A Unionist Irish Language Act

This is a blog aimed at stimulating debate and does not really even reflect my own views on this subject which are quite fluid.

In addition these views do not in any way reflect TUV policy. By the way, I am not so deluded to presume to be in a policy making role: I am sometimes consulted on the policy for the evening meal and that is about the limit of my policy making. However, the Irish Language is something we should ponder. It may well be that we as unionists come down on the side of opposing an ILA but I do think we need to have considered reasons for so doing and not have opposition as a knee jerk reaction.
Following the St. Andrew’s Agreement there was a requirement to have an Irish Language Act. One of the self proclaimed victories for the DUP has been to prevent this by Poots simply not bringing anything forward. That may well be the best unionist strategy. However, are there any other options for unionists and in which case would they be to unionism’s benefit or detriment?

Of course the first reaction tends in unionist circles to be Irish language: Bad. This is the language of the murderers of our kith and kin. The language spoken at the funerals of those terrorists who died, the language spoken by SF members as a kind of annoy the Prods mantra, the language used by Ruane to avoid answering questions for as long as possible. The most classic comment is of course: Every word spoken in Irish is a bullet fired in the cause of Irish freedom or whatever other nonsense was spouted.

However, think briefly on this. Irish is actually just a language, a means of communication. It is structurally very similar to Scots Gaelic spoken by those excellent fundamentalist Prods in the Outer Hebrides. It is the language written in by our illustrious leader on slugger: Mick Fealty and no one apart from the utterly barking would call him a republican terrorist or cheerleader. Other parts of the UK have local languages which do not necessarily coincide with the desire to break their parts of the union. Some Tories in Wales speak Welsh.

As such what might unionists gain from an Irish language act?

Well if we stall forever might (just might) the British government impose one on us. I know it is a devolved power but remember: Westminster is still sovereign. If there was one in place (and one to our liking) how likely would Westminster be to bother to change it?

Secondly a unionist inspired ILA might completely out manoeuvre SF. It would at a stroke defeat a significant amount of the MOPEry on the subject. It might actually contain very little of substance. I am sure it could be written in such a way as to produce very little change, yet it would have been done. If SF tried to modify it we could simply veto such a move. Yet they could not be seen to block the Act in the first place. Conceivably it might even undermine SF’s claim to be the champion of Irish.

Finally it would be a reasonable way to look reasonable and be seen to be reaching out without necessarily compromising.

Of course all that is very well but I am sure that SF would simultaneously denounce the act, manage to indulge in a good MOPE and say that it was a sign of unionists weakening in their resolve to maintain the union. Also any future SF culture minister would very likely use the ILA to impose more and more political Irish via ministerial decree hence, by passing the mutual veto.

As such, and actually a little reluctantly I am inclined to agree that Poots is probably wisest, from a unionist viewpoint, to deal with this issue by studiously ignoring it. It may amaze people but on this I do wish there was some mechanism by which a sensible and honourable compromise could be achieved.

Now I will leave unionists to denounce me as a traitor to the cause and nationalists to denounce be for being an evil bigot. Do have fun.

  • Debbie

    ‘Just basically everyone in Ireland come to a consensus on Irishness’.

    Consul thanks. This would involve a national debate between two states, and leaves out the dispora. I think it would anger those of ethnic Irish extraction who live elsewhere if this were based purely on geography.

    Nationhood/culture in your argument is constructed based on geography, and not everyone sees it that way. And of course ‘natural identity’ if you base it on ethnicity as I think you do, would also contribute towards problems if ‘cultural’ identity was based on geography. Do you see my problem with your argument?

  • consul

    Greenflag

    >>they are somewhat idealistic in at least one area.<< Yeah idealism is one of the main themes in the post and trust me I'm not naive about the whole thing. And you're right neither Ireland as a whole or NI specifically has a Scottish atmosphere, I was just offering it up as a template to show that the differences in Ireland don't have to produce the atmosphere that it currently does here.

  • percy

    Always tune in to H & M; predictably your offering DV will be to selfishly exploit the pain, and misery of others, for your own narrow little hate-filled agenda.

    Then run back to your little house of horrors
    ( ATW ) to lap up praise from fools who glory in your false heroism.

  • Greenflag

    Consul,

    ‘I was just offering it up as a template to show that the differences in Ireland don’t have to produce the atmosphere that it currently does here.’

    You got that almost right 🙂 – ‘the differences in NORTHERN Ireland (perceived,otherwise, or mythical) don’t have to produce the ‘atmosphere’ there – but they do. If politics (constitutional) were not directly implicated I would say that a watering down of green and orange ‘differences’ would be inevitable given a few years of peace and some progress. For now I think the NI politicians have to be extra careful that we don’t ‘go forward to the past ‘ by trying too hard to ‘go back to the future’.

