Consultative group pointed in the wrong direction?

Interesting thoughts from Dean Godson on the Consultative Group on the Past, who argues that the seeming emphasis on Government crime during the Troubles is hardly appropriate when the bulk of the killings where committed by anti state actors:

The modus operandi of the consultative group is strange indeed. Oddly, for a body meant to deal with the past, no professional historians sit on it. Instead, its approach seems heavily conditioned by academic experts in “transitional justice” and “conflict resolution” – whose framework of analysis is governed by international analogies such as South Africa’s emergence from apartheid.

Concepts such as “transitional justice” may be suitable for describing events in South Africa, Guatemala or Argentina, where state forces committed the lion’s share of the atrocities. They have no place in Northern Ireland where the lion’s share of the atrocities was committed by terrorists.

The leaks from the consultative group suggest that its focus will be on British state crimes. Why? Surely the role of elements of the Irish State in setting up the Provisionals in 1970 is at least as worthwhile a subject of inquiry. Why are there never inquiries into the IRA’s campaign of ethnic cleansing in Fermanagh?

Even if all parties were to be treated in the same way, the outcomes would still be inequitable. Just consider the potential disparity between subpoenaed records of the British Army and those of the IRA. Besides which, how can one have any kind of serious historical reckoning when Gerry Adams still denies that he was ever a member of the IRA?

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  • kensei

    “Concepts such as “transitional justice” may be suitable for describing events in South Africa, Guatemala or Argentina, where state forces committed the lion’s share of the atrocities. They have no place in Northern Ireland where the lion’s share of the atrocities was committed by terrorists.”

    This is whataboutery of the worst kind. What about the IRA? What about it? It does not absolve the state of the responsibility to act within the law and, significantly, my taxes don’t pay for the IRA.

    Moreover, we do not know the extent of the state’s involvement or the degree to which they were running loyalists. Seriously, does no Unionist understand the difference between the state murdering people and extra state actors? No one?

    “Surely the role of elements of the Irish State in setting up the Provisionals in 1970”

    More whataboutery. Is this the Arms Trial he’s talking about? There was a court case and as far as I’m, aware the facts are generally well known.

    “Why are there never inquiries into the IRA’s campaign of ethnic cleansing in Fermanagh?”

    There was no ethnic cleansing anywhere here. That’d be the MOPE then.

  • nmc

    Concepts such as “transitional justice” have no place in Northern Ireland

    Transitional Justice? Ye gads man your right how could anyone talk of our miniscule problems in such a way.

    Why are there never inquiries into the IRA’s campaign of ethnic cleansing in Fermanagh?

    Yes ethnic cleansing, exactly. Fermanagh, Rwanda and Kosovo. Just they moan more than us that’s why your hear more about them.

    No obvious bias there. Ethnic cleansing is a useful term when talking about the IRA but transitional justice is too far out when talking about the police and forces of the state, who are to be held to the same level of account as the people who break the law.

    Let me pose a counter question to anyone out there: What’s he moaning about? He wants an enquiry into Irish State IRA complicity in the 70s, so why doesn’t he try to set one up? In what way is his desire for this enquiry or that enquiry a legitimate attack on another inquiry which someone got up off their arse and set up?

  • pfhl

    I mind reading this in the Times, Kensei has already highlighted the point about the free state. The arms trail was quite public and ministers resigned who had been involved. He is making up facts at the end to prove his point. Poor journalism from the Times i must say.

    Just consider the potential disparity between subpoenaed records of the British Army and those of the IRA.

    Are we being led to believe that the British army will tell the truth in all matters and let all its records be opened. What a laughable suggestion.

  • pfhl, you don’t believe the army will tell the truth. I have no doubt Sinn Fein won’t tell the truth. So why are we bothering at all?

    If the group is focusing exclusively or disproportionately on one side then that IS an issue. Wasn’t Gerry Adams himself on TV yesterday saying that victims must be treated equally, or are some victims more equal than others? Are the IRA’s victims not victims? (But IRA assassins are?)

  • willowfield

    Seriously, does no Unionist understand the difference between the state murdering people and extra state actors? No one?

