‘[They] got what they deserved.’

” Very good. Feel these people got what they deserved. They weren’t saints.” Ballymoney DUP councillor, Ian Stevenson, has courted controversy by leaving the above comment in the Guest Book of Kilmainham Jail following a visit to the prison as part of a Good Relations tour organised by several local councils, a trip which included visits to the Battle of the Boyne site and Glasnevin Cemetery and was aimed at developing better relations. Clearly this junket was a success then…

  • RepublicanStones

    What else would one expect?

    It makes you think, are there actually some unionists out there who still believe that Britain should be occupying the whole of Ireland?

  • Cahal

    DUPer is a bigot.

    Cow shits in a field.

    Zzzzzzzz.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Ah sure it was expected!

    But what else from a DUP councillor.

    Hardly gonna get words of sympathy or compliments for the informtive tour!

    …..and sure who cares!

  • This is the kind of thing that happens when you take the rednecks to the big smoke. The tragic thing is that such stunts are great for getting you re-elected in Northern Ireland. Well done, Nurse. Let the whataboutery begin.

    Next week: Martin Ferris visits Fernhill House

  • joeCanuck

    Following the link, it appears that the councillor isn’t prepared to stand by his ill-considered remarks.

  • Turgon

    It is pretty rare for me to comment on one of Mr. Donnelly’s threads. However, here goes.

    I knew Ian Stevenson at school and he was an utterly upright, decent, Christian bloke and I would have counted him a friend.

    Many years later when I was going into a UUC meeting I remember being confronted by a group of DUP supporters which included Ian. The others were jeering me (and everyone else) but Ian said: No he is on our side (ie anti Trimble) say nothing against him. In my view he is a gentleman: he was willing to tell his friends not to jeer someone with no benefit to himself.

    In light of that I am particularly disappointed by these comments. I am opposed to the death penalty and although I agree that those in that gaol were “No angels” and did deserve to be in gaol, I do not think they should have been killed. It is just possible that had they not been killed Irish history might have been different.

    Even if one supports the death penalty, I think to write what he did in that context was a little impolite. Courtesy alone would mitigate against it. I wish Ian had not done so: it is unlike the man I knew.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Johnny & Greagoir
    Actually, I think we can and should expect more, not least because the entire point of the trip was to develop better understanding of the ‘other side’s’ culture.

    Cllr Stevenson would have known this, would certainly have known the itinerary, and decided to attend. And then he produces this.

    Regarding Ferris at Fernhill House, I doubt he has attended to date, but I wouldn’t be surprised if other republicans have done so. Indeed it’s very likely they’ve attended many sites of importance to unionists in either a personal or political capacity.

  • TAFKABO

    Hang on a minute, what’s the point of the book if not for people to record their comments?
    Isn’t his opinion as valid as anyone else’s? or are only the opinions we agree with the ones that should be permitted?

    By the way, I absolutely disagree with what he said.

  • Ann

    It’s a despicable comment to make, says a lot about the person who wrote it. It amounts to nothing more than a gimmick. in order to get some attention.

  • joeCanuck

    TAFKABO

    Of course he is entitled to record his opinion. It’s just that it was very insensitive, in my opinion.

  • DC

    As I said before this local leadership is too local for good leadership and perhaps good relations.

    Ethno-political games and associated point scoring is the way to get into power not responsible politics with admirable vision.

  • RepublicanStones

    TAF as it seems you’ve never taken the tour you should at least know its carried out in a manner of reverence and respect for the sacrifice of the men and women of 1916. Everyone may hold a personal opinion, but if you don’t like it, why even bother taking the tour knowing full well the context in which it is delivered. I suppose you would have no problem with someone who disagreed with the Vietnam war writing something similar on the Vet wall guestbook in Washington?

  • TAFKABO

    As a matter of fact I have taken the tour, though not being a mindreader I cannot say in all honesty that everyone else there was in a spirit of reverence, it struck me as an historical tour of a place of historic importance, no more, no less.
    Perhaps more information ought to be given to those who visit that they are expected to revere the men who were executed?

  • RepublicanStones

    So the fact the tour is in the capital of a country which holds an annual commemoration for the event in REVERENCE of it each year and which has streets named in their honour and military barracks etc etc etc…didn’t give you even a teeny weeny ickle little clue?
    I’ll take that as a yes regarding the Vet Wall question shall I?

  • McGrath

    If the objective was to achieve an exchange of cultures, then Mr Stevenson succeeded, and quite effectively.

    I wonder where, as a DUP councillor his stance is on abortion, considering he is OK with the death penalty?

  • TAFKABO

    Republicanstones.

    The fact that we have have two communties which have spent the better part of the last century beating all shades of shite out of each other didn’t give you any clue that there may be a difference of opinion on some issues?

    Do you honestly live in a world where only one viewpoint is permitted?
    As for the Vietnam veteran question, I always thought the great thing about America was the right to free speech.
    We don’t have a right to free speech because people want to say stuff we agree with, we have it so they can say stuff we may not want to hear.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Do you honestly live in a world where only one viewpoint is permitted?’

