Holocaust Memorial Day,

Today is Holocaust Memorial Day. Most of us know at least something of the history of those events during the Second World War and there are also other appalling episodes of genocide subsequently such as Rwanda. Here is a link to personal testimonies.My only story is to illustrate my own foolishness. Shortly before Christmas last year I met an elderly lady at work. She had a European accent (sounded German to me). To attempt conversation the bold Turgon said “Are you German madam?” She said no she was from Czechoslovakia. Not to be defeated I said: Ah maybe I have insulted you unless you came from the Sudetenland? She smiled and said no she was Czech but obviously I knew a bit about European history (flattery always works with me). I said that I clearly was not winning and that indeed I probably had insulted her and I apologised as she might not be very pro German.

You know what is coming next.

She just smiled; did not seem annoyed or flustered and said she had spent 3½ years in a concentration camp. I (feeling very, very embarrassed) said: You would be Jewish then I allow. She said yes and said there are very few of us left who were there. She showed me the place where the tattoo had been removed from her arm. I felt extremely humbled by my own foolishness, the enormity of what had happened to her and her graciousness.

I guess quite soon there will be no one left who was there. I used to think Holocaust Memorial Day was a bit of a gimmick. I had decided it was not some years ago but it brings it home to you when you meet the survivors.

  • Here’s my short report about Northern Ireland’s Holocaust Memorial Day event, held at Parliament Buildings on Thursday evening, at the Belfast & Beyond blog.

  • Dewi

    Linked to your suicide post also – we had a concentration camp survivor in my village. I always remember him saying why he didn’t kill himself:

    “I’d never have known what would have happened to me”

    Poignant – and linked to the fun we’ve been having on your WW2 thread. Important to remember the real evil that we faced.

  • joeCanuck

    Therein lies a potential problem. As the relatively few survivors pass on, there are fewer to personally give the lie to the deniers.
    I trust their testimonies are securely archived.

  • heck

    The thing I think about when I imagine the holocaust it not the big crimes but the little ones. The train drivers who ferried the victims to their deaths, the signal men, the engineers who designed the gas chambers, (and the stock holders who took their profits), the suppliers who lived next to concentration camps and who supplied food and served the guards in the local bars and restaurants, the average citizen who lived next to the ghettos, that proud parents and wives of SS troops–the hundreds of thousands of ordinary people who were “only doing their job”. Think of that and you realize how easily some like the holocaust can happen again.

    It is worth remembering Burke when he said “evil triumphs when good men do nothing”.

  • Intelligence Insider

    It’s a shame that a post regarding the murder of innocent Jewish people by the inhumane has been defiled by the post from “Ali the Arab”. The sooner the pedophile worshipping muslims meet their maker the better,

  • joeCanuck

    So insecure Ali/Willie that you have to resort to sock puppetry so soon?

  • heck

    Ali the Arab, II and WW

    knock it off

  • lib2016

    So much hate, so hard to get past it. This really is a frightening thread for anyone with a conscience. We all have scapegoats, myself included. It’s good to be reminded sometimes of what evil can be justified by ‘good’ ideas like patriotism and pride in one’s own community. Thank-you, Turgon

  • Nicknock furcckoff

    that reminds me, i must pay my gas bill

  • Greenflag

    ‘–the hundreds of thousands of ordinary people who were “only doing their job”. Think of that and you realize how easily some like the holocaust can happen again. ‘

    The best place to be a Jew in Europe in 1900 was in Germany . German Jews (Ashkenazi) formed a very large minority within the professional middle class . Many were marrying non jews some 25% IIRC . Eventually had there been no Nazis most German Jews would probabably have been assimilated . Hitler himself is even reputed to have had a jewish grandfather . So how did nazism happen ? And could it or something like it ever happen again ?

    Of course . All a society has to do is to fall on hard times – destroy it’s middle class financially and then wait to see where the fingers are pointed . Wait for the appropriate ‘demagogue’ to give voice to the popular mind -embellish it with some ludicrous mythological credo e.g ‘they are followers of the anti Christ – followers of the great Satan – fenian bastards – jaffa heads etc etc etc and let the mobs loose .

