Rival Gangs Clashed….

The father-in-law of Hugh McNally, who was viciously assaulted and left critically ill in hospital after the sectarian attack in Belfast city centre last weekend, has criticised the PSNI’s response to the incident. Seamus Davis, a well known Antrim town based community worker, has slammed the PSNI for failing to arrest any of the loyalist/ nazi gang involved, who were filmed calmly walking away from the scene of the attack immediately after leaving his son-in-law for dead and after having assaulted a number of other unsuspecting victims in the King Street/ Castle Street area.

“How could this gang be abe to walk through the city centre, causing trouble in other bars and then walk all the way up Castle Street without the police being aware…The police were on the scene in minutes but these guys were able to carry on out of the area. It’s not as if they got away in some kind of get-away car. There are photos of them walking calmly out of the area towards the Europa Hotel.”

The PSNI have not confirmed reports that the gang were being monitored on CCTV camera prior to the incident, and whether or not the PSNI had earlier confiscated a Union Flag with refererences to Combat 18 on it from members of the gang in the city centre.

The Sunday World has reported that several British soldiers were amongst the attackers, also reporting that some- if not all- had attended the Linfield- Cliftonville clash earlier that day. The media reporting of the incident has also been the subject of much anger, with the suggestion of ‘rival gangs clashing’ evoking memories of the RUC’s statement immediately following the Robert Hamill attack in Portadown.

  • Peter Brown

    And for his troubles a Glentoran supporter – who play Linfield in a crucial Irish league match this Saturday – I hope he’s disappointed by 4.50pm on Saturday….

  • Steve

    Peter Browm

    Have the PSNI not admitted to watching this gang of attempted murderers on CCTV?

    So the PSNI at the bare minimum should have rolled some units to inspect why a large group was amassing. This is after all Belfast and large groups wandering the streets are highly suspect.
    By the time they had attacked the bar there should have been a large emergency response instituted and infact enroute.
    By the time they got arou8nd to slitting the poor mans throat a crridon should have already been established and officers deployed to identify and arrest atleast some individuals

    If this was South Belfast I am sure you would have been on here bollicking the inadequate response of the Keystone Kops.

    And no matter what part of the city is involved the response should be identical

  • willis

    So a large (10+) group of armed men walked through the centre of Belfast on Saturday afternoon and did not meet a single police officer?

    Were the PSNI waiting to put a team together or was there no-one in charge out of office hours?

    You do not have to be a genius to predict what next Saturday afternoon in the City Centre will look like.

  • majordolittle

    Why not utilise the 5000 strong military garrison here. Sureley troops from Thiepval or Palace Barracks could be deployed to reinforce the PSNI out of hours. And could be patrolling all areas of Belfast and Londonderry, as well as rural towns, at night to quell trouble.
    If certain hoods are well known for creating trouble…well, lets face it, who would worry if they simply were not about in future.
    A pragmatic solution?

  • Steve

    No minor knows little not pragmatic, simple or elegant.

    The army has shown they have little restraint and less ability to identify and control situations. the last 40 years is ample proof of that

  • majordolittle

    Yes Steve, I know that…
    But is the PSNI going to become civil servants, or social workers.
    We still use the army for Bomb disposal etc and they are available in an emergency.

    The alternative is for the PSNI to grow some balls.

    I watched Spotlight tonight, and with an obvious eye on legal matters, they appeared to be lacking any means of upholding the rule of law. Certain people , on camera, were acutely aware of this.
    Protection of the right to live in peace is paramount. Putting a few squaddies (not Paras or Marines)on the streets might make some people feel safer. Maybe even in Stoneyford.
    I’m in a mixed marriage and neither of us gives a shit about the uniform of our protectors. Army or Police. This may sound silly but what about using the TA?

