McCord and the sash his father wore…

JUSTICE campaiger Raymond McCord – who son was murdered by a UVF gang that included police informers – last night became the first unionist to address a Sinn Fein ard fheis. Wearing his father’s Orange Order sash, McCord told republicans that whereas Gerry Adams had kept to his promise to raise the case of McCord’s son in Downing Street, unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson failed to name the killers in Parliament. The News Letter reported that Mr Donaldson said he pledged to name the killers if Mr MrCord, who received a loyalist death threat a few days ago, brought inconclusive evidence – but that it never came. That’s certainly never stopped members of Mr Donaldson’s former or current parties before. Mr Donaldson said Mr McCord should “reflect on his new bedfellows and look at the record of the IRA for murder and destruction and ask himself: ‘Are these the people best able to deal with the circumstances surrounding the murder of his son?'” The answer could well be ‘yes’, because there is an almost complete lack of interest amongst unionist politicians about loyalist violence against Protestants. In fact, since the IRA ceasefire, by far the biggest terrorist threat to Protestants has been loyalist paramilitary groups.

  • slug

    Do you no mean conclusive evidence?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I did.

    That’s what I get for being lazy and cutting and pasting from the News Letter!

  • Greenflag

    ‘The answer could well be ‘yes’, because there is an almost complete lack of interest amongst unionist politicians about loyalist violence against Protestants.’

    What else would you expect from the ‘men of principle and biblical truth’ ?

    Brave man McCord and I hope he does find out the truth about his son’s murder . Hundreds of people in NI will of course never find out the truth.

  • pp

    Why did Mr Mc Cord feel the need to wear an orange order sash,when hes not even a brother in the order? I hope he dooes find out the truth about his sons killing at the hands of uvf scum,but why the need to don a sash..

  • jake

    equally, sinn fein are not the best people to deal with the circumstances of people murdered by the IRA.

  • Besashed (jpg image).

  • 0b101010

    Why did Mr Mc Cord feel the need to wear an orange order sash,when hes not even a brother in the order?

    My guess is that he probably wore the sash as an over-the-top indicator to his own community that he hasn’t suddenly turned Republican.

  • PeaceandJustice

    I sympathise with Raymond McCord and hope he gets justice. But unfortunately he is being used by the Sinn Fein PIRA terrorists. These are the people that have murdered many innocents – just like Raymond McCord’s son. So far there has been no justice for the victims of Sinn Fein PIRA violence. So the only reason Sinn Fein PIRA are interested is to push their political agenda.

  • The Watchman

    As an actual Orangeman, I resent Mr McCord wearing colours he has no right to put on. I also think he has damaged himself and his cause by going along to the Chuckies to denounce the UK state. That’s a pity as the links between the UK state and the loyalist paramilitaries are well worth exploring. Some of us have long suspected that elements within the UK state encouraged loyalist violence for their own ends. But Mr McCord has helped to ensure that few unionists will be keen to be associated with him.

  • Garibaldy

    Watchman,

    I’d say he ended up there precisely because too few unionist politicians were keen to be associated with him.

  • austin

    The Watchman,
    Clearly in your world, McCord has committed a much bigger crime by adressing the SF conference than those who murdered his son in cold blood.
    Says a lot about your morals or indeed the lack of them.

  • PeaceandJustice

    The Watchman – “Mr McCord has helped to ensure that few unionists will be keen to be associated with him.”

    Agreed. On your point about the state and various paramilitaries, the role of the Republic of Ireland also needs to be examined i.e. how Sinn Fein PIRA was setup, armed and then sheltered while they carried out their murder campaign.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>I’d say he ended up there precisely because too few unionist politicians were keen to be associated with him.<< Spot on! The OO sash wearing was quite ill mannered I thought, seems SF are determined to bend over backwards(and probably forwards to prove that Prods are welcome). Why won't they just accept the telling, or is some kind of insertion really needed. Ok P&J;! Here is a challenge. Try and debate without using whataboutery, let's see how you get on.

  • Mark McGregor

    As Gonzo and Garibaldy noted above, Unionism wasn’t interested in helping him or exploring the issue before so claims this has reduced his chances of support ring very hollow.

  • realst

    Can`t help thinking would Mr Mc Cord still have appeared as another spinn fein annual token stunt if he`d spoken to the Mc Cartney sisters first?
    Look where it got them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Watchman:

    That’s a pity as the links between the UK state and the loyalist paramilitaries are well worth exploring.

    They have been explored in detail and no doubt will continue to be explored. Unionist politicians, generally speaking, ignore such exploration, citing the policy of running informers as being necessary; they systematically oppose proposals to investigate collusion or the other, more shady, activities of Special Branch.

    Far more interesting to explore, though, would be the links between unionist politicians and loyalist paramilitaries. And the Orange sash has been used in other unfortunate occasions as well, such as when the Whiterock parade was rerouted and besashed individuals chose the moment to riot and attack police lines. I don’t particularly remember people standing up to complain about their resentment of the way the sash was used then.

  • dp

    This event would seem to be a case of ‘my enemy`s enemy is my friend’. As Mr McCord has vowed to leave no stone unturned to bring his son`s killers to justice and expose the authorities` part in protecting those killers, this appearance keeps the case in the news. Good strategy.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Why are the comments from ‘Screwball’ about Willie McCrea allowed on this site? When people post the truth about Sinn Fein PIRA individuals, the posts get removed. Complete double standards on Slugger.