    It is worth remembering Burke when he said “evil triumphs when good men do nothing”.

    Well yes . Unfortunately it’s often the great and the good who do nothing when they are in power and then leave it until it’s too late to bring in the necessary reforms which would restore/maintain political peace . In divided societies like NI we’ve seen where this phenomenon eventually leads .

    But hey it could have been a lot worse !

  • Dewi

    Might want to clean this up Turgon.

  • GavBelfast

    Good to see that this Muslim Council of Britain have now also ceased their pathetic and rather cruel boycott of this day – small steps and all that.

    We must never forget.

  • Rory

    The crudity of the posts from “Ali the Arab” and the contrived mirror image presented by “Intelligence Insider” both smack of the low intelligence propaganda attempts by British Nazi groups who have long had close relations with their “blood brothers” within Ulster loyalist groups.

    The limited propaganda value that they hold depends upon the repugnance that might be felt at Zionist Israel’s continuing persecution of Palestinians in the execution of the theft of their homeland. Conversely this allows Zionism to argue (which it does quite forcefully and pretty successfully), that any criticism of their actions is necessarily anti-semetic and must spring from the same vein from wherein the mindset that led to the Holocaust once was nurtured.

    Let us not be fooled. To pretend that Nazism was all and only about the eradication of European Jewry is not only to insult the memory of those Jews who died as communists, homosexuals, trade unionists, writers, artists and simply decent courageous individuals but also ignores and insults the memory of those who died for being all of these and more and yet not Jewish.

    More, it is to forget. For if the next time, and that next time is ever close, they disguise themselves not as Jew-haters but as Muslim haters, say, will we not recognise them? And will Jews, christians, atheists or any of the citizens of broad humanity then be any safer than Muslims?

    They are begging us, you see, in their wordless way,
    To do something, to speak on their behalf
    Or at least not to close the door again.
    Lost people of Treblinka and Pompeii!
    ‘Save us, save us,’ they seem to say,
    ‘Let the god not abandon us
    Who have come so far in darkness and in pain.
    We too had our lives to live.
    You with your light meter and relaxed itinerary,
    Let not our naïve labours have been in vain!.

    from: Derek Mahon : A Disused Shed in County Wexford

  • RepublicanStones

    Martin Niemöller’s famous poem comes to mind, and illustrates perfectly the results of good men doing nothing !

  • Eireannach Saolta

    Turgon this one is directed at you.

    Paralells can be drawn and I need to draw more often between the Brownshorts and the Orange order. Both were and are quasi millitary organisation set up to intimidate the perceived enemy. The brownshirts anti semetic rhetoric is not altogether all that dissimilar to the OO’s anticatholic rhetoric. Both enjoy(ed) parading their millitarism on the streets.

  • Eireannach Saolta

    Last post should have read

    Turgon this one is directed at you.

    Paralells can be drawn and need to be drawn more often between the Brownshorts and the Orange order. Both were and are quasi millitary organisation set up to intimidate the perceived enemy. The brownshirts anti semetic rhetoric is not altogether all that dissimilar to the OO’s anticatholic rhetoric. Both enjoy(ed) parading their millitarism on the streets.

  • Turgon

    Eireannach Saolta,

    This is a blog about the holocaust and holocaust memorial day. There will be opportunities for you and me to discuss the Orange Order, though I usually leave its defence to people such as darth who are members of that organisation with I greatly respect but am not a member of.

    This is, however, not that time and I will not dignify your remarks with a rebuttal lest that distract from what I wanted to do with this post which was to highlight today.

  • dewi

    RS mentions Niemoller. Probably one of the most mis-quoted pieces of all time. Who can quote (without google) the first line correctly?

  • joeCanuck

    Disagreee about clean up, Dewi.
    We need to be reminded that those people are out there, closer than we think probably.

  • Rory

    Eireannach Saolta: “Last post should have read….”

    Paralells can be drawn …”

    Of course it really should have read :”Parallels can be drawn etc…..”

    As my geometry teacher asked when I drew a rhomboid when a square was required, “What the “l” is this?”.

