Hartley elected Lord Mayor of Belfast

Tom Hartley of Sinn Fein has been elected the new Lord Mayor of Belfast, replacing Jim Rodgers. The new deputy mayor David Browne of the UUP abstained rather than vote for the DUP’s Diane Dodds citing “personality reasons.” He also pointed out that since Hartley received two more votes than Diane Dodds, his voting for her would not have made any difference. Mrs. Dodds has accused him of “opportunism.”

Unionist unity seems unlikely and even cooperation some way off.

Incidentally did Alliance vote for Hartley?

  • percy

    Mr Hartley added: “It will be my aim as Lord Mayor to help develop our city’s political culture, away from a legacy of division towards civic and cultural diversity — to turn what divides us into a diversity that enriches our city and the lives of its citizens..”

    The political mould of Belfast was broken in 2002 when Sinn Fein’s Alex Maskey became its first republican First Citizen and the political house did not fall down – as predicted by some hard-line unionists.

    Turgon, that’s from
    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0602/breaking54.htm

    Interesting to note the difference in emphasis between your post and the above.

    Different strokes eh?

  • Incidentally did Alliance vote for Hartley?

    Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t have been elected Lord Mayor. And as Reg Empey was ‘indisposed’, the Shinners didn’t actually need Davy Browne’s abstention but they got it and Davy got the Deputy Mayoralty in return.

    Unionist unity seems unlikely and even cooperation some way off.

    I don’t know, when it came to the crunch, every single Unionist rowed in behind Davy Browne’s candidature for Deputy Mayor. The DUP could have even feigned protest by putting up their own candidate in the first round before rowing in beind Browne on the second ballot. But at the end of the day the DUP vote for any Unionist ahead of anyone else even if they’re being shafted in the process.

    I have no gripe with the Shinners voting for Davy Browne. It was smart politics on their part and they got a good deal. But the DUP were just pathetic, being led by the nose by one of the weakest Councillors in the City Hall.

    The DUP – leadership that’s working… out exactly what they point of them being there is. And failing.

  • Dewi

    Turgon – is your point being this is bad or good?

  • observer

    The DUP – leadership that’s working… out exactly what they point of them being there is. And failing.
    Posted by Sammy Morse on Jun 02, 2008 @ 10:35 PM

    I think you`l find, once again, it was the UUp who let the side down.

  • Dewi

    Oh Come on – Tom Hartley not exactly a combatant was he ? Here’s a chance to see real power sharing – looking forward to it.

  • observer

    I think its a fair enough not to vote for Diane Dodds on personality reasons, she’d be bloody unbearable as Lord Mayor

  • aquifer

    Tom Hartley has wide cultural interests and will make a great Mayor for all citizens of this great city. Dianne Dodds has worked consistently to build a niche for herself and makes a great Dianne Dodds.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Given that the unionists have a record of consistently supporting individuals linked to active loyalist paramilitary organizations which aren’t even on ceasefire, they’re hardly in a position to complain. And thank christ, for the first time, they didn’t make a song and dance out of it.

  • The Raven

    I think Hartley will be a great mayor – well…as much as Mayors in Northern Ireland can be. Great cultural background. Respected all over town.

    By the way – if I’d been David Browne, I’d have done the same thing. The UUP let no one but Dianne Dodds’ ego down.

    Anyway. Let’s not get too riled over this one. It’s a mayor. In Northern Ireland.

  • Mick Fealty

    This, surely, is where we at Slugger came in (scroll to the bottom)? Welcome to ‘2002 lite’!

  • observer

    #

    Given that the unionists have a record of consistently supporting individuals linked to active loyalist paramilitary organizations which aren’t even on ceasefire, they’re hardly in a position to complain. And thank christ, for the first time, they didn’t make a song and dance out of it.
    Posted by Comrade Stalin on Jun 02, 2008 @ 11:16 PM

    At least alliance are consistent in supporting any terrorist scumbag

  • PaddyReilly

    “A party spokesman revealed yesterday” (this is from some while back) “that the BBC had given him the names of two well-known republicans who had allegedly been warned by the police that they were under suspicion as informers. The Sinn Fein officer said when he approached the pair, they denied it. He named them as Tom Hartley, a former Belfast city councillor, and Richard “Dickie” Glenholmes, a former IRA operations officer.

    Glenholmes served 10 years in jail in Britain for attempting to spring Brian Keenan, a former IRA chief of staff, from Brixton prison using a hijacked helicopter. Glenholmes’s daughter, Eibhlin (Evelyn), is one of the IRA “on-the-run” terrorist suspects for whom Sinn Fein is seeking freedom from prosecution.

    Hartley, who was general secretary of Sinn Fein from 1984 to 1991, once led protests against the RUC. He has stepped back from a frontline position in Sinn Fein in recent years.”

  • I think you`l find, once again, it was the UUp who let the side down.

    No, I think you’ll find that there hasn’t been a Unionist majority in Belfast for 11 years. The Ulster Raj is over. Get with the programme. Horsetrading is the name of the game in Stormont, in the City Hall and in town halls across NI. Being outmanouevred by Davy Brown is not something to boast about.