    Taf it seems you missed the post where i said…

    ‘Everyone may hold a personal opinion, but if you don’t like it, why even bother taking the tour knowing full well the context in which it is delivered.’

    Oh and Taf, the conflict is a bit longer than the better part of the last century. Also your reference to the free speech in America didn’t answer my question. ‘They got what they deserved’ would it be fine for you if somebody were to write this on the Vet wall guestbook or would you think it inappropriate?

  • TAFKABO

    Thanks for telling someone who grew up in Northern Ireland how long the conflict’s being going on. You should note that I defined the last century as a period when two communities spent the better part knocking the shite out of each other.
    As for why someone might take the tour, I dare say there’s a few that take it just to see where some people “got what they deserved”
    As to your continued question about america, I have to confess I couldn’t really give enough of a toss to form an opinion one way or the other.

  • RepublicanStones

    Well Taf take it from someone who grew up in the north of Ireland, the conflict goes back longer than partition and the creation of your ‘Rhodesia’.
    It seems you won’t answer the question as to wether its inappropriate or not. Im sure there are some bitter little idiots who take the tour probably thinking London should still be ruling all of Ireland, but do they write stupid stuff in the book and moreover are they community representatives, is the question. Considering Cllr Stevenson’s lack of zealousness in defending his authorship perhaps he himself thinks it was inappropriate, something you seem to deny.

    Oíche mhaith.

  • TAFKABO

    Could you be any more patronising?

    Listen mo chara, I said in my first post that I absolutely disagreed with his comment but I have to confess that when I read totalitarian shite about everyone having to hold reverence (you even typed it in caps, a sure sign of religious fervour and zealotry if ever there was one) for those who died it kinda makes me wish I was back there at the visitors book with a pen in my hand.

  • Crow

    Oddly, I suppose if they didn’t get “what they deserved” there may have been no populist backlash, no war of independence, no anglo-irish treaty, and no partition. So you can see councillor Stevenson’s point….

  • McGrath

    it seems you’ve never taken the tour you should at least know its carried out in a manner of reverence and respect for the sacrifice of the men and women of 1916

    Posted by RepublicanStones on Sep 28, 2008 @ 12:10 AM

    I was able to visit the place with a viewpoint to gaining a better grasp of history. But as TAF is suggesting, was is necessary for me to treat it as a shrine? While I didn’t leave a comment to the effect of “your history sucks”, neither did I regard it as a pilgrimage, and why should anyone else?

  • RepublicanStones

    TAF the issue is not wether you disagree with him or not, its wether you think it was inappropriate to write such a snide remark? Cleary now Cllr Stevenson in hindsight think perhaps it was. You however do not.

    McGrath nobody said you had to treat it like a shrine or a pilgrimage however anyone bothering to take the tour must already know they are the founding fathers of the State, respected in the south in the same manner Washington et al are in the USA. Now if you thinks its appropriate to take tours concerning the last days of a states founding fathers and write ‘They got what they deserved’ in the guestbook you and I have a different idea of what decorum is. Perhaps its just cause its the scummy Irish who resisted noble british overlordship that such remarks are fine and dandy.

  • dub

    turgon,

    i find your vindication of this man’s character a little odd… he told his friends not to jeer you because you were, despite appearance to the contrary, of the same mind as them. I see nothing particularly upstanding about this… surely jeering people (and jeering in the North could be fairly vicious involving personal insults, name calling, abusive language, not to mention physical intimidation) simply because they happen to hold different opinions is the issue here. It is a deeply unchristian and unspiritual thing to do, but regarded as very much normal behaviour in our cultures on this island. In Kingsmills the provos told the catholic to go away, Mr Stephenson was merely doing the same with you… don’t target him, he’s one of us. I fail to see the praiseworthiness.

  • dub

    i would add that the lynch mob out for Mr Stephenson here are exhibiting the same deeply unpraiseworthy reflex… gang up on and hang the heretic.

    One thing Mr Stephenson should be praised for is writing down what he presumably actually thought. He should be commended for that.

  • TAFKABO

    TAF the issue is not wether you disagree with him or not, its wether you think it was inappropriate to write such a snide remark? Cleary now Cllr Stevenson in hindsight think perhaps it was. You however do not.

    Sorry, but whilst that may well be the issue for you, it isn’t the issue for me. The issue for me is that seemingly inside every Irish republican bleating on about freedom and an Ireland of equals, we find a totalitarian fascist who demands everyone do, think and say what he tells them.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “One thing Mr Stephenson should be praised for is writing down what he presumably actually thought. He should be commended for that.”

    I agree! But it reveals alot about the staunch Unionist character.

  • I regret what Stephenson wrote because it unnecessarily precipatated a wild discussion about a most controversial event which occurred long ago – what serves no good purpose now.

    Sometimes, people, especially politicians, should just keep their most pointed barbs to themselves.

