’m sure you’re taking the piss. What the hell has the last 40 years beeen all about?

  • Yellowford

    If it were the Irish Defence Forces marching in a homecoming parade in Belfast with all the usual trappings and paraphenalia, you could very well see Unionists and Republicans changing sides.

    Ahh, the hypocrisy of it all.

  • eranu

    dont think so yellow. for starters they would have been invited here!

  • Quite a number of the soldiers in the (Irish) Defence Forces are from the north, particularly Belfast. If Belfast CC invited them to hold some sort of march (when they come back from their current humanitarian mission to Chad), would unionists object?

  • Yellowford

    And there in lies the problem. There’s a lot of rhetoric on this blog about parity of esteem. Two traditions, but only one extensively catered for. The MOD has tried to pretend it is an apolitical homecoming. Let’s see if it works out the way their media savvy spin doctor professes. You’d think they would have learned by now.
    Feeding time at the zoo…

  • Mike

    I think that is known in the world of blogging and internet forums as a “straw man”…

  • eranu

    yellow / horse, do you realise that the ROI is a different country from us? we live in the UK. thats the problem i think, the pretend nationalist world. it sounds like you think that ROI soldiers should parade in belfast for no reason, except because its ireland. is that what your thinking?

    (off home now)

  • kid

    Lets face it lads if this was an interment parade you wouldn’t mind but since the uniforms in this parade actually were wore in a area of real war fighting compared to being used by boys doing bank jobs you have a problem.

    Also spare a thought for the number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment who have came home not expecting to receive less hostility from the Taliban than there own community.

  • Yellowford

    Eranu. Who’s us? And what makes you assume i live in the UK? It’s this ‘Our Wee Country’ mentality that is deliberately excluding nationalists from engaging in a productive fashion. Open your eyes man, and maybe your heart will follow.

  • Earnan

    I feel for these soldiers who come back into this sh*tty situation. They don’t deserve this. Unionist and Republicans probably are thinking about the actual soldiers last, but about getting a chance to get at “themmuns” first.

    But still, it’s a dumb ass parade. You don’t see whole regiments parading through New York, London, etc everytime they get back from a deployment. Also, the weather is probably gonna be bad anyway. Why would some private want to parade? I would just want to go visit my family and get away from the military after being stuck in that sh*thole known as the middle east/SW asia.

  • Mike

    “It’s this ‘Our Wee Country’ mentality ”

    What on earth is that supposed to mean??

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Since you’re being pedantic – that big island is called Great Britain, not Britain. Britain/British has a wider definition,’

    Actually Reader if we’re really pedantic, doesn’t Britain refer to just England and Wales. Great Britain refers to these two with Scotland incorporated ? But as you say people can choose to have a wider definition if they choose, however inaccurate that may be.

    ‘The flag – which includes an Irish component – is nevertheless, all British.’

    Like I said, G.Britain/Britain is an island. But those brits like to incorporate irish components wether the irish like it or not….don’t they?

  • Congal Claen

    Republicans had a propaganda bonanza over their objections to OO parades which carried very well for political export. Up until Enniskillen. Protests at Remembrance services/parades fell back badly after that. It’s difficult to know what way it’ll go on Sunday. However, it could be a major own goal for the Shinners. Of course, unionism could be let down by some hangers on. It’s just a question of which side bring the biggest tossers. Which is unknowable prior to the event.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Stones,

    Ireland, all Ireland, is British by virtue of being in the British Isles. I’m Irish and also British. And unfortunately for you, a chara, so are you.

    FYI…

    writing around AD 70, Pliny the Elder enumerates the islands he considers to make up the Britannias, listing Great Britain, Ireland, and many smaller islands.
    Ptolemy is quite clear that Ireland – he calls it Hibernia – belongs to the group he calls Britannia.
    Throughout Book 4 of his Geography, Strabo uses the terms Prettans or Brettans for the islands as a group.

  • jacques

    “doesn’t Britain refer to just England and Wales. Great Britain refers to these two with Scotland incorporated”

    Does the French help? Isn’t Bretagne a penninsula in France and Grand Bretagne a big island across the Channel.

  • Greenflag

    A remembrance of others who have given their lives in Afghanistan neither Irish or British .

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘the British Isles’

    A term not only inaccurate and out of date but also one which holds no legal or offical weight.

    It seems you might like to holiday in Siam and Ceylon as well.

  • congal claen

    Hi Stones,

    Unfortunately, for you, it is up to date and enjoys widespread use throughout the world. It’s the “ourselves alone” attitude of a hundred years ago that is out of date.

    Interestingly, Strabo also calls the smaller island Ierne. Which is where the term Ireland comes from. Cherry-picking nationalism at it’s best again. Don’t you care about your heritage?

  • ggn

    “Strabo also calls the smaller island Ierne”

    Why do you think that was?

  • Ri Na Deise

    ‘The British Isles’

    Both a geographically inaccurate and politically loaded term.

    Jeez you lot will go to any lengths in your attempts to justify the occupation of Ireland and your deluded beliefs.

  • RepublicanStones

    Unfortunately congal, the term is indeed outdated. Your right that many people do use it, so therefore you seem to be of the opinion that just because alot of say something, it must be right.

    Its not the republican attitude thats out of date..its more like this attitude

    “Ireland, all Ireland, is British by virtue of being in the British Isles. I’m Irish and also British. And unfortunately for you, a chara, so are you.”

    is rather dated don’t you think. infact your attitude reminds me of a funny little interview between an actor and a british interviewer a few years ago.

    “Samuel L. Jackson the screen legend was recently interviewed by Kate Thornton on British T.V. about working with Colin Farrell in S.W.A.T. when the following conversation took place:

    Kate: What’s it like working with Colin, ‘cos he is just so hot in the U.K. right now.