    To Prince Eoghan – some things need to be put in context. Of course it doesn’t suit your agenda to hear the other side of the story.

  • austin

    Evidently McCord has upset Realist by besmirching the reputation of the beloved sash at an away fixture down south.

    Presumably Realist has no such objections when thousands of orangemen borrow the neutral and non-sectarian environs of Windsor Park of a summer month to display their sashes at an aul’ orange sectarian-fest….

  • northsider

    Peaceandjustice,

    the reason comments about McCrea are not removed is because Good Ole’ Willie went on a public platform (and therefore public record) to defend the rights of terrorist mass murderer Billy Wright.

    Let me educate you further, Billy boy then went and set up drug dealing murder gang the LVF.

    So go you and put two and two together, oh moral one.

    It’s all on record, pal, if you care to look.

    But maybe you won’t. And in doing so confirm the points made by others about unionist ambivalence toward loyalist terrorism.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To Screwball & northsider – So William McCrea was on a platform once with Billy Wright. Compare this with the Butcher of the Bogside who says he is very very proud of his association with the terrorist wing of Sinn Fein PIRA. What do you think of Martin McG? Also, we’ve had Adams and McG carrying the coffins of SF PIRA terrorists who murdered Protestants. And of course the majority of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland have given Sinn Fein PIRA a platform through their votes – thereby associating themselves with these murderers. Any opinion on that? You appear to be clutching at straws in relation to Unionist politicians while ignoring real examples of Sinn Fein PIRA terrorists. But better not let the truth get in the way of your propaganda.

    Which is why I think Raymond McCord made a mistake attending the Sinn Fein PIRA terrorist conference. Asking terrorists who murdered many people to help him get justice seems rather strange.

  • Billy

    northsider

    Well said, but you are wasting your time with the laughably named “PeaceandJustice”.

    I would have thought that any regular reader here would be familiar with his one-sided and hypocritical views on “loyalist” terrorists.

    I don’t know any Catholic who was surprised at McCrea’s public backing for “loyalist” sectarian murderer and drug dealer Wright. For decades McCrea would come on TV to condemn any republican violence but very rarely had anything to say about the scores of innocent Catholics murdered by “loyalist” terrorists in his constituency. Even when pressed, his condemnation of “loyalist” violence was tepid and half-hearted in comparison to his fierce condemnation of Republicans.

    He was frequently claiming that there must be Catholics providing information to the IRA about their work colleagues who were in the RUC reserve, UDR etc.

    A friend of mine was murdered by the UVF. The killers walked in to his place of work – picked him out as the only Catholic and murdered him – they already knew who he was and his religion.

    Oddly enough, McCrea never came out and asked how his killers knew his religion and where to find him. In fact, I don’t ever recall McCrea making accusations about Protestants identifying Catholic collegues to “loyalist” terrorists although this was clearly happening in a number of cases.

    As I said, he never had any hesitation in claiming that there were Catholics who were identifying colleagues as “targets” for the IRA/INLA.

    I have no time for him and his hypocritical views – his alliance with Billy Wright merely confirmed what I had always thought about his blatent double standards.

    I agree with anyone who, like myself, clearly and unequivocably condemns ANY and ALL terrorism equally and who doesn’t differentiate between Republican and “loyalist” terrorists or between Catholic and Protestant victims.

    I certainly don’t think that scrutiny of McCrea’s record would show anything like an equal balance of condemnation.

    I’m not surprised that ‘PeaceandJustice’ defends fim – they have a lot in common!

  • jake

    peaceandjustice: you are perfectly correct – several of my posts reminding people of sinn fein and ira misdeeds committed by or condoned by their current elected leadership were immediately removed by mr fealty and his cronies with acid remarks from them about commenting policy – it seems that you can just about say anything about anyone except people in the leadership of sinn fein – it is why i have accused fealty of hypocrisy and why i believe that this site is up the provos’ hole – if fealty & co were honest about it, it wouldn’t be so bad but they are not, they pretend to be are even-handed when they’re not.

  • Quiz Master

    Peace and Justice stop condoning murder. The man is obviously desperate for justice for his murdered son. It says something that he has to turn to Sinn Féin to get justice, namely that as long as it suits their narrow sectarian views the main unionist parties are prepared to condone state collusion in murder . Your ideas on peace and justice are narrow sectarian ones. Grow up and quit condoning the actions of terrorists and their state sponsorors

  • fair_deal

    As an aside on a point of information, it is a collarette not a sash.

  • austin

    Stop your MOPEry, Jake!

    As for terrorist conferences,P & J, I believe that the Ulster Resistance Red Berets are due to have one soon after a two year sabbatical-but this time the venue definitley won’t be Clontibret. It’s kinda funny that Peter The Punt has ended up being the Minister Of Finance-payback time, I suppose..

  • jake

    austin: its about exposing double standards – peter robinson becoming minister of finance is an example of one but so is martin mcguinness becoming the deputy first minister responsible for putting together a policy on victims, many of whom he helped create as chief of staff and then northern commander of the ira.

  • Garibaldy

    Never seen up your hole written down before. Great stuff.