    It’s a high wire act no question.

  • consul

    >>Nationhood/culture in your argument is constructed based on geography, and not everyone sees it that way. And of course ‘natural identity’ if you base it on ethnicity as I think you do, would also contribute towards problems if ‘cultural’ identity was based on geography. Do you see my problem with your argument?<< Nationhood/culture in my argument is constructed based on history rather than geography. Unionists are a huge part of Irish history. They have spoken of creating a common identity with northern nationalists. What I'm saying is that seeing as all Irish nationalists have a common identity; with northern nationalists being the tip of the iceberg, the bit that you can see while the population of the Republic are the main body of the iceberg under sea-level if you like, out of sight; then in order to create a common identity with northern nationalism, unionism perhaps should seek to form a common identity with Irish nationalism as a whole. The political situation would not need to change and as such unionists would not not need to compromise their political goals one iota.

  • DM

    Would I be right in saying that Ulster Irish and Scots Gaelic are very similar?

  • truly awful thing to say.

    I thought jo’s and percy’s remarks were off base until I read this posted on biased bbc. How awful.

    Saturday, April 26, 2008
    David Vance #

    HIBERNIANISATION. It’s my view that the BBC plays ‘an active role in the “greening” of Northern Ireland and I have commented here before on stories that run on the Northern Ireland portal which have NOTHING to do with Northern Ireland. This evening the LEAD story on BBC NI concerns a house fire in the Republic of Ireland. On what basis has such an event ANY relevance to Northern Ireland? None. But the BBC is determined to use the Northern Ireland site on a 32 county basis and that, my friends, is a clear political bias.
    Labels: northern ireland’

  • consul

    >>don’t have to produce the ‘atmosphere’ there – but they do<< We should always live in hope for a better day GF 🙂 No matter how the constitutional issue turns out, I think they (people in NI) should strive to improve relations over time. I was watching a news report a few weeks ago about rising sectarian tensions and more peace walls in Belfast than ever before. It showed interviews of different people saying they couldn't see the walls coming down in their lifetimes and they were only in their thirties and forties. Deeply depressing viewing and it struck me that as long as people accepted it would never change. You have to think positive on these things it seems to me and be proactive rather than accepting defeat and allowing it to fester for another generation. The road would be long and maybe hard but hopefully rewarding.

  • consul

    DM

    I think Irish and Scots Gaelic are probably off-shoots of the same languuage.

  • sammaguire

    Somebody mentioned the diaspora. Came across this website if any of you are interested.

    http://www.seventymillion.org/

  • DM

    Consul – thanks. Interesting the comparison with Italian and Spanish, I have a spanish speaking friend who told me once how she spent some time talking to an Italian without realising they were talking different languages, such was the crossover in the two languages.

  • sammaguire

    I see some comedian has registered as being on Rockall!!

  • consul

    DM

    lol and I believe that Spanish and Portugese are also very similar-along with French and Italian these I think are all descendants of Latin.

  • Dewi

    “You can’t force a language upon people, especially not in urban areas”

    These bastards pretty successful

    “When you say ‘they’ are determined – who do you mean?” – The PNV

  • Dewi

    “lol and I believe that Spanish and Portugese are also very similar-along with French and Italian these I think are all descendants of Latin.”

    Yep – Romance languages along with Catalan, Occitan, Romanian, Sardinian and Sicilian.

  • DM

    Well they obviously weren’t Dewi were they – look at the resentment it caused and the subsequent revival of the Welsh language.

    The PNV do not hold any sway over the 800,000 Basques outside of the Basque province – indeed the language in Navarra (particularly the north) remains strong despite the opposition of the conservative government.

  • Dewi

    “The PNV do not hold any sway over the 800,000 Basques outside of the Basque province – indeed the language in Navarra (particularly the north) remains strong despite the opposition of the conservative government.”

    Oh no – DM – you have now made me spend the next 2 hours on Basque admin,government and language policy – I wanted to watch Match of the Day mun!

  • DM

    Haha never worry, I wanted an early night myself for the Grand Prix tomorrow!

  • Dewi
  • Jo

    “Saturday, April 26, 2008
    David Vance # ”

    Somehow its part of Beeb *balance” to read this sort of shite. I suspect that Mark Adair believe giving people like Vance airtime constitutes balance. He will have another think coming. Where are the guns you financed, David Vance? This isnt 1912 you know.