    Given that the unionists have a record of consistently supporting individuals linked to active loyalist paramilitary organizations which aren’t even on ceasefire, they’re hardly in a position to complain.

    Exactly, Stalin, before you even think about how many UUP and PUP councillors are up to their oxters in paramilitarism. Before you even think that both the UUP and DUP are in coalition with the Shinners at Stormont and still can’t bring themselves to let one of the more progressive SF Councillors wear a chain around old peoples homes and community festivals for a year. Instead they’d rather inflict us with things like this.

  • observer

    Being outmanouevred by Davy Brown is not something to boast about. –

    Hardly outmanouered , he choose a republican over a Unionist and Sir Reg wasnt anywhere to be seen

  • observer

    ne of the more progressive SF Councillors –

    So hartley didnt support the murderer of innocent men, women and children carried out by the IRA? Very progresssive

  • Dewi

    Observer – one of the blokes who was critical in bringing it to an end. Or did you want it to continue?

  • observer

    #

    Observer – one of the blokes who was critical in bringing it to an end. Or did you want it to continue?
    Posted by Dewi on Jun 02, 2008 @ 11:45 PM

    Hardly , the provos were a spent force, riddled with informers..who said hartley was a spy lol

    He supported the shinners when the provos were at the worst. Nice and progressive mmmm see the alliance stand in awe of him!

  • At least alliance are consistent in supporting any terrorist scumbag

    Yup, those consistently anti-terrorist unionists who supported a UVF mayor when the UVF were butchering innocent Belfast people left right and centre!

    Thursday 17 February 1994
    Sean McParland (55), a Catholic civilian, was mortally wounded in a gun attack carried out by the Red Hand Commando (RHC), a cover name used by the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), while he was baby-sitting his four grandchildren in north Belfast.

    Thursday 7 April 1994
    Margaret Wright (31), a Protestant civilian, was badly beaten by a group of men, and then finally shot four times in the head, in a Loyalist band-hall in the Donegal Road area of Belfast. [She had been invited to the hall on the evening of 6 April 1994 and was then killed by Loyalists who believed that she was a Catholic.

    Thursday 28 April 1994
    James Brown (47), a Catholic civilian, was shot dead by the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) at his shop, Garmoyle Street, Docks, Belfast.

    Tuesday 17 May 1994
    Eamon Fox (42) and Gary Convie (24), both Catholic civilians, were shot dead by the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) at a building site on North Queen Street.

    Wednesday 1 June 1994
    The various anti-terrorist Unionist parties happily vote for the PUP’s Hugh Smyth as Lord Mayor, because we all know that people who shoot fenians aren’t really terrorists. Unless they’re the IRA.

    That’s just looking at Belfast – before we even think about the 76 year old grandmother the UVF offed in Coalisland, the 80-something man they butchered along with 5 others in Loughinislandm etc., etc. When it comes to terrorism, we can depend on Unionists to be absolutely consistent. Absolutely consistent in their double standards.

  • observer

    The various anti-terrorist Unionist parties happily vote for the PUP’s Hugh Smyth as Lord Mayor, because we all know that people who shoot fenians aren’t really terrorists. Unless they’re the IRA. –

    No theyre all terrorist bastards UvF, IRA etc, shoot them all, or is that too extreme for the alliance?

  • observer

    Absolutely consistent in their double standards.
    Posted by Sammy Morse on Jun 02, 2008 @ 11:51 PM

    You`re the one calling someone who supported the IRA at the height of its murdering camapaign a “progressive”

  • No theyre all terrorist bastards UvF, IRA etc, shoot them all, or is that too extreme for the alliance?

    Well, it was too extreme for the DUP and UUP who were happy to vote for the PUP at the height of the UVF’s murder campaign.

    Maybe you should take your gripes up with them?

  • observer

    Well, it was too extreme for the DUP and UUP who were happy to vote for the PUP at the height of the UVF’s murder campaign.

    Maybe you should take your gripes up with them?
    Posted by Sammy Morse on Jun 03, 2008 @ 12:01 AM

    you`re the one complaining about the UVF (although very silent on the provos i note)

  • Comrade Stalin

    observer,

    The point is reasonably straightforward. Alliance have never nominated an individual linked with an active paramilitary organization for public office. Unionism has, and has done so consistently throughout it’s own history. This is why your feigned opposition to terrorism rings hollow.

  • Dick Swett

    Erm Comrade Stalin and Gerry Lynch,

    The point is reasonably straightforward. Alliance have never nominated an individual linked with an active paramilitary organization for public office

    So the provos weren’t still killing people, robbing banks, smuggling et al after 2002?

    Ha! God I love you wee ‘ums and your crazy ideas!

  • jessica

    to percy (first post) – was that the same alex maskey who went on to lie about robert mccartney’s murder, who helped the sinn fein/ira leadership cover up the killing – is hartley in the same proud tradition of cross-community healing and political moderation!?? or are you just full of crap like all the chucks?

