Who is threatening violence?

With the Parades Commission delaying a ruling on the British military parade through Belfast, now to include a bomber and fighter fly past [of course it isn’t military triumphalism- ed], and the Sinn Féin counter-demonstration. Unionist politicians have been raising the spectre of associated violence if either SF or éirígí are allowed to protest while both have responded with their intentions to hold peaceful protests (eirigi statement, not online as yet, is below the fold). So just who is going to kick off these violent incidents?

éirígí Defends the Right to Protest
________________________________________
éirígí spokesperson Seán MacBrádaigh has said that unionist scaremongering
around next week’s demonstration against the British military parade in Belfast
city centre undermines the right to peaceful protest.

Seán said: “Much has been made of the fact that éirígí has not applied to the
Parades Commission in the Six Counties for permission to hold a demonstration.

“It would be ludicrous for an Irish republican organisation to apply to the
British occupying authorities for permission to protest against the British
occupation.”

“The Irish people’s right to oppose the British occupation of Ireland is a
fundamental right that cannot be left to the whims of a British Government
appointed commission to adjudicate upon.”

Seán continued: “Certain unionist politicians have also irresponsibly raised the
spectre of violence in Belfast on Sunday week. This is a reprehensible tactic
that is deliberately intended to undermine the right of the nationalist
population of Belfast to engage in peaceful protest.

“It is ironic that the same politicians who invited one of the most vicious regiments
in the British army to coat-trail through the streets of Belfast are now
attributing the threat of violence to those who are committed to peaceful
protest.

“How did unionist politicians think nationalist Belfast was going to react once
it was announced that the RIR, an organisation that terrorised nationalist
communities for years, was going to be paraded through our city centre?

“How did unionist politicians think that the tens of thousands of people who
marched through Belfast city centre to oppose Britain’s imperialist wars would
react once it was announced that the RIR, the Royal Air Force and the Royal
Navy were to walk through those same streets?”

Seán concluded: “In a further insult, it was announced today that two RAF bomber
jets and three military helicopters are expected to stage a flyover during this
already provocative parade. It now appears that the British government are
intent on a provocative and triumphalist display of British military might on
the doorsteps of tens of thousands of Irish republicans and nationalists.

“Unionism needs to get real – it is the British army and their supporters who will
be bringing the weapons of war into Belfast city centre on November 2, not
Irish republicans.

“We are calling on all republicans, socialists and democrats to join us on
November 2 to expose the violent ones as those wearing the uniform of British
imperialism.”

  • Aye

    So just who is going to kick off these violent incidents?

    Those nutters burning buses and cars in Craigavon tonight 🙂

  • cynic

    Surely not?

  • lorraine

    weel Aye, judging from what peopel are saying it would appear the only ones employing the language of violence are the unionists.

    the parade could have been arranged less provocatively; i would have no problem with a welcome home parade per se, but marching what is to me a sectarian murder gang through my streets is wrong.

  • cynic

    “It would be ludicrous for an Irish republican organisation to apply to the
    British occupying authorities for permission to protest against the British
    occupation.”

    ….good…then we can reply upon PSNI and the PPS to prosecute them for breaching the laws of the state

    ” the tens of thousands of people ”

    …. getting a bit carried away arent we. Two phone boxes might do it.

    “It now appears that the British government are
    intent on a provocative and triumphalist display of British military might ”

    …. its a military parade

  • cynic

    “marching what is to me a sectarian murder gang through my streets is wrong”

    …..putting what is to me a sectarian murder gang into Government is wrong too but we all have to put up with it.

    Shall we do a trade then …. no parade and no SF in Government?

  • lorraine

    agreed cynic, cause in government sinn fein are a bunch of wankers who stabbed the classroom assistants in the back for mercs and perks, and are more interested with embedding themselves with their new class than in furthering equality!

  • Dewi

    “Shall we do a trade then …. no parade and no SF in Government? ”

    You haven’t got a Government.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    There’s an Orange portion on the Irish Republican flag. It represents the British people of Ireland. According to the size and proportions of the colours on the Irish flag, the British people of Ireland are entitled to have a say and equal rights in a Democratic Irish Republic. Like it or not, there is a strong history of Irish people serving in the British army. The British people of Ireland today strongly identify with this and the RIR troops who served in the Middle East. They wish to have a parade to honour their troops. They should be allowed to do so. The protest is rediculous. If it ends up in a melee and riot it will be shamefull and embarrasing. Eirigi/SF are using the lowest common denominator for a protest. A ‘United Ireland’, what Eirigi/SF believe in, entails the British people expressing their culture (as like the 12th July, etc…). This is part of their culture. It should be respected, whether people agree with it or not! Eirigi/SF don’t understand Democratic Republican principles, or in this case, compromise!