    We are where we are. People need to deal with it. It might well be unpalatable, but it’s better than what we had before.

  • austin

    Jake, -stop the MOPEry man!!!

  • LURIG

    I have to laugh at Peace & Justice, he forgot the rest of his name…..for Protestants only. There is a lot of typical unionist hypocrisy going on here as usual. They condemn Mr McCord but are quite happy to use the McCartney’s and Quinn’s to score cheap political points. Both these families deserve justice but the way they have been manipulated and used for political purposes has alienated them from many within the nationalist community who were originally sympathetic and supportive. I would agree with an earlier poster that the links between certain Unionist politicians, M15 and Loyalist terrorists should be explored but maybe in the year 2525 will the truth come out. It is terrible that Raymond McCord has been abandoned by Unionist politicians more interested in ignoring collusion than justice for the McCord family.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Peace and justice for Prods (it suits)

    I guess you couldn’t take the challenge!

    I have no problem with any ‘truths’, in fact am eager for it all to out, even some of the laughably immature ones that you have a penchance to come out with on occasion.

    Now how’s about actually addressing the subject matter in hand. I would actually be interested in your take on it, do people in your community not deserve some answers here? Please comment on the issues at hand, then whatabout all you like.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To Billy – are you related to John Hume? He had the single transferable speech and you have the single transferable post. Never attacking Sinn Fein PIRA death squads members who are now in power yet claiming to be some sort of model citizen!

    As for the other comments, the truth must hurt. Pan-Nationalists have given a platform to murdering terrorists via their votes – yet everyone else is to blame.

    I already have said that I sympathise with Raymond McCord. But asking for help at a conference for Sinn Fein PIRA death squad members seems very strange indeed.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’ve had to clip quite a bit of the comments here for playing the man. It would be good if others on here tried to hold the line a little more robustly.

    LURIG:

    That’s a familiar line, but it’s not one that has anything like universal agreement or support. For instance, Catherine McCartney’s book Walls of Silence gives quite a different impression of the same set of events, and is well worth the read. Her contrast of what the Sinn Fein leadership was saying to her and her sisters in private, with the party’s public line is particularly interesting.

    She claims the sisters were told quite candidly that the IRA was powerless to take any action against the perpetrators since they had extensive family connections within the Short Strand community. The offer to shoot the ‘volunteers’ the IRA believed to have been behind the killing of their brother only came later.

  • Quiz Master

    Strange P&J;but undestandable when you consider he was being stonewalled by politicians from his own community who seem to care more about political point scoring than the actual truth

  • Billy

    “PeaceandJustice”

    You lecturing anyone on a single transferrable post – what a joke. If 99 Catholics were burned out of their homes in 1 night + 1 Protestant had a window broken, your post would consist totally of a whinge about how the Protestant was treated and how the Catholics deserved what they got.

    Let’s face it – that’s your one + only theme.

    My views have never and will never change – I unreservedly condemn ANY and ALL terrorism. I treat all victims equally irrespective of religion.

    I have never supported or voted for any party that supports terrorism.

    I have never supported terrorism and you will NOT find any posting of mine that is ambiguous in any way about my views on terrorism.

    GET IT!!

    On the other hand, 99% of your posts are about Sinn Fein, the IRA or Catholics in general.

    You only mention “loyalist” terrorism when challenged and, even then, your “criticisms” are ambiguous and half-hearted (just like McCrea’s).

    I’m sure that many Unionist people here oppose my views – fair enough but you are the only one stupid enough to claim that I am some sort of supporter of Sinn Fein and/or the IRA or Republican terrorism.

    On the other hand, it’s obvious that your pretence of being opposed to “loyalist” terrorism hasn’t fooled anyone. It’s hardly surprising as you are so open in your whatboutery and never ever discuss “loyalist” terrorism in any depth – even when it’s the topic in question.

    You gloss over “loyalist” terrorism and try to pretend it’s non-existent and then go off on one of your frequent anti-Catholic rants.

    I’m glad to see that a number of other posters on this topic have challenged your blatent whataboutery.

    You are a revisionist and effectively an apologist for “loyalist” terrorism.

    If you don’t like what I post – tough. That’s how it is when you try to defend the indefensible actions of terrorists.

  • Mick Fealty

    Billy,

    Like I said, “It would be good if others on here tried to hold the line a little more robustly.”

    I know that can be hard if we’ve been affected by the troubles in some direct way. But I always presume that someone reading Slugger will have suffered just as badly or worse.

    I’m all for vigorous rejoinders but let’s keep it on subject and, if we can, leave whether people like us or not to one side for the moment?

  • Turgon

    The episode regarding Raymond McCord’s murder and his father’s fight for justice is very distressing.

    This young man was murdered by a terrorist organisation; it seems that many are aware of who murdered him but that there is inadequate evidence to prosecute them. It is just the same as the murder of Thomas Devlin, Paul Quinn and quite possibly Lisa Dorrian along with countless others from the recent and more distant past.

    Mr. McCord is clearly desperate for justice and is willing to do anything to keep up pressure for this to happen. Whilst I suspect it will be unproductive and possibly even counter productive for him to have attended the SF meeting and wear a collarette; I do not condemn his attempts to get justice. I do not think it will work, I do not think it will help and I think he will be used politically.