  • RG Cuan

    Eskerrik Asko/Diolch Dewi, never came across that site before.

    Would I be right in saying that Ulster Irish and Scots Gaelic are very similar?

    Yes. Any Irish Gaelic speakers – not just in Ulster – could become resonably fluent in Scottish Gaelic after a few weeks of classes. And vice versa.

    Ample records subsist which show that Antrim (and Down) Gaelic was more akin to Scots than Irish.

    I take it you mean Scottish Gaelic. And because Antrim, Down etc. are on the island of Ireland most people would classify their dialects as Irish Gaelic.

    It’s all the same language at the end of the day.

    ________

    And Irish is getting on pretty well without an Acht at the moment. We now have more people in NI using the language on a daily basis at any time since the foundation of this jurisdiction. As certain people realise that the North’s indigenous tongue is just a language their biased viewpoints will mellow and increased recognition will come in time.

  • Dewi

    Cool it Jo

  • Dewi

    Leave it to the morning and spend the rest of the night researching Basque linguistic policies like the rest of us:) LOL

  • Dewi

    Within the area under discussion, then, nearly 53% of all school students study half or more of the curriculum through
    the medium of Basque.

    For us Basque geeks

  • RepublicanStones

    Hey David Pants…sorry Vance, 2 requests for an account to your minor ‘Tangled Web’ site and you seem unwilling, i wonder why that is? Is it because I do not have a problem with people who have a better tan than myself, or maybe you just hate opposing views. either way, your site could do with the hits, after all, threads that average 7 comments are not exactly chock’a’block !
    I might even order a copy of that book of yours.

  • Jo

    You pay him for his views. Send the invoice to his home address, if you coud be bothered. If u think reading his views (highlighted above) worth reading, fair enough.

    Personally I resent paying to read the views of someone who thinks the BBC as being so biased as to not represent their view.

  • sammaguire

    Meet your fellow Geek Dewi. Was doing a bit of research on Cornish and Cornish Nationalism recently. The similarities between Irish and Scots Gaelic were discussed on this earlier on. How similar are Cornish and Welsh? Read on one website that some Cornish people support Welsh rugby team rather than England.

  • Dewi

    “Read on one website that some Cornish people support Welsh rugby team rather than England.”

    They just can’t agree on a common written language which is pretty sad.
    It’s easier for Irish people to understand Scots Gaelic than for us to understand Cornish. Terrible effect of in-migration is that Cornish kids get bullied for indigineous accents in schools in Cornwall.

    But: Good news

    And: That’s pretty cool

  • Dewi

    http://www.mebyonkernow.org/?q=news/140

    And there’s our heroes

  • Dewi
  • sammaguire

    Ha! Ha! We’ll have to look after this Celtic little brother of ours, Dewi! Don’t think the English will. Hitting the sack…good night!

  • McKelvey

    (PaddyReilly) Ample records subsist which show that Antrim (and Down) Gaelic was more akin to Scots than Irish.

    It is more like “is” than “was” per se. Donegal Irish is still linguistically closer to Hebridean Scottish than it is to Connemara Irish, which in turn is closer to Donegal Irish than it is to Kerry Irish. Scottish and Irish are variants of the same language, their categorization into separate languages is political in nature and not linguistic – rather like the Scandinavian languages.

    As far as Irish being too moncultural, I would think the variation amongst Irish speakers who may support Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail, SDLP, Alliance,the PDs etc is as great as the variation between Scottish speakers who may support “Làboraich, Libearalaich Deamocrataich, Tòraidhich, Nàiseantaich”, n’est pas?

  • headlines

    Headlines! stop press!! I saw catholics in a shop in Sandy Row. I called the police but they said there was nothing that they could do about it.But all is not yet lost.We still have ITV i mean UTV hmm TUV VUT well of them take your pik mr Botha lololol.

  • Republican Stones,

    You have exactly the same right to register as anyone else on ATW and assuming you know how to email you will be registered. I have received no such emails from you but then again, I wonder why you wish to register with a site that you so obviously dislike?

    Glad to hear you don’t have a problem with people with a tan, mine is just fading.

    Jo,

    The comment you made reference David Calvert is eequally repellent and I am disappoined that too has not been removed by the moderator as it is actionable. Mr Calvert was almost murdered by IRA assassins and yet you think this is a reason to darken his character. You really are verminious.

  • headlines

    But then you are a policeman. lolololol

  • PaddyReilly

    IIRC, Antrim Irish used such characteristically Scottish words as ‘achadh’ (field), ‘allt’ (stream) and monadh (mountain) and possibly even ‘sabaid’ (fight) which do not feature in the Gaelic of any of the children of the revival that I have met. The negative ‘cha’ (instead of ‘ní’) I do hear, as that is characteristic of Donegal.