    Samuel: He’s pretty hot in the U.S. too

    Kate: Yea! but he’s one of our own!

    Samuel: Isn’t he from Ireland

    Kate: Yeah, but we claim him ‘cos Ireland is beside us.

    Samuel: You see that’s your problem right there. You British keep claiming people that don’t belong to you. We had that problem in America too – it was called slavery.”

    P.S

    Is Éireannach mé.

  • OC

    Great idea!

    Have RIR and RoI regiments parade in Belfast, and Dublin!

  • andrew

    Great idea!

    Tell the MOD to cancel their parade as many in Belfast find it offensive, just as many towns and cities in Britain have decided that they don’t want British army homecoming marches on thier streets.

  • If you’re from the West Indies, you’re an Indian?

    If you’re from British Columbia, are you British, or Columbian?

    If you’re from New Mexico, you’re a Mexican?

    Nova Scotia – Scottish?

    New England – English?

    Historical names do not confer nationality. Law does. And the law (British and Irish) says that people from NI are Irish and/or British acording to thir wishes.

  • picador

    The mainstream British / Irish media seem resolute in its determination to ignore / downplay the potential for disorder here (perhaps because they are sick of the whole Norn Iron business and / or have paid off their local correspondents). But we are sleepwalking into conflict here. And no-one seems to want to pull the situation back.

    When the proverbial shit hits the fan here on Sunday I know who I will hold primarily responsible – the British Ministry of Defence.

  • polly anna

    Everyone is enjoying hyping this up, more like: it’s going to be a damp squib. This ‘sleepwalking back to conflict’ dire prediction is stupidly over the top.
    It’s nowhere near the threshold for a national UK news story at this point, especially at this time of Actual Stories (recession, American election etc, actual conflict in Middle East). Should the Six O’Clock News and Channel Four News be running features based on the ranting of a few posters on forums like this and some posters on the Falls and the Shankill?
    IMO at worst, there will be a day of shouted insults, and a few lobbed missiles between pissed spides before everyone is funneled home safely by the cops.
    Watch this space. People here just love the idea of a looming apocalypse. Not gonna happen. Relax yourselves, those of you who aren’t enjoying a nostalgic frisson.

  • Driftwood

    Any truth in the rumour that Eirigi and SF are to picket cinemas showing “Quantum of Solace” with its British intelligence and imperialist outlook.
    Should films like this be shown here where Irish nationalists have suffered for thousands of years at the hands of MI5 etc? Weren’t MI5/MI6 and their UDR lackeys also responsible for the famine?

  • andrew

    ‘IMO at worst, there will be a day of shouted insults, and a few lobbed missiles between pissed spides before everyone is funneled home safely by the cops.’

    I agree Polly, doubt their will by any major disturbances, much to the disappointment of the ambulance chasers and keyboard Generals on here.

    The éirígí crowd won’t get past Castle Street(no doubt will throw a few bricks), The Shinners are restricting their counter demonstration to 500 and a couple of hundred IRSP at Cromac Square.

    Off course their may be some problems away from the City Centre with loyalist supporters returning from the parade past flash points, but i would presume the loyalist paramilitaries will have some sort of marshalling process in place.

    For example, loyalists are planning to meet at the Conn club in East Belfast before making their way to the RIR parade, and i expect that their is some kind of organisation to this event to stop attacks on Catholic homes en route.

  • Steve

    horseman

    british columbian
    novs scotian

  • RepublicanStones

    @ Drift at 08:37…..you need a hug !

  • Steve

    Andrew

    I think you assume to much about the loyalists

    and as they say assuming makes an ass out of u and me

    PS do the loyalists have a parade permit?

  • Driftwood

    RS
    Only joking! We all know it was Brigadier Frank Kitson who arranged the potato blight. You can buy a halloween mask of him in Glenanne. Scares the shit out of nationalist kids apparently.

  • polly annapa

    There’s no doubt about it: there will be no major trouble on Sunday. I doubt there will be anything past minor skirmishes, if that. Much as some people here would clearly relish August 69 again, and already having apportioned the blame, it ain’t gonna happen. It will be a funny wee parade, a boys’ own flypast and a damp squib smattering of protests.

    ‘Sleepwalking into conflict’ might be a good line for a book, or a film, but it’s laughable in relation to the looming non event. I’ll see you back here on Sunday night to collect my metaphorical winnings :p

  • RepublicanStones

    Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a recent slump in Drifts demeanour?

    I think I was right….you need a hug.

  • WindsorRocker

    Historical names do not confer nationality. Law does. And the law (British and Irish) says that people from NI are Irish and/or British acording to thir wishes.

    Posted by Horseman on Oct 28, 2008 @ 07:13 PM

    Surely British citizenship is automatically conferred on people born and bred in NI…. Irish citizenship is a right that has to be exercised….

  • picador

    Polly Anna,

    You seem very confident about this. I hope you’re right. However with various flavours of the IRA (including the INLA) and loyalist paramilitaries on the streets I just can’t see where the happy ending comes from. I am deeply cynical about the capacity of the PSNI to contain any violence that may arise (and undoubtebly violence – i.e. conflict – will arise).

    If the PSNI get stuck into nationalists while loyalists cheer them on what do you think the outcome will be? God forbid that there should be any ‘martyrs’ – of either the living or dead varieties.

    This march is irresponsible and should be called off.

  • picador

    As an addendum to my previous comments I did not state that this story should be a leading story in the news in either Britain or the South. However I have not seen it mentioned at all in any of the press which worries me, particularly as: homecoming parades for troops have not been taking place in British cities due to the strength of anti-war sentiment; and paramilitary organisations with a penchant for violence are mobilising for and against this one. I understand that the British and Irish governments are preoccupied with the financial crisis but it seems to me that they have gone o sleep on this one.