    I also think it may be unfair to complian about Jeffrey Donaldson on this as we do not know how much real evidence Mr. McCord has been able to give him. However, However, what else is this man who lost his son to do? Of course he will clutch at straws. And yes of course SF will make rather distasteful political propaganda out of it: what else do people expect?

    Without wishing to make too much of a political point this episode helps encapsulate where we now are. What we have is an unpeace: not conflict but not peace either. We congratulate ourselves about an end to violence but we have suspended coporate civic morality to gain this. I have previously accussed certain parties of a Faustian pact. Maybe the reality is we have all partaken of it and the likes of Mr. McCord, the Dorrian, Devlin, McCartney and Quinn families are the victims along with how many more? Not a particularly uplifting thought for Mother’s Day.

  • Truth & Justice

    It was brave for McCord to go to address Sinn Fein however he forgets if it hasd not been for a viscious IRA campaign in the first place then nobody would have died inh the first palce form any side!

  • Garibaldy

    Problem with that remark T & J is that it gives a totally mistaken impression of who was responsible for the early deaths in the Troubles.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    PeaceandJustice [i]”Agreed. On your point about the state and various paramilitaries, the role of the Republic of Ireland also needs to be examined i.e. how Sinn Fein PIRA was setup, armed and then sheltered while they carried out their murder campaign.” [/i]

    Well said, and the role the Gardai played over the border when the bogside blocked themselves in, should be investigated too.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    PeaceandJustice[i]”And of course the majority of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland have given Sinn Fein PIRA a platform through their votes – thereby associating themselves with these murderers.”[/i]

    Correct. 1/4 of N.Ireland’s population supports Republican terrorists. It’s a sad statistic, but then again when these people are told that Protestants behaved like Nazi’s by both a Roman Catholic Priest and the Irish President, what else can we expect?

    Brainwashing the Catholics in N.Ireland, so Protestants are demonised and legitimacy given to voting for Republican terrorists is being organised from the very top of Roman Catholic Irish society. It’s not enough that they’ve brainwashed the Irish Republic for centuries, they have to start twisting history in N.Ireland too.

  • RepublicanStones

    Ulsters my homeland…..whose homeland was it before your ancestors?????

    P&J;, remember nobody cheers for the schoolyard bully in a fight, now compare international support for irish nationalism and your unionist cause, and tell me im lying !

    harsh truths, harsh truths

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]”Ulsters my homeland…..whose homeland was it before your ancestors????? “[/i]

    The Ulster people

  • RepublicanStones

    for ‘ulster people’ read ‘the irish’.

  • The world before 1690

    ‘The Ulster people’?????

    err, thanks for that incisive and informative answer, UMH.

    Lucky you covered your back there otherwise some people might have suspected you hadn’t got a baldy notion.

  • gareth mccord

    What amazes me is that the unionist people and politicians voted by a large majority to go into power and accept sinn fien and chuckle with the chuckies! But when a grieving father speaks about what happened to his son concerning collusion between loyalist killers and the british state the unionist politicians and community condemn him for talking with sinn fien??
    Do any unionist bloggers on this site honestly say that the unionist politicians have done ANYTHING in addressing loyalist killers who were and are paid by the british state.
    The only people who have talked about it are republicans. Not because they made it up and its just happened to republicans but because it happened and is still happening now to both sides of the community.
    If the unionist people and politicians have a problem with my father fight for justice then maybe they should address the issue of collusion and not worry about losing votes from loyalist killers and their supporters.
    Or why dont the unionist politicians support any other unionist family who have a loved one murdered by paid loyalist killers? Im sure they must want justice for any murder and not just republican murders.
    The truth is the unionist politicians and people have ignored all the families from both communities who have had a loved one murdered by the likes of haddock. Not because they dont believe it but because they think it makes them a bad unionist to blacken the british state by exposing the collusion with loyalist killers.
    I would like any unionist to answer one simple question WHY WONT THE UNIONIST POLITICIANS HELP OR SUPPORT ANY FAMILY AFFECTED BY PAID LOYALIST KILLERS AND THE UNIONIST PEOPLE STILL VOTE FOR THEM???
    As for any orangeman being offended by the wearing of the collarette why? It was his fathers and is proud to show that he comes from a strong unionist family and the I.R.A. members accepted that with applause. Would the same respect be given to a republican at a d.u.p. conference??
    If an orangeman is offended by a unionist father speaking the truth about paid loyalist killers wearing HIS fathers collarette then maybe they should look at the loyalist killers wearing the sash on the 12th and explain.

  • Quiz Master

    Truth and Justice, Peace and Justice, Ulsters my homeland I think youre all are missing the point here. A protestant is going to Sinn Féin to seek justice for the murder of his son. His son being an ex-RAF man. Why arent the unionist politicians interested in helping him out? Explain that?

  • Comrade Stalin

    PeaceAndJustice:

    He had the single transferable speech and you have the single transferable post.

    I hereby nominate you for the Paul Berry irony award. Make a speech!

    Raymond McCord is a brave man, braver than all the elected unionist politicians put together, pursuing his cause and refusing to shut up despite ongoing death threats against him. Unionists, who say they oppose terrorism, should be standing up for this man if for no reason other than that he pursues his objectives against a background of threats of violence.