  • So the provos weren’t still killing people, robbing banks, smuggling et al after 2002?

    The UVF don’t have the two biggest drug dealers in Ireland on their pay roll? Take the orange tinted sunglasses off, sunbeam.

  • Dick Swett

    Gerry, I asked you a question, it is only polite to at least try to answer it.

    So I’ll ask again, were PIRA an active paramilitary organisation in 2002 when Alliance still voted for one of them as mayor?

    Simple yes/no will do nicely.

    🙂

  • 0b101010

    Come on now, we’ve had an IRA leader as Deputy First Minister for over a year now — without the sky falling on our heads, I may add — and some of you can’t get over a second SF mayor? A role that is largely ceremonial and almost entirely divorced from anything related to the question of nationality?

    If Alliance are carefully coordinating turns on the the merry-go-round, in their ill-conceived and naive notion of political fairness, perhaps they should consider how many old, white men they’ve helped hang the chain on each year.

  • Avadu

    It makes me laugh/despair all these posters defending uniunist and SF politicos when these assholes have constantly proven themselves to be assholes, who have both been in bed with thugs and murderers when it suited them and who try to fool a gullable electorate that they are decent guys who realy realy care about them.Get wise, they are all scoundrels, no more, no less. they will be laughing thier heads off at you whilst they sip champers in a 5 star hotel in Chicago

  • Comrade Stalin

    Dick,

    The IRA were observing a ceasefire recognized by the government and (subsequently) their political progress was underscored by the IMC.

    This is in marked contrast to supporting people who do not have a recognized ceasefire and whose ongoing commitment to paramilitarism is reflected by the IMC. That is what I meant when I said “active”.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Anyone know where it shows who/which party voted for each candidate.

  • ZoonPol

    I liked the comment made above by Dianne Dodds makes a great Dianne Dodds lol
    Politics isn’t really working if you have families domineering the theatre of Stormont: as an MLA and councillor would she be obliged to stand down as workload if she became Lord Mayor …
    Thank God there will be a law soon to morally tell these people that this is what the people want.

  • dewi

    Don’t know Sammy but Sf, Sdlp and Alliance would make the numbers about right.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Dewi,

    ta.

    ps All Blacks on Sat – remember you heard it here first – we’ll ‘ave ’em.

  • Delta Omega

    Don’t know why Diane is getting on her high horse so much – the DUP and SF are so joined at the hip nowadays that we won’t notice any difference between a DUP mayor and a SF one.

  • Insider

    The following had been agreed between the DUP and the Ulster Unionists.

    1. Complete UUP support for Lord Mayor position.

    2. Complete DUP support for Deputy Lord Mayor

    3. That would have produced 25 votes

    4. Rodger’s would have had the casting vote and then Diane would have had the casting vote for DLM

    5. Diane Dodds would have been elected as Lord Mayor and the UUP would have taken DLM

    What put the kibosh on the deal was the failure of the leader of the Ulster Unionist party to be in attendance at the meeting and the “no-vote” of David Browne which was handsomely rewarded with 14 Sinn Fein votes for Deputy.

    The DUP kept their side of the deal as agreed.

    The UUP can’t be trusted as far as you can throw them – but then we all knew that anyway.

  • Bigger Picture

    ZoonPol

    Diane Dodds is only a Councillor. She lost her West Belfast Assembly seat at the last election.

    Delta Omega

    “the DUP and SF are so joined at the hip nowadays that we won’t notice any difference between a DUP mayor and a SF one.”

    Have you been on a different planet recently? Or else a case of extreme short term memory loss because I jsut answered you on a different blog on the issues over the last couple of days. Try not to be soooo bitter and resentful. It gives you wrinkles 😉

  • Dick Swett

    Mr Stalin.

    The IRA were observing a ceasefire recognized by the government and (subsequently) their political progress was underscored by the IMC.

    Ceasefire my ass.

    Were PIRA still an active paramilitary organisation in 2002? I’m asking your opinion, not Blairs or Gerrys.

    Were SF/PIRA still murdering after 2002, smuggling, robbing banks, carrying out punishment beatings etc etc. ?

    Simple yes/no answer will do nicely. 🙂

    Im still waiting on Sammys (Gerrys) reply.

  • Paul

    Dick Swett, stop being a ‘Dick’

    You may be hurting today but it’s tough, Sinn Fein have as much right as any other party to avail of the Mayoral position, after all they are currently the 2nd largest party on the council.

  • Dec

    Funny how when I recently referred to some Unionist politicians trying to turn the clock back 40 years I was accused of resorting to stereotyping…ho hum.

  • Dick Swett

    Paul,

    Erm hurting? Me? Hmm

    If you actually read the sh*te that some APNI posters have said above?

  • Granni Trixie

    Some significances that seem to be missed:

    My reading last year was that Tom Hartley was out of favour with Sf during an internal witchhunt;did he not announce subsequently his intention not to contest the next Council elections?. So being chosen by SF as their rep for Mayor signals a golden handshake/kiss and make up.