  • Rory

    This man is an outstanding ambassador for the mindset of unionism. He should be considered as leader of its corps diplomatique.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    ‘Sneering’ seems to be part of the Ulster character, probably moreso the Ulster Unionist character as demonstrated lately. We had Greg Campbell last week with his sneer about the All-Ireland final and champions Tyrone. And now we have this chap’s contribution. Let’s not forget the whole lifetime of sneering by the Rev Paisley’s at the Free State, the Catholic Church, the Irish Nationalist community, etc…etc…

    Gerry and the Sinners can be good at it too, but the Unionists seem to be the masters.

    Should people reciprocate?

    How about an Ulster finals of Sneering, where people can publically sneer at each other? Maybe make it an All-Ireland thing? How about including the UK too?

  • The man is entitled to his view.
    Why should he not have thaat right?

  • TAFKABO

    Yeah Greagoir it’s not like everytime we hear the Shankilll or some other working class unionist area mentioned we get hordes of sneering remarks about chavs and drugs, is it?

  • It’s not a question of Ian Stephenson not having a right to his own opinion about anything.

    It’s a question of his signing the guest book of Kilmainham jail in a needlessly offensive way about brave men who were executed there, and changed the face of Ireland in most obvious ways whether one likes it or not.

    I’m surprised that Stephenson didn’t include Charles Stewart Parnell when writing his offensive note – stating that he too got his just desserts after he was released from there when conspiracy-minded A. V. Dicey, The Times, et al. made out that the Irish politician was just the hypocritical face of America’s physical force Clan na Gael and the Invincibles, the killers of Lord Frederick Cavendish and Dublin Castle Chief Secretary Thomas Burke.

    The whole world, not only Ireland, has been suffering from that one ever since.

  • He is stil entitled to his view-presumably the visitors book is there to allow people to express an opinion.
    The staff who run Kilhainham are excellent people.
    in my dealings with them they have been helpful and courteous-I doubt they will mind about someone expressing an opinion-I certainly dont

  • Reader

    Well, at least this discussion offers a warning about the future of the Maze. There will clearly be some who will want any visitors’ centre to be viewed as a republican shrine, and for one sided history to be presented there so that visitors can offer REVERENCE.

  • Reader-any such centre would also have to be a place of remembrance for the POs who died and were injured.
    They cant be forgotten anymolre can Bobby Sands be styled on of the Kray Twins

  • For a politician on a mission of good will to have signed such a statement in a guest book at a former infamous prison is despicable.

    The guest book is for the names, addresses of visitors, and comments about the institution – its displays, management, admission fees, parking facilities, toilets, etc. – not a license to post highly political, unclear statements about how it treated some former prisoners, as the following visitor’s message demonstrated by stating his/her displeaure over what Stephenson had written.

    And it seems that he really does think that Parnell might well have gotten his just desserts too.

    I guess you are in favor of grafitti being posted anywhere, PMGB.

  • It wasnt grafitti-it is the man’s opinion

  • Graffitti generally does express an opinion if looked at closely – i. e., an offensive view, posted where it shouldn’t – what exactly Stephenson did.

    I’ll be tempted, though, to follow his example the next time I visit the Tower of London – jotting down in its guest book something about its little Princes et al. getting what they so richly merited within its hallowed walls.

    Everyone should follow a similar course whenever one visits one’s favorite prisons.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Here are some of the more renowned prisoners who were detained in Kilmainham Gaol which Councillor Stephenson’s generalized statement includes!

    Henry Joy McCracken, 1796
    Oliver Bond, 1798
    James Bartholomew Blackwell, 1799
    James Napper Tandy, 1799
    Robert Emmet, 1803
    Anne Devlin, 1803
    Thomas Russell, 1803
    Michael Dwyer, 1803
    William Smith O’Brien, 1848
    Thomas Francis Meagher, 1848
    Jeremiah O’Donovan Rossa, 1867
    John O’Connor Power, 1867
    J. E. Kenny, 1881
    Charles Stewart Parnell, 1881
    William O’Brien, 1881
    James Joseph O’Kelly, 1881
    John Dillon, 1882
    Willie Redmond, 1882
    Joe Brady, (Phoenix Park murders) 1883
    Daniel Curley, (Phoenix Park murders) 1883
    Tim Kelly, (Phoenix Park murders) 1883
    Thomas Caffrey, (Phoenix Park murders) 1883
    Michael Fagan, (Phoenix Park murders) 1883
    Michael Davitt
    Patrick Pearse, 1916
    James Connolly, (Executed, but not held at, Kilmainham) 1916
    Countess Markiewicz, 1916
    Éamon de Valera, 1916
    Joseph Plunkett, 1916.
    Michael O’Hanrahan, 1916
    Edward Daly, 1916
    Willie Pearse, 1916
    Thomas MacDonagh, 1916
    Grace Gifford, (Wife of Joseph Plunkett) (1922)
    Ernie O’Malley, during the Civil War.
    Peadar O’Donnell, during the Civil War.

  • Rory

    This is not about any curtailment or censorship of any rights of free speech or expression of opinion. It is a matter of a complete failure of common courtesy. The man Stephenson’s behaviour was simply appalling and by it he has demonstrated that he is simply unfit to be invited to be included in civilised company.

  • Battle of the Boyne site, Glasnevin and Kilmainham. I’m all for remembering the past, but perhaps something a little more modern and reflective of current circumstances might have been in order too.