    What’s ironic is that the justification used whenever Willie McCrea took to a podium with Billy Wright was that he was merely standing against a threat of violence against a constituent. So seemingly they can stand with an active murderer, but they can’t stand in solidarity with a victim ?

    Regarding the point about naming names in the House of Commons, I find this to be a pretty base practice irrespective of why it is done or whom is named. Nonetheless, it is telling how unionists apply different standards depending on whom is involved. I remember specifically two individuals being named some years ago for IRA involvement by a DUP MP, claims which were subsequently denied by Ronnie Flanagan.

    Ulsters my homeland:

    Can you explain to me why the unionists in South Antrim re-elected William McCrea after he had taken to a podium with Billy Wright, or in the same constituency, why they elected David Burnside despite his history of writing article(s) in UDA magazines ? Can you explain why unionists endorsed Paisley despite Ulster Resistance and the Third Force ?

    Getting down to a few facts, Sinn Fein’s vote prior to the IRA ceasefire was circa 12.5%. Willie McCrea and Peter Robinson, both of whom have been seen or have admitted meeting with Billy Wright, topped the poll in their respective constituencies . What gives ?

  • Comrade,

    not looking to start an argument or deflect the topic (just want to satisfy my curiosity), but can you explain (or preferably link to something explaining) “despite his history of writing article(s) in UDA magazines”.

    Must’ve been before my time I’m afraid.

    If you prefer, please feel free to email it to (my name) at everythingulster.com or use the EU contact form.

    Cheers.

  • Twinbrook

    there is no monopoly on suffering,to listen to unionist and sdlp politicians you would believe that the mccartneys and the quinns where the only families that have suffered….

    The McCords and the Dorrian families will not get a campaign funded and supported by the above parties because they`re not interested…

    theres no political gain…

    sad but true!!

    Every family be they nationalist, loyalist or security force families have a right to closure.

    As to the comments of peaceandjustice and that other person who was concerned about…

    hold yer breathe an orange collarette, pure and utter hypocrites comes to mind..

    As to ulsters my homeland….apart from knowing more than the likes of Jackson, Foster, Bew, Kee, etc, about the history of this Island, you have to really laugh at “his” make believe history of Ulster!!

    Does the uda combat mag still have cartoons!!!

  • darth rumsfeld

    “As for any orangeman being offended by the wearing of the collarette why? It was his fathers and is proud to show that he comes from a strong unionist family and the I.R.A. members accepted that with applause.”

    Well I’m an orangeman and I’m slightly offended Gareth. The IRA members accepted it because they will be able to use his appearance as propaganda and to deflect the spotlight from their own culpability. They have extra ammo now to posture as an ordinary political party concerned about. human rights

    “Would the same respect be given to a republican at a d.u.p. conference??”

    Certainly not. The DUP are hypocrites, as your post correctly points, but they draw the line at sleekit hypocrisy- they know people would see through such a brazen stunt for what it would be.

    “If an orangeman is offended by a unionist father speaking the truth about paid loyalist killers wearing HIS fathers collarette then maybe they should look at the loyalist killers wearing the sash on the 12th and explain.”

    OK, we’ve been down this road before, but here goes. Until the courts convict someone no organisation- be it the golf club, orange order, RC church or Star trek appreciation society- is able to investigate serious crime and discipline members. Firstly it doesn’t have the information held by the police, and secondly any decision would inevitably be successfully challenged in the civil courts by the person complained of.

    It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.

    I have always admired Raymond McCord’s courage, and we need more people like him to stop inconvenient truths being buried, but on this occasion he made a mistake, as is shown by the fact that all the Unionist posters on this thread who oppose the idea of forgiving and forgetting terrorists (as opposed to those who are now prepared to turn a blind eye now they are in power) have felt this was a mistake.

  • cynic

    Belfast Gonzo

    “That’s what I get for being lazy and cutting and pasting from the News Letter”

    In my experience, reading the News Letter invaiably leads to that

  • Quiz Master

    “It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.”

    It hasnt stopped politicians from rightly naming Sinn Féin members involved in murder. Its called parlimentary privilage. The problem is that 3 of the main parties (The DUP, UUP and Sinn Féin ) have been involved in or supported terrorism and state sponsored terrorism(not that theres much difference between the two). Sinn Féin are obviously using mccord but mccord is also using sinn féin because the main unionist parties have have too much to loose by admitting their role in supporting loyalist terrorism. Hes doing a deal with the devil as its the only route open to him to seek justice for the murder of his son.

    Everyone knows the sordid role Sinn Féin and the IRA in the conflict but equally the british state also used their own illegal death squads.

  • cynic

    Yesterday I saw an advert for the stage show of Give My Head Peace, much derided on Slugger for its stereotypical characters (and the odd bit of threadbare script and porky acting)

    Then I read this thread counting how many times Willie / Martin / Gerry / Peter have appeared on a platform with whoever and said/ supported / thought whatever. Now Give My Head Peace seems so topical again!

    Look, they were all stupid. They were all misguided, They did and said some terrible things. Some of them were worse than others but it was all bad. Oh yes, and we all kept voting for them and supporting them…..after all they were ‘ours’.