  • Peter Brown

    Steve

    I’m not clear what PSNI has admitted but there are those here and on UTV who allege they arrived by bus giving the police no opportunity to intercept them

    In any event the ordinary police would have struggled to cope with this lot – there is no reserve sitting in Musgrave Street waiting for something to kick off before 100s of them race to the scene in Landrovers and I assume many of those on duty for the match were redeployed to the second semi which also had a secatarian edge to it being between Coleraine and DC in Ballymena but maybe they could have deployed a Star Trek style force field around King Street (I’m assuming crridon is one of these made up Irish words which means exactly that or maybe its Klingon for cordon!)

    Willis if the TSG was deployed every time groups of 10 men walked through town or city centres I’d join the PSNI just for the overtime

    When there were 12000 cops in NI these were luxuries we took for granted not that there’s 2/3 of that number we expect them to be even more available. It may not be palatable that it will take hours for a police riot squad to deploy in NI nowadays but that’s what GB & RoI is used to and we’d better get used to it too!

  • TAFKABO

    Also because of the seeming denial of what is really common knowledge regarding the fascist links to unionist groups in the north of Ireland.

    Obtuse much Princey?
    Let’s talk about denial shall we?
    You made the above comment after I plainly said in black and white that I knew there were links because I had first hand knowledge of links.
    What I was casting doubt on was the claim that Loyalists and the linkes of C18 were inextricably linked.

    I will continue to condemn all and every clear example of sectarian or racialy motivated violence I see, what I wont do is join with some people in a witch hunt motivated by their own sectarian desire to demonise an entire community at the slightest opportunity.
    I continue to have serious doubts about most of the claims being made in this particular case, I’m happy to discuss those doubts and why I have them, but i suspect that others just want their little MOPE fest.
    Come back when you’re ready to have a serious discussion.

  • Harry Flashman

    I utterly condemn without reservation the dreadful assault on this poor man.

    Apparently such statements of the blindingly obvious are compulsory here before one is allowed to discuss the issue, no doubt Eoghan will be as equally forthright in his condemnation of Republican violence before he comments in future threads.

    There are quite clearly links between modern day wannabe nazis and the fringes of loyalism just as there are rather more institutional links between Republicans and Marxist thugs around the world, with rather more violent results than gangs of football hooligans attacking bystanders on a Saturday afternoon.

    Just ask the victims of FARC’s highly enhanced mortar bombs in Colombia.

  • USA

    I think people should ease up on Willowfield. I don’t see where he has said anything unreasonable. People here are very quick to see offense where none is intended.
    Now, however to the last post by “Harry Fuckman”. Whataboutery at it’s worst. He should be utterly ashamed of himself. FARC, Columbia, Marxist thugs etc have nothing to do with this thread.
    Just because you throw in a condemnation at the beginning does not mean you can then try to score cheap political points. You must be a DUP supporter as the representatives of said party invented this horrific little provincial ploy.

  • Harry Flashman

    On a different note regarding the inability of the police to intercept this gang I have to say the photo is rather flimsy evidence of incompetence, I see a group of young men, dressed casually, strolling down a city street, not something entirely unheard of in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon when two big football matches are being played.

    Just so’s I understand, if I was a peeler arriving on the scene what would indicate to me that this group as opposed to any other group was in fact a knife wielding gang of thugs?

    As regards the reliability of eyewitnesses I recall an incident from years back when a young man smashed a window in my premises. The sales assistant happened to know the boy and when the cops arrived she described him as “kinda medium height and wearing a blue jacket”, the cops not unnaturally weren’t able to find the suspect in the crowded town centre of Derry.

    When I told the assistant this she said “God, it’s funny how they weren’t able to find him, especially as he’s black an’ all”!

  • Harry Flashman

    “Whataboutery” is the term used by Republican/Nationalists when they make some sweeping judgment about Loyalist/Unionists and don’t like to have it pointed out that their own kettle is just as black.

    If you don’t want sweeping judgments made about your own side it is usually advisable not to make them about the other.