  • Never having taken this jail tour are the RIC, Dublin Metropolitan Police and others killed by these “revered founders of the nation” remembered?

  • TAFKABO

    The man Stephenson’s behaviour was simply appalling and by it he has demonstrated that he is simply unfit to be invited to be included in civilised company.

    A common theme amongst Irish republicans, you’re more than welcome, as long as you do and say what we want you to do and say. It is upon this basis they envisage a united Ireland.

  • Since the gaol was closed in 1924, there are few others to think about after Grace Gifford – who married the invalid Joseph Plunkett just before he was executed – was incarcerated there.

    And if Irishmen – or people who inhabit the island – can make no connections with people like Robert Emmet, Smith O’Brien, Parnell, Padraig Pearce, et al., it is certainly a sorry country indeed.

  • NP

    I have to say the tour & exhibits have improved in recent years, with more empathesis on the social angle & less on 1916 mania.In the old days the sight of Devs prison undies still give me nightmares, while the countess’ letter to Jim Larkin, while he was banged up in Sing Sing for “industrial anarchism” is a hoot…. paraphrase…. its a disgrace that a white man should be imprisoned with all those darkies.
    In the past many of the tour guides had a republican bias. this has changed.

  • RepublicanStones

    Taf for hopefully the final time, its not about saying you can’t have an opinion. Its about decorum and appropriateness. Stop throwing the toys out of the pram and spewing the hyperbole nonsense about people being thought fascists. So as you think it was appropriate, surely you can have no qualms with people writing offensive things in other such guestbooks over in Britain and the USA for instance.

  • Rory

    I certainly envisage a community where political figures at least can demonsrate the common courtesies that might be expected of a responsible adult attending at an historic site. Are you saying, TAFKABO, that it is foolish to expect such behaviour from unionists? I would hope not. Compare it with the dignified and respectful visits by leading Sinn Féin figures to British war memorials commemorating the fallen Irish volunteers in their wars.

  • TAFKABO

    Republicanstones.

    A year or two ago there was an incident where some (presumably nationalist) PSNI recruits had taken a memorial wreath to the RUC and dumped it into a toilet.
    Now I haven’t checked back to see what was said on Slugger at the time, but let’s say I did go back and research any thread on the incident.
    What do you think I’d find?

    As for decorum, I also recall a planned march in Dublin city centre by relatoves of those killed by the IRA, how did that pass off exactly?

    If you want to play the “civilised decorum” game, I’m more than happy to do that.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “As for decorum, I also recall a planned march in Dublin city centre by relatoves of those killed by the IRA, how did that pass off exactly?”

    This comparison is totally wrong. It’s is rather amazing how large the divide is regarding opinions and attitudes!

    Just like the councillor’s in question!

  • TAFKABO

    What’s rather amazing is some people’s complete and total inability to understand that their opinion is just that, an opinion.
    But no, we get the word REVERANCE typed in caps, because for some people they honestly think they have the truth and everyone else should go along with it.
    So my comparison is invalid, why exactly?
    It wouldn’t be because I’m talking about IRA victims and they’re not nearly as important as Irish republican dead?

  • HeadTheBall

    “a most controversial event which occurred long ago” (THF)

    This is, strictly, off topic but I am intrigued by the contrast between THF’s justifiably complex assessment and the “fathers of the state” view elsewhere expressed. The starting point to making headway in NI is to admit that violent republicanism has brought us nothing but Partition. So, where did violent republicanism start? In 1916, of course. (Sure, I know about the Fenians, et al, but they had more or less faded into oblivion by 1916.) To address the truth, we at some stage are going to have to start unpicking the reputation of the heroes of 1916, acknowledging their courage but equally their political blindness, perhaps alongside the creepy fixation on death and blood sacrifice and the pervasive attractions of the clandestine. We have to see 1916 as an event which diverted Ireland (all of it) into a cul-de-sac in history and try to move on from there.

  • So Head the Ball, we should separate 1916 from the various Home Rule Crises, especially 1912 and the formation of the UVF?

  • LURIG

    How would Unionists feel if on the Monday after the Shankill bomb, someone stated that the innocent victims “….got what they deserved….. because the premises above the fish shop were regularly used by the UDA to meet and plan the murder of innocent Catholics”? They would be outraged and rightly so. This is a thread that can be argued and counter argued until the cows come home. It is painting the Forth Rail Bridge because there is NO end.

  • The Raven

    Gosh I am so glad that everything else is so a-ok with the region, that we can manage three pages of whataboutery of comments on this actually quite trifling matter.

    I repeat, again, over 750 people lost their jobs last week, and we have barely managed mentioning it. Some neanderthal writes in a comment book at a tourist trap, and indeed, writes nothing more than you would expect him to do, and we run to three pages…???

  • HeadTheBall

    Gari,

    “we should separate 1916 from…”

    Not for a minute. Those topics you mention together constituted the problem that needed to be addressed (as distinct from the heroic Gael v. brutal Saxon script which republicans have always preferred to address). But can anyone seriously suggest that the tragi-comedy that was 1916, or the bitter independence war and civil war which followed it, were a clear-sighted attempt to address it?