    The difference between Irish and Scottish Gaelic is much of a muchness with the difference between Irish and Scottish English, if by the latter you mean Lallans as Rabbie Burns would have written it, or braid Doric.

  • Ty

    Jo, i have asked Mr Vance for an account for his ‘Tangled Web’, yet he refuses to supply me with one. Im pretty sure my spelling isn’t that poor, so im at a loss, have you aquired one?
    I mean lord knows, his shite…sorry, site could do with the hits.

    Republican stones David pulled my account twice. Firstly he pulled it when the update of the site I tried to undertake failed, I forwarded him £100 for the inconvenience, which my husband told him we could ill afford. He returned it. The second time was recently, when I had a disagreement with another over spelling, lol.
    Don’t bother asking it’s not worth it. He knew I wasn’t trolling, he knew exactly who I was which was a nationalist, therefore he got rid. There was no need to pull my account on either occassion.
    I told him about a different way to organise his blog which would cost around £10 per year, I think he intends to do that, but I was there on sufferance which was a pity. I’d never ask again for him to re-instate the account, he pulled it for no good reason.

    Thats my last word on the subject.

  • Ty

    Ooops he also returned the £10 I sent him for his book before he pulled my account the second time, I think he thought since I’d joked about a returns policy I wanted it back. Then he pulled the account.

  • Kathleen,

    Your account was not pulled because you were “a republican” and you know that well. There are other republican minded posters on ATW who contribute civilly and without the aggro which you brought.

    I have not taken so much as one penny from you and would be obliged if you cease communicating with me.

  • Ty

    I have not taken so much as one penny from you

    Thats not true. First I gave you £20, then £100 and then £20, you returned £120, forthe reasons given above. Different points of view bring argument, and as to the correspondence, you yourself have been quite good at it. Infact in one series of e mails you told me you were off in hotel rooms etc and away from home and very down and how trolls were pushing you away from blogging etc…

    You were quite a prolific corresponder yourself David, I certainly replied, as you did, and sent a few as you did. If you had objections all you had to do was say – which you didn’t.

  • Ty

    ‘Your account was not pulled because you were “a republican” and you know that well.’

    Now that is amusing. I had a different point of view to most others, and you have no accomodation for that. You have no local women, and a very few nationalists/republicans, and I mean very few.

    Most of the other republican minded posters were not from NI, but the republic and you lost another local last night for similar reasons.

    Sorry I wasn’t ‘generosity personified’, but there you go…..

    Glad the correspondence has stopped.

  • RepublicanStones

    Mr Vance, i just emailed u again on Tangled… ref an account.
    And as regards the money issue, maybe you shouldn’t have splashed out on such a colourful exterior for your new book, and would then be able to refund Ty.

  • Ty

    RS I wasn’t looking refunded. I was explaining why my account was pulled, and the issues I was having with him. I don’t want to get involved in a heated discussion with David Vance on any issue. I’m quite happy with what I am doing. As for correspondence he e mailed me only yesterday, if he had a problem he ought to have said. Thats it.
    Good luck on your time there. Fingers crossed for you. Hope you last.

    Please I want to leave this issue now.

  • Greenflag

    Jo,

    ‘David Vance? This isnt 1912 you know.’

    For Vance and people like him it will always be 1690 . I’m trying to imagine the headlines of a Vance TV news broadcast’

    Vance TV ,

    Good evening and here is the news

    Reports from our correspondent in Londonderry are confirming there is no Irish Republic . It has ceased to exist that is if it ever did exist which is now seriously indoubt .

    Perhaps Vance misses the old BBC headlines like
    ‘Bomb explosion kills people at Remembrance Day Ceremony ‘
    ‘Miami Showband members executed in cold blood by Loyalist masked gunmen’ etc

    There’s just no pleasing some people eh ?

  • Greenflag

    Consul

    ‘We should always live in hope for a better day GF :-)’

    It beats the alternative .

    ‘No matter how the constitutional issue turns out, I think they (people in NI) should strive to improve relations over time.’

    As well as pay the mortgage , educate the kids and save for retirement and enjoy a hobby or two and some travel . Time is always short and life moves on . And there’s more to life or should be than going out of one’s way to be especially nice to a Jaffa or Fenian simply because they’re one of them ?