    We do not need violence on our streets. Call the damned thing off.

  • polly anna

    OH, THE HUMANITY!

    Don’t worry, it’s going to be fine. As long as you’re OK with a minor bit of squabbling and a couple of hurled beer tins between spides some distance from each other and a bit of pissed verbal.
    At worst.

  • veteran

    How come éirígí or SF were not at Castlebar holding a protest parade on October 7th when 500 veterans (British & Irish) paraded through the town. Read Roy Garland’s article
    “Right or wrong, acknowledge sacrifice” 26th Oct Irish news

    ‘On October 7, 500 members and 30 standard bearers of Irish and British ex-service persons’ associations paraded through Castlebar in county Mayo led by Castlebar Town Band.

    They were followed by 100 schoolchildren while other children and citizens lined the route to give the veterans a warm welcome. When everyone had taken their seats at the Peace Park, a 107-strong guard from an Irish-speaking unit were inspected by the Republic’s president Mary McAleese who opened the event. Irish Guards, including drummers and pipers in full uniform, played military tunes in the presence of Irish, British and international dignitaries.

    The Peace Park boasts a large memorial wall similar to the US Vietnam Wall and inscribed with over 1,000 names of Co Mayo service people who fell during the First World War.

    An impressive array of smaller monuments commemorate those who died in the Second World War, Vietnam, Korea and in British, US, Canadian and Australian uniforms.

    The previous night an Irish Guards band and a Liverpool ex-service Irish Guards Choir played and sang at a memorial concert.’

    http://www.irishnews.com/articles/540/606/2008/10/27/601231_361478714362Rightorw.html

  • veteran
  • George

    Veteran,
    you forgot to mention that the Germans were also represented in Mayo. It’s less jingoistic when you remember equally all the dead in a war because you move it away from the realms of glorification of one side towards true remembrance of the suffering of all in war.

    Much easier to get broad community support for such events in my view.

  • andrew

    ‘We do not need violence on our streets. Call the damned thing off.’

    Can’t disagee with you Picador.

    The whole idea of a parade was always going to be highjacked by those who care little for the soldiers or their families.

    Thus we have Robinson and the rest climbing on the bandwagon to show their ‘Britishness’ !!

    The fact that loyalist paramilitaries are now organising their ‘troops’ for Sunday shows the folly of the Ministry Of Defence decision.

    The irony is no one from the MOD can be bothered making a comment over, what was always going to be, a controversial decision in allowing the parade.

  • congal claen

    Hi GGN,

    “Strabo also calls the smaller island Ierne”

    Why do you think that was?

    After the Errain, a tribe from SW Britain who moved over to the Cork area. So, even Ireland as a name and hence Irish is of British origin. Ironic then that so many reject it.

    Hi Ri,

    “Both a geographically inaccurate and politically loaded term.
    Jeez you lot will go to any lengths in your attempts to justify the occupation of Ireland and your deluded beliefs.”

    Geographically, it’s spot on having a provenance of several millenia. It’s no more politically loaded than “Irish Sea”. Should that be changed to Great British and Irish Sea?

    “Occupation of Ireland”??? Of course that wouldn’t be a politically loaded term. Must be why I get those letters to the house with “To the Occupier” on them.

    Hi Stones,

    “Unfortunately congal, the term is indeed outdated. You’re right that many people do use it, so therefore you seem to be of the opinion that just because alot of say something, it must be right.”

    The argument arises because some nationalists argue that British only applies to the island of Britain, really Great britain but we’ll let that go. That arises from ignorance of the history of these isles. It’s also the patronising tone of some of the posters. Thinking they’re being all clever when in actual fact they know little to fek all about this isle they claim to love so much.

    You also say it’s outdated. That’s just nonsense. Do a google search for both terms and see which one turns up the most hits. You could also say Irish Gaelic is outdated. Yet it’d be a shame to let that go. Or is outdated Irish stuff all the rage nowadays?

  • Danny O’Connor

    All this hypocracy ,Warmongers protest about war in Afghanistan.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘it’s spot on having a provenance of several millenia’

    So people have been using the term ‘British Isles’ for ‘several millenia’????

    ‘It’s also the patronising tone of some of the posters.’

    Agreed and I would re-direct you to funny little clip of the interview I provided.

    ‘The argument arises because some nationalists argue that British only applies to the island of Britain’

    No the argument arises when people seek to infer Ireland is somehow inferior to/subservient to/the property of Britain by using what is inaccurate, outdated and arrogant term. You mention the Irish sea, good, now tell me if all the Island of Britain and Ireland make up the ‘British Isles’, why isn’t it called the british sea? Its simple, because Britain is an island, its Isles are the little islands dotted around it, of which, Ireland is not one.

    ‘You could also say Irish Gaelic is outdated. Yet it’d be a shame to let that go.’

    So you admit the term is outdated and also seem to see an equivalence between a politically loaded and outdated term with an indigenous language?????? Why would it be a shame to stop sing the term British Isles? Im willing to bet most of the people of Ireland don’t like the term, so why insist on using it, especially as it has no legal or official capacity. The rugby heads showed they were mature enough to rename the British Lions to the British and Irish (why do you think they did this?), it seems others aren’t yet ready to show the same.

    Re-read the Sam Jackson interview, it’ll do you good.

  • Intelligence Insider

    I hope that the homecoming parade on Sunday does pass of peacefully. This is not a Unionist parade, this is a parade to allow the families and friends of British and Irish servicemen who have served in battlefields abroad to welcome them home safe. This parade is a way of showing our thanks for the sacrifices that their comrades have made and to them for their valour. Many of these soldiers will be Roman Catholic, many will be of the Protestant faith and many will have no faith. Those who seek to cause disruption on Sunday should hang their heads in shame, they are a defeated “army”. The British Army are the victors and have every right to proudly walk any street in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

  • Ri Na Deise

    Hi Congal,

    Socialist that I am I permit you to call me Deise.