  • HeadTheBall

    LURIG,

    I agree this sort of thing can go on for ever and that this eejit Stevenson chose the wrong medium in which to register his view but I still don’t like your analogy. Suppose I saw 1916 as a stab in the back to all those Irishmen serving on the Western Front to defend us from Prussian militarism. I might then feel that the firing squad was “just deserts” for the rebels (I don’t, I wish that the Brit administration in Ireland had had the sense simply to laugh the rebels into obscurity and let us get on with the peaceful evolution of a 32-county state, of whatever colour). That WW1 service has, until recently, been airbrushed out of the RoI record allows, I think, nationalists to feel an affront about 1916 to which they are not wholly entitled.

    Would you accept this?

  • Billy

    TAFKABO

    “As for decorum, I also recall a planned march in Dublin city centre by relatoves of those killed by the IRA, how did that pass off exactly?”

    While I unreservedly condemn the hooligan element that instigated the trouble on that day, please don’t treat Nationalists on this site as if we are stupid.

    The “Love Ulster” rally was organised by a man with dubious connections to “loyalist” terrorists and who defended sectarian murderer and drug dealer Billy Wright.

    They were carrying banners commemorating Robert McConnell as an “innocent victim”. McConnell was a brutal sectarian murderer – a member of the Glenanne gang who was involved in the murder of many innocent Catholics – men, women and children.

    They were involved in the Dublin and Monaghan bombs so it was really tactful to carry placards with his name on them in Dublin.

    Frazer clearly has a very hypocritical attitude when it comes to differentiating between innocent victims and “loyalist” terrorists.

    There were also “loyalist” paramilitaries in attendance.

    As I have already said, I abhor the riotous behaviour that occurred. The parade should have been allowed to proceed with a dignified protest.

    Frazer has already been totally discredited by his comments about “loyalist” terrorists and his commemoration of known “loyalist” terrorists like McConnell.

    Don’t try to hold up this as an inoffensive march commemorating victims of IRA violence – why commemorate a known “loyalist” terrorist in the clear knowledge that this would cause offence.

    I wouldn’t ever support a Republican parade marching up the Shankill commemorating IRA members as it would rightly cause massive offence and undoubtedly a violent reaction.

    While I don’t support the rioting that went on, Frazer marched through a Nationalist city commemorating a known sectarian “loyalist” murderer.

    Frazer’s hypocrisy on “loyalist” terrorism is well known. Any right minded person wouldn’t commemorate McConnell. There is no difference between that and a parade commemorating an IRA man.

    The riotous behaviour was wrong but the anger was totally understndable.

  • TAFKABO

    Billy.

    You’d have saved yourself a hell of a lot of typing if you’d just typed “they got what they deserved”.

    I think my point has been proven.

  • Billy

    TAFKABO

    “I think my point has been proven”

    Perhaps, in your mind but I doubt in anyone else’s.

    Do you have a problem with the English language? I clearly stated my abhorrence of the violence as I do ALL violence.

    However, you tried to be disengenuous (and failed) by suggesting that the “Love Ulster” parade was simply a group of relatives grieving for “innocent” victims of the IRA.

    I have clearly proven that it was more than that -if you can prove otherwise then do so.

    I said that the anger of those who remember what McConnell and his “loyalist” terrorist friends did, particularly in Dublin, is understandable.

    I also said that the violence that ensued was not.

    The only point proven here is that you conveniently overlooked some FACTS that disprove your pitiful attempt at whataboutery and I clearly proved you wrong by pointing out those FACTS.

    Here’s a tip – don’t ever try to score points by using Willie Frazer. The guy’s credibility is non-existent- his hypocrisy on “loyalist” terrorism is legendary.

  • Agree with HeadTheBall’s assessment.

    And the best place to start with it is the totally stupid executions of the leaders of the Easter Uprising. While it made maybe common sense at the time, it certainly didn’t make good sense in the long run, making real martyrs out of people like Plunkett, Connolly, et al.

    And Stephenson just continued to compound the stupidity by going out of his way to say that not only they but also all the others who tried to deal with Ireland’s colonial status deserved what they got from their English masters.

    None of them, especially the leaders of the Easter Uprising, really got what they deserved, and we have all been paying for it since.

  • Jack

    Didn’t their executions lead to the formation of the northern statelet?
    Shouldn’t they be appreciated for that if you appreciate the northern statelet?

  • HeadTheBall

    Jack, oul han’,

    Drop the sarcasm and confront the question.

    They (the 1916 leaders):

    – can not be appreciated (by northern Unionists) because it was not their intention to create “the northern statelet”
    – will not be appreciated (by northern Nationalists) because all they did was to create “the northern statelet”.

    Geddit?

  • HeadTheBall

    “will not be appreciated” should be “should not be appreciated” – sorry.

  • HeadTheBall

    Jack,

    Anyway, I think we are in agreement. All that violent republicanism has ever delivered is Partition.