  • Driftwood

    Greagoir
    It’s got frig all to do with 12th July.
    It’s for families welcoming home a regiment (whatever you think of their masters sentiments) coming home. After a shit time abroad. Hopefully only the Citizen Smith (eirigi) blue baggers will protest, if they get up in time, and the soldiers will be welcomed. The following day noone will know they were ever there. Any protest is going to look absurd. In which case I hope SF gather up the Tennents Super brigade for the worlds cameras to see.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

    For Erigi and SF folk the above extract is taken from the 1916 Proclamation. The 1916 Proclamation is the bedrock of modern Irish Republicanism. The sentence taken from the 1916 Proclamation above guarantees and respects the rights and culture of British people in Ireland! Whether one likes it or not British Unionists views and opinions should be respected. To ignore the meaning of the above sentence is to ignore the meaning of Irish Republicanism which is all encompassing!

  • LURIG

    Driftwood

    What nonsense! Are you saying there are no blue bag brigades and Tennents Super gulpers on July 12th? Obviously you’ve been on a Desert Island these past few decades. If the RIR want to parade fair enough but let them do it in their English garrisons and barracks. Like EVERYTHING to do with the British military this parade will be taken over by Unionist/Loyalist extremists who will follow it the entire way with Union Jacks, 6 County Ulster flags, paramilitary emblems etc. We see it with Remembrance Sunday and the Poppy. I know Catholic Ex-Servicemen who send money to the British Legion in mainland Britain but who have no time for the way it has been hijacked here. To watch UDA/UVF terrorists lay wreaths at the City Hall is horrendous. Unionist politicians would like nothing better than to see a riot and protestors beaten off the streets. If the Parades Commission allows the RIR to march and bans a protest it will send a very negative message to Nationalists/Republicans AND anyone opposed to the illegal Wars in the Middle East.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    While I don’t have any evidence myself – apart from a few personal observations when riots were more common – I do wonder if there is any correlation between a prediction of violence and violence actually happening.

    Violence which would be utterly pointless, from whatever source.

  • Harry Flashman

    “There’s an Orange portion on the Irish Republican flag.”

    Don’t bother Greg, trying to explain to some “republican” posters on Slugger what the right hand third of the flag to which they owe allegiance signifies is an utterly lost cause; they simply don’t want to know.

  • USA

    Harry Sashman,
    I have no doubt republican posters are fully aware of the significance of orange in the national flag.

  • USA

    Greagoir,
    AFAIK Eirigi are an organization that are opposed to the line SF have taken in recent years. You should probably double check before you start trying to link them with SF.

  • Harry Flashman

    “I have no doubt republican posters are fully aware of the significance of orange in the national flag.”

    Then you would be wrong, I have debated the issue with them many times and I know what an extraordinary proportion of soi-disant republicans fail to grasp the meaning of the Orange bit on the flag they insist on sellotaping to lampposts.

    Just read this from Kevin Myers’ article today:

    “The Provisional IRA has largely disarmed, though it prides itself on being an undefeated army: yet here the Shinners will see the British army marching through the streets of Belfast, thereby reminding people what an undefeated army really looks like, and worse, how utterly pointless the IRA war really was.”

    Ouch.

  • Sneakers O’Toole

    Greagoir O’ Frainclin’s hit the nail on the head. I’m no fan of the RIR or what they’ve been up to in the past and even less a fan of the allies’ adventures in the Middle East but republicans should realise a million Irish people identify with Britain, and should respect that.

    Jesus, turn a blind eye for one day at least… There’s plenty of mothers in Belfast will just be glad to see their sons home alive.

    Is SF involved in this… I’d be surprised if they were. It’s be at odds with Maskey’s laying a wreath at the cenotaph a few years ago.