  • Siphonophore

    Let us not forget that it was not just 6 million jews that were murdered by the Nazis in their concentration and death camps. 3 million others – Roma, Slavs, Soviet POWs, ethnic Poles, political dissenters, gays, disabled. These numbers neglect the millions of civilians the German war machine murdered – the overwhelming number of those were Russian and goes a long way to explaining, not excusing, why the invading Red army did the things it did to the German civilians.

    When I think of the holocaust I am always reminded of the unfortunate story of the SS St. Louis, which then makes me think of the Voyage of the Exodus. There have been so many genocides in human history all the way back to the first recorded genocide, the first one we know about, which was the complete eradication of the Canaanites by the Israelites and written down in the bible.

    But what is the fucking point of these days of remembrance when the world stands by and does nothing to stop the genocide going on right now in Darfur, the slaughter of millions in the Congo, did nothing to stop the genocide in Rwanda, in Srebnica, the Iraq sanctions of the 90s that murdered a million Iraqis, East Timor, Cambodia, the list of these crimes since the end of WWII alone is overwhelming and nauseating. It is no longer acceptable that governments with military, economic or political resources to stand by and do nothing while these crimes are committed. It is no longer acceptable to stand by and do nothing but raise memorials after the fact. This is truly a situation where if you are not part of the solution you ARE the problem.

  • Eireannach Saolta

    Just think about it turgon

  • Mark McGregor

    Dewi,

    You’d be hard pressed quoting it correctly as even Neimoller wasn’t sure of what he said the first time and altered it on many subsequent outings. People assume it was Communists but who knows.

  • HeadTheBall

    Eireannach Saolta,

    LMAO. Despite correcting your own first post you still failed to pick up on “brownshorts”. I thought they were “brownshirts”. Were the shorts brown because of material passed in emergencies?

  • Dewi

    First line mentions Communists in any Niemoller version:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…#United_States_Holocaust_Memorial_Museum
    Except in US holocaust museum.
    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007392

  • Eireannach Saolta

    This is, however, not that time and I will not dignify your remarks with a rebuttal lest that distract from what I wanted to do with this post which was to highlight today.

    Turgon

    Turgon since this website is about Northern Ireland politics and we are discussing the holocaust and the terrible culture of anti-Semitism and Xenophobia that supported this terrible tragic mass murder. Why can’t I draw parallels between two similar organizations such as the OO and the brownshirts. The OO was set up to keep the natives who happened to be catholic in line. The brownshirts played an active role in enforcing Nazi anti-Semitism. Every summer we watch the same marches celebrating a massive act of mass murder of the natives defending their homes and families as if it was something WONDERFUL AND GLORIOUS. Just think what’d be the reaction if people started parading round Germany with Nazi armbands (Similar to the orange sash) celebrating the removal Jews from German society. There’d be uproar and it’d be condemned

  • Ben

    It didn’t take Rory long to get his traditional licks in. His eagerness to poke at Israel replicates the eagerness of so many here (in Sluggerland, just like everywhere else) to reduce, to simplify, to see in black and white (or green and orange). Hey Rory, guess what, Zionists come in all stripes, and if you stopped being a bigot, you might find you have something in common with some of them. In the meantime, you have more in common with Ali the Arab. ALL groups come with variety, so yes there were many types of victims of Nazi Germany, including some good German Christians, etc. etc. Why take the commemoration of such a great evil and dumb it down with tired rehearsals of the same old shite??? Sodom and Gemorrah stopped existing a long time ago, but the search for good and wise people among the masses should continue. Holocaust Remembrance Day is a fine time to start looking.
    Ben

  • Harry Flashman

    Is there a Neimoller poem for the victims of the much larger holocaust carried out by the Communists?

  • RepublicanStones

    Ben your belief that Rory’s post is anyway similar to Ali the arab is complete bullshit. your right however there are different types of zionists. they can basically be broken down into 3 types, ‘labour zionists’, ‘cultural zionists’ and ‘political zionists’. each are still of the opinion however that the Palestinian land is fair game. as this is a post relating to the holocaust, i’ll leave my beef with the evils of zionism for another day. to end… a few recommendations book wise for anyone wishing to learn a bit more regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    ‘Image and Reality of the Israeli-Palestine Conflict’
    Dr Norman Finkelstein

    ‘Hollow Land’
    Eyal Weizman.

    on thread…Niemöller’s poem

    P.S dewi communists is the first one i have read…although i have read versions which include ‘catholics’ and ‘blacks’ which im pretty sure weren’t in his version !