  • Congal Claen

    “respected in the south in the same manner Washington et al are in the USA”

    Washington was a former British officer and just so happened to be a large land owner. So, he did very well out of independence. Probably just a coincidence tho – it was probably just the people he was thinking of…

    It’s often left unmentioned that thousands of Americans had to leave the States after the War of Independence as they were on the “wrong” side. One wonders whether some on here wish the same for their fellow Irishmen who just happen to be Unionists….

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “It’s often left unmentioned that thousands of Americans had to leave the States after the War of Independence as they were on the “wrong” side. One wonders whether some on here wish the same for their fellow Irishmen who just happen to be Unionists….”

    Congal Clan….
    Do Unionists entertain such thoughts?

  • barnshee

    Said what he thought– so what –as far as MOST prods are concerned it really has little to do with him/her.

    Its just part of the irish/ myth/ martyr / occupation/mopery that is used to build/ boltser/ create group cohesion in the form of the “nation once again” crap.

    IRELAND SINCE 1916

    1 Natives revolt in middle of WW 1
    2 Ruling power gets pissed of shoots a few
    3 War over ruling power fed up, even more pissed of looks a damp hole to the west and a says who the fuck wants that?
    4 Trys to bail out -shit- natives in North want to stay in UK oh fuck.
    5 George V (HRH) big speech at Stormont says basically- sort the fucking thing out yourselves.

    By 2008 Good friday ageement- again sort the fucking thing out youselves.

    By 2016 ? whats the odds it will still be “sort the fucking thing out yourselves”

  • Jasus some of these dupers take a hell of a lot of house training.But we will persevere.

  • darth rumsfeld

    way to go councillor Stevenson!!!
    It’s about time someone showed these ghastly huggin and lovin junkets for the ballix they are. Sure it was crass and insensitive, possibly insulting to one’s hosts, but just cos you’re a guest doesn’t mean you have to swallow the hype. Better by far to highlight the differences in case people think you bought their argument. I respect an honest opponent far more than someone who pretends to agree with you. Dub(post 25) is right. We prosper far more on a relationship of truth not diplomatic lies.

    If only your current party were just as consistent on applying the death penalty to the ideological descendants of the 1916 rebels.
    Willie McCrea circa 2000- “Gerry Adams should be strung up”
    Willie McCrea in 2007- “these people turn my stomach”
    Willie Mccrea in 2008 “dum de dum. Is that the time?”

  • Here Darth, any insight into Willie’s conversations about Billy Wright?

  • barnshee

    “Reader-any such centre would also have to be a place of remembrance for the POs who died and were injured.
    They cant be forgotten anymolre can Bobby Sands be styled on of the Kray Twins”
    Even the Krays would hesitate to be associated with BSands how many 2 year old children did they murder?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Geagoir,

    “Do Unionists entertain such thoughts?”

    I take it you mean just NI? If so, some probably do. However, I describe myself as Irish as well as unionist/british and I would like to see all Ireland to rejoin the UK. By freewill obviously. The Republic is a brilliant country – brilliant scenery, lovely buildings and a great atmosphere as well. Dublin especially is a magical place – much better than Belfast. I’d love to see you all back.

  • pat

    Is Ian not a bit old for Bebo ?

    http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=7657387059

    Favourite music album : Willie McCrea and Abba.

    Didn’t realise Willie and Abba released an album 🙂

    He’s shy but outwardly confident, usually showers every day and shopifted when he was 12.

    Did Ian sign the Kilmainham guest book – Ian wus ere, ok.

  • Tochais Si­orai­

    Is there an inhouse competition in the DUP at the moment as to who can be the most boorish gobshite?

    Hold on, drop the ‘at the moment’ bit.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “It’s about time someone showed these ghastly huggin and lovin junkets for the ballix they are. Sure it was crass and insensitive, possibly insulting to one’s hosts, but just cos you’re a guest doesn’t mean you have to swallow the hype. Better by far to highlight the differences in case people think you bought their argument. I respect an honest opponent far more than someone who pretends to agree with you. Dub(post 25) is right. We prosper far more on a relationship of truth not diplomatic lies.”

    WOO HOO! Gung Ho….Who cares about diplomacy and tact then Darth, probably we should all speak truthfully and state what we really feel about people, history etc…. no matter how crass and insensitive. But surely this goes against your Christian convictions and Orange Order standards and qualifications! Else you have recently renounced the lot!

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Here Darth, any insight into Willie’s conversations about Billy Wright?

    Posted by Garibaldy on Sep 29, 2008 @ 02:05 PM”

    None Gari- never having met either individual. Sorry to spoil the stereotype- and frankly a bit surprised. You’re usually more mature.
    Again I merely make the point that respect for the other man’s entitlement to hold a point of view doesn’t mean accepting its validity – or even not ridiculing it. No Unionist in 1916 would have regarded the 1916 rebels as anyhting other than traitors, and deserving of what they got, and the distance of a century doesn’t automatically invalidate that perspective

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “However, I describe myself as Irish as well as unionist/british and I would like to see all Ireland to rejoin the UK. By freewill obviously. The Republic is a brilliant country – brilliant scenery, lovely buildings and a great atmosphere as well. Dublin especially is a magical place – much better than Belfast. I’d love to see you all back.”