    Monarchism is such an outdated system dont you think?

  • veteran

    Veteran,
    “you forgot to mention that the Germans were also represented in Mayo. It’s less jingoistic when you remember equally all the dead in a war because you move it away from the realms of glorification of one side towards true remembrance of the suffering of all in war.”

    George,

    There were no German veterans on the parade through Castlebar and no German names are remembered on the Peace Park memorials. All names are Irish from Co Mayo.

  • veteran

    George,

    What i forgot to mention was that some Irish American vets paraded with their standards to represent those CO Mayo men who served and died with US armed forces in WW2.

    Can you imagine Irish American supporters of the shinners holding a protest march against this homecoming parade in the US? I doubt it, the yanks would chuck them all in the clanger and later deport them for being anti American.

    ‘El Paso Hosts Texas-Sized Homecoming Parade for Returned Cavalry Troops’
    http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=49108

  • Would it be compulsory for the soldiers to march.
    I am sure there must be some in there midst thinking that we have had enough war in Afghanistan to keep us going for a while.

    Unionists want to march british soldiers on the streets of belfast but do not have generosity of spirit to introduce policing and justice and an Irish language act.
    If one would like generosity in others it would help to display some one self.

    One wonders if unionists are trying to turn this into some sort of victory parade for themselves.

  • George

    Veteran,
    there were no German veterans parading because Irish people didn’t join its army. But, as with any memorial in Ireland to those who lost their lives in WW1, the Germans were also invited to remember, as this all about remembrance of those who lost their lives in war, not the glorification of those who served.

    That is why there was also a German military colour party there in the wilds of Mayo.

    Although, I fully accept your point about the SFers and the US homecoming parades, do we really want to encourage such a jingoistic society where sinister terms such as “anti-American” are bandied about with such regularity?

    Give me the policy of true remembrance any day.

  • Deaglan

    What was wrong with the proposed civic reception and thanksgiving service? The one for the RUC passed off without anyone getting their scanties in a twist. Why has someone from the MOD decided that a march which would not be permitted in- Oh, let’s say, Bradford or Brixton-should be waved on through Belfast?
    The protest was inevitable. The Loyalist counter protest-protest was inevitable. The only mystery is why some chinless wonder thought that the natives of the city would simply love to see all the brass pop by? Did they think that love-in up on the hill was, like, for real?

  • veteran

    “One wonders if unionists are trying to turn this into some sort of victory parade for themselves.”

    Binding,
    You have a point, when Unionist politicians (mostly Orangemen) organise parades they want to march in your front door and out the back so as to let you know their presence.

    The Royal Irish Regiment are to have four homecoming parades at four different councils. Crikey, you would have thought one parade was enough. Are different Unionist councils competing against each other here to show who is the most loyal to Queen & country. Looks like Wee Jeffery & Lisburn City Council missed out this time.

    Friday 31 October Ballymena
    Saturday 1 November Larne
    Sunday 2 November Belfast
    Saturday 15 November Castlereagh

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/YOUR-TRIBUTES-Thank-the-heroes.4636764.jp
    http://www.larnetimes.co.uk/news/39Living-gift39-of-music-to.4591000.jp

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Are different Unionist councils competing against each other here to show who is the most loyal to Queen & country.”

    They probably are! But isn’t persistant marching, military bands, military tattoos, wars, battles, commerations etc.. such a major facet of British culture and identity!

    Has anyone ever noticed that there is likely to be a presence of the British military at any major events in the UK, whether it be sporting events, etc…even the annual ‘panto’ parade for the Lord Mayor of London includes APC’s, marching troops, etc…
    Last Sunday at the American football game at Wembley, there were the troops in khaki fatigues in attendance on the pitch before the game rather than stewards or volunteers, what ye might see elsewhere.
    I remember the opening ceremony of the second Rugby World Cup in 1991 involved the Royal Marines parading around the pitch with fixed bayonets. I bet when London holds the Olympics in 2012 their services will be required as they’ll be a crucial part of the opening ceremony!

    Rather than be upset, folk should just accept it! Like it or not, the British army is a part of the backbone of British culture!

  • congal claen

    Hi Stones,

    “So people have been using the term ‘British Isles’ for ‘several millenia’????”

    Considering that English didn’t exist as a language the actual words didn’t exist. But the term from where they derived did. I gave you the quotes from some of the most famous scholars of the classical age regarding the naming of these isles. Should you choose to ignore them it’s your loss.

    “No the argument arises when people seek to infer Ireland is somehow inferior to/subservient to/the property of Britain by using what is inaccurate, outdated and arrogant term.”

    British is a collective name for all the islands. None of them is inferior or superior. You must have an inferiority complex to think so.

    “You mention the Irish sea, good, now tell me if all the Island of Britain and Ireland make up the ‘British Isles’, why isn’t it called the british sea? Its simple, because Britain is an island, its Isles are the little islands dotted around it, of which, Ireland is not one.”

    The reason I mentioned Irish Sea, which I would’ve thought was fairly obvious, was that it’s another example were naming does not convey ownership. Ireland no more owns the Irish Sea than Britain owns the British Isles. Millenia ago there was no central government. Just a collection of kingdoms and tribal areas throughout the British Isles. No one owned them. Your insecurity in your own identity is shining through here.

    “So you admit the term is outdated and also seem to see an equivalence between a politically loaded and outdated term with an indigenous language?????? Why would it be a shame to stop sing the term British Isles? Im willing to bet most of the people of Ireland don’t like the term, so why insist on using it, especially as it has no legal or official capacity.”