  • Harry Flashman

    Who are the “Palestinians”? Are they like the “Northern Irish”, a sort of pseudo-nationality created by British officials drawing some borders on a map?

    As I recall the “Palestinians” got a state, it’s still there, it’s called Jordan.

    If Palestinians constitute a separate people as opposed to being simply Egyptian and Jordanian Arabs who lived in the British Mandate of “Palestine”, shouldn’t the Israeli Arabs be correctly referred to as Israeli-Palestinians?

    I only ask.

  • Star of the County Down

    Thanks for the anecdote, Turgon – very moving.

    Shame the thread’s been hijacked though – Eireannach Saolta in particular should take himself along to the republican commemorations of Sean Russell in Fairview Park to see the true face of unreconstructed Irish fascism, past and present…

  • Harry,

    It seems we both agree that the IDF should withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza then?

    regards

  • Mark

    Whilst the poem in question understandably will always be associated with Niemoller, I do not believe he wrote it, he merely adapted it somewhat, if I remember correctly it was one of those poems/songs like House of the Rising Sun that no one seems to know where it originated and which are usually described as anon on the CD cover etc.

    Mick

  • joeCanuck

    Each night for the past 3 nights, I have watched different programs on the Holocaust on the History Channel.
    Strangely, I had thought I had cried all I ever would over this vile happening, but not so.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>More, it is to forget. For if the next time, and that next time is ever close, they disguise themselves not as Jew-haters but as Muslim haters, say, will we not recognise them? And will Jews, christians, atheists or any of the citizens of broad humanity then be any safer than Muslims?<< Rory Great point, not bad for someone your age and experience ;¬)! Sure we had a great Muslim hater on the other day waxing lyrical about his hatred of the Irish language and probably all things Irish, goes by the name of Waco Dave in some parts. The need to hate is there, it only needs a home, and as Eireannach Saolta quite rightly points out there are Catholic haters. How can anyone possibly disect the difference? Perhaps it is all too close to home. True story(from his own mouth); an alcoholic Orangeman at an AA meeting sheds all the discomfort of his former life. Confesses that he was a bad racist, beat up the missus, starved the family of money etc. For all of this he was truly sorry. When I asked him why he now felt so bad about hating other races, yet gladly hangs on to the vestiges of hate directed at his own race. Whose apparent crime is being a catholic in a post religious society. Well at least I got an embarrassed shrug.

  • Ben

    You do a fine job of not getting the point Stones, or else you don’t know many Zionists. Sure, you can use that typology to charactise some of the main political currents, but that doesn’t get at the fact that most Israelis endorse the right of their state to exist (that makes the Jews Zionists and the Palestinian Israelis realists) but also endorse the right of the Palestinians to have a state of their own. At that point it’s an argument about boundaries, and there, too, there is a range of opinions. Anyone in here who posits that all Zionists believe that Israel and an independent Palestinian state are mutually exclusive (what’s the current number, 70% of Israelis support a two state solution, something like that) is either ignorant or willfully distorting things. Which are you? Cheers, Ben

  • Dread Cthulhu

    joeCanuck: “Therein lies a potential problem. As the relatively few survivors pass on, there are fewer to personally give the lie to the deniers.

    I trust their testimonies are securely archived. ”

    Until the next generation of populist book-burners arrive.

    One would have thought that some Muslims — those who know history, as a minimum, might have the good sense to be silent — bomb-throwing on matters such as this is simply an invitiation to bring the Muslim auxilliariies in the SS, recruited in Yugoslavia…

  • Harry Flashman

    *It seems we both agree that the IDF should withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza then?*

    As I recall the Israelis did withdraw from Gaza, and we were assured that the “Palestinians” would create a new Singapore in their liberated territory, Bill Gates donated millions of dollars to them to buy the magnificent glasshouses and fruit farms left behind the departing Israelis.