  • fin

    Greagoir and Flashman, the makeup of the Irish flag: the Orange is in no why recognition of GB, it is a representation of the Orange\Protestant tradition\culture, ie green for the Gaels, orange for the Orange and white for peace and unity between both traditions on the island of Ireland.

    To this end the flag has no relevance to anyone who does not consider themselves Irish, ie the orange strip is not comparable to the cross of St Patrick in the union flag (and yes I’m fully aware that the cross of St Patrick is a relative modern british invention, with no actual connection to the Irish people)

  • runciter

    They wish to have a parade to honour their troops. They should be allowed to do so. The protest is rediculous.

    Why is the parade reasonable and the protest ridiculous?

    Is protest in general ridiculous? Or just protest at the British Army’s presence in Ireland?

    Furthermore, surely both groups are entitled to publically express their opinions. Otherwise, you have a strange idea of equality.

    Also, the orange in the flag represents protestantism, not britishness.

  • Blue Rinse Brigade

    What a complete and utter shambolic mess…

    As I said in a posting before, people losing jobs, economy on its arse, businesses going bust and Northern Ireland goes completley bananas over…parades.

    I’m filled with such pride.

  • autocue

    Peter Robinson was actually spot on in what he said. In light of the fact that these knuckle-draggers in Eirigi have shown no compunction about attacking fellow-Republicans, I think the biggest risk lies in one set of Republicans beating seven shades of you know what out of another set of Republicans. Sinn Fein could end up with egg all over their face if they don’t back down on this one.

  • autocue

    “The Irish people’s right to oppose the British occupation of Ireland is a
    fundamental right that cannot be left to the whims of a British Government
    appointed commission to adjudicate upon”

    Presumably then Brendan McKenna won’t be anywhere near the Parades Commission come next July?

  • RepublicanStones

    Tell me somebody didn’t quote the Aremenian holocaust denier and lover of empire Kevin Myers???? The man could wangle a way to slag off republicans even if he started an article about genetically modified crops.

  • “It now appears that the British government are
    intent on a provocative and triumphalist display of British military might on
    the doorsteps of tens of thousands of Irish republicans and nationalists.”

    hardly on the ‘door steps’ and hardly a display of military might…

    shared space anyone???? or is it invitation only?

    if soldiers who come from northern ireland can’t be simply ‘welcome’ on the street – then we’ll never move on…

    these are ‘real’ soldiers who aren’t hiding in the hedge in afghanistan or wearing balaclavas or putting bombs under people’s cars, or leaving bodies in bags in ditches….

    yes these guys are actual ‘soldiers’ doing a job – recognisable as soldiers not afraid to be recognisable as soldiers.

  • ??

    what is to me a sectarian murder gang through my streets is wrong.
    Posted by lorraine on Oct 22, 2008 @ 11:39 PM

    ……. When is the SF parade then?

  • ??

    “The Irish people’s right to oppose the British occupation of Ireland is a
    fundamental right that cannot be left to the whims of a British Government
    appointed commission to adjudicate upon”

    I checked RTE and the Irish Government arent opposing British Rule in Northern Ireland, in fact they agree with it and support it if you look at the GFA and STA.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Also, the orange in the flag represents protestantism, not britishness.”

    Indeed Runciter, but Irish Orangeism and it’s relationship with the Protestant faith etc… is associated with British Unionist culture in Ireland. The troops marching are RIR Irish troops of the British army. They’ve had a similar parade in Cardiff recently.

    Can folk just not see reason and let the NI British Unionist people celebrate the homecoming of their troops just for a few hours of the day!

    It is the likes of this protest that disgruntles Unionists and further hinders any notion of reconciliation or unity!

  • fin

    Greagoir, your understanding of who is represented by the orange bit on the Irish flag is still a bit off, let me put it simply, the Irish flag is only representive of people who pledge their allegiance to it, you cannot claim allegiance to a non Irish government or monarch as I believe the term “NI british unionist” would imply and still claim representation on the Irish flag, unless, I suppose you claim dual nationality, are you claiming dual nationality for the grouping you term “NI British unionist” in which case I believe the term would be Anglo-Irish.

  • Harry Flashman

    Runciter and fin, surely the Orange represents what the people who define themselves as Orangemen say it does?