    Cheers Congal Claen, thanks for the compliments bout the south, as we ain’t all bad as some other folks may think!
    But I can’t see the ROI ever rejoining the Commomwealth, it would have to go to a referendum and most folk would never vote for it down here. However as I’ve always said, Ireland’s (ROI) relationship with Britain has never been better today, ie regarding trade, business, culture, sport, entertainment etc… It was vitually non existant when we were part of the UK, but now it has never been as vibrant; for we are now partners on an equal footing!
    The amount of UK citizens, especially English folk living in the south today is testament to this!

  • Darth,

    I can understand unionist views entirely. Although [as I was saying to Turgon just the other day on my new blog here
    :-)], I don’t find that view convincing.

    The reference to Billy Wright was because your comment seemed to suggest calling for the execution of those who use violence in favour of separatism was a good thing. That’s fine if that’s your opinion. But Mc Crea seemed a strange choice given his standing on a platform with Wright. It seemed relevant to the topic at hand, which is the inability of people to see any view but their own.

  • Balls. Made a mess of hyperlinking. Oh well. It’s here anyway

    http://garibaldy.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/roger-casement-1916-and-modern-ireland/

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Greagoir,

    “It was vitually non existant when we were part of the UK, but now it has never been as vibrant; for we are now partners on an equal footing!”

    Do you think that is actually true tho? Do you not think that partly Irealnd’s perceived ills was really a class struggle. Which wasn’t unique to Ireland. Poor people were poor whether they were in Dublin or London and life was grim.

    I thought Dublin was considered the 2nd city of the Empire. Consider the money lavished on it through buildings and public parks. Phoenix Park and St Stephen’s Green must have cost a fortune and were deliberately built to enhance Dublin’s image internationally. Hardly the image that is portrayed of the “colonial” power by nationalism today.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Do you not think that partly Ireland’s perceived ills was really a class struggle. Which wasn’t unique to Ireland. Poor people were poor whether they were in Dublin or London and life was grim.”

    Very true Congael, but with Ireland with had an another dimension of religious class that hindered or enhanced to a degree a person’s chances in life!

    “I thought Dublin was considered the 2nd city of the Empire.”

    Indeed it was Congael, but this was prior to the Act of Union believe it or not, when we had Dublin’s fine Georgian Streets of classical stone buildings and red brick town houses laid out for the Ascendancy. This fine architectural legacy can be still seen today. However it was after the Act of Union that the rot set in and the city fell into decline as capital and finance, and the wealthy merchants moved to London. It was to lose it’s status as the Empire’s ‘second city’, as it was surpassed by other British provincial towns.

    http://www.dublinuncovered.net/history.html

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin
  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    BTW, Sorry for the spelling mistakes Congal Claen.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “But surely this goes against your Christian convictions and Orange Order standards and qualifications! Else you have recently renounced the lot!”

    Nope
    convictions ought to be expressed with some tact, but I don’t find these horrible jollies where we are supposed to reduce our convictions to a generalised mush worthwhile. of course we have many common interests- no doubt even I’d find Martin McGuinness a useful comrade if the Martians were invading (assuming he wasn’t a secret agent for Tharg and his chums). I did say Stephenson was crass, but I’d rather crass honesty than sleekit spin.

    I’d try to respect my guests’ beliefs than grope for a common amorphous blob of humanism- like inviting your vegetarian guest to eat some fish cos it’s not a cute’n’cuddly baby lamb

    Gari- the execution of people is ndeed not to be undertaken lightly but if Kilmainham was truly representative there’s got to be some acknowledgment of the innocent Dubliners mown down by these irresponsible blood sacrifice cultists. For their crimes they did indeed get what they deserved- as would Mr Wright, had he been properly convicted and executed. Instead the government had to engage in some underhand conspiracy to have him taken out

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘..and the distance of a century doesn’t automatically invalidate that perspective’

    Glad to hear it, so no matter how long the northern statelet survives, the view(fact) that it was formed against the democratic will of the irish people to ensure a sectarian numerical superiority for the colonial lackeys in the north east won’t be invalidated.

    Funny, its the pesky unmannerly natives who have the cheek to refuse to bend the knee to British overlordship who seem to know what decorum and manners are. With the hooray-Henrys believing writing offensive remarks are to be encouraged.

    From this thread its plain to see, to resist british rule is a scummy thing to do. Native plebs really should know their place. Spot of sherry anyone?

  • borderline

    So a DUP councillor writes what he feels.
    Good for him.

    I’ll take it on the chin.

  • HeadTheBall

    RS,

    I know that you long ago gave up reading in favour of straightforward ranting but one of the arguments being advanced here is not that republican violence (in 1916) was wrong, though some might argue that, but that it was foolish, in that it delivered only Partition (actually, it delivered a hell of a lot else, including the Special Powers Act, internment, B Specials, and so on).

  • RepublicanStones

    Sorry HTB so there was no unionist gun running, no ulster covenant. I have it now. Thanks.