    We are just emerging from 40 years of collective madness where we were all at fault as a community. Collectively we let it happen and let it keep happening.

    It was all awful …but now its over, so get over it and move on. As for Justice? Well, I am sorry for McCord and all the others who suffered but they are very diverse group and what Justice will really satisify them all / deliver the inner peace that they want and we should wish for them?

    The first demand is often that they should know the truth about what happened. That seems fair enough, but how do we do it? Whose truth? Remember that those who really know will usually be a shower of lying, murdering, self serving bastards, many of whom have now their own careers to worry about. The sad fact too is that may klillings were just random or just handy. He’s a Taig/Prod – he will do.

    Then there is the demand for Justice. Care to count how many MLAs would end up in the Dock on that one never mind all the others?

    The problem with this entire debate is that its all rooted so firmly in the past and aimed at picking at the scabs of old wounds. And, of course, the more cyncial may think that there are votes under some of those scabs.

    Perhaps the only Justice for all the dead is to build a political system that makes sure it never happens again. But how can we do that and still respect those who suffered most? I fear that Robin Eames and Denis Bradley will be very busy.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Darth

    And the central point…………….being that he was FORCED to reach out to Nationalist politicians, because of a lack of help elsewhere. A desperate man, doing what to your community is a desperate action. Perhaps understandable though.

    Pretty damning indictment on Unionist politicians, wouldn’t you say?

  • gareth mccord

    DARTH you have cemented the thoughts and actions of a typical orangeman and unionist by somehow saying you dont know about the killers within your ranks! The unionist know about the republican killers and their activities but strangly they dont know about the loyalist killers they share platforms with and march with and share info with???
    Please speak or type your opinion but dont make a fool of yourself by pretending or defending the orange about killers well known HIGH UP in their ranks.
    Would the orange accept a paedophile marching on the 12th or are they different from paid loyalist killers in the views of orangism.
    A simple question for a proud orangeman like yourself, WOULD THE ORANGE ORDER BACK THE CAMPAIGN TO FIND THE TRUTH ABOUT PAID LOYALIST KILLERS COLLUDING WITH THE FORCES AND DEMAND JUSTICE FOR ALL THOSE EFFECTED ESPECIALLY THE 25 PROTESTANTS KILLED SINCE 1994 CEASEFIRE??
    Exactly and why not tell us.

  • doctor

    “It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.”

    Darth, prominent Orange member Brian Kennaway has written a pretty damning book that covers in part this very subject. There have been orange members in very recent years who were convicted of paramilitary activity and never disciplined by the order. Not to mention the continued celebration of dead loyalists (and orange members)who were killed in the midst of a terrorist action. In short, there have been more than enough instances in recent years of Orange hypocrisy.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Twinbrook [i]”As to ulsters my homeland….apart from knowing more than the likes of Jackson, Foster, Bew, Kee, etc, about the history of this Island, you have to really laugh at “his” make believe history of Ulster!!

    Does the uda combat mag still have cartoons!!!”[/i]

    Hello fellow Ulsterman, did your forefathers build Black Pigs Dyke or were they the invading Gaels from the South? I would suspect they built it and were known as the Pretani, or in Scots Gaelic, the Cruthin.

    so how did you lot manage to become Irish?

  • Quiz Master

    Ulsters my homeland are you one of those people that believe the Giants causeway was formed ater Noahs Biblical flood or that the earth is 6000 yrs old?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Quiz Master, what has Noah and 6000 years got to do with Ulster history? Black Pigs Dyke is real, it’s not myth, the Pretani are real, they’re not myth, unlike the shitload of Irish fairy tales which try to Irelandise the whole island.

  • Twinbrook

    6 county ulster….

    more than likely my forefathers were Planters….

    still your attempts at make believe history really are….

    well out of the combat mag…

    as to scots Gaelic atleast thats a real language unlike ulllstter sccccats

  • Ulsters my homeland

    twinbrook, that’s a bit of a rant, learn that at Sinn fein college?

  • the oak grove

    hello everyone, first time user here.

    to ulster my homeland,

    well buddy, it seems to me, that its not ulster is your homeland, because ulster is made up of nine counties not six.

    to all on this site, who cares how, when or who, mr. mccord gets justice off, as long as these murdering pigs, hiding behind loyalism are brought to justice.

  • bugger

    truth & Justice

    ever try stand-up.
    you would bring the house down.

    “irelandise the island.”

    The hint is is in the name of the island you gabshite

  • the oak grove

    well said bugger,

    the key word in “northern ireland” is ireland.

  • Twinbrook

    no mo chara I`ve actually read all those authors, YOU SEEM TO IGNORE…

    still I`m not surprised you have not mentioned the lost tribes rubbish…..

    a la British Israelism…..

    Is that not in vogue with the wombles today!

  • the oak grove

    dia duit a twinbrook,

    what authors exactly?