    Remind me how that worked out again? Oh right mobs of Arabs smashed and destroyed the infrastructure left behind for them and started lobbing rockets into their Israeli neighbours.

    Gaza, so nice even the Egyptians build a big wall around it to keep them in.

  • Harry,

    So you don’t agee that the IDF should withdraw from the west bank and ‘completely’ from gaza, If you guys who support Zionism have such a love of fruit trees, perhaps you could ask your mates to cease destroying countless olive groves to build their obscene and silly wall; and whilst you are at it remind them by helping to create a ghetto in Gaza they are spitting on the graves of their forbears who experienced the holocaust.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mick Hall: “So you don’t agee that the IDF should withdraw from the west bank and ‘completely’ from gaza, If you guys who support Zionism have such a love of fruit trees, perhaps you could ask your mates to cease destroying countless olive groves to build their obscene and silly wall; and whilst you are at it remind them by helping to create a ghetto in Gaza they are spitting on the graves of their forbears who experienced the holocaust. ”

    That’s it, Mick — keep pounding your shoe on the table.

    The Palistinians are their own worst enemies — their moderates are kleptocrats and their alternative to the kleptocrats are the radicals who keep blowing things up without regard to the suffering their actions inflict upon the people they purport to defend. Reminds me of someone else…

    Say what you will about the seperation wall, but it works, cutting the terrorists access to Israel. And why no howls about the Egyptian wall? Should not the Egyptians be held accountable for their policies as well?

    The Palistinians let the Arabs sell them a pig in a poke, promising a quick war back in 1948. That the Israelis had the unmitigated gall to put lie to the Arab’s promises is a matter of history. Mayhap it is the Arabs who should be apologizing to the Palistinians, rather than ensuring their continued suffering as a result of both the Arabs’ and the Palistians’ folly.

  • Ben

    Gaza has been a ghetto since 1948… when it was occupied by Egypt. Only two countries have given citizenship to Palestinians: Israel, to those left inside the state boundaries in 1948 and East Jerusalem after 1967, and Jordan, to those in the West Bank, which it occupied 1948-1967. Who didn’t give citizenship to the Palestinians? Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, Iraq, Northern Ireland, etc. etc. In my view, the Palestinians in Gaza are truly screwed, and their situation is untenable. But for all that Mick and Rory rage against Israel, the situation of the Palestinians won’t improve. It’s a zero-sum situation: what’s bad for the Palestinians is bad for Israel, and what’s bad for Israel is bad for the Palestinians, albeit not in identical proportions or ways. What’s constructive for one side is also constructive for the other. Irish invective isn’t going to help either (oh, and by the way, the Palstinians don’t give a shit about Ireland and can’t find it on a map). But don’t mind me, I’m only speaking from experience. Ben

  • Harry
    You may have a point about the Arab regimes, but it is not the arab governments who are occupying the west bank nor oppressing the people of Gaza by depriving them of electricity and the right to travel, now is it. The same goes for the government of Egypt.

    If the Israelis wished to build a wall around the state the UN and the Zionists created in 48/49 that is their right, although it would be a dreadful tragedy, but the wall in question is being built to steal more Palestinian land and you know it and it is now the main reason why an honorable and therefor lasting peace is not impossible.

    You seem to have no balance in you judgments on this, you correctly demand that Palestinian militants stop firing fireworks, all be it very dangerous ones, into israel yet you have nothing to say about the wall and the missiles and artillery barrages that the IDF fire into gaza.

    GH, you are a nasty provocateur who pretends not to understand the difference between a small war and a holocaust, why you are being allowed to spout anti Semitic drivel is a mystery to me.

  • Ben,

    It is impossible not to rage against the Israeli government at the moment,indeed anyone who is against oppression and injustice would do so as the way the Israel’s government are treating the people of Gaza is despicable.

    What the current government in Israel is doing is turning the whole world against the State of Israel, which is a very dangerous thing to do, especially as the US administration is converting the State of Iraq into a 21st century submarine from which it can manipulate the middle east without having to pay a massive stipend to Israel.