    You are a foulmouthed idiot USA, and your previous posts about your inimitable ability to sniff out nazi fifth columnists in pub bogs shows you for the clown you are

    (Don’t like ad hominem attacks? No, neither do I so when you retract your insulting name calling I will do the same)

  • USA

    Don’t be such an arse Flashman. The police should have been aware / tracking this gang as them moved through the city center. There were even reports that they stopped for photos when the PSNI took away a Nazi flag.
    Your little anecdote about a black man is just pathetic….go sober up.
    On another note I still believe the police will use the above photo, the CCTV footage, eyewitness reports and any other information they can gather to build a case. I would be very suprised and even more dissapointed if arrests were not made within the next month or two. I still think the PSNI will come through on this one if they are given an appropriate amount of time to do their work. I’m sure many of the officers are as disgusted by this attack as most people in society.

  • USA

    Should read…”as they moved through the city center”.

  • USA

    Will I sniffed you out for what you are “Harry Sashman”. Don’t come on here ranting about FARC, raving about Marxist thugs and roaring about Columbian victims.
    We were talking about a serious racist attack in Belfast…nothing else.

  • Harry Flashman

    As regards being drunk you tosspot, I should point out it’s 11am here, what time is it with you? I daresay you’ve been on the sauce judging by your barely coherent, spittle flecked inanities.

    As regards you telling me what I may or may not post on this blog I have one thing to say “shove it up your very abundant arse!” I’ll say what I bloody well like and there’s damn all a whingeing loser like you can do about it.

    Oooh, look out behind you USA there’s a big bad nasty English football fan in jackboots and a funny moustache having a piss, it’s just like the Third Reich all over again!

    Clown.

  • Realist

    “Realist can you justify why members of the Linfield support were seem waving UVF terrorist flags in the Main Stand during that game? More to the point, can you justify why the stewards standing feet away took no action?”

    No, I absolutely cannot justify it.

    Whilst some will argue that the flag was a 1912 UVF flag (which was clearly visible on it), I think it is best summed up by a Linfield fan who commented on another board.

    He was unable to make the Cup semi Final that day as he was visiting the Somme area to pay his respects to the fallen of the 36th Ulster Division, and other regiments.

    He said a UVF flag had no place at a football match.

    I understand that Stewards did take action – and removed the flag from the fan (singular) who was waving it.

    Nor can I justify those amongst the Cliftonville support who were seen waving INLA terrorist flags, and those in support of a mass murderer.

    Perhaps those who support the glorification of the IRA at football matches in Scotland, can justify why a 1912 UVF flag might be flown in Northern Ireland?

  • Realist

    There have now been two arrests following the incidents in King Street.

  • willowfield

    PETER BROWN

    OK willow look at the photo and try to find someone not matching the description average height dark hooded top jeans and then you’ll appreciate why the police had a hard time then go to the city centre on a Saturday afternoon and see the hundreds of others matching the same description with no involvement whatsoever – not really enough for an ID parade!

    The hundreds of others weren’t walking away from, and looking back at, the scene of the crime.

  • austin

    Realist,

    Did you see your fellow Linfield fan on Spootlight last night? You know the one. The nice chap from Stoneyford wearing the Linfield coat and hat. As for your comment that Stewards removed the UVF Terrorist Flag from your fellow Bluemen at thw Oval, that is most charitably described as wishful thinking.The flag was on display regularly right through the game , only feet away from Linfield’s ‘zero tolerance’ stewards.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘There are quite clearly links between modern day wannabe nazis and the fringes of loyalism just as there are rather more institutional links between Republicans and Marxist thugs around the world’

    Good man harry, the ‘aul few rotten apples argument, then a broadsword at republicanism…..great stuff !

  • Harry Flashman

    Am I wrong RS?

