Kidnap and assault of child

I have blogged before about the problems which “culture” can impose on the lives of women. At the risk of creating a politically correct storm this one from the Belfast Telegraph, though awful, should in my view be noted (thanks to wild turkey for pointing it out). It appears that a 13 year old Roma girl may have been forced to have sex with a 16 year old as part of an arranged marriage which was subsequently reneged upon. A complaint of rape seems to have been withdrawn after the intervention of a “mediator” and money changed hands. Clearly this is only a media report and everyone is innocent until proven guilty. However, this is a truly horrific episode and there seems to be a danger that there will be at least the perception of differential application of the rule of law; and a difference in the level of protection which that law gives to different persons. It may also be difficult for the Gardai if no one is making a complaint. However, imagine the outcry if this story encompassing rape, abduction and assault was about a native Irish child? What of this child’s human rights?

  • NP

    Re : travelling community, no comment on the Mongan case on Slugger. Given that Graffiti in the west of the city. stated that a J. Mongan had been put out for “granny burgling” last year,(im assuming its the same individual, although he has relations of the same name) why did he think it was safe to return. Despite what Mongan may have done, there is no excuse for this horrific attack in front of his kids.

    RE. roma’s selling Big Issue must be soul destroying in Belfast…… does anyone ever buy a copy ?

  • Twilight

    What sort of parents, if they did, allow their 13 year old child to be raped? They need to be behind bars and she needs a guardian who cares about her.

  • joeCanuck

    See Robin Williams and Sharia.

  • joeCanuck

    Rowan Williams even.

  • A title for a biography of RW: “Faith, Hope, Unclarity

  • moochin Photoman

    NP
    John Mongan was cleared of any involvement in the allegations made against him.
    The three that were in court yesterday smiled their way through proceedings and one even drew his finger across his throat whilst looking at John’s family. I was annoyed by the over sensationalism by both the beeb and utv in their coverage of the proceedings.
    Lets hope that justice is served and that the accused never see the light of day as free men. They do not deserve to.

    As for the Roma……it isn’t the Big Issue it’s Irelands Eye that they are selling which is a Southern Publication which really doesn’t have much to do with the North.

  • Haines

    Anyone who agrees to purchase a copy of a magazine from a Roma is very foolish. They will pickpocket the unwary and generally stand outside post offices because that is where the pickings are most full of fruit.

  • lib2016

    The solidarity which has earlier contributed to this family’s survival is now working against them and there aren’t easy answers.

    When people on talk-boards criticise the need to pay taxes or pay for bureaucrats this is the reality – not minor inconveniences but worried social workers with inadequate time and resources trying to help totally misguided people with good intentions. We shouldn’t forget that these people are doing the best they know nor judge them by the conventions of today’s societies.

    Lost as they are in a timewarp the priority must be the children but somehow one hopes that the older members of the family will find help also.

  • nmc

    no longer regard the incident as a rape despite the fact that the child’s husband-to-be has admitted to gardai that he had sex with the girl.

    Surely it’s possible to prosecute for statutory rape, if he’s admitted having sex with a 13 year old is this not illegal in some way?

  • Moochin Photoman

    Haines
    Thats a very very sweeping statement which i suspect is based on prejudice rather than fact

  • wild turkey

    With respect to this alleged incident, it appears that adherence to some type of misguided ‘multiculturalism’ has taken precedence over a thirteen year old girl rights to be protected from abduction, assault and rape.
    The Irish authorities (do we know whom exactly?) appear to have jettisoned the fundamentals of a liberal western state and in preference to some half-assed understanding of‘multiculturalism’.

    The job of a liberal state is to uphold and protest the equal rights of every individual – whether they are white men or Roma women. In this instance, by tolerating or creating different sets of standards, in essence laws, for each ethnic group, the Irish authorities are not to combating racism but institutionalizing it.

    They are also patronizing in their underlying view of ethnic groups as a homogenous units all adhering to the same corpus of beliefs and standards. Try applying such a homogenous categorization to all the white male bloggers on Slugger.

  • Jimmy

    I cant Believe the Gardai have taken a nuetral course of action. Immigrants who came here should be always under the law and rules of the adopted country regardless of cultural issues. Romanys are here Illegally anyway.
    Sine the NICE treaty was forced upon Ireland its payoff was Europes begging and criminal class coming to our shores, selling the Big Issue as a front. I seen more fools buying this magazine rather than give to the local childrens hospices etc. Wild Turkey put it well, the dogma of the cult of Multiculturalism is indeed institutionalising racism rather than protecting against it.

  • Rory

    Sexual activity between sixteen year old boys and sexually mature girls of thirteen, including intercourse, is commonplace in schools in England and, where consenting, rarely, if ever lead to prosecution. The factors which ameliorate against the strict application of law are (a) the younger age at which girls are reaching maturity and, (b) taking into account the age differential.

    Of course the key words, in the context of this thread, are “where consenting” and the evidence in the public eye on this case suggests that it was certainly not a relationship based on consent.

    Do we then apply the full rigour of the law in order to protect the child? Well, too late really. The harm has been done. Do we then instead simply punish the perpetrator?

    If we do will that be more or less likely to protect the child from future harm? If it does not, if indeed in might place her in future jeopardy against which we are powerless to protect her, do we still go ahead because the application of the law must take precedence over the child’s future safety?

    These,I suggest, are the kind of questions which needed to be addressed when questioning whether or not to let the matter rest with the Roma tribunal’s adjudication.