    Dianne Dodd: Lost out as MLA at last election – a Mayoral role this year would up her profile and enhance her chances next time. Makes timely the call by DUP party bleaders at the weekend for greater cooperation with UU “to benefit the unionist people”.

    Tom Hartley is quizzed re “would he meet Royalty” but correct me if I mis-remember but when Lord mayor did Sammy Wilson not (rudely) refuse to meet the Dali Lama and Bill Clinton on behalf of the people of NI?

    Also,Dewi: on what basis do you claim that Hartley is “hardly a combatant”? He is a member of SF, has been in jail and if at last he has seen the light we should be grateful?

    But let’s us give him a fair wind – to see someone from a working class background do a good job as Lord Mayor makes visible the changes that are taking place in NI.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Sammy Morse
    I actually agree with all of your points about the UUP and PUP mayors,and the nonsense of being in Government with Shinners while objecting to them holding a symbolic post- but there’s one thing I think needs clarified, if you’d be so kind.

    Did Alliance support Qughie Smyth for lord mayor or McCoubrey for deppity? If they didn’t- as I seem to recall-why not? Surely if Maskey /Hartley are fit for office then so were the two loyalists?Or was it the size of the SF mandate that got them over the finishing line of respectability?

    If they did then I stand corrected.

  • Finbarr

    Jeez, you guys like a row.

    It’s only the Mayor of Belfast. What power does that position hold? Not much, if any.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Anbody know how many years it will be before there will be an outright Nationalist majority on the City Council?

    Are there boundary changes in the pipeline?

  • PaddyReilly

    The fact that SF lost a seat to Alliance after the McCartney incident seems to indicate that Alliance represents people who are not entirely happy with SF’s handling of this event. But being unhappy with the role of SF does not therefore make you an enthusiastic supporter of the UVF. Consequently power sharing and rotation are the order of the day. Unionists who think they can drag Alliance into a pan-Unionist front are mistaken.

    Nationalists are I think well aware that Alliance will not want to be part of a pan-Nationalist front to exclude Unionists. They don’t bother to try it on.

    Were PIRA still an active paramilitary organisation in 2002? I’m asking your opinion, not Blairs or Gerrys. Were SF/PIRA still murdering after 2002, smuggling, robbing banks, carrying out punishment beatings etc etc. ?

    Simple yes/no answer will do nicely.

    Take legal advice on this. Never answer a leading question, of which this is a blatant example. Never answer a complex question with a yes/no answer. Do not sign a contract with an etc in it. Do not give hearsay evidence, particularly about what other people were doing. Immediately object to shackling together of different persons/entities in a communal guilt, as in:-

    Was the UUP/DUP/UVF coalition still murdering people etc?

    Mrs McGuire spent half her life in jail because she allowed herself to be bullied into answering yes or no when the true answer was “I don’t know.”

  • Greenflag

    Mr Hartley, 62, said he would follow the example of former Sinn Féin Lord Mayor Alex Maskey who had laid a Remembrance Day wreath at the Cenotaph.

    “I will be trying to reflect the diverse political cultures here in Belfast… I will want to meet the different communities that exist in Belfast,” he told BBC News on Tuesday.

    “We will have to have a discussion about meeting royalty, but where I cannot represent the citizens of Belfast, they will be represented by David Browne.

    Mr Browne said: “I will be happy to take up any duties that Tom feels he is unable to attend.”

    Mr Hartley is only the second Sinn Fein councillor to become Belfast mayor, following Alex Maskey’s term in 2002.

    Well there you have it Mr Browne gets to kow tow to the royals and Mr Hartly gets to kow tow to the rest .

    Why all the fuss ?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Darth

    I don’t believe they did, on the basis that the IRA were on a recognised ceasefire (and at that point had been pretty well-behaved), while the UVF (in Hughie’s case) was still involved in political murders, as I’m sure the UDA were at the point McCoubrey was elected.

    At the time of Maskey’s election it was pretty touch and go for Alliance whether he’d be elected, but the decision was based around things like the SF mandate and the fact that the IRA campaign was largely over and Maskey’s election would help encourage them down the political road.

    Oviously it caused a fair bit of pain for the party, particularly for its ‘moderate unionist’ wing. Admittedly, there were the McCartney and Quinn murders and Northern Bank robbery later, but the slaughter that continued within loyalism was much greater.

    McCoubrey’s election nomination papers were being signed by someone who would go on to try and kill police; Maskey was on his way to sitting on the Policing Board.

    I realise people like yourself may disagree, but – based on the situation at the time and where progress was made since – in hindsight, I’m happy Alliance made the right decision.

  • Greenflag

    paddy reilly,

    ‘Mrs McGuire spent half her life in jail because she allowed herself to be bullied into answering yes or no when the true answer was “I don’t know.”