  • USA

    “Harry Drunkman”,
    I was posting at approx 10pm East Coast USA time. That would make it approx 3am in Ireland not 11am as you claim. I belive the time stamps on the posts above will confirm my timeline and not yours.
    Hopefully, now that you have had a night to sleep it off, you will start making some sense.
    Have a nice (sober) day.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>PE – In the context I referred to it was appropriate because not a Unionist had shown the slightest concern(at the time)

    anonymous – The incident was condemned by Belfast Lord Mayor Jim Rodgers.< < That is great anonymous, though I have to say you have missed the crucial word 'context' both in that meaning and the fact that I was referring to all those who had commented on that thread thus far. Far from trying to force commentators to apologise for or condemn the thugs responsible as one commentator has petulantly alleged. I was noting that despite the amount of Unionists commenting, all they had done was pick holes and not one had thought to condemn. That is not to say that some holes weren't worth picking. Taf You may have the makings of a point, all depends on what we mean by inextricably I suppose. Wherever we find Unionists(no not the new nu-labour types) we usually find Loyalists, and there we will almost always find extreme right-wing groupings. I am confused at this silly attack though; >>Come back when you’re ready to have a serious discussion.< < I have explained myself very patiently and provided links, uncalled for, no? Harry >>Apparently such statements of the blindingly obvious are compulsory here before one is allowed to discuss the issue<< No Harry that is being disingenuous probably as much as your opening condemnation of the attack, I refer you to my many previous statements about Unionists and the usual british apologist. All who had thus far to a man sought to pick holes in the story, not a one thought to condemn. A slightly different but important narrative than you have presented on my account. The rest of your post just confirms the subtext quoted by Willow. You really can be quite an unpleasant fella in your own way.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    >>Perhaps those who support the glorification of the IRA at football matches in Scotland<< Why this has anything to do with Linfield I don't know. Anyway we had a right good rollicking thread several months past on this(perhaps you saw it). I would be happy to work my way through it with you, give as clear an explanation as I can. Hopefully without threats of banning this time for what at the time no-one could work out.

  • USA

    Surely there is enough to cover surrounding the incident at hand. Policing, public safety, Nazi presence in the North, links to British Nazis, possible Unionist responses to these low life thugs who come from within the wider unionist community etc.

  • Star of the County Down

    “>>Perhaps those who support the glorification of the IRA at football matches in Scotland<< Why this has anything to do with Linfield I don’t know." Well, given that you couldn't wait to drag Rangers into things in post 18 on page 2, as per your usual MO, you haven't too many grounds for complaints now, have you?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Another silly contribution Star.

    I don’t have a usual MO as far as I know, perhaps you know different. Rangers were used in that annoying word ‘context’ again, and their association with Scottish/Irish/British Unionism/Loyalism. Some of my friends are Rangers fans, many of my wider family and acquaintances are Rangers fans. And I do not go a day without bumping into Rangers fans. Due to this I hear stories, eye-witness usually. Some of it first hand. Why shouldn’t I throw some of this knowledge into the mix when giving my opinion.

    Now fair play to Realist for trying to defend his team, the linkage to Scotland delves into whataboutery. Something you are familiar with, and is indeed threatening to ruin the thread thanks to some unpleasant introductions.

    Now instead of just sniping from the sidelines, why not contribute?

  • USA

    Gone all quiet Harry Drunkman?
    Yeah, you know i’m right about the time stamps.
    What time is it now “Drunkman”? Oh thats right, it must be Opening Time?
    I live in an American state, you live in a drunken state?

    Cheers / Slainte “Harry Drunkman”, thanks for the laugh.

  • Realist

    “Now fair play to Realist for trying to defend his team”

    Where, exactly, was I defending my team Prince?

  • Realist

    “Anyway we had a right good rollicking thread several months past on this(perhaps you saw it). I would be happy to work my way through it with you, give as clear an explanation as I can”

    Prince,

    I will be more than delighted to discuss the merits, or otherwise, of glorifying the IRA/UVF/INLA/UDA etc, etc, etc at a football match, at any time with you.

    In fact, I’ll allow you to dictate the terms of engagement on the matter (within forum rules, of course).

    In return, you can expect to be measured against the terms that YOU dictate.

    Fair enough?

    Alternatively, we could save some time and agree on one basic fact.

    A minority of football fans, of both an orange and gree hue, (and indeed, throughout the world of football) behave in a way that yoyu and I wish they wouldn’t.