    ‘I was watching a news report a few weeks ago about rising sectarian tensions and more peace walls in Belfast than ever before. ‘

    I read that report too and even worse I read something the other day about the Iraqis ‘learning’ from Belfast . As I write the Americans are now building 18 foot walls around Sadr City and Fallujah .

    ‘showed interviews of different people saying they couldn’t see the walls coming down in their lifetimes and they were only in their thirties and forties.’

    Many if not most would have grown up with the Walls . It gave them a real sense of security. Ask any Catholic or Protestant family in parts of Belfast and they’ll tell you the wall may be an eyesore but it was better than another trip to the cemetry .

    ‘Deeply depressing viewing and it struck me that as long as people accepted it would never change.’

    I have a view on this aspect but I don’t have time to post it now perhaps tomorrow.

    ‘You have to think positive on these things it seems to me and be proactive rather than accepting defeat’

    Well yes of course sunny side up and all that 🙂

    ‘and allowing it to fester for another generation.’

    The scabs are still in place . It’ll be a while before they fall off and there’s still a risk they can open up again . In fact there are a few on both sides who would welcome it sad to say .

    ‘The road would be long and maybe hard’

    Will be long but even a long road has a turning especially on this island 🙂

    ‘ but hopefully rewarding’

    Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes 🙁 Occassionally the triumph of the human spirit brings us to a new awareness and hope for the future . Not much to rely on I know, but that and hard work and a sense of humour should pull us all through..

  • RG Cuan

    PADDYREILLY

    I, and others of my generation, use cha becuase this was used in our own areas, not because it’s also used in parts of Donegal.

    And Achadh is common to many dialects, Achadh na Cloiche in Tír Eoghain, Achadh an Iúir in An Cabhán, Achadh Réidh i nGaillimh.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I think Irish and Scots Gaelic are probably off-shoots of the same languuage.’

    Scots Gaelic is derived from the Ulster Irish that was spoken in that province in the 5th century AD and is closely related to present day Donegal Irish and to a lesser extent Connaught and Munster Irish . If I read Scots Gaelic I can understand most of it. When it comes to the spoken language a Donegal Gaelic speaker will understand more simply because of accent, idioms.
    A Scotsman from the Western Isles I knew had a mother (even the Scots have mothers) who could not speak any English . His friend who was a Donegal Irish speaker was the only ‘foreigner’ with whom his mother could converse. Later his friend told him he could understand about 95% of what his mum was saying .

  • Greenflag,

    Vance TV sounds a great idea. Wonder can I get 3 billion to finance it just like the BBC?

    Also as regards the Enniskillen bombing, I’d like to say those who organised it behind bars for their inhumanity meanwhile republicans smile and vote them into power. Morally bankrupt, you see, and squealing every time this is pointed out.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    But to be sensible, what is the point of de-Gaelicising a nation that you have conquered by means of brutalisation, bribery and mockery and then starting out to reintroduce it and give it financial support.Once a language is deemed inferior by the occupiers of a country, it will be impossible to restore it’s status.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Also as regards the Enniskillen bombing, I’d like to say those who organised it behind bars for their inhumanity meanwhile republicans smile and vote them into power. Morally bankrupt, you see, and squealing every time this is pointed out.’

    I suppose you think the american electorate are morally banrupt for making Dubya a two-term president, what with his illegal invasion and the many thousands of Iraqi civilians he is responsible for sending to meet their maker?
    Wait, this is David Vance we’re talking with, you propbably think each republican voter deserves a medal.

  • Debbie

    Greenflag,

    Vance TV sounds a great idea. Wonder can I get 3 billion to finance it just like the BBC?

    Also as regards the Enniskillen bombing, I’d like to say those who organised it behind bars for their inhumanity meanwhile republicans smile and vote them into power. Morally bankrupt, you see, and squealing every time this is pointed out.

    Posted by David Vance on Apr 27, 2008 @ 07:27 PM

    Any chance of sticking to topic? Would someone on ATW be allowed to de-rail a thread as you have done here?

    ‘The scabs are still in place . It’ll be a while before they fall off and there’s still a risk they can open up again . In fact there are a few on both sides who would welcome it sad to say’

    This is true. Infact we are as deeply divided as ever but in time……

  • Debbie,

    My second sentence related directly to the topic -being the lies that emanate from the butcher boy. As for de-railing the thread, do you mean a little assertive unionism spoiling the mope party? Our division lies between those who delight in terrorists in power and those who oppose it.

  • Dewi

    David – tell us your views on the Basque educational system.

  • Debbie

    ‘Debbie,

    My second sentence related directly to the topic’

    Your second sentence is nothing of the sort. You have not contributed one iota towards the topic of a unionist Irish language act. Please desist from trolling and stick to the topic. Please!!!