    Ironically, in seeking to call the Troubles a “war”, nationalists are saying that there is no such difference.

  • When Dean Godson talks about ‘professional historians’ does he mean those historians that accept the official British version of what happened in the north?

    And when he talks about the ‘lion’s share of atrocities’ being committed by terrorists, why does he not mention the allegations, supported by a great deal of credible evidence, that the atrocities committed by both loyalist and republican ‘terrorists’ were done at the behest of the British forces?

    Of course the irony is that Godson’s admission of involvement by state forces in ‘crime’, albeit not the lion’s share, indicates that he’s perfectly happy to put up with an acceptable level of state criminality.

    And he places, unwittingly, terrorists and the British forces on the same scale, to be measured one against the other. So his argument is that the British state forces are not as bad as the terrorists….It’s a bit like haggling over the price of a souvenir in a Middle East Bazaar.

  • pfhl

    If the group is focusing exclusively or disproportionately on one side then that IS an issue.

    I hope that the process does not end up with everybody doing what sinn fein thinks is right either. I hope it does come down to people admitting responsibility for their actions. I have more trust in IRA volunteers doing this than i have in the british state who would have much more to loose such as an admission of torture and the murder of its own citizens. It is well documented that the IRA carried out many cruel deeds for which many spent years in prison and of course some died. These victims of the state do not deserve the truth more but much less has been done so far in establishing the truth behind these state crimes. This suggests they are not important. I think most know how victims of state violence did not have rights if it got in the way of informers and their handlers. My hope is that this group when tackiling state crime does not focus on only nationalist victims but the effect it has had on loyalist communities. They paid drug dealers and pimps. They faciitated in the murder those who stood in the way of their paid informers. The state forces that have allowed their informers firm grip over the communities in which they live must be held to account like drug dealers, murderers and pimps should be. I would lke to point out that although i have stated i have more faith in IRA volunteers being more truthful i do not believe they all will by any stretch of the imagination and any set up will rely on a great deal of trust from the population as a whole.

    Wasn’t Gerry Adams himself on TV yesterday saying that victims must be treated equally, or are some victims more equal than others? Are the IRA’s victims not victims? (But IRA assassins are?)

    I am looking for equality for victims. This has not happened in the past. I never suggested the IRA’s victims are not victims, of course they deserve the truth. In many cases they already have achieved this through the courts though those who have yet to get justice and truth, fully deserve it.

    If the group is focusing exclusively or disproportionately on one side then that IS an issue.

    This is what the state done for years, it is funny unionism complains about it now when the shoe is on the other foot though i do disagree with this approach amd both sides must be investigated.

  • willowfield

    When Dean Godson talks about ‘professional historians’ does he mean those historians that accept the official British version of what happened in the north?

    I wouldn’t think so – I imagine he just means ‘professional historians’. What is the “official British version” and which historians “accept” it?

    And when he talks about the ‘lion’s share of atrocities’ being committed by terrorists, why does he not mention the allegations, supported by a great deal of credible evidence, that the atrocities committed by both loyalist and republican ‘terrorists’ were done at the behest of the British forces?

    Maybe because the allegations are exaggerated. There is no doubt that the information supplied by agents was disgracefully considered more valuable than some lives, but to characterise the terrorist campaigns as being carried out at the “behest” of “British forces” is ludicrous.

    Of course the irony is that Godson’s admission of involvement by state forces in ‘crime’, albeit not the lion’s share, indicates that he’s perfectly happy to put up with an acceptable level of state criminality.

    How does it indicate that? I acknowledge involvement of “state forces” in crime, but that does not mean I am happy to put up with an acceptable level of state criminality. There’s a complete absence of logic in your statement.

    And he places, unwittingly, terrorists and the British forces on the same scale, to be measured one against the other.

    How does he do that? He merely observes that the NI troubles cannot be characterised in the same way as events in the other mentioned countries, on the basis that in NI the violence was driven by terrorists, unlike in the other countries.

    So his argument is that the British state forces are not as bad as the terrorists….It’s a bit like haggling over the price of a souvenir in a Middle East Bazaar.