    Your call.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Where, exactly, was I defending my team Prince?< < The following would be seen as whataboutery, therby contributing to a form of defence. ie We might be bad, but whatabout............? >>Nor can I justify those amongst the Cliftonville support who were seen waving INLA terrorist flags, and those in support of a mass murderer.

    Perhaps those who support the glorification of the IRA at football matches in Scotland, can justify why a 1912 UVF flag might be flown in Northern Ireland?< < What is the problem? It was a throwaway comment, no insinuation was inferred, you were more than clear in your condemnation. And as for the chat, I genuinely thought you might be looking for some kind of explanations as to why the IRA may be glorified at football matches in Scotland, no kind of belligerent challenge was meant at all if that was what you were thinking. >>A minority of football fans, of both an orange and gree hue, (and indeed, throughout the world of football) behave in a way that yoyu and I wish they wouldn’t.<< Certainly, and ofttimes the majority.

  • Realist

    “The following would be seen as whataboutery, therby contributing to a form of defence. ie We might be bad, but whatabout…………?

    >>Nor can I justify those amongst the Cliftonville support who were seen waving INLA terrorist flags, and those in support of a mass murderer”

    I think my point was a little deeper than base “whataboutery” Prince.

    A poster made an observation about a certain flag that was on display at the IC Semi Final.

    Her/her point would have had more validity if reference had of been also made to the, equally “offensive”, (flags never hurt me, I have to say!) flags displayed by opposing supporters.

    If we want to challenge “offensive” flags etc, let’s challenge them all – not just the ones that belong to “themmuns”.

    You see, when you point the finger in such a manner, there’s usually one pointing right back at you – equally valid.

    I would go as far as to say that I find many of those who only see fault in one “side”, whilst their “side” is equally as guilty of exactly the same type of practice,(and to which they seemingly turn a blind eye) to be bigoted in their outlook.

    “What is the problem? It was a throwaway comment, no insinuation was inferred, you were more than clear in your condemnation”

    There is no problem.

    As I have discussed with you before, if one sees fit to glorify the IRA at a football match, then it stands to reason that you would be fully understanding, and accepting of, those who choose to glorify the UVF at football matches – otherwise, you would display an astounding level of hypocricy.

    I feel, as you know, that both are equally inappropriate at football matches.

    “I genuinely thought you might be looking for some kind of explanations as to why the IRA may be glorified at football matches in Scotland”

    If you seek to explain why the IRA might be glorified at football matches in Scotland, then your explanation will also cover why the UVF might be glorified at football matches in Scotland and elsewhere.

    Bit of a pointless debate really – you either support the glorification of such groupings at football matches, or you don’t.

    I don’t.

    I go to football matches to support my favourite football teams – nothing more, nothing less.

    I seek to cause nobody any harm, I don’t want any hassle, and I enjoy seeing my favourites win.

  • Peter Brown

    The hundreds of others weren’t walking away from, and looking back at, the scene of the crime

    So now its a crime to look at the scene of a crime while walking away from it – arrest all thos rubberneckers who gawk at RTAs immediately!

    Two people have now been arrested presumably becuase the police have had the good sense to gather some evidence first!

  • USA

    Peter Brown,
    One of the points you are missing is had the police acted professionally in the first place the whole incident may have been avoided. Alternatively, had they been properly monitoring the situation they could have responded appropriately and some of the culpirts could have been quickly apprehended. The information gathered could hopefully have led to more arrests.
    You are not doing yourself any favours with your silly little petulent responses.
    Had the police been monitoring the situation they would have been closer to the gang and in place to make arrests or to prevent attacks from even taking place. Instead this gang wanders through downtown Belfast, carries out a series of sectarian / racist attacks and then just walks off again. What were the police on duty that day doing? It would also be incumbent on the general public to raise the alarm on seeing this sinister looking group. If it emerged that some members of the general public did warn the police, who then still did not take appropriate action, it would obviously raise more questions about police effectiveness on the day.
    I have not yet seen a link to the reports of arrests but I hope you are right. If found guilty I think stiff sentences are required. I hope you guys have done away with that 50% remission rule. Talk about a dumb law. I also support those who fell that crimes motivated by sectarianism should carry an additional penalty. Society needs to eradicate sectarianism in all its manifestations.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    On the thread I mentioned previously I at first stoutly defended Celtic fans who wished to sing political and folk songs, some of whom include reference to the IRA past and present. To cut a long story short apart from all the argy bargy and attacks from all sides I somehow came to a position probably not a million miles from yours. Those days are over, Of course I would argue over several points of order, but I reckon I have arrived at a position, perhaps a more moderate position all told.