    If you merely wished to represent “protestants” on your flag (what sort of protestants? The nice Church of Ireland ladies living in Howth?) you could perhaps have chosen St Patrick’s Blue to represent them, if you meant the people who owe allegiance to the English crown you might have chosen Imperial Purple or maybe you meant the people of Ulster then the obvious colour would be Ulster Red, but no, the colour chosen was the colour by which militant, protestant, loyalists designated themselves; Orange.

    In Irish political and historical terms Orange means only one thing; Orangeism.

    If you give equal space to the Orange on your banner you are saying that militant, protestant loyalism is an equally acceptable tradition in the Irish Republic and Orangeism is as valid as Irish nationalism.

    If that is not what you mean then have the decency to take the Orangemen’s colour of your flag.

    After all it is their colour, they had it first.

    (Note for USA: see, they don’t understand what the Orange colour on their flag means)

  • Neil

    I’m glad there’s a protest, I think it;s right that there should be one. I understand that many mothers will be glad to have their kids back in one piece. They are soldiers who went to fight and they came back ok.

    Pity the same couldn’t be said for the 20 – 80 thousand CIVILIANS who died at the hands of the coalition in Afghanistan. Allow me to stress the point, these weren’t soldiers the 20 – 80k people, they were civilians, kids, women. Compare that with the less than 1000 coalition troops who lost their lives.

    1000 troops for 20,000 women, kids and civilian men? Kinda like shootin’ fish in a barrell. The war was and is wrong. You can tell me I’m sectarian etc. but that’s bollocks. Thousands of well equipped men with guns and rockets and tanks have been sent off to butchers tens of thousands of civilians, and we are supposed to show our gratitude? Jesus wept.

    Individual soldiers are not responsible for the orders they are given, but the war is evil. It has seen the deaths of far too many innocents, and I, as a Socialist, as a Republican have the right to express my continued disgust at this ‘war’.

  • Blue Rinse Brigade

    Oh good, an argument about what a flag means…

    Wonders never cease.

  • fin

    Flashman, I think you’ll find the netherlands had the colour first, in the context to which you refer.

    However, as with the wheel no-one has a patent on the colour orange.

    The Irish flag,as I’ve stated before, is only representative to those who swear allegiance to it.
    The Orange is representative of the orange culture, the anglo culture or the protestant culture, or indeed however you want to define that particular part of the community which is part of the Irish state and in turn swears its allegance to that flag.

    There are many references to Ireland on royal crests and the union flag, however it doesn’t bother me as I don’t consider them representative of Ireland or myself – the harp, St Patricks blue, even the disputed St Patricks cross\flag etc- because my all allegiances lie elsewhere.

    Hope this clears things up for you.

  • Harry Flashman

    The Dutch took it from the French province of Orange which was King William’s patrimony, in Irish political and historical terms Orange means one thing and one thing only: militant, protestant loyalism.

    Orange does not mean generalised Irish protestantism, it does not mean Anglo-Irishry, it means militant, protestant loyalism.

    If you cannot accept this fact or you wish protestants in Ireland were something other than they actually are well that’s fine but it’s a bit hypocritical to take the colour of militant, protestant loyalism and stick it on your flag and then pretend it means something other than what it actually is.

    Orange means Orange, if you don’t like ’em that’s no problem, just don’t take their colour and put it on your flag.

    Rather obvious I’d have thought.

  • SeanOg

    Yes Lorraine….what time does that parade of asectarian murder gang kick off. Is from Sinn Fein HQ or nearer the city centre….

    Please advise…I don’t want to miss it…..ok babe

  • fin

    Harry as before.

    That segment on the flag refers solely to citizens whose allegiance is to the Irish flag.

    Your arguement is in the context of people who wish not to be represented by the Irish flag, but you represent their grievance as if they are.

    have cake, eat cake, still have cake?

  • Harry Flashman

    No it doesn’t fin, I’ll try to work this through with you nice and simply, the Orange colour on the Irish flag refers to whom it refers; the Orange on the flag refers to the Orangemen, otherwise they wouldn’t have chosen Orange now would they?

    It either refers to the Orange tradition or it does not, if it doesn’t represent Orangeism what the feck is the Orange colour doing on the bleedin’ flag? If you meant some form of anodyne, generic, non-threatening type of wishy-washy Irish protestantism then you shouldn’t have chosen the one colour associated with in-yer-face, aggressive, militant, no surrender style protestant loyalism should you?