  • It doesn’t get any ‘mopier’ than David Vance’s assertive unionism. And he should stick to the topic of the thread – an Irish Language Act rather than bringing Enniskillen into the proceedings. If he wants to swap atrocities, because for every Enniskillen there’s a Bloody Sunday or a Greysteel or a Loughlinisland, then he’s going to end up in a cul de sac. Then again, maybe he’s already there.

    I highlighted the issue of the BBC’s one step forwards two steps back approach to the Irish language in a previous post. Of course this doesn’t take into account David’s backward views which would leave the corporation’s stance wrt the Irish language and all other progressive matters back in the Jurassic era.

    There’s no doubt that Irish has been politicised – but the politicisation is mostly down to unionist leadership – which, thankfully, doesn’t include David Vance. However the BBC have it within their power to do something to break down the barriers between Britishness and Irishness – that is to accept that Irish, as a language, is just as much part of British culture as Scots Gaelic, Welsh or Cornish, and to treat it as such, equally and equitably doesn’t undermine British culture but enhances it.

    Poor David doesn’t see this, blinkered as he is by blind irrationality and pathological hatred of all things Irish. Which is pitiful given that, whether he likes it or not, whether we like it or not, he is Irish….

  • Debbie,

    My apologies! I mis-spoke a la Hillary – thought it was on another thread. However, I am surprised you did not intervene when two trolls chose to attack me at the start of this thread – entirely off topic. Did you miss that?

    As for the idea of a Unionist Irish language act -I’m all for it! Let the DUP and UUP, or TUV, put it in their manifesto, campaign on it and see what the response is. Judging by the efforts I hear at Stormont from our politicians they could perhaps try mastering English for starters – before moving on to more obscure “languages”!

    Of course not a penny of taxpayers money should go to Irish, Ulster-Scots, or Klingon for that matter.

  • Jo

    I am afraid that Vance doesn’t make any meaningful contribution to any topic.

    Thats why, for some reason, producers on the BBC’s *Nolan* show etc take the easy way out and keep his number handy. Its not like he’s an orsinary member of he public or anything.

    Get a job?

  • PaddyReilly

    Achadh is common to many dialects

    The word achadh is indeed found in places names in Ireland, the most notorious of these being an Achadh Úr south west of Dublin, but the fact that this word means ‘field’ is less well known, which is why the place is translated into English as Freshford: they confused achadh with áth. It really means New Field. Ur in Scots Gaelic means ‘new’, rather than ‘fresh’ as in Ireland, though we do say an t-Oileán Úr for America.

    The ordinary word for field in Irish is páirc or gort or míodún or something else, certainly not achadh.

  • Debbie,

    I notice a troll has commented off-topic just after I commented on topic. Perhaps you could remind trolls that each thread has a point, even of the trolls themselves are pointless.

  • Debbie

    ‘I hear at Stormont from our politicians they could perhaps try mastering English for starters’

    And you could try and remember what thread you are on;-).

    ‘Let the DUP and UUP, or TUV, put it in their manifesto, campaign on it and see what the response is.’

    Stranger things have happened. Who would have thought Paisley and McGuinness would become the chuckle brothers?

    As for the others at the beginning. they have contributed to topic. It appears to me, as a casual observer, that you only appear here infrequently and always without exception to talk about yourself. It is tiresome, and boring to read. Keep to the topic as you would elsewhere and contribute constructively-it is much more pleasant for those of us not interested in your frequent spats with all the others.

  • Debbie

    Debbie,

    I notice a troll has commented off-topic just after I commented on topic. Perhaps you could remind trolls that each thread has a point, even of the trolls themselves are pointless.

    I’m laughing now. This is descending into farce. What a childish comment.

    I give up. I’m off to the other threads. Either talk politics or go to a chat room.

  • Greenflag

    David Vance

    ‘ Also as regards the Enniskillen bombing, I’d like to see those who organised it behind bars for their inhumanity’

    But as for those who executed the Miami Showband well that’s different eh ?

    Morally bankrupt? Yes that sums up your position in a nutshell.

  • PaddyReilly

    You are on the wrong thread. You want Enniskillen and appeasement. This is a Unionist Irish Language Act

  • Greenflag

    Conchubar O Liathain,

    ”Poor David doesn’t see this, blinkered as he is by blind irrationality and pathological hatred of all things Irish. ‘

    That much has been obvious .

    ‘ Which is pitiful given that, whether he likes it or not, whether we like it or not, he is Irish’

    Whether he’s Irish or British is a moot point . Either way he’s just an ignorant bollix and the less attention people pay to him the better . Send him to Klingon school -It’s located near Coventry if you catch my drift !