    No I admitted no such thing. You keep saying politically loaded then use such terms as “indigenous”. You’re into you irony! Most of the people who live in the British Isles refer to them as such. As does most of the world. Done the Google search yet?

    “The rugby heads showed they were mature enough to rename the British Lions to the British and Irish (why do you think they did this?), it seems others aren’t yet ready to show the same.”

    That cuts both ways. Drop the SS for Ireland then?

    “Re-read the Sam Jackson interview, it’ll do you good.”

    I actually saw the interview at the time. Whilst it was commendable that he recognises the political realities, it’s another example of a little knowledge being more dangerous than none at all. As witnessed by your own lack of knowledge of your own history and heritage.

  • congal claen

    Hi Deise,

    Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.

  • Modernist

    Should prob have translated that last post for those who dont speak gaeilge so ill translate the following. Sorry if I caused any offence to anyone.

    “Aontaím leatsa ggn. Mothaim féin go bhfuil dearcadh frith-ghaelach ag alán stiúrthóir sa BhBC anseo in Éirinn is thar lear san Alban. Féach siar ar an agóid ar son an Act le dearanas is na figiúirí mhícheart a d’fhoilsigh siad faoi líon na n-agóideoirí. É sin ráite ní mór dom a rá go ngabhaim gach aon dea-mhéin don stáisiún iontach seo ” translates as

    “I agree with you ggn. I personally feel that there is an anti-gaelic outlook amongst many directors of the BBC here in Ireland and over in scotland. Just look at the misreporting of the numbers of protesters protesting for the Act recently. That said I have to say that I wish all the best to this great station”

    Sílim gur mór an trua nach bhfuil na fó-theacs ghaidhlige nó béarla curtha ar fáil don luch féachaintise. Is cabhair iontach iadsan do dhaoine nach raibh an deis acu an teanga a fhoghlaim is le cúnamh dé mhíthuiscint i dtreo na teanga a maolú.

    I think that its a big shame that the subtitles are not available in gaelic or english to the viewers. They are a great help tothose who never had the opportunity to learn the language and to allieviate misunderstanding towards the language.

  • Modernist

    ModeratorPlease delete the previons post. I T HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC

  • What are the odds that this parade is one of the prices that the DUP extracted from Brown in return for their support for his 42-day internment proposal?

    The claims that he ‘bought’ their support were denied, but since this is not a monetary reward, maybe it doesn’t really count as having been ‘bought’.

    The campaign (by the Newsletter mainly) to get such a parade was started up around the same time. And it fitted in with some of the ‘British’ rubbish that Brown used to sprout. So, as an easy price to pay, he agreed that the MoD would ‘facilitate’ any parades that the unionists could organise. Hence the MoD silence at the moment.

  • eranu

    why dont the republican folk lead the way and have their protest indoors where it wont cause anyone any offence?
    HA! get out of that one !!
    (security word ‘game’ LOL)

  • … have their protest indoors …

    In the Waterfront Hall. Deal?

    😉

  • eranu

    certainly. think its booked on sunday though. hows monday for you?
    security word ‘better’. seriously!

  • picador

    What are the odds that this parade is one of the prices that the DUP extracted from Brown in return for their support for his 42-day internment proposal?

    Interesting thought. Perhaps the quid pro quo is that Robinson agrees a date for the transfer of P & J powers and an ILA.

    In any case, there’s going to be trouble.

  • picador

    Perhaps the quid pro quo is that Robinson agrees a date for the transfer of P & J powers and an ILA.

    Signs are that’s part of the gameplan. According to Brian Walker, Gordon Brown has backed both: Gordon Brown strongly backs the RIR parade and the devolution of policing and justice

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘British is a collective name for all the islands. None of them is inferior or superior. You must have an inferiority complex to think so.’

    No, British is a collective name for Britain and its Isles, of which Ireland is not one.

    ‘Your insecurity in your own identity is shining through here.’

    Afraid not old son. Rather your own sense of superiority is shining through by claiming everyone is british.

    ‘Ireland no more owns the Irish Sea than Britain owns the British Isles.’

    It seems your ignorant of the history, because for many a century Britain did indeed think she owned the other large Island to the west, which is why the term is so politically loaded. But you seem unable to either recognise or admit this.

    ‘Most of the people who live in the British Isles refer to them as such’

    You must have some circle of friends. Have you asked them? Also doi you think the majority of people in Ireland would refer to them as such?

    ‘it’s another example of a little knowledge being more dangerous than none at all. As witnessed by your own lack of knowledge of your own history and heritage.’

    What was dangerous about what Mr Jackson said to the interviewer pray tell?
    The only thing lacking here is your respect for people on the Island next to the one you love so well.

  • picador,

    Signs are that’s part of the gameplan …

    I should have added that the other element in the gameplan is that SF don’t rock the boat too much. Hence the noticed absence of senior members, while at the same time they make at least a token protest for appearances sake.

    None of this is rocket science. It’s just politics. If it goes wrong everyone has their excuses already in place and their scapegoat ready. And then its on to the next step, the next crisis, and the next solution. But the destination is clear – its just the precise route that is still a bit fuzzy. The DUP will agree to P+J, and get thrown a bone to placate their madder dogs. They’ll choke on the bone, but on we’ll go …

  • congal claen

    Hi Stones,

    “No, British is a collective name for Britain and its Isles, of which Ireland is not one.”

    No, I’m afraid you’re actually factually incorrect on this. If you refer back to my original post you’ll see Pliny the Elder named the islands which made up the Britannias. Ireland was one of them.

    “Afraid not old son. Rather your own sense of superiority is shining through by claiming everyone is british.”