    The Spanish Inquisition used the fact that people did not eat pork or disliked it as evidence that they were in fact closet ‘jews’ /judaizers’ . So the answer to the question ‘ Do you like pork ‘ better not be ‘I don’t know’ for that answer would have clearly marked one out as a heretic /jew etc .

    When the wolf wants to eat the lamb it doesn’t much matter what the lamb answers.

  • PaddyReilly

    Anybody know how many years it will be before there will be an outright Nationalist majority on the City Council? Are there boundary changes in the pipeline?

    Well obviously nobody knows: but there will always be some idiot ready to offer an opinion. In 2005 the Nationalist block got 47,589 votes or 47.7% and the Unionist block 43,198 or 43.3%, with Alliance on 6.8% or 6,808. It wouldn’t take much of a shift to give the Nationalist block an outright majority, given the rapidity with which youthful Nationalists are displacing elderly Unionists in this city. All it would take, imho, would be an election. But don’t worry, the DUP are moving heaven and earth to ensure these are delayed for as long as possible, so there is no immediate chance of:

    And there, God love it, before me
    The grand City Hall stood in state
    With a tricolour flying above it
    And two Civic Guards at the gate.

  • Craoibh Rua

    I cannot see what the fuss is all about. Why Diane Dodds is getting her panties in a twist? Tom Hartley is but the latest in a line of unionist first citizens. Eagerly awaiting the arrival of Butcher Bush – he will grovel just like the rest of his careerist colleagues and makes the position of Walkerite ‘Gas & water’ socialists appear revolutionary!

  • As far as I can judge, I get the impression that Tom Hartley loves the City of Belfast, he knows all its nooks and crannies and its history.

    Whilst it is not a powerful position, unlike London’s mayor, it is mainly ceremonial and as such I cannot think of a better representative than Tom. As to the smears he has faced in recent years, unless someone knows otherwise and publishes what they know in a reputable source, they remain just that smears, and are of no importance.

  • Greenflag

    ‘What put the kibosh on the deal was the failure of the leader of the Ulster Unionist party to be in attendance ‘

    Where was he ? Does he have to give a reason for his absense or does Mr Browne get to be Lord Mayor next year ? SF share power with the DUP at Stormont so why not with the UUP on Belfast City Council?

    Sounds like politics to me . Nasty business of course – but as an ex FF TD said to me one time when I made a general accusation that politicians were wankers of the first degree !

    ‘That may well be ‘ came the reply but they are ‘necessary ‘ wankers for without them society could not function except through the barrel of a gun .

    He had a point then and still has .

  • PaddyReilly

    When the wolf wants to eat the lamb it doesn’t much matter what the lamb answers.

    This much is true, o Green. But I think the Spanish Inquisition has been given a bad press: when young I tended to think they were unremittingly wicked but since we have come to experience the negative effects of having a Muslim minority I am at least beginning to see where they were coming from. Islam is an organisation which encourages its adherents to seize power, whether they are in a majority or not. They do not always make convincing lambs.

    The defence may not convince the wolf, but to some extent it does give the lamb a chance to appeal to posterity. If you’re interested in that sort of thing. As you are an Atheist I don’t suppose it matters to you. Socrates, Jesus and Campion managed to put their soundbyte opportunity to good use.

    The correct answer to the Inquistion is, I really hate the taste of pork, but if you wish I will chew some to prove to you that I am a good Christian.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PaddyReilly,

    thanks for that – so from now on unless there is better relations between the quarefellahs in the current warring camps it will be a green mayor every time.

    You’ve rumbled me very aptly and poetically there.

  • Ian

    “If Alliance are carefully coordinating turns on the the merry-go-round, in their ill-conceived and naive notion of political fairness, perhaps they should consider how many old, white men they’ve helped hang the chain on each year. ”

    Last year SF put forward Tierna Cunningham, but she failed to take the mayoralship when the SDLP voted for the UUP’s Jim Rogers in return for their support for an SDLP deputy mayor.

    Anyone know why SF changed their candidate this year? They kept doggedly putting Maskey forward for years until he eventually took the post.

  • So now he can finally go to Poppy Day celebrations without getting slagged off by the boys in boiler suits, not like in the bad old days when he was made to by Gerry and the Peacemakers. Good thing the Catholics are getting their own aristocracy now.

  • mickd

    PaddyReilly wrote:

    “I think the Spanish Inquisition has been given a bad press: when young I tended to think they were unremittingly wicked but since we have come to experience the negative effects of having a Muslim minority I am at least beginning to see where they were coming from. Islam is an organisation which encourages its adherents to seize power, whether they are in a majority or not.”

    and earlier…

    “Does anyone else think Immediately object to shackling together of different persons/entities in a communal guilt, as in:-

    Was the UUP/DUP/UVF coalition still murdering people etc? ”

    Paddy ffs get a grip; the death toll in Iraq could well be over a million since 2003, and four million are refugees. See the point?

    PS I often enjoy reading Slugger, including your posts, but you just can’t say that because they’re Muslims.