  • sammaguire

    The ordinary word for field in Irish is páirc or gort or míodún or something else, certainly not achadh.

    Posted by PaddyReilly on Apr 27, 2008 @ 08:44 PM

    Interesting re Freshford. Ardagh is probably a better known placename: Ard Achadh (High Field).

  • Debbie,

    When I want your advice as to when I should comment, I’ll ask for it. If Slugger is to be narrow-minded republican mopery uber alles, you are indeed welcome to it.

    Paddy,

    Thanks for that. Tell it to poor Greenflag, he responded.

  • RG Cuan

    I would rather say that there are many words for field in Irish and Achadh is just one of them.

    Níl mé ag dul a bhacadh le labhairt ar an rud seo darb ainm Vance.

  • Debbie

    ‘Debbie,

    When I want your advice as to when I should comment, I’ll ask for it. If Slugger is to be narrow-minded republican mopery uber alles, you are indeed welcome to it.’

    You are boring.

  • Jo

    “narrow-minded republican mopery”

    You couldnt make it up.

  • Debbie,

    And you are off-topic.

    Jo,

    Most of what you scribble you make up, so your last comment is wonderfully self-unaware.

  • Jo

    Moderator?

    I thought not.

  • Debbie

    Debbie,

    And you are off-topic.

    And you’ve been on the wrong bus in this thread all along. At least now you know 😉 Next time ask for directions if you can’t manage.

  • Dewi

    Anyone else on the Basque stuff? Nos da

  • Greenflag

    RG Cuan ,

    ‘Níl mé ag dul a bhacadh le labhairt ar an rud seo darb ainm Vance. ‘

    Nil aon amadan in Eirinn nios mo na an Vance 🙁

  • Munster

    As someone from the far south, I wonder what unionists seem to think that they would would loose if lets say they lived in this state, as some do now with the ecomony the way it is. I have never heard any complaints, choice of sports, religion, language, hair-spray. Wheres the problem. I honestly think that if the Unionist tradition embraces the Irish language again, well the Ulster dialect anyway that they would outshine any attempts previously made.

  • Ty

    It would appear that David Vance instead of taking the issues up with mick and solving them here has decided to bring them to his own site. Firstly let me state in no way was I banned I left and the account was pulled, leaving me no option to return. If my behaviour was rude then why allow me to register when he brought in registration. he knew me well by then.

    David sent me the following in an e mail.

    ‘ wouldn’t be surprised to see it reviewed on Slugger and am sure my fans there will be loving it’

    he is talking about his book. If this is such a bad site why want your book reviewed on it? He told me he’d be on hearts and minds and I told him I’d upload for him, offered no problem. But whether book or HandMinds, I can only forward and then its up to the site management. I’m sorry David is sore about that, but thats how it is. It can be frustrating but there is no point in bullying me because I have no power here nor do I want any. I like playing with cameras – end off.

    I have no wish to bring slugger into disrepute at any level. Due to this sort of bullying, all I can do is delete everything I have on the net and go back to living peacefully before involvement with ATW. What a sorry day it was I got involved there!!!!!! I’ve had a lot of trouble with David during private correspondence, he pulled my account twice after returning money. That was my beef. If he couldn’t take the comments here why come? If he had issues he ought to have taken them to slugger admin. Not bully from afar with no right of reply.

  • Ty

    Remember this e mail David?

    This is the first chance I have had all day to talk to you. Sorry I couldn’t talk when your husband phoned earlier but I was entering a Board Meeting and it was not possible to speak freely. It’s been a long 48 hours and I wanted to explain a few things to you privately, and I will also put a post up on the site later making these points clear.

    Firstly, I wanted to apologise for placing you in a difficult situation. It was me who invited you to help improve site design and the fact that the site crashed is not your fault as these things happen. I believe it was an accident and I know you worked hard to resolve it so I attach no blame whatsoever to you and I remain touched by your industry in solving it.

    Second, I also wanted to apologise for the fact that whilst I was happy for you to moderate any nasty comments that appear on the threads, this applied to MY posts only. Every writer is responsible for what appears on his/her thread and I have no wish to censor what they or their posters may say. The exception to this is any matter which has legal implications – which is where I will directly pull the offending words. I know you set out to do what I asked and I am sorry you have been upset because I should have been clearer with you.

    I also know that you made a £100 contribution to the site for which I am very grateful but I feel that it would be best to refund this to you, which I will do later this evening when I get to Paypal.

