“the community will accept that it is a necessary use of lethal force..”

Perhaps inadvertently, the DUP’s Ian Paisley Jnr, a member of the Policing Board, provides another reason to delay the devolving of policing and justice powers. He’s apparently concerned about the recent use of Semtex. And, perhaps, the attempts to exert control in certain areas. From the iol report.

Mr Paisley claimed people would now accept it as necessary to finally crush the dissident threat. “Sooner or later there will be a murder of a police officer unless the police are able to deploy ruthlessness in tracking down and wiping out these dissident members,” said the North Antrim MLA. “I believe the community will accept such measures and if dissidents are shot on sight, the community will accept that it is a necessary use of lethal force to prevent dissident republicanism from growing.

“Finally, given the seriousness of this most recent murder attempt, I believe the (Stormont) executive ought to ensure that a full discussion on the security situation must take place with a view to ensuring every encouragement is given to the police and army in the eradication of dissident republicans.”

, , , ,

  • cynic

    Prionsa

    Try this one for starters

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/study-finds-no-genetic-divide-between-celts-and-english-135269.html

    The key quotes are:-

    “Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is actually not the case.

    “This is significant as the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. From a genetic point of view there is no divide between the Celts and the English,” Prof Sykes said.

    The reality is that the Irish and Brits have common genetic roots which seem to have merged from migrations into these islands from Iberia and Germany. There are some differences but in the great scheme of things we have much more in common than we have differences.

    Shocking isn’t it … from both an Irish and an English perspective.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Ok Cynic you have cleared that up, you simply misunderstand the evidence you are presented with. Though the eedjit of a reporter didn’t help. In fact you are mainly right, but are presenting it in such a way as to be wrong, I’ll explain.

    >>The study has also revealed that Ireland invaded Scotland even before it was invaded by the British.< >From a genetic point of view there is no divide between the Celts and the English,” Prof Sykes said.< http://tinyurl.com/2hxvce

  • cynic

    Sorry but I disagree.

    The point I made was that genetically we are all mixed up. The Irish invaded Scotland and then the Scots later colonised Ireland. The Iberian peoples moved north and the Germanic moved west.

    I agree its not totally clear yet but the key point is that we are all a rag bag of gentic inheritance that comes from a series of common roots. They may all be mixed in very slightly different %’s but they are mixed. To suggest that some of us come from some fundamentally unique celtic nation that has existed in this Island from prehistory and has therefore preemption rights on the territory is fundamentally wrong

  • cynic

    … and I agree that it is fascinating and at times challenging to lots of preconceptions about who we are and who others are.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Yep I have had preconceptions smashed quite a few times with the advances in DNA research.

    >>The point I made was that genetically we are all mixed up.< >The Irish invaded Scotland and then the Scots later colonised Ireland.< >To suggest that some of us come from some fundamentally unique celtic nation that has existed in this Island from prehistory and has therefore preemption rights on the territory is fundamentally wrong<

  • cynic

    ” I’ve made no such claim and never would. I originally pointed out to you the difference between the modern political meaning of British and the meaning of British when in the context of DNA. However, be they Celts or not, the Irish certainly had a pretty high culture that was unique for a time. From pre-history though, no. Who could make such a claim?”

    Prionsa

    I agree completely with you on that and also pointed out that the issue of culture was completely separate from the reality of who we are genetically. The argument of others (as I understand it) was that the native Irish were in some way unique and distinct and therefore had preemptive rights on the turf as they had been here from time immemorial. All others were interlopers.

    In the end it all depends on when you want to start to count from but the long term outworking of these studies is fascinating – though in the end we all seem to be Kenyan.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>therefore had preemptive rights on the turf as they had been here from time immemorial. All others were interlopers.<

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Its a nationalist creed based on a false doctrine of some distinct celtic race that has an inherent right to rule and that has sought to impose that by violence.’