  • HeadTheBall

    RS,

    That was the job of work that fell to be done. If you want to befriend a neighbour you don’t start by provoking his Rottweiler.

    So, by your lights, 1916 was a success, then?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘If you want to befriend a neighbour you don’t start by provoking his Rottweiler.’

    Nah, you inavde, subjugate, plant and divide and rule. Simple.

  • RepublicanStones

    Btw are you saying that by wishing for home ruke the irish peoples demcoratic wished psiied off the Rottweiler that was unionism?

  • Dave

    Unionism is more akin to a caged monkey: if it isn’t fed and supplied with clean water by its keeper, it’ll die. 😉

  • HeadTheBall

    RS,

    Not exactly. I was just wondering what, with the example of 1912, etc before them, the “founding fathers” thought was likely to be the unionist reaction to the Rising. This has always puzzled me deeply, but I recently saw some posters on this site who argued that the men of 1916 were prepared to sacrifice unity for a “Gaelic reconquest”. This I can understand, if hardly sympathise with, but not in any other rational terms at all.

    I have the same difficulty with Collins, deV, Boland, et al. Could they simply not “see” the North or did they not care?

    BTW, what about my question: by your lights was 1916 a success?

    (Sorry about the delay in letting you have a reply.)

  • As one would assume, this discussion has gotten far away from the issue at hand – i. e., Ian Stephenson, a politician on a fence-mending mission, writing down in the guest book of Kilmainham Gaol, the citadel of English rule over Ireland, that all those incarcerated within it got what they deserved.

    Did Charles Stewart Parnell, who was arrested over his opposition to the Land Act, and imprisoned at Kilmainham, get what he deserved then, and subsequently? As A. V. Dicey, while he was still conspiring to help the adoption of Home Rule, asked sarcastically: “Was Mr. Parnell to be kept in prison till Ireland became as quiet as England?”

    And similar complaints can be made of others incarcerated there just to suit the coercive inclinations of Ireland’s English masters.

    And for Stephenson to have gone out of his way to insult them all as if they were simply terrorists is totally uncalled under the circumstances of his visit.

  • Here’s a link about the lovely facilities at Kilmainham, and another one of its famous occupants – Daniel ‘The Liberator’ O’Connell:

    http://thedubliner.typepad.com/the_dubliner_magazine/2008/07/the-dubliners-d.html

    O’Connell died shortly after his arbitrary sojurn there, a completely broken man. His imprisonment was ultimately quahed by the Law Lords, thanks to Lord Brougham finally arranging it.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Greagoir,

    Cheers for the info.

    “Very true Congael, but with Ireland with had an another dimension of religious class that hindered or enhanced to a degree a person’s chances in life!”

    Agreed. However, that cut both ways did it not? Bloody Mary got her nickname for a reason afterall. I’m thinking that is behind us. Bar the stupid bar on catholics for head of state or prime minister. Blair really should have converted whilst PM to sort that.

    The way I’m thinking is that most people do not discriminate religiously anymore and surely it makes sense for us all to come together again if that’s what separates us.

  • RepublicanStones

    Hiya HTb, apologies but indisposed through work all yesterday.

    ‘BTW, what about my question: by your lights was 1916 a success?’

    This is a tricky one. Militarily, it was an absolute failure. But considering the school of thought surrounding Pearse and his belief in the need for a blood sacrifice to stir the greater populace, the answer may not be so simple. If the British had not been so ruthless in dealing with the leaders perhaps then too, Pearse’s blood sacrifice may have come to nothing. However it did stir the people as is perfectly encapsulated with Yeats’ ‘Easter 1916’ and attitudes did change. You may argue if they hadn’t staged the rising, Home Rule may have come, but Im sure some were well aware of the ‘Covenant’ crowd in the north and the difficulties they would present for Home Rule, so just as you might say the Rising brought Partition, not to do it may have left Britian in charge of all Ireland at the demand of unionism.

  • Sha

    As a Nationalist,I had the opportunity to accompany reps from 4 other council districts on this recent trip with Ian Stevenson. This involved The visit to the Boyne,Glesnevin Cemetary and Killmainham Gaol. The Boyne Trip was an experience that I thought I would never experience nor want to take but we live in changing times.
    I thought it striking particularly the idea that religion never came into play in Ireland until the POPE started to play hop scotch with whatever army he wanted to back.
    There was also a quote that stuck with me by Winston Churchill along the lines of ‘give the Irish guns and they’ll shoot themselves’.

    If Ian was to take any message from this trip then it should have been that we have more in common as a people than our fellow human beings across the water and that we as an island have historicaly been manipulated for land, profit and political gain throughout the centuries. I also have to stress that I know DUP councillors that would have been more diplomatic and respectful of Irish culture regardless of whether they related to it or not.
    Don’t let Ian Stevensons small comments once again dictate our future, there was bigger achievements and bridges built through shared learning and acceptance.
    In my opinion fundamental presbyterians like Ian will learn to reconcile but they may take a wee bit longer.
    In the mean time I would recommend anyone to visit all the sites mentioned above as they do reflect periods of our painful Irish history.