    It is true that “British state forces” are not as bad as terrorists: they protected society against terrorist crime whereas the terrorists inflicted the crime on society. Indeed, more than being “not as bad” as terrorists, the “state forces” were essentially “good”.

    You seek – for self-serving purposes – to exaggerate state wrong-doing so as to portray it as the norm, thereby attempting to characterise the legitimate state authorities as equivalent to the terrorist murder gangs. The reality was different: wrong-doing was the exception.

  • pfhl

    Maybe because the allegations are exaggerated. There is no doubt that the information supplied by agents was disgracefully considered more valuable than some lives, but to characterise the terrorist campaigns as being carried out at the “behest” of “British forces” is ludicrous.

    When have these allegations been properly investigated that you are sure they are exaggerated? Surely this could be investigated by the resulting processs so the truth can be found out. What about the fact that the head of the IRA nutting squad was an informer. How many people were killed to protect this agent. Of course state forces played no part in this though. The main point though is that we must not speculate on events like this but investigate the truth. Maybe unionism is scared of the truth of the true scale of british involvment in murder.

  • pfhl

    The reality was different: wrong-doing was the exception.

    So we keep being told by the police and unionist politicians. Surely a commision will establish the truth to this statement

  • pfhl

    Besides which, how can one have any kind of serious historical reckoning when Gerry Adams still denies that he was ever a member of the IRA?

    A peach from Godson, nobody deserves justivce because Gerry Adams lies. How this can even be considered as an excuse to stop us seeking the truth shows an absolute disregard for any victims of the troubles. People know Gerry lies, he is a politician after all. Ian Paisley is selective with his memory as well. This is just silly as many victims of state forces were in no way supportive of Sinn Fein so i do not see how Gerry Adams’ character has anything to do with this question.

  • willowfield

    When have these allegations been properly investigated that you are sure they are exaggerated?

    Simple common sense tells us that they are exaggerated. If terrorist gangs were merely an arm of the state, the state would hardly have invested so much in hunting down terrorists and putting them through the criminal justice system.

    I’m not sure what specific allegations you refer to, but the McCord case was investigated by the Ombudsman.

    Surely this could be investigated by the resulting processs so the truth can be found out.

    How would it be found out?

    What about the fact that the head of the IRA nutting squad was an informer. How many people were killed to protect this agent. Of course state forces played no part in this though. The main point though is that we must not speculate on events like this but investigate the truth. Maybe unionism is scared of the truth of the true scale of british involvment in murder.

    You don’t need a “truth commission” with amnesties, etc., to find out the truth. There must be a means of establishing the truth through the criminal justice system and – most importantly – bringing to justice those who committed crimes.

    So we keep being told by the police and unionist politicians. Surely a commision will establish the truth to this statement

    How?

  • willowfield

    A peach from Godson, nobody deserves justivce because Gerry Adams lies. How this can even be considered as an excuse to stop us seeking the truth shows an absolute disregard for any victims of the troubles.

    I think the point he makes is that a “truth commission” is pointless because Adams and his colleagues are liars. If a commission can’t achieve its purpose what is the point of setting one up?

  • pfhl

    You keep asking me how. I honestly can say i do not know every answer to achieve justice in Northern Ireland. I do not have any faith in the criminal justice system to do this as it has been a failure in the past. If new ideas must be investigated i will allow this to come to a conclusion before shooting it down straight away as Godson would do.

    I’m not sure what specific allegations you refer to, but the McCord case was investigated by the Ombudsman.

    One case was investigated. Who was brought to justice? It is you that keeps talking about justice. I pay all credit to Raymond McCord Snr for his fight for justice but he was denied it.

    There must be a means of establishing the truth through the criminal justice system and – most importantly – bringing to justice those who committed crimes.

    I will stop short of asking ‘how?’. Where is the evidence that they would act fairly? There is quite a bit of evidence how the criminal justice system has failed in the past, im sure i do not need to start listing them.