    Hang on cynic wasn’t the Union imposed with VIOLENCE? (Porbably too uncomfortable for you to admit) And the idea of irish freedom has been espoused by many down through the years not just those who would call themselves celts or gaels. But that is also uncomfortable for you to admit, as it doesn’t sit well with your attempt to portray republicanism as some facist ideology.

    ‘It was you who denied the unionist right to self determination not me. You also rail against ‘British rule’ but the Brits you hate are living here. There are 1,000,000 of them.’

    So an artificially implanted minority has the right to determine the destiny of a country eh?
    And again you seek to portray that I hate brits. Where have i stated that? Irish freedom is merely about the removal of british rule. nobody said anything about hating anybody, you said that not I. it seems in a futile effort to win your spurious argument you resort to putting words into peoples mouths. SAD.

    ‘..and Unionists can argue that Unionst freedom is about freedom from Irish rulke.’

    Freedom from Irish rule, even in IRELAND? your above statement demonstrates perfectly the colonial mentality still espoused by some unionists.

    ‘The only problem here is your self-serving attempt to stereotype all unionists as some orange coloured cardboard cut out.’

    Hang on, i never said you were an orangemean, i merely suggested you had friends who were. Do you not? Also its funny yopu speak about stereotypes whilst in the same breath wish to portray republicans as facist brit-hating troglodytes

    ‘..a Unionists view so not worth bothering about..’

    unionism didn’t bother too much with the vast majority of Irish people’s views down through the centuries.

    ‘You are obviously annoyed because i have highlighted the serious gaps in your logic and exposed the nasty sectarian undercurrent in your postings. You really do have some serious self examination to do on this. But clearly my post got under your skin – so that’s a start.’

    Finally a self-congratulatory backslap and lies. there was no sectarian undercurrent in my posts, not for the want of claims on your part, and it seems if mentioning history and referring to facts is sectarian, i expect you spent your history classes in school colouring in books with crayons. Your post didn’t get under my skin, the selective grasp of history and false claims did give me a giggle however.

  • cynic

    “So an artificially implanted minority has the right to determine the destiny of a country eh? ”

    Read the other posts… they aren’t artificially implanted. Thats the whole point!

    “Freedom from Irish rule, even in IRELAND?”

    You might as well argue that the Scots or Welsh have no rights to any self determination as they are on the same landmass as the English. Was Hitler right to invade most of Europe because it was on his landmass and should therefore be subject to German rule?

    And if that is Unionists view they are entitled to hold it. Thats also what’s enshrined in the Acts that both parts of Ireland voted for. You don’t like it? Tough. You really don’t understand this human rights thing do you?

    “Hang on cynic wasn’t the Union imposed with VIOLENCE? ”

    And wasn’t the creation of a Republic imposed with violence? And didn’t those who did that then turn to infighting in a squalid little power grab. But where pray does that take you? You do not seem to understand that killing people is a BAD THING .

    “it doesn’t sit well with your attempt to portray republicanism as some facist ideology. ”

    What I said was it was fascist in its most recent manifestation. And sectarian. Do try and keep up. But by the way if you look at the inter war years it had two components, one communist leaning and one fascist. Nothing like a bit of balance eh.

    “i merely suggested you had friends who were (members of the OO) . Do you not? ”

    No i don’t, nor do I consciously know any protestants who are members. Good luck to them but nor frankly do i want to. We don’t all sit around the dinner table wearing sashes and plotting the downfall of Rome you know

    But there you go again. You are so stuck in a stereotyped mindset that you cannot cope with this. You cannot even cope with the fact that consistently a significant % of catholics voted to retain the union.

    Breaks stereotype?. Does not compute? Sorry but that’s the way life is. complicated.

    “portray republicans as facist brit-hating”

    I will let people read your posts and make their own minds up on that one.

    Why are you so full of anger? Did an orangeman steal your dummy when you were little?

    One of the great rules of blogging generally is not to feed the Trolls. I have probably given you far too much sustenance already so am going to stop now. Try to go back to your cave and digest it, secure in your own grievance.