    Finally, I reject any claims that you acted in any way but with the utmost integrity and I am so sorry that this situation has developed in the way that it has. You impress me as being a very principled person and I hope you may continue to read ATW.

    Once I post on this the evening, this matter is closed and I am sorry again for the annoyance you have experienced.

    Kind Regards,

    David

  • BonarLaw

    Munster

    As someone from the far north, I wonder what nationalists from the Republic seem to think that they would would loose if lets say they lived in this United Kingdom, as some do now with the ecomony the way it is. I have never heard any complaints, choice of sports, religion, language, hair-spray. Wheres the problem. I honestly think that if the natioalist tradition embraces Britishness again, well an Irish version anyway that they would outshine any attempts previously made.

  • Munster

    Bonarlaw : Yes thats a very clever response, I applaud you. Only problem with your answer is that I have heard many complaints.

  • Steve

    Munster

    The unionists would lose the ability to blame some one else for their problems as they would be gaining autonomy

    That and they would actually have to take responsibility instead of having things dictated from London

  • Munster

    Just one more comment before I head back down to the far south. Of all the Irish speakers that I know, I can honestly say that not one of them are politically motivated, and certainly not hardline republicans. A language is simply that, a language.

  • Séamaí

    Of all the Irish speakers that I know, I can honestly say that not one of them are politically motivated, and certainly not hardline republicans. A language is simply that, a language.

    Totally agree. Maith thú.

  • PaddyReilly

    Bleaidhmí, is this thread still running? Yes, but severely off topic. While it subsists, I would like to invite those who might be interested to a talk at the Linen Hall Library entitled “Young Protestant Learners of Irish” by Dr Ian Malcolm, on the 2nd May 2008 at 1pm, admission free.

    Also, may I register my surprise that no-one has mentioned Loyal Orange Lodge 1303 (Oidhreact Eireann), which was both Unionist and in favour of the Irish Language. However, I do not believe it is still extant.

  • darth rumsfeld

    No, it isn’t still working paddy
    I wish this thread stayed on topic instead of the frankly boring personal attacks on Mr Vance and others, some of which are clearly defamatory, and others are just petty. But then should we be surprised?

  • FraserValley

    Leave David alone guys. He’s trying to whip up a market for his new book.

    The idea of a Unionist Irish language act is progressive and intriguing, which is exactly why it will never happen.

  • DK

    FV: “The idea of a Unionist Irish language act is progressive and intriguing, which is exactly why it will never happen”

    lol – great quote! Now if they called it the Northern Irish Act, it might get somewhere.

  • Munster

    Irish speaking Ian Malcolm gives the Unionist point of view on TG4, Radió na Gaeltachta and the newspaper Foinse which is great. But the only problem is that 95% of Irish speakers, from my own experience, are not hardline republicans.

  • Just to correct Munster – Ian Malcolm is a columnist for Lá Nua, http://www.nuacht.com, not Foinse.

  • Not from the island of Ireland

    Do the people who govern NI want their citizens to have equal rights or not. There is no wonder that nationalists want what is available to the people in the South.
    Unionists is my opinion have a big trouble with handing out equality. Is that the British way, or is it just the Ulster/NI way?

  • Greenflag

    Not from the island of Ireland,

    ‘Do the people who govern NI want their citizens to have equal rights or not. ‘

    In theory most do. In practice i.e in real life it’s still an aspiration. What you have now is two sets of self chosen/elected selected politically and religiously denominated ‘elites’ who are competing against each other for the crumbs being dropped from the English taxpayers table . At the same time they have to cooperate to the extent that their ‘competition’ does not destroy their ‘game’. At the same time competition within each of the two groups for power , money etc continues unabated . On the Unionist side the former Paisleyite predominance has now been superceded by the new ‘successors’. . When you factor in the ‘black economy’ share for the former associates of the the other major party it is clear that there will be no return to the ‘equality’ of say the 1960’s or for that matter the 1920’s .

    Mr Orwell’s ‘Animal Farm’ is alive and well not just of course in Northern Ireland but everywhere else as well . It’s just that in other countries in Europe the people are not a) as well armed and b) prepared to use said arms in ahem ‘defence of their ‘equality’.

    For further insight into the idiosyncracies of this ‘tribal’ struggle find a cultural anthropologist who perhaps has direct experience of the head hunters of New Guinea for further illumination 🙁

  • gaelgannaire

    Regardless of an ILA, Unionist or otherwise, G-Spota is on this Friday, CCÁ.

    Fáilte roimh chách (atá sásta gan Béarla a labhairt).

    Ó, and nós* is out tomorrow.