  • steve

    Willowfield
    Simple common sense tells us that they are exaggerated. If terrorist gangs were merely an arm of the state, the state would hardly have invested so much in hunting down terrorists and putting them through the criminal justice system

    Thats the whole point isnt it? The history of nIreland is littered with cases where the state forces did no such thing and when they were presented with credible evidence it was “lost” or “destroyed by accident” and no prosecutions were under taken.

    The state did run a murder machine, accept it already

  • willowfield

    You keep asking me how. I honestly can say i do not know every answer to achieve justice in Northern Ireland. I do not have any faith in the criminal justice system to do this as it has been a failure in the past. If new ideas must be investigated i will allow this to come to a conclusion before shooting it down straight away as Godson would do.

    Only a fool would believe that a “truth commission” would achieve its aim. Martin McGuinness wouldn’t even co-operate with the Saville Inquiry because of the Provo “code of honour”.

    One case was investigated. Who was brought to justice? It is you that keeps talking about justice. I pay all credit to Raymond McCord Snr for his fight for justice but he was denied it.

    Mr McCord doesn’t want amnesties: he wants people brought to justice.

    We also must acknowledge that sometimes (often) justice is not done. What proportion of crimes are solved? Justice cannot be done unless there is sufficient evidence.

    Where is the evidence that they would act fairly?

    That who would act fairly?

  • pfhl

    I think the point he makes is that a “truth commission” is pointless because Adams and his colleagues are liars. If a commission can’t achieve its purpose what is the point of setting one up?

    I think i got his point, did you read on by any chance, why should other victims suffer because Gerry is a liar? The purpose is to give it a chance and offer incentives for telling the truth. This is not a one sided thing. But then again people know what the IRA have done in the past. We know of the bombs and the shootings. We do not know what each volunteer done as an individual but it is still more than we know of the security forces involvement.

  • willowfield

    Thats the whole point isnt it? The history of nIreland is littered with cases where the state forces did no such thing and when they were presented with credible evidence it was “lost” or “destroyed by accident” and no prosecutions were under taken. The state did run a murder machine, accept it already

    Just ignore the thousands put through the courts and convicted, then.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    WF

    In the wake of the Omagh trial, your faith in the justice system is touching!

    pfhl

    Can I recommend that what you quote other commenters, you use italics or quote marks to separate them from your own remarks? Just makes things easier to follow. To use italics, type before the quote, and after it, omitting the spaces.

  • pfhl

    no problem gonzo

  • pfhl

    That who would act fairly?

    The criminal justice system

    Mr McCord doesn’t want amnesties: he wants people brought to justice.

    Who did this criminal justice system we are to put our faith in bring to justice?

  • pfhl

    We also must acknowledge that sometimes (often) justice is not done. What proportion of crimes are solved? Justice cannot be done unless there is sufficient evidence.

    Who was Mark Haddock’s handler, im guessing he police know. Why was he allowed to cover up a murder? Is he above the law?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Fully agree with this article.

    As he says: “If the British State had really been fighting a war’, few of the Sinn Fein/IRA godfathers would have survived to tell the tale.”

    And he is right to talk about ethnic cleansing around the border. Protestants were murdered and then the family farm had to be sold. Others were forced to flee due to threats. Perhaps the new ‘peaceful’ SF IRA could compensate the victims with some of the money they have stolen over the years.

    The situation in Londonderry was also a form of ethnic cleansing. Murders and bombings with the threat against the rest of the Protestant community forcing them to move. Yet the Butcher of the Bogside is not interested in these victims and Pan Nationalists on here are in denial. And the Pat Finucane centre for human rights is only interested in the rights of Pan Nationalists.

    Also “… the role of elements of the Irish State in setting up the Provisionals in 1970 …” should be investigated further. Or should Unionists accept the verdict of one court case while Pan Nationalists call for endless enquiries into other incidents.

    We also had the shameful situation where Sinn Fein IRA murderers were living openly in the Republic. An EU state which was a safe haven for terrorists.

    And as he says “how can one have any kind of serious historical reckoning when Gerry Adams still denies that he was ever a member of the IRA?”. Yet Adams claims to want justice for all victims. I assume SF IRA define victims differently to everyone else.