  • cynic

    “Anyhow something that bugs me is that many of the planted Scots were Gaels themselves, ”

    Yip we are all Heinz 57 mongrels with mixes of Scots, irish, Viking, Norman, Iberian etc thrown in. In may ways it’s invigorating when you look at the wars fought over many years on racial grounds when under the skin we are all almost all the same and from the same common ancestors.

    Unless of course you believe in Intelligent Design… then its all God;s fault)

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘You might as well argue that the Scots or Welsh have no rights to any self determination as they are on the same landmass as the English’

    eh no, Scots are in scotland, welsh are in wales, irish are in ireland. Its pretty simple.

    ‘You really don’t understand this human rights thing do you?’

    From a unionist, this is frankly laughable.

    ‘You do not seem to understand that killing people is a BAD THING .’

    Which makes the union you hold dear rotten to the core. The republic was gained by its people using that which used to take the land from them. Justified in anyones book, except maybe unionisms colonial mentality.

    ‘We don’t all sit around the dinner table wearing sashes and plotting the downfall of Rome you know’

    Who suggested you did? Again with the hyperbole.

    ‘You cannot even cope with the fact that consistently a significant % of catholics voted to retain the union.’

    Again with the religious element. Apart from the fact you will no doubt furnish me with the numbers of exactly how many catholics voted to retain the union, you seem to think irishman means catholic???? Irish freedom is about the right of the irish, all irish to govern themselves. if some people on the island choose to describe themselves as british, its not the fault of the irish, and as such the demands of said minority should not dictate the destiny the vast majority.

    ‘One of the great rules of blogging generally is not to feed the Trolls.’

    You must have some belly on you in that case.
    learn to cut the apron strings will ya? |Welcome to Ireland !

  • DK

    republicanstons: “You seem to like to propagate the falsehood that republicans want all british/unionists/protestants to upsticks and leave, which is bullshit. Nowhere have i advocated that.”

    Oh really – you have a video of yourself on youtube walking down the shankill with sectarian comments every now and then (“they’re all collecting their dole” … etc). Suggests that you actually do put some time and thought into, er, hoping that “all british/unionists/protestants to upsticks and leave”. Cynic has got you bang to rights.

  • RepublicanStones

    DK unless you have proof where i have said every protestant/unionits/person who is british has to leave i suggest you quit talking absolute shite. I’ll await your proof of the “all british/unionists/protestants to upsticks and leave” claim. Until then I’ll afford myself a nice big smile 🙂

  • We Irish are very lucky to have such interesting affairs of state to discourse about.What boring lives other nations must have with nothing but the weather to gossip about.

    Anyway I digress, could Ian Paisley junior`s comments not be described as the offence of “incitement to murder”.It is possible for security forces to murder somebody if they act beyond the law which does still apply to them I hope.

    In any case these comments do nothing for the unionist community except to reduce the likes of IPJ to the levels of the terrorists he wants summarily executed.Surely the unionist community can do better than him in this time of opportunity.There must be some unionists that can see the bigger picture and have a vision of the unionist future.

  • cynic

    DK

    Don’t you think that its strange to video shoppers on the Shankill and criticize them as unemployed while wearing white dole scum trainers. White trainers! So 1980’s!

  • RepublicanStones

    What was that about stereotyping? Now anyone who wears trainers is a dole scum? And everyone who draws their UB40 is scum?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>RS – So an artificially implanted minority has the right to determine the destiny of a country eh? “

    Cynic – Read the other posts… they aren’t artificially implanted. Thats the whole point!< <@ 10:48 PM>>PE – “Anyhow something that bugs me is that many of the planted Scots were Gaels themselves, “