    Had you been born Prod Stones (an assumption I’m making here – apologies if it’s wrong) I reckon you’d be British and not Irish. There’s a more sensible path you know.

    “It seems your ignorant of the history, because for many a century Britain did indeed think she owned the other large Island to the west, which is why the term is so politically loaded. But you seem unable to either recognise or admit this.”

    During this time the Political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. British Isles pre and post dates that period.

    “You must have some circle of friends. Have you asked them? Also doi you think the majority of people in Ireland would refer to them as such?”

    This is the Google search I was talking about. I’m assuming you didn’t try it. Go on, check it out. You may learn something.

    “What was dangerous about what Mr Jackson said to the interviewer pray tell?
    The only thing lacking here is your respect for people on the Island next to the one you love so well.”

    Being corrected and looking a bit out of his depth. How is having knowledge of a group of islands’ heritage disrespectful?

  • congal claen,

    you’ll see Pliny the Elder named the islands which made up the Britannias …

    I think you mean Ptolemaeus, circa 150 AD.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Had you been born Prod Stones (an assumption I’m making here – apologies if it’s wrong) I reckon you’d be British and not Irish. There’s a more sensible path you know.’

    Hang on you claimed eveyone is british. I hardly think thats a sensible position.

    Pliny the Elder died circa AD 70 and he also referred to Hibernia did he not? He also mentioned all the little isles around britain. Are you suggesting he named all these? Surely they had names before him.

    ‘During this time the Political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. British Isles pre and post dates that period.’

    Hang on I thought the UK was still around today???

    ‘Being corrected and looking a bit out of his depth.’

    I fail to see how by correcting the interviewer Mr Jackson was out of his depth.

    ‘How is having knowledge of a group of islands’ heritage disrespectful?’

    Its not but claiming everyone is british is rather a bit, is it not?

  • I posted this on another thread (getting mixed up, maybe), but it is more valid here:

    It is questionable whether the ‘Q’ celts were even in Ireland much before 50 BC. It is likely that 2000 years go we were all ‘P’ celts (or Priteni), in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The Q celts came from Gaul, so I imagine that they were mostly Q celts there before they were romanised.

    Ptolemaeus may have been correct (tho he based his map on information that was old even in his time); subsequent invasion by the non-Pretanic Q celts made Ireland non-Pretanic, and made the calling of these islands ‘Pretanic’ obsolete. Don’t worry, congal claen, you’re only 1800 years out of date!

  • RepublicanStones

    The seafearers handbook ‘Massaliot Periplus’ also refers to the Islands now known as Ireland and Britain as well. This was in the 6th century BC. Pliny the Elder lived about 600yrs later.

  • Rory

    I think that Polly Anna makes the most sense so far on this thread. Major confrontation between rival groups is extremely unlikely unless both the PSNI and the SF leadership colluded to allow , even orchestrate it and surely not even the most excitable commentator on this site (apart from youknowwho) would envision that.

    There might be some stand-off between returning loyalists, pretending to be frustrated at missing confrontation, and the PSNI; and some low-level missile throwing from the Markets but none of it will knock Georgina from off the front of the red-tops come Monday morning.

    It is all a matter of priorities and as a generality those showing tits prevail over those making tits (of themselves).

  • Rory,

    Its all about posturing. As long as each feels they’ve shouted loudest then they’ll go back home feeling big. Nobody actually wants a riot. It’s a matter of seeming to have stood up for/against whatever that is important. Games, games, games, while behind it all, hidden behind this smokescreen of mock indignation (on both sides) other things are probably happening.

  • congal claen

    Hi Horseman,

    “I think you mean Ptolemaeus, circa 150 AD.”

    No, I meant Pliny. However, as you say Ptolemy also named Ireland as being in the Britannias which rather backs up what I’m saying.

    “It is questionable whether the ‘Q’ celts were even in Ireland much before 50 BC. It is likely that 2000 years go we were all ‘P’ celts (or Priteni), in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The Q celts came from Gaul, so I imagine that they were mostly Q celts there before they were romanised.

    Ptolemaeus may have been correct (tho he based his map on information that was old even in his time); subsequent invasion by the non-Pretanic Q celts made Ireland non-Pretanic, and made the calling of these islands ‘Pretanic’ obsolete. Don’t worry, congal claen, you’re only 1800 years out of date!”

    Iberia I believe, not Gaul – for those that came to Ireland. The Q and P just refer to how they pronounced certain words/letters. It’s like saying that because we all speak English now that we’re English! Something I’m sure you’d reject. Largely, the population hasn’t changed much in terms of genes. Identity has and some choose to reject the identity of their forebears. Hence, this discussion. Pretanic is more ancient than British and shouldn’t be confused. However, good bit of groundwork there Horseman. Perhaps over time it’ll sink in.

    Hi Stones,

    “Hang on you claimed eveyone is british. I hardly think thats a sensible position.”

    In the same way that anyone born on Irleand is also Irish. What I was doing was comparing you to an extreme unionist and trying to demonstrate how alike you are with their position.

    “Pliny the Elder died circa AD 70 and he also referred to Hibernia did he not? He also mentioned all the little isles around britain. Are you suggesting he named all these? Surely they had names before him.”

    Almost certainly. When I say named, I meant he wrote down which islands were in the Britannias. Not that he actually gave them their names. FFS!

    “Hang on I thought the UK was still around today???”

    Completely out of context. I was just explaining to you that British Isles does not convey ownership by Britain. When Ireland was part of the UK the political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. They’re not the same. Being part of the British Isles does not mean that you’re politically British. In the same way, I’m Irish as in “of Ireland” but I’m not politically Irish. That was also my point about the Irish Sea not conveying ownership to Ireland. But, you failed to grasp that point either. Fingers crossed eh?