    If the well meaning but politically naive Eames gets duped by Bradley and calls it a war then Adams and McGuinness must be tried for war crimes.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Willows

    “You seek – for self-serving purposes – to exaggerate state wrong”

    There is very strong evidence (though not absolute proof) that the British used loyalist parmilitaries as proxies to eliminate SF members and Provos.

    The extent of state wrong is not known and will not be short of a proper impartial enquiry into such events.

    There is a large degree of moral equivlance here and that is reflected in the British government’s attitude in not ruling out describing the conflict as a ‘war ‘ and in the way they have dealt with and spoken of their enemies in the conflict ie SF/IRA and in terms of the GFA/STA settlement.

    The British appear to have called it about right.

  • pfhl

    Just ignore the thousands put through the courts and convicted, then.

    Good to see willowfield recognise how many republicans have already been brought to justice. What about the security forces now?

  • ulsterfan

    pfhl

    You seem to be confident that IRA volunteers would co operate in some form of Truth Commission.
    What is your evidence for saying so?
    Has one IRA member broken ranks to tell of his involvement and to implicate others. I can not remember anyone doing so except for Informers.
    SF have always been economical with the truth and had problems knowing the difference between truth and fiction/propaganda.
    They are not willing to tell what happened because history will judge them harshly and succeeding generations of Irishmen of all hues will hold them responsible for making a UI impossible for at least another 50 years if ever .
    They really made a mess of the constitutional issue when all they wanted was civil rights which incidentally were not denied for the past 30 years and all this in pursuit of power and protection of a criminal empire.
    That is their sordid contribution to modern Ireland.
    A Truth commission is not required, or rather impossible to have, because none of the participants IRA/UDA/UVF and British Establishment want to tell the FULL truth .
    I can live with this and hope that historians/journalists will be able to provide us with information.

  • The Dubliner

    “Ironically, in seeking to call the Troubles a “war”, nationalists are saying that there is no such difference.”

    Good point. But it also means that war criminals were elected to run the State. That, however, would all change if the status of the murder gangs/civil strife was changed to ‘armies/war’ and if the international community recognised the change as actual rather than political, placing an obligation on them to seek the extradition of war criminals for trail in the Hague were others to bring a case against them.

    Even if the status doesn’t change (and it won’t), if nationalists so concerned about the State murdering its citizens, why did they elect murderers to run the State? There is scant moral difference between a State that murders and a State run by murderers. The practical difference is that State (at least, its Intelligence Agencies) are not under the control of those who have murdered more of the State’s citizens than they have.

    About the Consultative Group, whatever expedient they devise to investigate the past (always present) has to ensure that atrocities that your current Executive ministers and other senior figures with PSF are responsible for are unlikely to be detected. The last thing either government wants is any protected politico being embarrassed. You only have to look at Paul Quinn to grasp that the State is still protecting people in violation of its moral and legal responsibilities, and doing so blatantly and without any effective means of democratic censure (we all still vote for them because we don’t make any connection). Ergo, Gerry Adams role as Belfast Commander of PIRA in devising the policy of ‘Disappearing’ people as a means of violating human rights so admired that it was adopted by General Pinochet two years later isn’t really something that the governments want the citizens to ponder upon lest they ponder about the psychopaths they elected.

    Funny old place, the North.

  • steve

    P&J;If the well meaning but politically naive Eames gets duped by Bradley and calls it a war then Adams and McGuinness must be tried for war crimes

    Not Adams so much as he has never admitted nor has any one ever produced any credible evidence for him ever being a member of the IRA

    But ole maggie, the cabinet and most of the RUC/security forces Brass would be in the dock as well. Torture and the denial of basic rights to prisoners of war are still crimes

  • ulsterfan

    steve

    The security forces were never held responsible for torture.
    I suppose you have some evidence?

  • willowfield

    Not Adams so much as he has never admitted nor has any one ever produced any credible evidence for him ever being a member of the IRA

    Photographs don’t count, then?

    Opting to be interned/imprisoned in the PIRA wing doesn’t count?

    Negotiating with Whitelaw on behalf of the PIRA doesn’t count?