  • LURIG

    You have to admire the resiliance and backbone of Raymond McCord and his family. The man goes and speaks anywhere or to anyone he thinks might help get to the truth, he confronts his critics and those who threaten him AND his son comes on here and takes their critics on. That family have more guts than most of us. Instead of whittling this down to a sectarian arguement it is in the interest of BOTH communities to see and hear just what role the British intelligence agencies and RUC/PSNI Special Branch played in prolonging the conflict and how many innocents died at their hands. Some of the flat earth/moon is made of cheese unionists who REFUSE to believe that Perfidious Albion did ANYTHING wrong need a reality check. Robin Eames and Denis Bradley have already hinted at their shock at just how deep collusion went and how involved these sinister secret agencies were. Is that why some Unionist politicians are very mute over the McCord killing and reluctant to get involved in exposing it. Does it shed light on some of their own activities with Loyalists and MI5/MI6. Lets face it, if these Intelligence (!) Agencies infiltrated ALL the paramilitary groups you can bet they have/had their agents in ALL the main political groups too, especially the main Unionist parties. I definately think this is one of the main reasons some of them steer clear of the McCord killing and collusion, it’s too close to home for them.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    darth

    I was reading the Sunday World earlier, and while I wouldn’t regard it as particularly reliable, it quoted the father of Andrew McIlwaine. According to him the Orange Order has refused to offer work to a loyalist suspect in the murder of his son.

    No conviction, but – assuming the story is accurate – a previous story in the Sunday World was good enough. OK, he wasn’t Brother Joe Bloggs and couldn’t be kicked out, but he was the local UVF commander, and could be ‘punished’ by the Order without a court’s conviction.

    Out of curiosity, how would you have obtained justice if you were in McCord’s position? While I’m sure you wouldn’t have gone to SF, would you have accepted unionist politicians turning their back on you? And what conclusive evidence do you think would prompt them into serious action?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Beano,

    I read the story about Burnside’s UDA association years ago, but I can’t find a link to it now. I remember reading that the article in question (talking about how loyalists needed to stand up for themselves against the bolshie left) contributed to the end of his UDR career.

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    “Hello fellow Ulsterman, did your forefathers build Black Pigs Dyke or were they the invading Gaels from the South? I would suspect they built it and were known as the Pretani, or in Scots Gaelic, the Cruthin.

    so how did you lot manage to become Irish?”

    All contrived nonsense to justify the planters
    decendants in Ulster today. Next you’ll be saying that the Cruithin were Protestants who spoke the queens English. Fact is the Cruithin are just as much the ancestors of the Irish Catholic folk of Ulster as well as Irish Catholic folk of the rest of Ireland, (North Leinster and Connaught). John “Hume” and Gerry “Adams” will tell you that! The Cruithin are a part our Irish history too, part of the island of Ireland’s history, no matter what way you interpret it. (There are a number of ancient ramparts like the Black Pig’s Dyke found throughout the island of Ireland, just as there are in Britain and Europe. So the Black Pig’s Dyke is not unique).

    Gas how the likes of “Ulsters my homeland”, Peace & Justice etc..live in their own little insulated bubbles of mythological religious and historical nonsense! An education, no doubt received from the bible and what their grandfathers told them!

    Sinn Fein somewhat exploited Raymond McCord however at their Ard Fheis, for there has been no development with the case of the murdered Robert McCarthy or Paul Quinn.

    Regarding all the cases that have come to light over the years, Northern Ireland was (and still is I suppose) a truly awful place for murder cover ups whether terrorist/thuggery related or state killings. Sad how people deny it. The insulated bubble syndrome rife.

  • cynic

    Sorry to disappoint all you romantics but the gentics seem to show that we are all much the same. All from the one batch of Irish / Scots / British stew brewed from centuries of intermarriage (and probably a good bit outside marriage as well)

    All this Irish Celtic Nation stuff is garbage largely thought up by candlelight by Victorians and used for the last 100 years by the extremists on both sides to justify murdering themmuns over there.

  • Greenflag

    ‘The problem with this entire debate is that its all rooted so firmly in the past and aimed at picking at the scabs of old wounds. And, of course, the more cyncial may think that there are votes under some of those scabs.’

    Northern Ireland is the past . It has nowhere to go but the past . To judge from this thread and many others it appears that the past is where most feel comfortable .

    ‘Perhaps the only Justice for all the dead is to build a political system that makes sure it never happens again.’

    You would think that after 40 years of farting around and getting nowhere, that building a political system, that makes sure it never happens again would be uppermost in the minds of NI politicians and voters . Sadly it isn’t . There are too many who still believe that the ‘others’ can still be beat !

    ‘But how can we do that and still respect those who suffered most?’

    Difficult if not impossible . Life is’nt fair.The dead are not coming back .The future dead of a resumption of conflict won’t be coming back either .

    ‘I fear that Robin Eames and Denis Bradley will be very busy. ‘

    I think Eames and Bradley would do themselvs and the people of NI a better service by returning to their main vocations and getting on with ‘normality’ such that it is.

    ‘Remember that those who really know will usually be a shower of lying, murdering, self serving bastards, many of whom have now their own careers to worry about.’

    True. But that’s usually the way every conflict ends . Northern Ireland is no different from Kosovo , Bosnia , Rwanda , East Timor etc on that score . Why do people in NI think they are any different or for that matter that their ‘politicians’ are either ?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Gréagóir O’ Frainclín – “how the likes of ‘Ulsters my homeland’, Peace & Justice etc..live in their own little insulated bubbles of mythological religious and historical nonsense! An education, no doubt received from the bible and what their grandfathers told them!”