    cynic – Yip we are all Heinz 57 mongrels with mixes of Scots, irish, Viking, Norman, Iberian etc thrown in.<<@ 10:53 PMWoah ,woah woah.......Haud yir horses cynic ma man. You are grossly misrepresenting me here.First off The Scots and English WERE artificially implanted into Ulster and elsewhere in Ireland. Just because I have the same ethnic genes as an Irishman, Welshman or someone from the west of England doesn't give me a right to their land. So I'm afraid that is most certainly not the whole point. As a matter of interest, the area around Florence and the whole northern leg bit of Italy has people with our ethnic DNA, I'm willing to get planted there if you're offering.Secondly, the Scottish Gaels were seen by the Irish Gaels as of them, the young clansmen who would come over to Ireland every year in the campaigning season were called Gallowglasses. Some think this means strange Gaels, but I doubt they would be called that by people so close in language and culture. They perhaps had some Norse blood in them(I don't think that much though) but certainly were influenced in parts by Norse culture. Post reformation and the plantation the route these young men used to go and fight in Ireland was cut off and the tradition ended. I was lamenting that many of these newly Protestant Gaels and lowlanders, who themselves were probably only as little as half a dozen generations away from speaking Gaelic or a form of Welsh. had cast these traditions aside because it is too close to the native Irish. In favour of a foreign culture.I don't see how this supports your point that we are all mongrels, which I have already explained I don't think we are.

  • gareth mccord

    i think that too may people ignore the truth and twist actions to suit their beliefs.
    but nobody from either side of the fence can argue with the many lives lost here due to actions from all people to suit their twisted ways.
    nobody can deny that the I.R.A. have killed more catholics than all the british forces(including loyalist terrorists). But why do the catholic community give s.f./i.r.a. such a high vote??
    nobody can deny that the british government paid loyalist terrorists for being an agent even though the agent was allowed to murder drug deal and destroy their own community.
    nobody can deny that the unionist politicians ignored and denied that loyalist terrorists killed and got paid by the government.why well i know that the unionist politicians r on the same team so that is why they and r doing nothing about loyalist collusion.
    nobody can deny that the british government has used all sides and destroyed many lives to suit their game of politics.
    nobody can deny that all the top agents who murdered for all the years r either at the top of the tree in stormont or given a new financial life in other countries.
    i think instead of catholics blaming protestants and vice versa we all should expose our own politicians and terrorists and realise that saying that “your own’s the worst”

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Totally agree Gareth.

  • cynic

    Prionsa

    Forgive me but all this is a slippery slope and as I have indicated before, where does it take us.

    For example, if we accept that the genetic record shows broadly that we are all mixed up ie of one diverse diaspora created by repeated migrations, plantations, etc this way and that, then there is no true unique Scots or Irish or Wesl or English race that can claim that they are the indigenous natives of that land (unlike perhaps the native Americans in the USA or the aborigines in Australia).

    If you then say, ah yes but there was a culture called the Irish (and I fully accept that there was) that occupied Ireland and were then displaced in part of that country by the Scots Irish, does that leave the Irish with superior rights to the land? After all, the Scots Irish and they shared common ancestors in Ireland and Scotland.

    It then comes down to where you start counting the dates for the “Yah yah we wuz here first claim”. Do you count to the last conquest (in this case in NI the Scots irish planters win) or the one berfore that (the Irish win)? What criteria do you use? Why?

    The problem is that our whole concept of our ethnic and social histories (on all sides) is founded on myths largely developed over the last 300 years. None of this is a problem if you are looking at how our cultures developed separately – I think that’s a different matter.

    But it is a problem when, as some do, you then try to link that to preemption rights of a particular piece of earth because your genes entitle you to it.

  • cynic

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7578770.stm

    Hey Stones

    Perhaps your trainers could get a job as a stand in on the titles.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    cynic

    >>if we accept that the genetic record shows broadly that we are all mixed up<

  • cynic

    “And issues of who was on the land first is an irrelevance. Anyone who claims that the descendants of the planters should not be there are clearly wrong as roots and sense of ownership has long since passed. However when those descendants show nothing but contempt for the culture of the people who share their land, a culture that was belatedly their own. Then that stinks to high heaven as I have already stated.”

    …. and I agree with all that. The issues with land ownership were those of others, specifically republican Stones, who in effect argued that as ‘transplants’ into Ireland the unionist had no rights compared to the ‘native Irish’. That was the point I was arguing against