    “I fail to see how by correcting the interviewer Mr Jackson was out of his depth.”

    Well, that’s hardly a surprise. You’ve failed to see most points during this discussion.

    “Its not but claiming everyone is british is rather a bit, is it not?”

    No.

    “The seafearers handbook ‘Massaliot Periplus’ also refers to the Islands now known as Ireland and Britain as well. This was in the 6th century BC. Pliny the Elder lived about 600yrs later.”

    And what was his collective term for all the islands?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘In the same way that anyone born on Irleand is also Irish.’

    So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish?

    ‘When I say named, I meant he wrote down which islands were in the Britannias. Not that he actually gave them their names. FFS!’

    So when you say someone named something you mean he didn’t name them. Right gotcha.

    ‘But, you failed to grasp that point either. Fingers crossed eh?’

    Eh no, Im not the person who says something, which once proven untrue, then says he actually meant something else FFS.

    ‘Well, that’s hardly a surprise. You’ve failed to see most points during this discussion.’

    Ok, i’ll ask again, how by correcting the interviewer was Mr Jackson being dangerous and out of his depth?

    ‘No.’

    Ok so calling people British when they themselves say they are not is not disrespectful. Ok gotcha.

    ‘And what was his collective term for all the islands?’

    Whose?

  • congal claen,

    Iberia I believe, not Gaul – for those that came to Ireland.

    You’re basing yourself on myth, not history. The argument for Spain is entirely artificial, with zero evidence. [ref. O’Rahilly p. 195, ggn ;-))

    The Q and P just refer to how they pronounced certain words/letters. It’s like saying that because we all speak English now that we’re English! Something I’m sure you’d reject.

    What’s your point? Are ou arguing that they weren’t ‘celtic’, even tho language is actually the primary defining feature of that categorisation.

    Pretanic is more ancient than British and shouldn’t be confused.

    Huh? It’s the source of the word ‘British’ (and ‘cruthin’ too, by the way – Q-celt version)

  • congal claen

    “his collective term”

    meant “their collective term”.

  • congal claen

    Hi Stones,

    “So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish?

    You’ve finally got it!

    “So when you say someone named something you mean he didn’t name them. Right gotcha.”

    Yeah that’s exactly right! So, if someone says name the members of Westlife, you actually get to name them. FFS, just when you were making progress!

    “Eh no, Im not the person who says something, which once proven untrue, then says he actually meant something else FFS.”

    See above.

    “Ok, i’ll ask again, how by correcting the interviewer was Mr Jackson being dangerous and out of his depth?”

    Because he only had a bit of knowledge. Had the interviewer pressed him that could’ve been shown. BTW, before you go taking things out of context again, when I said dangerous I didn’t mean he was going to explode or something similar.

    “Ok so calling people British when they themselves say they are not is not disrespectful. Ok gotcha.”

    Again it’s context. This argument arose from some posters saying it was ridiculous that British troops should march through an Irish city – that they’re mutually exclusive terms. I’m pointing out that that isn’t the case.

    “Whose?”

    The Greeks who wrote the book.

  • congal claen,

    You’ve finally got it!

    Ah, nope, wrong. Most of the Irish people are not British, either legally, geographically, or in terms of their identity. That you call these islands ‘British’ doesn’t make it so. On the other hand, NI is Irish – Britain’s own constitution says so!

    The Greeks who wrote the book.

    The book is lost. Only remnants re-written hundreds of years later by a Roman survive. Hardly a trustworthy source. Also, I note you are unable to actually quote what the ‘book’ says. My latin is rusty, but don’t feel shy testing it.

  • congal claen

    Hi Horseman,

    “You’re basing yourself on myth, not history. The argument for Spain is entirely artificial, with zero evidence. [ref. O’Rahilly p. 195, ggn ;-))”

    You have a point. That long ago it’s hard to be sure. However, I don’t base that entirely on myth. For example, the hillforts found in and around where I’m from, built by the Gaels as offensive structures (militarily speaking), are of a form found in Spain. You also have the Barbary ape skull found at Navan. Then there’s the languge. Irish Gaelic is quite archaic so you’d expect it to be on the fringes. Spain is more on the fringe than Gaul.

    “What’s your point? Are ou arguing that they weren’t ‘celtic’, even tho language is actually the primary defining feature of that categorisation.”

    No. You said that the Q Celts came from Gaul. I’m querying that. I’m almost sure Gaul would’ve changed prior to Britain. As you already said The British Isles, including Ireland, were P Celtic prior to the arrival of the Q celtic Gaels.

    “Huh? It’s the source of the word ‘British’ (and ‘cruthin’ too, by the way – Q-celt version)”

    I think you’re wrong there too Horseman. Cruthin is indeed the Q celtic form of Priteni, a P celtic term. However, these islands were described as Pritenic before they were described as British. The Brits are a later arrival.

    BTW, open to correction on the above.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘You’ve finally got it!’

    Like I said, disrespectful, to put a label on people that they themselves would not choose.

    ‘Yeah that’s exactly right! So, if someone says name the members of Westlife, you actually get to name them. FFS, just when you were making progress!’

    No need to get angry just because you were wrong. BTW, aren’t you a bit old for wetlife?

    ‘Because he only had a bit of knowledge. Had the interviewer pressed him that could’ve been shown.’

    Eh, it seems you have confirmed his analysis that the british do indeed claim those that don’t belong to them. Well done.

    ‘that they’re mutually exclusive terms.’

    For some they’re not. But you seem to infer thats the case for everyone, thus once again confirming the attitude Mr Jackson was alluding to.

    ‘The Greeks who wrote the book.’

    Care to enlighten me?