    The Roma and the travelling communities at large have always been a law unto themselves; societies travelling through settled societies and yet without those societies. We co-exist with a mixture of grudging tolerance and the odd heavy-handed show of police force when the strains begin to show. I will risk being politically incorrect enough to say that they are, at the very least, a huge pain in the arse.But what can I do? I can’t shoot them, or hang them, or gas them (and I trust they feel the same about me) – so I have to find a way to accomodate, to live with them.

    I know that for a long time in the Republic of Ireland the age of consent was actually two years higher than the age at which one could be legally married. This ridiculous anamoly arose in order to accomodate the age at which the girls in travellers’ families were married. And always married in a Catholic Church, for travellers are quite strict about the the pieties of doing things right in this regard.

    The Gypsies, as F Scott Fitzgerald said of the very rich, “are different from you and I”. And like the very rich I don’t pretend to try and understand them. But also like the very rich they rob us blind, cheat, lie and steal and are above the law of common men.

    But what are we to do? Eleminate them? Come to think of it, I’ve only been cheated a very few times by Gypsies but I’m cheated every living, breathing second by the very rich. So let’s eliminate them first. Just to see how it goes.

  • George

    Jimmy,
    “I cant Believe the Gardai have taken a nuetral course of action.”

    A file has been sent to the DPP but if all the people involved refuse to give evidence, it is virtually impossible to put together a case.

    It’s similar to gangland incidents where witnesses refuse to testify.

    “Romanys are here Illegally anyway.”

    No they are not.

  • circles

    Nice post rory

  • NP

    “it isn’t the Big Issue it’s Irelands Eye”
    Moochin P.

    call me pedantic, but its actually “Ireland’s Issues” they are trying to sell in my part of Belfast. I don’t seem to be able to get any info on who are the backers of this magazine. Either way they won’t be selling enough of them to justify certain urban myths about guys in Mercedes’ collecting the money.

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Haines wrote

    [i][b]Anyone who agrees to purchase a copy of a magazine from a Roma is very foolish. They will pickpocket the unwary and generally stand outside post offices because that is where the pickings are most full of fruit.[/i][/b]

    This is vicious racism.

  • Moochin Photoman

    Quite correct NP my mistake and you’re quite correct also in the urban myths about the guys in Mercs collecting money. Unsubstantiated wehnever i have challenged those peddling that particular BS.
    Damien i was being polite but yup thats racist post from Haines

  • wild turkey

    damien okado-gough

    thoroughly agree and endorse your comment at 17

    george

    not being a lawyer but… surely the intervention of a mediator, the payment of ‘hush’money, the admission by the 16 year old male surely constitutes a primie facie case? does the involvement of a mediator and payment of money invoke some kinda privledged relationship vitiating any evidence base?

    finally your analogy to gangland crime and implicit reference to omerato in this particular instance just doesn’t cut it

  • Jimmy

    George, Bulgarian, Romanian and Hungarian gypsies refered to as Romanys are indeed here illegally . Legislation states that the people of the latest succession states to the EU can travel freely within the Euro zone providing they come as tourists, 3 months for Eire and 6 months for the UK respectively with no recourse to public funds or to work. As these people have overstayed their visas they have then broken immigration laws hence they are here illegally.

  • George

    wild turkey,
    “not being a lawyer but… surely the intervention of a mediator, the payment of ‘hush’money, the admission by the 16 year old male surely constitutes a primie facie case? does the involvement of a mediator and payment of money invoke some kinda privledged relationship vitiating any evidence base?”

    It’s an ongoing investigation but if he confesses to something that the prosectution can’t prove ever happened because the victim and the victim’s parents refuse to co-operate then it will be very hard to get a conviction.

    My analogy with gangland is that if the victim and witnesses refuse to co-operate with the authorities then it is almost impossible to get a conviction.

    This appears to be a situation where the victim and witnesses are refusing to co-operate.

    Jimmy,
    the may be here illegally, they may not. After all, they can simply cross over to NI and return every three months, as long as they aren’t claiming benefits.

  • wild turkey

    George

    Thanks for the clarification

    So given the information regarding the supposed confession, involvement of a mediator and payment of hush money, these facts are inadquate to secure a conviction? Hmmm. Blind justice indeed.

    I must re-read Henry The Sixth, Part 2, Act 4,

  • Paddy Pearse

    This is diversity in action. Interestingly perhaps, the Romanian and Chinese “New Irish” don’t seem to join unions. The Chinese work for Chinese and the Romanians work for themselves.

    The cream crackers’ machette wielding culture isalso a colourful part of our heritage.

  • wild turkey

    ‘When people on talk-boards criticise the need to pay taxes or pay for bureaucrats this is the reality’

    lib2016

    does the daughters family in receipt of 7k euro incur a tax liability? or is this another off-shore tax free ride?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘However, imagine the outcry if this story encompassing rape, abduction and assault was about a native Irish child?’

    True Turgon just imagine — unless the Catholic church were involved of course.

  • Sex with a girl of 13 in the Republic carries a possible life term. (see link below)

    I am not aware of any close-in-age exception (although I think minors having it off with each other are a much different case to minor+adult) but those who created this “marriage” should be laid open to some kind of exploitation of minors charge.

    Marriages are not legally recognised before 18 without a court order so no exception there.

    http://www.interpol.int/Public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/csaIreland.pdf