    >>I think my point was a little deeper than base “whataboutery” Prince.< < Like I said it was a throwaway line. Say for example I was dealing with Willowfield I would have had to cover all the angles. Don't look too deeply into it. i realise that you were making a wider point. >>I go to football matches to support my favourite football teams – nothing more, nothing less.

    I seek to cause nobody any harm, I don’t want any hassle, and I enjoy seeing my favourites win.<< Understood, only wish that my favourites could get a new broom and get rid of a few duds. Your mob interested?

  • Peter Brown

    USA

    Apologies in advance for another silly petulent (sic) response but if as the eye witnesses describe the gang arrived by bus carried out this attack within minutes if not seconds and then melted away into the Saturday afternoon throngs how could the police have monitored them?

    Maybe you need to get the facts and some understanding of the need for evidence before making silly petulant responses – or we could maybe implement the policy of a number of US police forces of shoot first ask questions later. If LAPD can’t even nail OJ don’t you think that your time would be better spent taking the log out of your ownn eye!

  • Harry Flashman

    [b]USA[/b]

    Oh dear oh dear, USA, here’s a little hint, when you’ve already conclusively proven yourself to be a clown it is always best not to beclown yourself further.

    I fully understand that it said 3am Irish time on my post, just as I prefectly understood that you were in the US (guessed by your name you see, I’m not such a super sleuth as you but I could work that out) that is why I asked you what time it was with you. You see like you I don’t live in Ireland I live half a dozen or so time zones to the east of Ireland, hence it was 11 am with me, therefore as to which of was on the juice it was most likely you.

    Not too complicated for you now my dimwitted friend is it? I don’t live in Ireland.

    Clown (ah but I repeat myself, you clown).

    [b]Prince Eoghan[/b]

    My personal unpleasantness aside (and I would draw your attention to the fact that the barely literate personal abuse originated with our American chum) can you define this “whataboutery” against which you rail so?

    If a former British paratrooper came on a thread about an IRA outrage condemning Republicans for murdering innocent civilians and implying that that made them morally inferior to the British Army wouldn’t it be perfectly obvious to cough gently and mutter the words “Bloody Sunday”?

    So it is with you, in many threads you paint prods as racist, sectarian, psychotic thugs by the very nature of their political beliefs which compare in your view very poorly with the fine, virtuousness of Irish Republicanism.

    When I and others point out that there are indeed very ugly stains on the record of Unionism/Loyalism but that Republicans needn’t get all morally superior coz they’ve got a hell of a lot of foul stinking skeletons decomposing in their wardrobes, you simply say “Whataboutery, not relevant”.

    You really can’t have it both ways you know, if you dish it out you have to be prepared to suck it back up.

  • USA

    Harry Trashtalk,
    Ranting about Columbian victims, raving about Marxist thugs and then minimizing the horror of the sectarian attack is Whataboutery. Can you not see that?

  • Harry Flashman

    Care to apologise for your idiotic ranting about me being drunk in Ireland at 3am, clown?