    You can tie yourself in knots all you want trying to semantically wriggle your way out of saying that the Orange colour on an Irish flag represents something diametrically opposed to what the Orange colour actually represents in Irish society, but frankly you end up sounding like a bit of an eejit.

    If yez didn’t mean the Orangies when you stuck their Orange colour on your flag why did you stick their Orange colour on your flag?

  • DK

    The Irish flag is supposed to be the Green and Orange tradtions coming together in peace – the white bit. Much like how the Union flag has the English, Scottish and Irish traditions represented as equals within the union. Both are idealistic flags – and both can be construed as one tradtion trying to usurp the other.

    It’s like the EU flag with all those nice equal stars on it, but Germany and Luxemburg are no equals in reality.

  • Harry Flashman

    Just to be of some assistance to any Catholic Nationalists who don’t actually understand what being an Irish Republican actually means can I quote you something from a man who knew a little bit about what being an Irish Republican actually meant:

    “I am glad that the Orangemen are armed, for it is a goodly thing to see arms in Irish hands…”

    Did Padraig Pearse mean that it was good that Mildred and Hester Sweetnam of the Donnybrook Woman’s Institute have guns? No he meant the Orangemen, not some mythologised “nice” protestants but the actual bigoted, militant, protestant loyalists whom he recognised as fellow citizens of the Irish Republic [b]whether they themselves chose to do so or not[/b] and whose Orange colour on his national flag he fought and died for.

    True Irish Republicans know this, they might not like the Orangies, they might actually loathe and revile Orangeism on a personal level but as Irish Republicans they accept the Orangemen and their Orange tradition as part of the nation of Ireland, hence their Orange colour is given equal prominence on the flag of the Irish Republic.

    If you fail to understand that simple concept you fail entirely to understand the concept of Irish Republicanism and perhaps you need to redefine yourself as a Irish Catholic nationalist.

  • fin

    Harry, in your own words….

    “what the Orange colour actually represents in Irish society”

    This is what I’ve been trying to explain to you, its about representing people from that culture BUT specifically in IRISH SOCIETY (or more correct Irish passport holders), within the Irish state, people from that culture whose alliegance is to the Irish flag.

    IT IS NOT representative of anyone outside of IRISH SOCIETY It does not refer to people who are british subjects, or members of the orange order around the world.

    You are almost there think IRISH SOCIETY, think Irish nationals, if you are an Irish national from a anglo\protestant\orange culture the orange bit is representative of you.

    Harry, look at it like this, the flag of the united states of america, represents americans who are citizens of the usa, americans who are canadians, mexicans etc although americans are not included. Similarily citizens from a anglo\protestant\orange culture are not automatically represented by the Irish flag UNLESS they are Irish citizens.

  • SDLP Falls

    It is welcome to see the Andersonstown news supporting the SDLP’s position on the counterdemonstartion being proposed by SF against the British army homecoming parade.

    After SDLP Assemblyman Alex Attwood said on 22 October 2008 :
    “Our view in the SDLP is that this is one occasion where people should think again about having a protest.But those who want to protest, while they have that right, must not in any way impede the parade.

    The Andersonstownnews editorial today 23 October 2008 stated “When nationalists won the right … to protest for civil rights in Belfast city centre, it was never the intention to deny anyone else the same right. That means that nationalists, no matter how upset at the heroes welcome being five to one of the most discredited regiments in the British Army, must tolerate and make space for this welcoem home rally.”

    It also stated that “Even at this late stage….would it not be of more benefit … if the anti-war protest was moved to another day?”

    This is a very welcome editorial by AN

    SDLP Falls

  • Harry Flashman

    No fin you don’t get it.

    Irish Republicans accept Orangemen as fellow citizens of the Irish Republic [b]even if those Orangemen reject such citizenship[/b].

    It’s really very simple, you’re making it very complicated for yourself; Irish Republicanism means that all Irishmen and women are equal and valued citizens of the Irish Republic even if some of those Irish people do not themselves give allegiance to the Irish Republic.

    Read the Proclamation of the Irish Republic

    [i]The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, [b]cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past[/b].[/i]

    In other words Irish Republicans will keep on asserting that Orangemen are citizens of the Irish Republic even if the Orangemen themselves (due, in Republican theory, to the influence of a foreign government) reject such citizenship, hence the Orangies get to have an equal part of the nation’s flag.