    “The missing years” don’t count?

  • nmc

    Various posters seem to be of the opinion that in order to have an inquiry, every witness has to be lined up ready to co-operate. The truth of the matter is that where there is an inquiry it is because the various parties will not co-operate, and therefore a third party is charged to investigate the available evidence and produce a viable conclusion.

    So who gives a fuck if the IRA or the Army co-operate fully. No-one really expects that, specifically of the army, bearing in mind that IRA volunteers have nothing to lose – especially in a public enquiry where convictions could not be sought against witnesses.

    What is interesting is P&J;and others saying that on one hand there won’t be a queue of voluunteers and soldiers waiting to give evidence so investigation is pointless, while on the other hand suggesting that there should be inquiries into population movement in Fermanagh and Southern apathy towards the IRA in the 70s.

    Why do you think that witnesses would co-operate with these inquiries? Surely by your own logic if there is no co-operation then there’s no point of an inquiry? Utter bollocks obviously, an inquiry can investigate without witnesses.

    On a final point the next time you’re about to talk about Ethnic Cleansing (the poor white christian majority getting ethnically cleansed by, um, white Christians) try to think of the thousands of dead and over one million displaced in Rwanda. MOPEry? You bet your balls. Your as oppressed as Tutsi Rwandans, Balkan Serbs, Kosovo Albanians etc. in your own tiny head. No-one else on earth outside the Ulster Prod would believe it.

  • pfhl

    Nice post nmc and i enjoy the fact you point out progress on this issue should not depend on proven liars. An independant body examining evidence is what we all should want.

  • willowfield

    The Dubliner

    Good point. But it also means that war criminals were elected to run the State.

    That is the logic of their position, but they know that any statement about a “war” will never follow through on that logic, hence they can confidently agitate for such a statement.

  • pfhl

    Ulsterfan

    I believe some would as many are disillusioned with sinn fein now and may wish to face the actions they have taken over the past thirty years. I dont believe thay all would but an independant commision could also examine evidence and come to their own conclusions and le the families come to theirs

  • pfhl

    Funny old place, the North.

    We have argued many times before but once again i would like to point out Collins also sanctioned many brutal killings. Don’t for one second suggest those in the south were always reasoned and completely right compared to them murdering northerners. Collins inspired much more than Pinochet however.

  • steve

    Photographs don’t count, then?

    Opting to be interned/imprisoned in the PIRA wing doesn’t count?

    Negotiating with Whitelaw on behalf of the PIRA doesn’t count?

    “The missing years” don’t count?

    no thats all anecdotal evidence, it only proves he had contact with the IRA something he hardly denies

  • kensei

    “We have argued many times before but once again i would like to point out Collins also sanctioned many brutal killings. Don’t for one second suggest those in the south were always reasoned and completely right compared to them murdering northerners. Collins inspired much more than Pinochet however.”

    Let’s not forget Dev here. “The people have no right to do wrong”, “extremist support” and a Civil War.

  • PeaceandJustice

    nmc – “Your as oppressed as Tutsi Rwandans, Balkan Serbs, Kosovo Albanians etc. in your own tiny head. No-one else on earth outside the Ulster Prod would believe it.”

    Obviously you’re in denial. Plus it’s not good propaganda to talk about the murder and ethnic cleansing of Protestants. In your world it wouldn’t do for the truth to come out. Bad PR.

    http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/httpatangledwebsquarespace/exodus.html

    But as regards the truth, our day will come …

  • steve

    P&J;you could have atleast linked to the half dozen threads on this web site about this very same topic.

    Its been more than aptly argued into submision that Derry was not ethnic cloeansing it was protestants leaving rather than suffering the indignity of being treated like a catholic east of the Bann

  • PeaceandJustice

    steve – “Its been more than aptly argued into submision that Derry was not ethnic cloeansing it was protestants leaving …”

    Oh well, if the reasonable Pan-Nationalists on here say it wasn’t ethnic cleansing then it must be true! Yeah, right.