  • Tom Hartley was reaching across the divide – and paying for it in spades – for a long time. He went to Islandbridge for the World War 1 commemoration ceremony when it was neither popular or profitable to do so and it may well have cost him a berth on the SF ticket in West Belfast for the Assembly Elections.

    His cemetery tours are the embodiment of that true republican spirit – celebrating all traditions equally. I have every confidence that he will be a great mayor of Belfast – unlike the unionist jobsworths that he succeeds who were not seen in the nationalist parts of town after their election.

  • PaddyReilly

    Paddy ffs get a grip; the death toll in Iraq could well be over a million since 2003, and four million are refugees.

    Maybe: but how much of this was caused by the Englezes/ Americanos and how much by the natives? I think the message that I’m trying to put across is that Muslims and other folk, like oil and water, don’t mix well. Islam contains within it a belief that you have a right and duty to seize power, whether you are a majority or a minority, because you have a mandate from God to do so in order to impose his law. It’s not a matter of imposing collective guilt: this doctrine is there and it will always re-emerge when there is sufficient manpower to implement it. Neither does it matter that 99 Muslims out of 100 are not interested: the one who is can, with modern technology, do sufficient damage.

    The Inquistion were working in an era before phone taps, CCTV, even before there were any police, and so the measures they had to take were all the more extreme.

    Consequently it is better for all concerned if unconverted Muslims are confined to Muslim countries, by and large: exceptions can be made for Baha’is, Ismaelis etc.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Concubhar O Liatháin

    Tombo does sound like he will make a good mayor – BUT – and I’m sure this has been mentioned many times the (black) comic posssiblities of someone connected to an organistion, one of whose main objectives was to kill people ( whether justified or not ) having a vested interest in their being a brisk trade in the cemetries are surely endless.

  • Did Alliance support Qughie Smyth for lord mayor or McCoubrey for deppity? If they didn’t- as I seem to recall-why not? Surely if Maskey /Hartley are fit for office then so were the two loyalists?

    Others have largely dealt with this point. In 2002 the IRA were still a paramilitary organisation with a low-level of activity, but in the process of ceasing activity, (which, despite McCartney and the Northern Bank, is a process that has essentially been completed). While the UVF and, especially UDA, were still tearing the arse out of the peace process, largely by shooting one another and intimidating other Prods. In that context, the judgement call to support Maskey but not McCoubrey or Smyth was the right one.

    At present, I would have no trouble supporting the PUP for either of the top posts but would still have a little trouble with McCoubrey.

    The same goes for the wonderfully pornographically named Dick Swett’s point. Of course the IRA were still a paramilitary organisation in 2002, but were travelling down a road of ceasing to be one. So are the UVF today. If you want a party who will hang all terrorists, UVF and IRA alike, I suggest you go and form your own party, as all the Unionist parties, TUV included have large memberships with deep loyalist links.

  • mickd

    PaddyReilly, thanks for the honest answer. I’m just going to strongly disagree with you and leave it there, as I feel like I’ve butted in on another conversation.

    regards

  • PaddyReilly

    MickD,
    I recall reading about two neighbouring countries in the Middle Ages, one of which was Georgia, the other a Muslim country. It was understood that if you got into trouble in your own country you could gain asylum in the neighbouring one, provided you converted to the appropriate religion. Loads did.

    This sensible system has been maintained in most Islamic countries to this day: from Pakistan to Morocco it always the case that kuffar minorites are diminishing, under pressure to convert or leave. Unfortunately, the UK and other European countries think that they have moved on into a post-religious age, and consquently allowed a Muslim minority to built up to the point where it constitutes a threat.

    Of course, if your nearest and dearest is a Muslim, I quite understand that you may not think so: but if your nearest and dearest was killed by a suicide bomber you will do.

    As to inconsistencies in my statements, I do not see them as being there. I would strongly discourage anyone who wanted to bomb the Falls/Shankill on the grounds of collective guilt. Equally, I would discourage the same person from walking down either road wearing the wrong football shirt, or campaigning for the wrong party. A people who are not collectively guilty may, because of the “It only takes one in a hundred” rule, be collectively dangerous.

  • Dewi

    Grannie Trixie

    “Also,Dewi: on what basis do you claim that Hartley is “hardly a combatant”? He is a member of SF, has been in jail and if at last he has seen the light we should be grateful?”

    Didn’t realise he’d been a prisoner – when and for what do you know?

  • Tombo does sound like he will make a good mayor – BUT – and I’m sure this has been mentioned many times the (black) comic posssiblities of someone connected to an organistion, one of whose main objectives was to kill people ( whether justified or not ) having a vested interest in their being a brisk trade in the cemetries are surely endless.

    Indeed Sammy. However it’s worth pointing out that among the graves featured in the Mayor’s tour is that of the Cunningham family, founders of the Unionist party and, also, acclaimed as the financiers of the Larne Gunrunning episode. So perhaps there’s more than one organisation with a trace of death on its hands….