    Nowhere does it say that the Orangemen will be entitled to equal citizenship of the Irish Republic once they stop being Orangemen, on the contrary the Orangemen are valued citizens of the Irish Republic whether they themselves like it or not, that’s why they get a special place on the flag of Ireland.

    Hope this clears up any remaining difficulties you have about understanding the Orange bit on the flag of the Republic of Ireland

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “This is what I’ve been trying to explain to you, its about representing people from that culture BUT specifically in IRISH SOCIETY (or more correct Irish passport holders), within the Irish state, people from that culture whose alliegance is to the Irish flag.

    IT IS NOT representative of anyone outside of IRISH SOCIETY It does not refer to people who are british subjects, or members of the orange order around the world.”

    FIN, Using your argument, then how many Orangemen do you think hold an Irish passport? I don’t think there are many!
    Do you think that there are Orangemen who desire to be a part of the Irish nation? I don’t think there are many!
    The tri-colour flag that “republicans” wave and flaunt is a meaningless symbol then for the Orange may as well not be there!

    The Orange on the Irish flag as Harry says represents the Militant Protestant Loyal Unionists. True Irish Republicans recognize this!

    Hence the need to heed and respect their traditions, values etc…whether one likes it or not! The essence of Irish Republicanism is all encompassing, all embracing of all the people on this island!

  • fin

    Harry and Greagoir,
    We are going backwards here, in every post I used the terms Orange tradition, culture, Anglo-Irish and Protestant, never OO. Its a description of a sizable number of the citizens of Ireland.

    been a member of the OO does not automatically qualify anyone for an Irish passport

    if you are not an Irish citizen or reject Irish citizenship you forfeit the right to influence the Irish state and anything pertaining to it.

    Finally Greagoir, a rough estimate of the number of people from a orange/anglo-irish/protestant cultural background who hold irish passports can be found in the last census, not sure how many but quite a few. They exist in all walks of life, the first Irish President been one example, but also lots from the border area where I grew up including my local TD, and a lot of my mates.

    The orange segment relates to them and them only. Not to people who share a similar cultural background but are canadian or UK (or whatever) citizens, but only them, they meet the criteria Irish citizens and orange/anglo-irish/protestant culture.

  • USA

    Back to the point.
    It would seem to me that Eirigi take their lead from James Connolly and left wing revolutionalry politics more associated with the the old IRSP and others in the past. This group is not controlled by Sinn Fein, they are another group within the wider Irish Republican “family”. Kinda like Willie Frazer and his psuedo human rights group was / is another group within the Unionist community. Having said that, I would suspect that Eirigi are better organised and have more supporters than “wee Willie”, and I also expect SF have less influence over eirigi than say the DUP would have over the actions of wee willie.
    But SF will ignore the “noise” and claims of SF involvement, watch what happens and act accordingly.
    SF have already offered the olive branch by placing wreaths in a discreet manner at British War Memorials etc.
    To SF this parade issue is somewhat of a side show, and they while they will make their opposition clear I don’t think they will be getting involved in organizing protests etc.
    Is this really too difficult for some people to understand? Were you born stupid or do you have to work at it?

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    So Fin, are you talking about a 26 county Republic or a 32 county Republic?

    Initially the flag was devised for a 32 county Republic!

    Regarding the people of a Protestant cultural background and Anglo-Irish background who hold Irish passports, the Green of the Irish flag may as well represent them as well. The Green symbolizes all Nationalists, both Catholic and Protestant and whatever. I’m sure such Protestant folk of the south wouldn’t be too enthusiastic about the annual Orange demonstrations up north. Hence ye don’t see them flocking to the north in droves each year!

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “SF have already offered the olive branch by placing wreaths in a discreet manner at British War Memorials etc.”

    …and it is the likes of these gestures by Irish Republicans that are what’s needed to endorse their own true Republican convictions of a 32 county Ireland with respect for all traditions on the island, including the British traditions of the NI people!

    BTW USA , yes, we do understand!

  • Harry Flashman

    Oh dear fin you still don’t seem to understand do you? You think “Orange” refers to nice Irish protestants who have already accepted their Irish citizenship.

    It doesn’t, and no amount of repeating that assertion will make it so.