  • USA

    Peter Brown,
    the policy of a number of US police forces of shoot first ask questions later

    Well, well, well. Isn’t that another beauty. Total Whataboutery.
    Not even slightly linked to the topic at hand, now the finger points again at the “bad” American. What about the LAPD, what about the NYPD? What about the ASAP, the RSVP? What about Columbia, what about Marxism?
    Peter Brown and Harry Flashman – note to self – this thread is about a sectarian attack in the heart of Belfast, Columbia, various US law enforcement agencies and Marxist thugs are not relevant.

  • Harry Flashman

    Oh, and as to “ranting” and “raving” about Colombians my post was entirely calm and rational however I refer you to your post at 2.22pm above to see who the trashtalking ranting idiot is.

    Clown you are and clown you seem determined to remain.

    Clown.

  • Realist

    “Understood, only wish that my favourites could get a new broom and get rid of a few duds. Your mob interested?”

    I think your broom should be directed at wee Chesney in the first instance. He’s your number one dud….and no way would he get a job with us ahead of DJ. 🙂

    If I were you, I wouldn’t give up all hope…I watched Rangers v Sporting Lisbon last week (akin to watching paint dry!), and that Rangers side seemed to me like a team with not a lot left in the tank….absolutely dog tired.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    The luckiest team(drawing Sporting?) since Alex McCliesh’s mob(now they were bad) however they are well drilled and moral is high. I wouldn’t quite say they are as exciting as watching paint dry because that would be insulting to paint drying. I hate the defence put up for wee Strach, ie he took us past the group stages twice and won two leagues. I present for the prosecution Ms Legeun and McCleish, oh and he had the same points as O’neil in the champions but evidently more luck in how the cards fell for others in the group. At the first mention of a challenge wee Strach has had his limitations exposed, especially his woeful, woeful transfer market dealings. Absolutely no defence, time for a spell in the commentary box I reckon.

    Harry

    >>can you define this “whataboutery” against which you rail so?< < Look I regret the unpleasant jibe from before and withdraw it, it was the faux condemnation used to attack me. This and the subsequent whataboutery, I believe it totally detracted from the fact that an innocent guy had had his throat ripped open; >>There are quite clearly links between modern day wannabe nazis and the fringes of loyalism just as there are rather more institutional links between Republicans and Marxist thugs around the world, with rather more violent results than gangs of football hooligans attacking bystanders on a Saturday afternoon.

    Just ask the victims of FARC’s highly enhanced mortar bombs in Colombia.
    Posted by Harry Flashman on Apr 09, 2008 @ 02:11 AM< < Now as for the rest of your utter shite, this is what stands out as the biggest stinking smoking pile; >>When I and others point out that there are indeed very ugly stains on the record of Unionism/Loyalism<< You are undoubtedly the biggest apologist going on here, on thread after thread good auld Harry can be trusted to be the rent-a-gub that pops up and defends, whatabouts and procrastinates on pretty much any and every right-wing agenda going. So it was not a surprise when you missed*ahem* your opportunity to condemn on this thread and instead launched into aforementioned unpleasant whataboutery. Never have I read any meaningful ongoing condemnation from you of Unionism and the outworkings that often mean all levels of sectarian violence directed at Nationalist. You even managed to back to an extent the phantom case against Derry Nationalists incredibly accused of ethnic cleansing, supposedly your own city folk despite there being next to no evidence. Subsequently we had the debate on the Shankill butchers, who according to you are on a par with other combatants in the past conflicts, thus nationalists should stop getting their knickers in a twist. Little quips at the start of an anti-Republican/Nationalist rant does not pass for pointing out ugly stains on Unionism/Loyalism. it is fraudulent to even claim that you do this to any meaningful way, and unless you have been doing it pre-2006 on here, I haven't witnessed it.

  • Ian

    USA:

    “I hope you guys have done away with that 50% remission rule. Talk about a dumb law.”

    Would that the elected representatives of the people of NI [i]could[/i] do away with that “dumb law”. But of course they can’t, as the DUP have so far refused to agree to the devolution of such matters to the NI Assembly/Executive.

    Instead they have to beg their proconsuluate master to implement the abolition of 50% remission, at his convenience. Perhaps people don’t have confidence in the justice system [i]precisely because[/i] it isn’t a devolved matter?