    Tom Hartley’s graveyard tours are beyond and above petty ‘provincial’ politics. They are a genuine highlight in any trip to Belfast and far better than anything on offer in terms of guided tours by whatever organistion it is that promotes the city….

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Dewi,

    “for what”

    New additions for the cemetry tours perhaps?

  • Dewi

    http://www.xanga.com/wildirish24/420216709/item.html

    That article implies no criminal convictions.

  • Greenflag

    Concubhar O Liatháin,

    ‘ His cemetery tours are the embodiment of that true republican spirit – celebrating all traditions equally.’

    Aye there is that 🙁 I personally prefer life to death but then I’m not going anywhere when the game’s up unlike all the saints and sinners in the graveyard . Whats that they say about politicians being ready to lay down your life for their country ?

    ‘I have every confidence that he will be a great mayor of Belfast – unlike the unionist jobsworths that he succeeds who were not seen in the nationalist parts of town after their election.’

    Perhaps -he’s certainly no worse than what came before and probably better than most .

  • PaddyReilly

    From now on it will be a green mayor every time.

    No, SF and the SDLP are committed to rotation of office. Are there any recorded instances of UUP/DUP refusing this? Possibly Derry, but it didn’t last. But it will be a Green sponsored mayor. But ‘from now on’ does not mean from now on, it means from some indeterminate time in the future, 2011 if we’re lucky.

    Jeez, you guys like a row. It’s only the Mayor of Belfast. What power does that position hold? Not much, if any.

    True, the amount of strife created in any organisation is often inversely proportionate to that organisation’s significance, but you have to start somewhere. If you don’t put your all into your candidacy for IIIB’s mock election, they you won’t show sufficient enthusiasm to get onto Ballysloshamuckery’s parish council, let alone higher office.

    So it’s all symbolic, but the symbolism of a SF Mayor of Belfast is not good. For Unionists. It marks a significant milestone in the transition from a system where the opinions of Nationalists are of no import or consequence, to one where those of Unionists are of no import or consequence.

  • Greenflag

    paddyreilly,

    ‘The correct answer to the Inquistion is, I really hate the taste of pork, but if you wish I will chew some to prove to you that I am a good Christian.’

    That answer might not be enough to save your bacon pr 🙂

    Your answer would be interpreted by the Inquisition wolves as ‘ this bastard’s too clever by half -he just wants to avoid torture and is thus telling a lie and we all know that you can’t trust a jew anyway and they would sell their mother’s bodies for a few shekells ‘
    Let’s put him to the question and he’ll confess he’s a jew and bobs your uncle case closed

    ‘As you are an Atheist I don’t suppose it matters to you.’

    On the contrary it matters . I fear all unreason based on religion and particularly priests/ministers / rabbis/ shamen /astrologers/ imams etc etc having any more political power than any private citizen . The denomination only matters in regard to the fact that the Islamic ‘Jihadists’ are were Christians were several centuries ago . Do remember that 7 million Germans were killed in 16th and 17th centuries war between Reformists and Catholics in that country . France also suffered from internal religious wars .

    Nowadays most Germans and French don’t get out of bed on a Sunday to go to any church . Islamic fundamentalist extremism has been compounded and made worse by western political interference in those countries .

  • Robbie

    Someone earlier was talking about ‘families not being good for politics’, in relation to Diane Dodds. I’m inclined to agree. She doesn’t seem the brightest of the DUP crop. But if you want families in Northern Ireland politics, look no further than the Maskey family, who seem to have minions spread over Belfast: at least three individual councillors, not to mention all those from this clan involved in the McCartney murder smear/cover up. Why do people complain when Paisleys and Dodds have their families involved, but not Maskeys?

    Democracy, fairness, nepotism, Republican? Not really.

    The old adage about pinning a tricolour/any given flag to a donkey and the same people voting in large numbers for it – minus brains – comes to mind.

  • Greenflag

    paddy reilly,

    ‘Consequently it is better for all concerned if unconverted Muslims are confined to Muslim countries, by and large ,

    Too late paddy 🙁

    Now that Paisley has gone the blue skies of Ulster will have to be replaced .News just in could be just what the doctor (no pun) ordered

    ‘NORTHERN IRELAND WEATHER HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY DECLARED MUSLIM’

    Partly Sunni, but mostly Sh’ite 🙁

  • Greenflag

    paddy reilly,

    ‘Consequently it is better for all concerned if unconverted Muslims are confined to Muslim countries, by and large ,

    Too late paddy 🙁

    Now that Paisley has gone the blue skies of Ulster will have to be replaced .News just in could be just what the doctor (no pun) ordered

    ‘NORTHERN IRELAND WEATHER HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY DECLARED MUSLIM’

    Partly Sunni, but mostly Sh’ite 🙁

  • Greenflag

    paddy reilly,

    ‘Consequently it is better for all concerned if unconverted Muslims are confined to Muslim countries, by and large ,

    Too late paddy 🙁

    Now that Paisley has gone the blue skies of Ulster will have to be replaced by new weather .News just in could be just what the doctor (no pun) ordered

    ‘NORTHERN IRELAND WEATHER OFFICIALLY DECLARED MUSLIM’

    outlook – Partly Sunni, but mostly Sh’ite 🙁

  • Greenflag

    Moderator ,

    Please delete nos 23 and 24 above .
    Reason triplication and keyboard is shite 🙁

  • Dewi

    Greenflag – you are have a nerve issue in your left hand. It’s related to a childhood incident – to achieve harmony you need to did deep….