  • congal claen,

    Your argument for Spain is laughably weak. Read O’Rahilly, then come back!

    You said that the Q Celts came from Gaul. I’m querying that.

    On the basis of … ? Again, do some reading.

    The Brits are a later arrival.

    The ‘Brits’ are not a people! They are a mixture of peoples. No ‘Brits’ (as such) ever arrived – the various peoples in Britain adopted that appellation, but it could just as easily have been Albion, or Anglia Magna, or something else.

  • congal claen

    Hi Horseman,

    “Ah, nope, wrong. Most of the Irish people are not British, either legally, geographically, or in terms of their identity.”

    I accept NI is Irish geographically and in terms of identity. Why wouldn’t I? Not politically though. The same applies to the RoI in terms of Britishness.

    “That you call these islands ‘British’ doesn’t make it so.”

    And therefore, that you don’t doesn’t mean that it isn’t. Do you want to do the Google search for “British Isles” versus “Great Britain and Ireland” as a guage of what most people call them?

    “On the other hand, NI is Irish – Britain’s own constitution says so!”

    Britain doesn’t have a constitution in the normal sense.

    “The book is lost. Only remnants re-written hundreds of years later by a Roman survive. Hardly a trustworthy source. Also, I note you are unable to actually quote what the ‘book’ says. My latin is rusty, but don’t feel shy testing it.”

    That’s why I was asking Stones – I don’t know what he called them.

  • congal claen

    Hi Stones,

    “No need to get angry just because you were wrong. BTW, aren’t you a bit old for wetlife?”

    Firstly, I wasn’t. Secondly, it was a joke. Keep yer knickers on ffs.

    “Eh, it seems you have confirmed his analysis that the british do indeed claim those that don’t belong to them. Well done.”

    For about the fifth time the term British or indeed Irish does not always convey ownership. When Kate says, “Yea! but he’s one of our own!” you would have to be a wee bit precious to jump to the conclusion you’ve jumped to. Comparing it to slavery is just a stupid comment by Jackson.

    ‘that they’re mutually exclusive terms.’

    “For some they’re not. But you seem to infer thats the case for everyone, thus once again confirming the attitude Mr Jackson was alluding to.”

    See above.

    “Care to enlighten me?”

    It was your point. I thought that would mean you’d be enlightening me. No? Anyhow, I was asking you what the collective term for these islands was in the book you mentioned – the Massaliot Periplus.

  • congal claen,

    Britain doesn’t have a constitution in the normal sense.

    It has a name, though? Remind yourself what it is.

  • congal claen

    Hi Horseman,

    “Your argument for Spain is laughably weak. Read O’Rahilly, then come back!”

    If so, you’ll have no problem pointing out the errors. It would also save me a loada reading.

    “On the basis of … ? Again, do some reading.”

    On the basis of p celtic speakers not usually reverting to q celtic. So, I was wondering how the Gauls could have been Q Celtic speakers at the time when Britain was already P celtic. The Britons just being across the sea from Gaul. How did the P celtic language jump to Britain and miss Gaul?

    “The ‘Brits’ are not a people! They are a mixture of peoples. No ‘Brits’ (as such) ever arrived – the various peoples in Britain adopted that appellation, but it could just as easily have been Albion, or Anglia Magna, or something else.”

    I don’t dispute what you say here. However, my point was that the term Briton did not derive from Preteni. Are you disputing that?

  • congal claen

    Hi Horseman,

    “It has a name, though? Remind yourself what it is.”

    The British Constitution is many documents, laws, etc. So, if you’ve some point to make here you’d be better coming out with it as I’m not seeing it.

    BTW, I’m near wrecked with this. You and Stones are like a tag team! I’ll look in again tomorrow. Have a good one.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Firstly, I wasn’t. Secondly, it was a joke. Keep yer knickers on ffs.’

    Firstly i know, secondly, so was I. Plus im rocking the oldschool y-fronts at the mo.

    ‘For about the fifth time the term British or indeed Irish does not always convey ownership.’

    I would agree to a point, it does not mean ownership. But it does sort of infer such, whether meant to or not. This is particularly true of uneducated sorts (see Brians new thread – ‘One for the true believers’). Im sure you’ll agree.

    ‘No? Anyhow, I was asking you what the collective term for these islands was in the book you mentioned – the Massaliot Periplus.’

    I hadn’t read that it contained a collective term. Just that it referenced the two Islands…perhaps Irene and Albion.

    Im bit a dizzy with this as well. All we seem to have learned is that I wear Y-fronts, and you like Westlife. I won’t tell if you don’t.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish”

    Well then folks, thank god we weren’t invaded by the Romans or indeed the Angles and Saxons as ‘Britain’ itself was, for it has kept our ancient ‘British’ blood here in Ireland somewhat purer! A few Norsemen and Normans wouldn’t have diluted the blood too much! Those English blow-ins, depriving us of our age old ‘British’ gaelic language and enforcing the rule of their whimsical foreign English kings and queens over us!
    Let’s take back Britain then for the Irish, the last of the true ‘Britons’! Starting with Kilburn, let the Irish tribes reclaim it for the last bastion of ancient ‘Britain’, Ireland!

    ….ahem!

    🙂

    Anyway, all we requested was Home Rule, to look after our own affairs and govern ourselves here in Ireland!

    But really, Coz Pliny and who ever else described us all as belonging to the ‘British Isles’ thousand of years ago it does’t mean (nor never did) that it gives the automatic right for London to govern us all today here in Ireland or within these islands!
    I bet had Iceland been a bit nearer to these shores at the time of early nautical navigation, I’m sure Pliny would have included it as part of ‘the British Isles’

  • All Honey

    British not Irish,
    Irish not British,
    and always twirling twirling towards freedom