  • majordolittle

    Why hasn’t Shaun Woodward abolished it?
    If Boris Johnson was in charge here, it would have been dealt with.

  • Peter Brown

    USA

    OK but how about you deal with facts set out in my post and stop hiding behind the whataboutery smokescreen?

  • Harry Flashman

    It’s really very simple Eoghan I don’t have to condemn the repugnant history of Loyalist violence because I never supported it, I never voted for their thugs and I was sorry when the whole shaggin’ lot of them got out jail instead of being put up against the nearest wall and shot.

    I hope that makes my position in regard to vicious sectarian thuggery clear enough, I don’t like it, I loathe it.

    How about you? Are you unequivocal in your condemnation of sectarian violence, do you condemn utterly ALL thugs who murdered, bombed, robbed, kidnapped and tortured people in the course of our squalid little thirty year “war”?

    I don’t think you do. I think, in fact I know because you have repeatedly said so, that you believe the sectarian thugs who ruined lives in the name of Irish Republicanism were fine, upstanding people, not like Loyalists who were nasty fascistic lowlife. You will never miss any opportunity to flaunt the so-called moral superiority of Republican sectarian murder gangs compared to the huns’ lot.

    I find such blatant hypocrisy stomach turning and for as long as you assert such hypocritical nonsense I’ll be right alongside of you pointing out your hypocrisy.

    One other small point, I seem to recall there was a Glasgow Republican flute band who came to Derry every Easter weekend back in the ’90s, who knows maybe they still do, I met them frequently in the bars around town. Just for the record for sheer neanderthal, lowlife, sectarian and racist bigotry they beat all comers, hands down.

  • austin

    ‘Just for the record for sheer neanderthal, lowlife, sectarian and racist bigotry they beat all comers, hands down’

    Apart from yourself, Harry.

  • Harry Flashman

    Ya see austin you’d actually have to show that I’m a sectarian racist bigot to prove that point wouldn’t you?

    You can’t, therefore you join USA in the clown category.

    Clown.

  • austin

    ‘Ya see austin you’d actually have to show that I’m a sectarian racist bigot to prove that point wouldn’t you?’.

    I think you’ve amply demonstrated that yourself, Harry, old boy.

  • Harry Flashman

    When?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Just for the record Harry.

    I would be more than happy to answer and have done so all of those charges you have laid at my door. Your misrepresentation of my position is as alarmist as it is wholly wrong. I engage with many Unionists on here on an ongoing basis, we can usually thrash things out without recourse to any unpleasantness. I do not try to hide my political convictions and will answer for them at all times. I do not think a charge of sectarian bigotry could ever be laid at my door by any serious person(s)

    You have again shown yourself up as perhaps something that you do not recognise in yourself. The constant, unhealthy need to engage in whataboutery belies any sincerity, no matter how forced on other matters. I do not intend to ‘duke’ it out any further Harry, simply because it serves no purpose at all. I’d reckon we are both able to inflict minor wounds that only serve to irritate and certainly bore others, who may be trying to make a worthwhile contribution.

    Another time.

  • USA

    Jesus Harry, any more clowns and we could start a circus.
    Glad to see your forthright condemnatioin of loyalist violence with no whataboutery.
    Congratulations.
    I might even now consider addressing you without disdain or contempt.
    Oops, my red clown nose just fell off.

  • Harry Flashman

    Another time, no problem Eoghan, I look forward to it.

    Despite my unpleasantness I actually enjoy debating you.

    You and I are too much alike I fear and if that isn’t an unpleasant enough thought to be getting along with I’ll wish you a good night.

    [b]USA[/b], let’s keep the debate civilised from here on, eh? Good night to you too, it’s late here, yes, yes, I know 4pm isn’t late in Ireland but it is where I am.

  • USA

    Bon soir mon ami Harry….wherever you are.
    I just wish I didn’t have to wear these huge oversized clown shoes, I can never get my feet under the desk. Click here.