    18,000 Protestants forced to move from their homes – of course it was ethnic cleansing. But you know that admitting it wouldn’t look good for the Sinn Fein IRA death squad members now in Government. Sinn Fein IRA don’t really want the truth. They want an edited version of it.

  • Steve

    18,000 Protestants forced to move from their homes – of course it was ethnic cleansing. But you know that admitting it wouldn’t look good for the Sinn Fein IRA death squad members now in Government. Sinn Fein IRA don’t really want the truth. They want an edited version of it.

    Posted by PeaceandJustice on Jan 15, 2008 @ 11:07 PM

    P&J;the only ones really able to bring day to day prssure to any signifigant pressure to any major population was the ruc and their alphabet soup murder gangs. When you have the helicopters and sarasens its hardly reasonable to accuse the opposition of over the top pressure

    The prods in their infinate wisdom just stuck their collective noses in the air and followed them upwind from the nast taigs.

    P&J;your position is just wrong it was the only major city with a taig majority and their delicate constitutions just could not handle the reality post gerrymandering. imagine the shock of being the minority with out power instead of the majority with no intention of sharing

  • Harry Flashman

    *The prods in their infinate wisdom just stuck their collective noses in the air and followed them upwind from the nast taigs.

    P&J;your position is just wrong it was the only major city with a taig majority and their delicate constitutions just could not handle the reality post gerrymandering.*

    As the Derry thread seems to have disappeared off the horizon I will post an excerpt from my last post to show up the idiocy of your insulting portrayal of my protestant fellow citizens.

    “Derry prods lived in isolation in the west bank, they had one bridge linking them to the rest of their community, if that fell they were all alone (’cutting off the bridge’ might seem ludicrous but throughout the ‘70s there was an extensive system of booms placed in the Foyle around the bridge by the army to prevent it being attacked, there were no fewer than ten army sangars near and on the bridge). Meanwhile their businesses were collapsing in a pile of rubble day in day out, their neighbours were being shot regularly and their schoolchildren had to traverse riots and gun battles to get to and from school.

    In this situation many prods felt it was time to pack their bags and go, I sincerely doubt that one single prod ever said to his family, “You know what, I’ve suddenly noticed all these Catholics living around us and I don’t like them, I further don’t like the minor reforms of the local franchise, so why don’t we leave our homes, our churches, our schools, our family’s graves and our social clubs and move to some grim housing estate in Lincoln Courts or Nelson Drive”.

    It’s nonsense and you know it. ”

    If you are a real Republican steve you should know better than to use ugly, ignorant, sectarian stereotypes about your fellow Irishmen.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Harry,

    I think the above is fair post. Some are over stating the case of there being a deliberate republican policy of ‘ethnic cleansing’ and some under stating the case by claiming the Prods own prejudices led them to leave. There may be a small element of truth in both points of view but it looks like a sensible ‘lifestyle’ choice to leave given the horrendous conditions and hostile environment on their doorstep.

  • Steve

    Harry
    Why didnt the Catholics leave as well? Those exact same conditions were affecting them as well. And the Catholics didnt even have the police and army in their pocket to kill the really uppity huns.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To Steve – You should be able to answer your own question. The Roman Catholics didn’t leave as there wasn’t a campaign of ethnic cleansing directed towards them. It was McG’s murder gangs that carried out most of the bombings and shootings. But of course in your world, the only significant thing that happened in Londonderry happened on one particular Sunday in 1972.

    Even today the small number of Protestants still left in the Fountain are subjected to intimidation – often by youths wearing Celtic tops who have been brought up on a diet of hatred.

    You are a sectarian bigot who can’t admit the wrongs done to the Protestant community by your friends in the Sinn Fein IRA murder gangs.

    Let us know when you take the blinkers off. Until then, it’s a waste of time discussing it with you.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PeaceandJustice,

    If you are a Unionist how can you remain loyal to a country whose government ( and all main oppostion parties ) insist that your community should be forced into a coalition with a party who organised the ethnic cleansing against your community?

  • RepublicanStones

    ethnic cleansing in Derry????? me bollocks !

    there was ethnic cleansing in Ireland alright, but it took place a long long time before the ‘troubles’ !