  • Dewi

    dig deep – I have a nerve issue also

  • PaddyReilly

    Correct Dewi. Greenflag, you need to repartition your brain.

  • Granni Trixie

    Dewi: Perhaps I ought to have been more careful re identifying TH as having been in jail – I thought it was common knowledge and an element of his identity. I was basing it on remembering someone who used to visit him in jail in the late 70s or early 80s – now when I reflect further, I’m wondering if he was interned or perhaps ‘lifted’ for weeks or days and either not charged or on remand?
    As I am not sure and because on reflection it seems to matter,I regret mentioning what may be factually inaccurate. Would be happy if someone is able to clarify or correct these facts.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Grannietrixie, Dewi,

    anyone in Sinn Fein during the ‘war’ presumably worked to support the twin strategy of ballot box and armelite – whether someone actually went to jail or not is presumably irrelavant to most unionists as they were actively supporting ‘terrorism’ – as they see it. To most nationalists, given that they voted for SF, a line was drawn under these issues with GFA and therfore should not be used against someone now but to some/many previous involvement in the struggle is actually a big plus.

  • Dewi

    Sammy – wasn’t going to use against or in favour of anything – was just surprised. (You are digging huge holes with your Rugby comments – I won’t quote them back to you …honest !)

  • Dewi

    Funny from Irish Times
    I quote:

    “Mr Hartley added: “It will be my aim as Lord Mayor to help develop our city’s political culture, away from a legacy of division towards civic and cultural diversity — to turn what divides us into a diversity that enriches our city and the livers of its citizens..” ”

    Spot the deliberate mistake!

  • Dewi
  • Doctor Who

    IWSMTDI

    “Anybody know how many years it will be before there will be an outright Nationalist majority on the City Council? Are there boundary changes in the pipeline?”

    If there where boundary changes perhaps they should include the half of East Belfast which is now in Castlereagh council.

    It seems to me preposterous that if you live on the upper Cregah Road you are Castlreagh but if you live in Poleglass you´re Belfast. Belfast council includes all of West and North Belfast, but parts of South and East are elsewhere.

    The new super council proposals should have almalgamated Castlreagh and Belfast councils. The current boundaries of Belfast council heavily favour the Nationalist electorate.

    Paddy Reilly

    Stop your day dreaming and get back to work.

  • Greenflag

    Dewi ,

    ‘you have a nerve issue in your left hand ‘

    Nerves ? What are they ?

    ‘ and the livers of its citizens.’

    The answer to the question ‘is life worth living ?’

    It all depends on the liver 🙂

    paddyreilly,

    References to my brain are not cricket whereas references to your own would by necessity have to be below the belt and therefore I will make no further comment re this matter 🙂

  • RepublicanStones

    I do hope Mr Hartley has been putting in some practice for his ‘Jumping over human Tomato’ attempt. Which i think should be an anuual event.

  • RepublicanStones

    *annual*

  • Granni Trixie

    For the record: Turns out my impression that TH had been in jail in the 70s was correct – see Jim Gibney in his over the top eulogy in today’s Irish News.

  • Dewi

    Granni – got a link ? If not when and what for?

  • PaddyReilly

    The new super council proposals should have almalgamated Castlreagh and Belfast councils. The current boundaries of Belfast council heavily favour the Nationalist electorate.

    Oh dear how dreadful. The Ministry of Gerrymandering should be given a severe rap over the knuckles. But could I interest you in a new Belfast which corresponds exactly to the 4 Belfast constituencies? These, as you may have noticed, return 12 Nationalist, 2 Alliance, 1 Loyalist and 9 Unionist MLAs, a very auspicious distribution, and one which one hopes proximately to see reproduced in the smaller Council area.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PaddyReilly,

    are there proposd boundary changes in the pipeline or does it yet have to be decided upon?

  • PaddyReilly

    For constituencies yes. For Local Government Councils, it appears to have been decreed that there could be no boundary changes, except where two (or more) councils were amalgamated. The reason for this would be the disruption caused if existing boundaries were moved.

    As Dr Who correctly states, it was not proposed to amalgamate Belfast and Castlereagh. One reason for this is that Belfast is already so large and populous, to increase its size any further really detracts from the idea of ‘local government’.

  • BonarLaw

    PaddyReilly

    you are wrong about the new council boundaries as the Bill provides for a Commissioner to name the new councils and determine their limits. Any potential changes are limited with up to five wards being capable to being added or removed from the 11 areas made up from amalgamations.

    You are also wrong about why Belfast is to be confined within illogical but Nationalist friendly borders.