    Your are mistaken in that Palestinians do not know anything about Ireland and if I may say so being insulting. Palestinians are like all other nationalities, some take an interest in the world beyond their shore others do not, after all millions of americans once thought baghdad was somewhere in the mid west.

  • Sorry Dread the post above was mainly to you not Harry, same to H.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mick Hall: “You may have a point about the Arab regimes, but it is not the arab governments who are occupying the west bank nor oppressing the people of Gaza by depriving them of electricity and the right to travel, now is it. The same goes for the government of Egypt.”

    Only as a direct consequnce of Arab militarism. When you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action.

    Mick Hall: “If the Israelis wished to build a wall around the state the UN and the Zionists created in 48/49 that is their right, although it would be a dreadful tragedy, but the wall in question is being built to steal more Palestinian land and you know it and it is now the main reason why an honorable and therefor lasting peace is not impossible. ”

    Bollocks. Hamas has made the promise of a Judenrein Middle East. So has Fatah, albeit on a slower time-table.

    And, as I said, rail against the wall all you want — but you cannot deny that the wall works at preventing terrorist attacks. Likewise, walling off the Palistinians from access to Israel is a direct result of the Palistinian’s actions — why should I grieve over their short-sightedness?

    Mick Hall: “You seem to have no balance in you judgments on this, you correctly demand that Palestinian militants stop firing fireworks, all be it very dangerous ones, into israel yet you have nothing to say about the wall and the missiles and artillery barrages that the IDF fire into gaza. ”

    Cause and effect, Mick. It is the same as my decrying some idiot throwing sodium into the Charles River and not decrying the state’s response to this foolishness. I have made clear that the wall fufills its stated purpose. Likewise, were the Palistinians not blowing setting off bombs in pizza joints and bus stops, I have little doubt that the wall would not be built — even if it is a land grab, the Palistinians handed the trowel to the Israelis — hell, in some cases, the Palistinians are going so far as to supply the concrete.

    The Palistinians and the Arabs *CHOSE* to go to war with Israel. In doing so, they chose the consequences of their actions. That they didn’t understand the down-side risk is neither here nor there. I see no particular reason to give them a free “do-over.” If they want to negotiate in good faith, they are free to do so. If the Israelis want to give back the land, they are free to do so.

    That said, the Palistinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I suspect that was Sharon’s point in giving them Gaza — to show the world what a Palistinian state would look like.

    Mick Hall: “Sorry Dread the post above was mainly to you not Harry, same to H. ”

    Yeah, I know — we all look alike to you.

  • Ben

    You’re right Mick, some Palestinians know and care about Ireland, foolish of me to fall into the trap of simplification and rhetorical excess that I lament here, so I stand chastised. I should stick to my criticism of some of the criticism of Israel. I’m a critic of Israel myself you understand, and as I pointed out earlier, the people of Gaza are truly screwed. As always, their victimisation is a hodge podge of “big game” forces, Middle Eastern currents, the aspiration of the Jews to live in their own country (which does not include any land in Gaza), and their own home grown ineptitude. Putting it all on Israel is unwise, unfair, and ignorant, and context counts.

    As to the West Bank wall, it does indeed take in some Palestinian land that should be left to the Palestinians, and there is evil in that. It’s also true that the boundary there isn’t like US-Canada, and incursions are something that Israel has to take seriously. Until they sort that out, I’m sure you make note when Palestinians make successful appeals to Israel’s High Court (in cases argued by Israeli lawyers, with the help of Israeli NGOs) to have the route of the wall altered so as to lessen its impact or restore some of those lands. Israel is full of imperfections, but Arabs get a better shake there in terms of civil rights than they do in most Arab states. Not perfect, but worth considering given the trauma that both sides have and continue to suffer.

    I appreciate the respectful tone of some of your posts, I’ll do my best to match it. Ben

  • Ben

    Your right there is much to admire about Israel, indeed I have members of my own family living there, not least the civil society, the anti war movement and things like the large demonstrations against the massacres in sabra and shattila, plus the fact that governments there feel secure in their democratic mandate.

    In truth I feel that the Bush administration will turn out to have been as disastrous for the Israeli State as it has been for Palestinians.