    The Orange tradition is not the tradition of protestant Irish nationalism, trust me it just isn’t, protestant Irish nationalists have long been a feature of Irish history and politics, but they ain’t represented by the big broad Orange stripe on the flag of Ireland.

    Tone, Emmet, Parnell and Hyde are already catered for in the green bit, that was their choice and welcome they are but the entire ethos of Irish Republicanism revolved around the fact that the Orangies; the blue nosed, bigoted, hun, proddy, loyalists that lived up in the god forsaken Black North were also citizens of the Irish Republic, whether (and I pause at the fact that I have to repeat such a simple fact of Irish Republicanism again) they accepted they were Irish citizens or not.

    Now you may well try to create a completely new theory which changes the quite obvious Orange tradition into a sort of mild, respectable, “Anglo-Irish” (whatever the fuck that means), vaguely nationalist, rather milk and water version of Irish protestantism, you know the sort that wears sheepskin coats and cheers on “Oirland” at the Six Nations in Landsdowne Road but, and again you’ll have to trust me in this, those people sure as hell aren’t what that big broad Orange, once more for emphasis [b]Orange[/b], stripe on the flag is about.

    What is so difficult for you to understand about such a fundamental aspect of Irish Republicanism?

    USA, see what I mean?

  • runciter

    Orangies; the blue nosed, bigoted, hun, proddy, loyalists

    Calm down, Harry.

  • fin

    Gregoir, Harry, I give up you guys are either 14 or on drugs or both

  • cynic

    Isnt there a bit of revisionism here.

    When the flag was decided wasnt the future of the border still uncertain? The Boundary Commission hadnt decided and there was a view that it was temporary anyway.

    Even if you look at it from the 26 county perspective, when the Irish Free State was formed werent 20% + of the population protestant? So there was a big Irish protestant component in the Republic – until they were forced out.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Wolfe Tone & co as well as Thomas Francis Meagher are all rolling in their graves with dismay!

  • Harry Flashman

    You can’t win an argument so you dismiss me as either an immature fool or on drugs, despite the fact that I provide you with chapter and verse the relevant quotes of Irish Republicanism explaining who they meant when they put the orange bit on their flag and it turns out they meant, to no-one’s particular surprise, the Orange people.

    Amazing.

    Any other arguments you want to lose?

    USA? Are you reading this?

  • Comrade Stalin

    There is a time for “live and let live”, and this is one of them. I’m not a keen supporter of the British army or the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but I do recognize the concepts of duty and service. Republicans recognize those concepts as well, as they regularly hold parades, sometimes even with masked men, even though they are well aware of the offence and hurt that this could cause.

    People here need to have a long hard think about the rights of protest, and the rights of assembly, and they need to decide whether they apply across the board, rather than selectively. Among the people who are supporting this parade are people who opposed the gay rights parade, and presumably one or two of the people who took part in a demonstration against the gay rights parade, against a background of a series of violent assaults on gay people. On the republican side, it can’t be ignored that there have been demonstrations and marches that celebrate illegal killers – especially that of the guy who tried to blow up a furniture shop, who subsequently became an MP and died while on hunger strike. If the British army are abhorrent to people in Ireland, where do the IRA come in ?

    Eirigi in this case are once again attempting to agitate and gain attention for themselves. I hope that there are cameras running and that people will have the sense to leave them in peace to get on with their little stunt. They’re spoiling for a riot, and the last thing that anyone wants to do is give them one.

  • Yvette Doll

    Gay Pride 08 Belfast, I was offended. It brought with it the aspects of McCarthyism.

    In this existence, I will protest anything which has the GLF, Outrage!, COC/PNVD or IPCE attached to it. I protest all U16 activism in relation to gay parades around the world.

    I oppose all parades linked to Outrage!. That goes for San Diego, Riga, Belfast, if Outrage! is there, or officiating, that gay parade should be banned by the authorities.

    Does every Communist have to be good? Or can there be bad Communists?

    Yvette Doll

  • Westie

    autocue,

    Tell me this, where and when has eirigi attacked anyone never mind other republicans?

  • fido

    It is clear, from having heard little else talked about on the Shankill and Shore Road in the past week, that there is going to be an ENORMOUS crowd to welcome the troops. The Shinners should defuse this and cancel their parade, or restrict it to the West.
    Anyone with half a brain can see where this is going. Do they really want to risk blowing it all apart over this? That’ll look great in the States.