    Very patronising (file under ‘Unionist Outreach’). Perhaps you are the one in your insulated bubble trying to ignore the strong relationship between the peoples of the British Isles (Great Britain and Ireland).

    Gréagóir O’ Frainclín – “Sinn Fein somewhat exploited Raymond McCord however at their Ard Fheis, for there has been no development with the case of the murdered Robert McCarthy or Paul Quinn.”

    Agreed.

    RepublicanStones – “P&J;, remember nobody cheers for the schoolyard bully in a fight”

    Indeed. So why do you support the murdering thugs of Sinn Fein PIRA? The bully boys who murdered against the wish of the people of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Eire.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Greenflag – “There are too many who still believe that the ‘others’ can still be beat !”

    Your posts often suggest that you are one of those people!

    To RepublicanStones – Is this your video?

    “Up the Shankill … on foot!”? I didn’t realise I was debating with such an intellectual heavy weight! Pictures of a turd in a toilet and slogans about the Shankill like “its still a shithole”, “it’s full of pubs and florists”. Did they show you how to make those sort of videos at the Sinn Fein PIRA university of terror? Impressive. Just admit it – you really are a clone of that bloke who was wearing the Celtic shirt with the sign “no to foreign games”!

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    “Very patronising (file under ‘Unionist Outreach’). Perhaps you are the one in your insulated bubble trying to ignore the strong relationship between the peoples of the British Isles (Great Britain and Ireland).”

    Oh, but I never deny the strong links between Ireland and Britain. I have many relations living in England, and probably more than yourself too.

    What I don’t understand however is the constant denial by Britain (London) throughout history, of independance and sovereignty,(Home Rule) for Ireland. What you readily accept without question, such is your take on history!

  • Turgon

    Greenflag,
    I agree entirely anout the Eames Bradley problem. Opposition to this pointless exercise has been the one cross community part of it. The only bit I disagree with is that they would be better returning to their own jobs. We would all be the better for it but I fear that Eames, Bradley and to a lesser extent the rest rather enjoy their position. It gives them a status and a platform they would now no longer have if they were not running this group. The rest of Northern Ireland would clearly be better without them but they either do not know, do not care, or Nevin is correct and they have an agenda set by the government. Since neither are stupid men I suggest tht latter two options are the most likely. They are in my opinion either consumed by their own self importance or they are corruptly following a preset agenda of the government(s).

  • The Watchman

    “As for any orangeman being offended by the wearing of the collarette why? It was his fathers and is proud to show that he comes from a strong unionist family and the I.R.A. members accepted that with applause. Would the same respect be given to a republican at a d.u.p. conference??
    If an orangeman is offended by a unionist father speaking the truth about paid loyalist killers wearing HIS fathers collarette then maybe they should look at the loyalist killers wearing the sash on the 12th and explain.”

    Firstly, Gareth McCord, I repeat, your father has no business wearing a collarette in public when he is not a member. Secondly he has no business wearing it in front of the Shinners and allowing himself to be misused for propaganda purposes. Thirdly, I don’t personally know any loyalist killers in the Orange. If I did, I would go immediately to the PSNI. If you have any evidence about individuals I hope you would go to the police also. But as Bro. Darth has said elsewhere, the Orange Order cannot move against any member who has not been convicted of a relevant terrorist offence. I would be happy if the Orange Order automatically terminated the membership of any person convicted of a terrorist offence.

    “The truth is the unionist politicians and people have ignored all the families from both communities who have had a loved one murdered by the likes of haddock. Not because they dont believe it but because they think it makes them a bad unionist to blacken the british state by exposing the collusion with loyalist killers.
    I would like any unionist to answer one simple question WHY WONT THE UNIONIST POLITICIANS HELP OR SUPPORT ANY FAMILY AFFECTED BY PAID LOYALIST KILLERS AND THE UNIONIST PEOPLE STILL VOTE FOR THEM???”

    I don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t know what evidence your father has brought to their attention and I don’t know why the politicians have been unhelpful.

    “The unionist know about the republican killers and their activities but strangly they dont know about the loyalist killers they share platforms with and march with and share info with???
    Please speak or type your opinion but dont make a fool of yourself by pretending or defending the orange about killers well known HIGH UP in their ranks.”

    Again, I hope you have brought any relevant information to the PSNI. But I wonder how are the “killers … HIGH UP”. The kind of people found in leadership positions in Orange districts and above aren’t exactly paramilitary types. Personally, I’d be happy if the Orange Order did make more of an issue about paramilitary-security force collusion.

  • Jocky

    Darth “but on this occasion he made a mistake, as is shown by the fact that all the Unionist posters on this thread who oppose the idea of forgiving and forgetting terrorists (as opposed to those who are now prepared to turn a blind eye now they are in power) have felt this was a mistake.”

    Darth, your keepign some pretty poor company on this thread. And some pretty nimble weasel words to dance round the subject. Castigating the man for seeking the truth but not those who cast him out. So it’s more important that you dont make unionism look bad.

    The Watchman ” I don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t know what evidence your father has brought to their attention and I don’t know why the politicians have been unhelpful. ” That was a geberal question, even ignoring the specifics about this one case, why the silence on all the others? Why are unionist politicans only concerned when it’s a republican who is killed?

    Why don’t you both come out and just say “We wont criticise our side no matter what”