    The Palestinians have been crying out to cut an honorable deal with Israel based on two states, even Hamas imo would go there yet the US has actively encouraged Israel intransigence.

    All the best

  • Harry Flashman

    “The Palestinians have been crying out to cut an honorable deal with Israel based on two states,”

    Since when? Since 2000? They were offered the best chance ever then and responded by sending wee girls strapped with semtex into pizza joints.

  • andy

    “The palestinians chose to go to war with the israelis”… Invited them(zionists) in from Eastern Europe in the 30s and 40s did they? They positively encouraged them (zionists) to blow up the king david hotel, carry out the deir yessin massacre did they?
    I dont think so. If we were discussing how palestinians were attacking jewish communities in europe to create their own promised land then we could talk about them choosing to go to war.

    HF
    The “best chance ever” would never have been accepted by any other state leader – it maintained a series of israeli controlled roads and secured settlements. The Palis response – rioting at first war crime suicide bombs later, was very poor, although a lot of that rioting was provoked by war crim Ariel Sharon touring the al-asqa mosque.

    I dont mean to blame israel for all the ills of the middle east (Ben I do actually agree with a lot of what you have said), certainly it would have been better if the arabs had agreed peace in 48 – however I think blame should be attached where due, and I dont like the way the Palestinians are demonised for making a few bad moves.

    To echo Mick Hall I also find the comparison between an occasionally over-brutal counter-insurgency campaign with genocide absolutely disgusting.

  • RepublicanStones

    Ben im well aware that there are zionists who believe in a two state solution, but that doesn’t absolve them from the fact that israel sits ontop of former plaestinian land. it seems this thread has dredged up the usaul israeli/zionist apologists who seek to condemn any criticism of israel as being wrong, and seek to lump the majority of the blame for the situation with the palestinians. in mentioning the tactics used by the palestinians,suicide bombings etc, they completely ignore the cause which forced the suicide bomber into such a desperate act. suicide bombing may be an act of agression, but it is also an act of desperation. gunships firing hellfire rockets into civilian areas is no act of desperation. people are very quick to condemn the palestinian resistance as terrorists, but will turn a blind eye to israeli state terrorism. they will also completely ignore the fact that the Israeli state was founded through terrorism and blackmail. what about the activities of the Irgun, Stern gang. The Carmeli Brigade/Palmah. what about the numerous massacres the IDF carried out against the indigenous palestinian population. people are also quick to hark to the UN vote for the creation of an Israeli state, what people will not mention however is how that vote was forced through. they will not mention the backstage manipulation by America. James Forrestal, the secretary of defence described it as ‘coercion and duress on other nations’ which ‘bordered on scandal’. for instance, the Firestone tyre and rubber company which had plantations in Liberia, and was a huge employer, brought pressure to bear on the Liberian govt. it was hinted to Latin america delegates that their vote for partition would gratly increase the likelihood of a pan-american road system. one country who was at first passionately opposed to the partition plan was the phillipines, strangely ended up voting for it, nothing to do with the seven lucrative bills awaiting the approval of congress you understand !
    People are also quick to condemn the surrounding Arab nations for the plight of the Palestinians, believing that Arab radio broadcasts promised a quick war and instructed the palestinians to flee their villages. this has been shown to be another coup for the zionist propaganda machine. this was demonstrated to be false by Erskine Childers and a palestinian scholar called Walid Khalidi as early as the 1960’s. they examined the back files of the near East monitoring stations of the british and American govts (both of which covered not only all radio stations in the near east but the local newspapers too) and found no evidence of such Arab orders. the fact that this lie is still held to be fact is again brilliant work on behalf of the Israeli state and outside benefactors. in fact the broadcasts of that era from the AHC instructed the palestinians to resist and to stay. One simple question illustrates the lie, why would an advancing army, coming a long distance with many logistical troubles, tell a friendly population it would need to rely on for water, food, fuel, information etc to flee ? that makes absolutley no sense !
    One wonders at the ease with which some people will accept what they are told without question !

  • hmmmmmm !

    hmmmmmm strange goings on indeed !